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Carebears vs. PvP'rs - The Final Battle
FatalFX
Vizual F/X Studios Community DirectorMember Posts: 21
Discovered an interesting thread on Ten Ton Hammer forums about the FFA PvP potential in 'Crusades' for a situation to escalate into an all-out showdown between Carebears and PvP'rs.
Quote: Rocinante, Ten Ton Hammer thread:
"...after reading the forums and FAQ - I realized that there will be no effective way to blockade runs in and out of planets and galaxies because there are no jumpgates - it's all freespace! On top of this, is the fact that everywhere outside of the homeworld is open PvP space, but yet the resources needed for players to colonize and build Outposts into 'Civs' exists exponentially but again - in PvP space! "
"On that thought, Carebear players will need to form large guilds in order to protect their 'Civs' and we all know how much time they spend crafting. Thus, they will most likely have the best crafted items which the PvP'rs will enjoy looting - and that will force the Carebears to unite and fight. This could very well be gaming history in the sense that it may escalate into major confrontations between the two. PvP'rs won't survive and have the best weapons, planetary defenses, and spacecraft if they stop feeding off of the Carebears, and Carebears won't tolerate being attacked everywhere they go. Thus we have a Yin & Yang of Carebear vs. PvP'r in a final showdown - and it's probably long overdue."
Such a final showdown between the two long established player bases gets me thinking about which side would come out on top? For indeed, they are the 'Yin and Yang' of MMO gamers. They depend upon one another for resources - like a food chain. In an ever expanding universe, with FFA PvP, the setting is ripe for micro and macro clan domination. Perhaps this score could be settled?
Would the community like to see support for such a confrontation or leave it to the gamers to evolve?
Comments
Most carebares do not dislike PvP a lot even :gasp: enjoy guildwars areanas. What they dislike is pointless PvP, which city defense/invasion isn't.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
PvPers and PvEers do not depend on each other at all, actually they should be playing two different games.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Gotta hand it to the carebears, they always win. Whoever whines the loudest always wins.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
unfortunately this is true...definitely works on ruining AoC
Your joking right? I'd say both parties cry the same, just about different things. While PvEers may complain about PvP things that affect them, PvPers fall into the endless "balance" cries. "This class is OP", or "This skill is OP", or "This combo is OP"(see the pattern here?). I would almost venture to say PvPers cry the most.
What I would really like to know is why PvPers call PvEers "Carebears". It's pretty funny that because they like a different aspect of a game than you, they are suddenly inferior and a nuisance.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
No, this is just going to end up like Eve. It's too easy for someone you don't know to screw everything up, so people form a not-friendly-shoot-it policy (NBSI, B for blue). This doesn't favor carebears at all but encourages high paranoia.
Its better to just claim players will fight players.....if they happen to be PvE or PvP fans have not much to do with the outcome in Crusades (wich sounds like a relly interesting MMO). A complax MMO can really change a player.
Alright: If I am termed 'Carebear' - which aside from being used as an insult usually, also apparently is used to describe non-PVP players in general - why would I be interested in an Free-for-all PvP game in the first place?
It's like asking vegans to partake in a steak eating contest and wonder who would finish first. This whole issue is intellectual bankruptcy.
Your joking right? I'd say both parties cry the same, just about different things. While PvEers may complain about PvP things that affect them, PvPers fall into the endless "balance" cries. "This class is OP", or "This skill is OP", or "This combo is OP"(see the pattern here?). I would almost venture to say PvPers cry the most.
What I would really like to know is why PvPers call PvEers "Carebears". It's pretty funny that because they like a different aspect of a game than you, they are suddenly inferior and a nuisance.
I agree they both cry. But carebears cry louder so they get their way. Many times those who start to cry and complain the loudest are assumed to be carebears. If a person dresses up like a clown, puts on makeup, and makes balloon animals they are probably going to be called a clown right?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
"Carebear" is a term used by old school MMO elitists. It's an attempt to insult the new breed of MMO players that mostly WoW is responsible for. This is why they hate WoW and attempt to drag it in the mud as much as possible. "Carebears" are stupid and don't have a clue to what makes a MMO good. All hail the good old days when UO was king. Evolution is evil! Down with the infidel WoW!
I have to agree. Most games I played dedicated PvErs and dedicated PvPers didn't mix at all. People that prefer to swap between the two in my observation do reasonably well with both groups but then again they are the middle ground.
Regarding the OP, I think "carebear" component (as much as I dislike the label but it does exist) will simply avoid the game by rank and file. End of story and I don't think I am off the target.
