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Add-ons and Mods
Melckycharms
Member Posts: 24
If anyone here has played World of Warcraft for any substantial period of time, then you know of all the different mods and add-ons you can get for your interface. I think I am the only one who believes this but I hope they don't have add-ons for WAR because, in my opinion, some of those mods out there can give someone a slight edge. Personally, I never used the mods because I didn't want to hassle with them. Now I've seen plenty of mods through websites and my friends/family and some of them are pretty nifty - - like many different counters up on screen, healing tools, etc. I don't think mods and such like that are beneficial from the game, but take away from the experience. One almost has to use said mods and add-ons to be "effective" and I think its not fair. Now I know they are free and anyone can use them, but I don't like the idea of downloading third-party software onto my computer. I think the interface and tools should be useful in the game, that the developers should implement, not rely on outside sources.
Now that I'm done rambling about add-ons, I hope you see my point:
Add-ons/Mods = bad/negative
I would like to know the thoughts of everyone else.
Comments
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Player Modifications in MMORPGs
by Hasani Davis, MMORPG.COM
Editorial by Hasani Davis.
A growing concern amongst the online gaming community is the debate between Mod uses, just how bad is Moding for competitive gaming?
The encyclopedia defines cheating in online computer games as; a broad category of activities, all of which are generally regarded as modifying the game experience in a way that gives a player an unfair advantage over the other players.
This sounds like a Mod to me. So if Moding online has the same definition as cheating online, why is it that we have taken them to such an extent as we do in our PvP games?
I think back to when I first started gaming and Mods were simply viewed as wrong. By changing or adding files you make the game play easier to fit your own style. But as time passed and more games came out the lines began to blur as to what was considered an acceptable UI or Mod. It did not take long before Moding got out of control in second generation games either, with Diablo 2 and Anarchy Online respectively. In AO, player tampering of pre-set controls was called cheating and became so rampant it led to the game's demise. In Diablo 2 the program was kept on the client side so players were able to adjust their own characters to what ever advantage they could desired.
World of Warcraft hit the market in 2004 and allowed full macro, scripting, Mod and UI customization. To some this is the straw that broke the camels back. Blizzard, fresh off the heels of having Diablo 2 ruined by not being able to police cheating, began work on WoW. Instead of spending its resources towards what ruined their last game, the envelope was pushed further. This new game allowed for easier changing of pre-set game mechanics, (pretty much what was considered cheating in first generation games), and it is now considered to be okay. WoW allows you to easily write scripting code into macros. Where as first generation games such as DAoC and EQ had simple macro commands (say one line of speech or do one /slash command such as /dance /camp) WoW has allowed for: multiple actions, pauses, variables, /slash commands, and character skills to all be used in one macro. For an example in DAoC you could write a macro that would target the same target as someone in your party such as: /assist Legolis and you would target Bob. This was as far as you could take the macro. The button would not make you attack, you had to do that yourself, and you had no clue what Bob was targeting you had to find it yourself. In WoW, you can write a macro which will target the same opponent as someone in your group and say out loud "I am attacking Bob." A large red glowing circle would appear below Bob's feet to indicate he is the target and his picture would flash on your screen. This same macro will also use your strongest attack if Bob is over 70% life. If you do not have enough power to use your strongest attack, the very same macro will perform an auto attack. The same macro will also perform an automatic hamstring attack if Bob is moving too fast. Last but not least, if Bob is under 20% life your macro will use a finishing move, quite a change eh?
This may sound outrageous to some people who come from other games, but that's just the normal way things are in Warcraft. Third generation gamers have softened with these third generation games. In fact it is a rule in most raid guilds that you have to use a certain collection of Mods in order to be allowed into the guild. Let's talk about Decursive, may the MMORPG gods forgive me for I have said the D word. While this seems like a simple function in WoW, I will explain it to the general public. Decursive is a Mod that automatically removes any negative effect your character is capable of removing from every person in your forty man raid. You not only don't have to target the people, or check the icon to see if it is something you can cure, you just have to be alive and have mana to cast it. If it is a new spell and you do not know if your class can remove it or not, this macro will bypass your knowledge and make the decision for you. Forget knowing your class; forget making smart choices and tactical decisions, we will let the script do it.
My stance is that any type of Moding should not be allowed in PvP games of the future. We have tried the first generation games without them, tried the second generation ones with them, we should be taking what we have learned from the past 15 years of MMORPGs and know that Moding is bad for competitive gaming.
Point blank a Mod gives an advantage. Advantages should not be something you have to write, or download. An advantage should be based on tactics and conscious decisions you make while playing a game. While this advantage is mild in a PvE game as you are only going against the environment, it becomes huge in a PvP situation.
Let's take something as simple as User Interface Moding. I had someone tell me that UI Mods are okay because they are just helping to fix poor programming and speed up things that are tedious. In Warcraft you have eighty buttons to press. Remember back in DAoC when your healer had around forty spells you could cast, but what made each healer different was they had the ten spells that they put on their MAIN BAR? Yes, your effectiveness was boosted by the decision of what spells you where mainly going to use in combat and you would sometimes change your spell bar based upon what situation you are going into. In WoW you can not only have eighty buttons, you can make it so that icons will black out when you cant use them and flash when ready to use again. You can also change the UI to make a reminder pop up in big flashing letters for you to use certain skills, or alert you when hostile spells are being cast at you. Remember when you used to pretend to cast an offensive spell to fake someone out? Nope, that won't fool that scripting. You will be able to identify more information, and make better decisions (if not have the decisions made for you) by having the right macro equipped.
Giving someone even a fraction of a second advantage by using a Mod snowballs into an avalanche in fast paced player vs. player combat. Can you imagine if they had Moding in other player vs. player games and used the same excuses such as "it just helps with poor programming" and "it helps me with tedious things?" Why don't we change Ryu's Shoryuken to automatically execute whenever you press the jab button? It's the programmer's fault that they made it too similar to his fireball and thus hard to use right? Why stop there? Perhaps in Madden we should have Mods that black out covered receivers so you can't throw to them and only make complete passes. It's "tedious" to look at the receivers and coverages. Or how about one button that will pick the perfect juke moves to avoid tacklers instead of having to pick one of the eight to press? You would never in a million years see Mods added to these competitive games, so why should we accept this in our PvP genre? I feel it's time we draw a line in the sand and make competitive games against other players "competitive." Allowing players to make their own changes to games is a Pandora's Box waiting to spiral out of control. Remember, you can't moderate what happens on the client side of a game, only server side.
Look at Mods like steroids. You only harm yourself if you use them to put on a little bulk, but what happens when you use them to gain a slight advantage while playing baseball or football? That fly ball turns into a home run; that tackle at the one yard line turns into a touchdown. It makes you half a second faster to finish first instead of third. The people who are against you are forced to work twice as hard as you just to be on the same level, their only alternative will be to use them too.
Moving forward I hope that the next generation of MMORPG developers and the RPG community as a whole take a long look at the state of our games. Not only do we support role playing games like Final Fantasy Seven where the characters no longer have roles and can multi-class to get any ability; we also have games that aren't actually being played by the players anymore. You're not deciding which level of heal you should cast on the warrior to save his life and seeing if you have that heal ready, nope, that perfect heal is going to be cast for you, no need to make a decision. Lets hope that new games on the horizon like Age of Conan and EA Mythic's W.A.R take steps to bring back some of the player skill and strategy that seemed to have vanished in the current day of online competitive gaming.
What ever happened to the skill and tactical decisions made by a player, along with the roll of the dice, being the deciding factor in your success? I am not a FPS fan; I am an MMORPG fan, so why do we tell people who want things fair again to go play Counterstrike? We should be more like the other communities and desire intense competitive play when we face each other, instead of resorting to shortcuts to make game play easier for ourselves.