I'm a carebear, I enjoy crafting and I enjoy PbP! What I don't enjoy are 8 out of 10 of these so called "hardcore pvpers" would turn tails and run at the first sign of resistance from their victim.
It's the hardcore vs. casual (carebear, if you will) argument that is the root of a lot of friction and vitriol in the MMO genre. Why people simply can't understand that everyone has their own preferred style I will never know. I personally prefer casual PvE while sometimes dipping into PvP but I resent being called a 'carebear' because of my choice of playstyle. This is by no means a generalisation, but the majority of people who scream carebear are egotistical, overly competetive and obnoxious types that are the very personalities that make me avoid PvP in the first place.
i put a lot of pvpers into the care bear catergory because a lot of pvpers aren't willing to risk losing something when they die.
I like how they act like carebears and pvpers won't unite.
Carebears provide the work, pvpers provide the protection.
Now with 57.3% more flames!
I totally disagree, Look at games like Eve crafters depend on pvpers to kill players so the defeated players will buy more gear and Pvpers depend on pve/crafters to make the gear that they will wear and thier victims will wear. Its a cycle pvp games work this way everyone needs everyone else or the whole system is thrown out of whack.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
I disagree. Carebears cry the least but their cries are more "legit" to developers. PvPers cry about all sorts of nonsense about balancing, exploits, and having rules get in the way of ganking / griefing. Some PvP guys have the nerve to whine about not being able to gank carebears whenever they want. They hate the restriction of ganking only in zones where people expect to be ganked. Developers don't pay much attention to that except the balancing issues.
PvEers cry abotu the PvP players exploiting spawn locations, rez spots being camped to the point of not even wanting to play, quest mobs stolen during crucial moments in battle, loot being taken etc. These are things that will effect subscriptions if they aren't fixed asap. People will leave a game because of these reasons. People won't leave over class balances.
example: Age of Conan. People complained about gankers killing players as the zoned into a new area. The player would sit defensless while they loaded the new zone and a ganker would get an easy kill. The killing was awy out of hand this way also. So they fixed it, and "griefers" complained.
Griefers are stll able to kill players while they speak to an NPC. they will argue up and down that it is fine to kill someone while they are completely defenseless in this way; saying that it's part of the FFA aspect.
As long as a game tries to cater to all then yes there won't be any final decision.
Let's face it with few exeption most players that claim to be PvP'ers and not "carebears" lie through their teeth. If they were indeed that kind of players they would choose a game that caters to that. Instead they play games that are mainly PvE with a bit of PvP to spice it up.
So far from all the games I have played with the exception of EVE, all so called hard core pvp players just exploit the mechanics of a game to gain an advantage. I haven't seen any of them though survive in games such as EvE and I bet they will just bitch and moan when they start playing darkfall.
So yeah in a sense carebears rule cause the game mechanics support it:P As I said most games are PvE after all.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
I feel that way often now.
I was a PvP'er with UO, I PvP'ed in WoW and tried my hand in EQII for awhile; and found elements in each I liked. The PvE in all the games was awesome by itself, and complicated when I tried to do both (minus EQ2). Trying to mix the two caused me to have a less enjoyable time.
I want to see a strict PvP game come out that doesn't end up sucking liuke Fury did. For right now, I go off shooters for my PvP fix.
I want to see a WoW type of MMO that doesn't force me to Raid or PvP to get decent "heroic quality" gear.
Well let's put it this way. Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.
Pretty much what you can expect from this game. FFA PVP is a classic way to say "have fun while it lasts because it won't be around long".
I see it all the time in Eve where they have a halfway effective balance between the two factions. The pvpers want more restrictions on safe space not realizing that upsetting the balance will just doom themselves.
So you can forget the final battle, if needed resources are not available in the safe areas the creators will just ignore the game, hence the pvpers will be left with noone to fight but themselves.
So if I understand right, the crafters are forced to PvP or associate with PvPers to defend their stuff, but the PKs are not in any way forced to craft or associate with crafters, because they can loot any item they want in PvP? Yeah, that's balanced.
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This is what I meant when i said " PvPers and PvEers" should be playing different games.
FFA pvp is all on how you look at it, if the game is designed for pvp it works Ex: planetside wwiionline 10six
We need more PURE pvp games, with zero pve.
*note: they dont have to be fps, its just the only ones i could think of with zero pve
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
This is what I meant when i said " PvPers and PvEers" should be playing different games.
FFA pvp is all on how you look at it, if the game is designed for pvp it works Ex: planetside wwiionline 10six
We need more PURE pvp games, with zero pve.