After 20 years of online gaming is this what we have come to?
MAN! what a great and well written editorial, that guy deserves a nobel prize.
they didnt use scripting or ad ons in daoc and really only allowed you minor modifications to the user interface.
I have never seen a game more out of control with add ons scripting and mods than world of warcraft though.
I highly dobut we will see much mod use allowed in war since its a pvp based game afterall. And I will say write it down and take it to the bank that you will see ZERO scripting allowed.
I will only agree with that editorial if a game can promise me every feature in a UI.
The reason why mods came about is because most UI in MMOs were lacking... both in imagination and functionality.
What games like WoW have taught us is that mods are a double edged sword. While almost EVERY CHANGE blizzard has made to its default UI has come from created mods... we also so mods get way out of hand.
Where the editorial went off track is that we should not shun mods and go back to "the good ol' days" which frankly were not that good from a UI stand point. We need a middle path which ultimately will lead to functionality and fairness.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I have played both scripting (WOW) and non-scripting games (DAOC) and i agree with your premise (mods are bad). However, there is one flaw in your idea's
"Look at Mods like steroids. You only harm yourself if you use them to put on a little bulk, but what happens when you use them to gain a slight advantage while playing baseball or football? That fly ball turns into a home run; that tackle at the one yard line turns into a touchdown. It makes you half a second faster to finish first instead of third. The people who are against you are forced to work twice as hard as you just to be on the same level, their only alternative will be to use them too."
The problem is that it’s a macro (no pun intended) problem as opposed to a micro problem. Large companies like EA/Mythic are in this to make money and not to make great games for us to play. the other problem is that a company like Blizzard is driving the market with its large base (9 million subscribers x 10.99 through 14.99 a month) and rightly or wrongly other companies want a piece of "the market".
Further, the hard core member (a relatively small percentage of the over all game population) do not drive the market, but rather it’s the other 85% of the population. As you have stated, there is a drive to the bottom much like the Multi national Corporations do in looking for new markets, the casual gamer wants ways to keep up either through making up in loss time (gold farmers) and or short cuts for making it easier (macro's).
Much in the same way that Bonds was jealous of Big Mac and Sosa in 1998 or football players who need the Roids just to stay in the league both want an edge. The real problem of course that for every Bond there are 10 Melvin Mora's. Thus, even though some hard core members use the macros or not does not matter, the real issue is that to stay competitive the casual gamers have to, just to stay on the field. And at 12.95 a month it is better for a company to leave the macro's to have the regular player the same satisfaction that the big boys get.
An easy way to think about is this way:
if you are an average gamer with 25$ extra dollar a month but only a limited amount to play time, would you play a non macro game (DAOC: and I am using it here just to stay on topic) where you would have a harder chance to keep up 6 years into the game or (WOW: again used just to stay on topic) where you can have 250g and free macro's to make you more competitive faster. And then answer this question from the DEVELOPER and STOCK HOLDER side and tell me what you would say.
While i understand that some of you might take umbrage with my thoughts just remember that most of us that read these forums are not your average gamers.
Finally I would like to say that I agree with your premise, and favor games that do not have macros; however I also understand the pressures of trying to keep up with gamers who can play 30+ hours a week and i feel that we will see more macros before we start see less (unless a company can make more money from not putting macros in the game).
There is no UI out there that can cater to everyone. While I agree certain mod's like Decursive went to far they were not the rule but the exception.
Blizzard also did a great job at cracking down on any API functions they thought allowed mod/ui designers to violate the spirit of the game. Today the WoW API is pretty much strictly locked down tight by Blizzard. IMHO Blizzard was loose in the beginning because they wanted to see where mod designers would go with the API.
Most of it was good and some of it was bad. Blizzard learned from the bad and then took care of it by removing features they thought were a violation of the spirit of the game and how they felt they wanted players to interact with the game. As I said before today the WoW API is not even remotely as open and loose as it was before and this is in thanks to Blizzard being very pro-active.
Also please note that when WoW shipped it's UI was pretty spartan and basic. It wasn't until player made bar/UI mods, SCT, CTRAID and few other player mods became extremely popular that Blizzard started putting in these concepts into their own UI.
MMO and technologies around them are all about progress. If everyone was simple and easy to cater too we'd all still be playing MUD's. People want more custom features from their MMO game's UI that cater to their play style. Now while the default UI's of most games can provide some of things people want it they usually more often then not are lacking in a lot of other areas.
This is where player made UI mods come into play. As long as they are well controlled and well maintained it should not be a big hassle. Mod's have proven to be at the for front of UI innovation and even Blizzard knows this because so many of the current WoW UI features were all borrowed from old mods and were implemented into WoW.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
call me hardcore... but they are buttons. read them and click on them its not too hard for me.
But I say down with Mods. ALL of them. Its pandoras box and there is no real stop to it once you let it start.
Thats my opinion based off of my small 25 years of online gaming.
I really hope that they dont allow macros into WAR..
So basically for a game to not allow any mods what so ever they are going to have to listen to their customers and add any "acceptable" upgrades to the ui, this way all players have the same advantage.
I remember way back in UO, that all mods where bannable until they were accapted by OSI (stopped playing not too long after EA took them over so dunno how that developed). But still Certain mods did give you a advantage, like UOAssist (which you had to pay for your lifetime subs)
So what these developers are going to have to do is take "advice" from the customers on what things should be added, then decide if they should/could be added in the next patch.
So if a game UI is specifically limiting to a class you play impeding your ability to compete with other classes in the game you are fine with that.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Sounds good in theory, especially with the WAR devs... but will be horrible in practice. UI modification is normally extremely low on the patch list. You could look at 3 - 6 months before a UI change... That would be unacceptable in most communities.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
The guy assumes you're cheating when you use a mod and I'm sorry but that is not a basis for an argument.
Mods are there to make the UI fit the player more, nothing more.
Also, MMOs are not about skill, learn that and live it. You pick a elf, graceful, fluid mover, agile you might say... he dodges attacks. Half-giants or ogres, strong, tall, big as a house and could pick up one given half the chance. Those are not player skills... any semblance of skill has nothing to do with how the player jumps and strafes around because the game is about the character, not person controlling it.
Until you actually wear 200lbs of armor and have to lift a 20lb 2h sword and swing it a thousand times a day all the while dodging arrows and other attackers while jumping around acting like a high school production of the Nut Cracker you ain't got any "skill".
Addons/mods give the player a more comfortable UI to play the game with. Everyone has access to it.
Addons, mods and UI skins are here to stay, get used to it.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
The guy assumes you're cheating when you use a mod and I'm sorry but that is not a basis for an argument.
Mods are there to make the UI fit the player more, nothing more.
Also, MMOs are not about skill, learn that and live it. You pick a elf, graceful, fluid mover, agile you might say... he dodges attacks. Half-giants or ogres, strong, tall, big as a house and could pick up one given half the chance. Those are not player skills... any semblance of skill has nothing to do with how the player jumps and strafes around because the game is about the character, not person controlling it.
Until you actually wear 200lbs of armor and have to lift a 20lb 2h sword and swing it a thousand times a day all the while dodging arrows and other attackers while jumping around acting like a high school production of the Nut Cracker you ain't got any "skill".
Addons/mods give the player a more comfortable UI to play the game with. Everyone has access to it.
Addons, mods and UI skins are here to stay, get used to it.
You DO know that I am Hasani Davis and this is my editorial right?