I wish they would do that, and then perhaps PvE focused MMO's will stay balanced for PvE instead of being destroyed for 1 on 1 PvP.
Hi Ciredric,
The problem you mention is one of the reasons we wanted to discuss this issue with gamers. While we are in production, we want to build a solution that makes for fun PvP. One thing to keep in mind, games such as DaoC still have a fun crowd playing RvR. With the open-ended space and solar systems in Crusades, the typical route blockade / jumpgate style camping will not be effective because players may fly in any direction to exit an area. Planet orbits might get camped, however, but in the case of a well defended city below - the bombardment process will take time. Landing and deploying troops will require excellent raid-style organization to make effective. The bottom line to any good PvP - lies in why we are doing this? The answer is resources and control. Even if a world is over-thrown 'Necromonger' style (I.e. 'Chronicles of Riddick') the inhabitants may go elsewhere, far far away - and find even greater resources.
I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your thoughts and suggestions. This thread has provided some interesting feedback, and I know that our management reads these threads. Don't forget there is an open door on our community forums if anyone would like to add to the wish list, or discuss other aspects of gameplay.
Hi Ciredric,
The problem you mention is one of the reasons we wanted to discuss this issue with gamers. While we are in production, we want to build a solution that makes for fun PvP. One thing to keep in mind, games such as DaoC still have a fun crowd playing RvR. With the open-ended space and solar systems in Crusades, the typical route blockade / jumpgate style camping will not be effective because players may fly in any direction to exit an area. Planet orbits might get camped, however, but in the case of a well defended city below - the bombardment process will take time. Landing and deploying troops will require excellent raid-style organization to make effective. The bottom line to any good PvP - lies in why we are doing this? The answer is resources and control. Even if a world is over-thrown 'Necromonger' style (I.e. 'Chronicles of Riddick') the inhabitants may go elsewhere, far far away - and find even greater resources.
I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your thoughts and suggestions. This thread has provided some interesting feedback, and I know that our management reads these threads. Don't forget there is an open door on our community forums if anyone would like to add to the wish list, or discuss other aspects of gameplay.
I personally think a FFA PvP game such as Crusades has a brilliant chance of succeeding where previous attempts have failed. It will fantastic to play an mmo which finally takes advantage of the fact that it is being played and shared by other players unlike previous mmos such as WoW, EQ2, Vanguard etc which basicly play like a single player game and isolate the players from each other.
It looks as though Crusades could easily bring the "Massively Multiplayer" aspect back into online rpgs which is long overdue. If a player wants to be left alone while they do their own thing then the question has to be asked "Why are they logging into an online game populated by thousands of real people?". In a well designed MMO everyone will have a purpose and a role to fill. The "carebears" will want to seek a protected and safe life and to do that they should co-operate with other like-minded people to achieve this. If you want something to happen in an online game then it should not just be handed to you on plate......you should have to work for it! Otherwise it just isnt worth having. Thats why nearly every mmo around at the moment feels so meaningless. All you ever do is chase levels which doesnt mean anything. What about a purpose or a goal? What about doing something that effects the gameworld your character is "living" in?
Just look at real life for your inspiration! Are you safe and immune to danger in real life? Is there some invisible force which stops people from interacting with each other properly? As I am sat here typing this at work (naughty me) there is nothing stopping someone from coming into the office and attacking me is there. However if someone did then they would have to face the consequences of their actions. We didnt always live in a civilised society ya know......lots of people still dont! This can happen in a game world too.
So as other people have already suggested, the "carebears" would have to employ the more violently active players to fight off the more nasty minded players and keep them safe. In return the "helpful" PvPers will be provided with money, a base, ships, armour, weapons etc. Equally the "nasty" PvPers will eventually have to face the reality that by attacking the "carebears" they have now become targets for the "helpful" PvPers and will be forced to band together and form their own "carebear" communities or forever be on the run. Of course all of these people will be able to play the game in their own particular way just as we all live real life in our own particular way.
Of course by now its pretty obvious that the terms "carebear" and "PvPer" become irrelevant. The game has now become a simulation of real life and just as in real life these terms dont really apply.
So yeah FatalFX I really hope Crusades manages to pull it off. Please dont pay any attention to people who say that FFA PvP cant work because they are only basing that judgement on other games that have tried it and failed (most of which have been level based and designed purely for PvE anyway) which is extremely narrow minded. I think LOTS of people would love to play a realistic game like Crusades and if it is done well it will easily make all the restrictive themepark mmos of the past look like something from the stone age.