And if you read what I wrote and actually hear the message I am bringing. Your mods are ok if you want them in your game. However, mods and scripting have no place for a balanced PvP and RvR game. If you want to run a script to cast a reactionary spell or alert you when to use an ability ... and your playing WoW EQ or Vanguard.. thats fine and dandy. That half a sec you save by using this mod however is a large advcantage when you are in a competitive mmo enviornment... which is what war is. a Half sec lead may as well be a mile headstart in a race.
A balanced and competitive non stop no shortcuts gaming enviornment..... sounds like heaven to some, but sounds like WAR to me.
-Hasani-
You have not answered my question.
Also if a mod creates an extra tool bar on the screen... you feel that is cheating?
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
First of all, I think mods that allow you to change the layout of your UI should be allowed. Not only do colorblind people need this in some games, but lay-out can be very important to people. Some people like one big square of buttons and others like a single thin line.
I personally prefer to whipe out as much as possible of the original ui, leaving me with an impressive field of view.
I've never been a fan of macro's. Macro play allows you to do things that would physically be completely impossible ( switch to defstanc-shield-shield reflect-switch weapons, switch to x stance ). I have however, one exception to this.
In WoW, when I still played, Intervene was a skill where you had to target a player, press button and it would attack the mob that was attacking that player. Nobody used (uses probably, knowing the average skill of Warrior tanks ) it, because it was actually pretty hard to select the players. I've never had issues with manual selection of mobs, in fact I rarely use tab, but players..
So when I found out about a macro that would target the mobs target and then cast intervene, after which it selected the mob and started autoattacking, I was really happy and it improved a skill that was imho, reasonably broken.
(to those that tell me I need to l2click players...I'd like to refer you to this thread : http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/142107 )
The other reason is to reduce the space taken. ( e = sunder armor, shift + e = devastate)
So in certain situations it's definitely a positive change, but I admit, that's only when the game itself is slightly flawed.
"ANY advantage.......
not some, not half, not situational ...........ANY
Adding taunt to that same intervene button was also pretty brilliant :P
I think UI mods that add extra tool bars are cheating, it makes the gaems easier to play..
You have a tool bar, you can only fit a certain amount of skills/spells/healing potions on them.. so you go and add another tool bar. oh wait now you can fit the rest of your spells/skills on the screen where as the average person using standard UI does not have this so has to click shift F1 to get to the next tool bar or whatever..
sure they are great and i have used UI mods before but really thinknig about it... its cheating
Hmm. Ya I dont think you will have UI's that add more bars in war. Part of the strategy they want in the game is picking your spells that will go on your bar BEFORE you leave out to go to combat. Your bar are a set legnth because certain skills and abilities are supposed to take up more room than others because of their power and worth.
So this pretty much kills this whole debate on this thread
The definition of cheating, is that you gain an impossible advantage over your enemies/fellow players
cheat play_w("C0263400") (ch
t)
Everyone has access to the mods, so the people using them are in fact, not cheating. It only takes 10 minutes of asking on aforum to obtain all the information you need to do the same. It's there to take, it's your own fault if you don't.
The only reason why you treat it as cheating is by principle and fact of the matter is, sometimes principals are wrong.
What I don't respect is you self promotion of your own editorial which is rather narcissistic.
Peace out.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I think he was just messing around lol
as for the person who said its available for everyone to downlaod and use..
in sports drugs are there for everyone to use .. so your saying its ok for say footbal players to take performance drugs ?
Do you really think that's an argument ?
Both sports and games ar surrounded by the rules of their governing authority.
In Sports, Mods are not allowed
In Games, depending on which one, (lets generalize, WoW ) Mods'are allowed and even supported ( notice the supported part)
I don't happen to agree with the point... but it is valid.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
but its against the rules..
if it wernt then yeah sure its their own fault for not taking the drugs or whatever..
if the game rules state no mods UI or whatever... then using UI mods would be against the ruels.. so they would be cheating..
Now if the game states UI mods can be used then they should point people to the UI mods that are available.