Can you think of a viable alternative to RNG?

holdenhamlet

RNG (slang for the random chance something may happen, taken from the computer term "Random Number Generator") is frustrating for players but deemed necessary by devs in every MMO.

MMOs are by definition endless.  To extend playtime, they make certain things difficult to obtain by giving them a low percentage of dropping/happening.

The frustration for players comes in when they end up on the wrong side of the RNG spectrum and never get "that item" despite trying hundreds of times.

BnS recently tried to do somehting unique with dungeon loot where all drops from bosses went up to auction.  While it was true the ones with the deepest pockets were guaranteed a drop, the money spent was split amongst the rest of the members of the party which resulted in a pretty nice "consolation prize".  People still complained about the system (usually complaining about having to wait while people made bids after every boss) and ultimately it doesn't matter in BnS because gold is the most important part of upgrading, not usually drops.

Can you think of a viable alternative to RNG for MMOs?

The best idea I can come up with is a pure token system, where say you run a certain dungeon a certain amount of times and you buy the item you want with the tokens you've collected.

This is already used in some parts of most MMOs, and I'm sure Devs have thought about implementing it throughout games, but the problem is when you set up a task to take 100 times finitely, it becomes tedious.

There is a certain excitement that happens when you think you can get a super rare item by doing something only once, even though most likely it won't happen.

tl:dr; RNG solves a couple of problems for Devs:
1. It makes people run content numerous times, potentially an endless amount of times.  This is important to keep people engaged and playing/paying.
2. It makes that prospect feel less tedious for players because there is "a chance" they get whatever easily, or "this time"

Can you come up with a better solution to these problems?

H0urg1ass

TL;DR: RNG is a perfectly good idea with piss poor implementation in many games.

RNG is supposed to represent the fact that no matter how skilled a character is at something, that everyone can always fail.  Michael Jordan didn't sink every shot.  The best shot in the world misses every once in a while.

The problem is that RNG, in most games, does not scale with character skill... because most MMO's don't characters with a numerical value skill.  How RNG should work is that a character has a skill level in whatever task they are attempting to perform whether it's 0 or whatever the max is.  The higher you get to your max skill level, the lower your chances are for failure, but always at least a small chance.

The same should apply to crafting.  In order to craft a super special sword, you should have a sword crafting skill, an advanced sword crafting skill and maybe even a specialist skill like Dragonbone Sword Crafting Skill. When a player goes to craft one of these, then their chance to craft one is based off of that number.

Also, dungeon loot should never be items.  Dungeon loot should be materials required to craft the items that player want to buy.  This way raiding feeds into crafting.

Dullahan

There's nothing wrong with RNG per se, its the extreme RNG associated with bad grind or trivial monotonous gameplay that is the problem.

The solution is making the process of gaining an item more challenging and fun so that the item is merited without doing the same thing 100 times.

holdenhamlet

"The same should apply to crafting.  In order to craft a super special sword, you should have a sword crafting skill, an advanced sword crafting skill and maybe even a specialist skill like Dragonbone Sword Crafting Skill. When a player goes to craft one of these, then their chance to craft one is based off of that number.

Also, dungeon loot should never be items.  Dungeon loot should be materials required to craft the items that player want to buy.  This way raiding feeds into crafting. "

Sounds pretty interesting but the problem is what happens when someone gets so skilled they make the OP items easily and reliably? 

Keeping the carrot on a stick firmly in front of the player is important for any MMOs longevity.

There's also the issue of restricting the playerbase.  Not everyone likes crafting.  Devs want to avoid excluding potential customers whenever possible.

"There's nothing wrong with RNG per se, its the extreme RNG associated with bad grind or trivial monotonous gameplay that is the problem.

The solution is making the process of gaining an item more challenging and fun so that the item is merited without doing the same thing 100 times."

The problem with making content too challenging is you lock the best stuff behind a skill/gear wall.  An MMO doesn't want to limit it's playerbase to only the skilled.

TERA had a pretty skill-intensive endgame when I played.  Classes were left out, only players with experience were accepted to groups, and there was a pretty steep gear level entry-point to get into any group.

I can't imagine how super-gated content would be in dungeons so difficult they are meant to replace our standard 100-run dungeons.

In an OWPVP scenario, this would be a nightmare as only the most geared/skilled could get the best gear and they would snowball indefinitely.

Also, if you're just relying on the challenge to make items difficult to obtain, what happens when the skilled players get them fast?

Again, we run into the same problem with the carrot on the stick.  Without something meaningful to work towards, players usually quit games.

Quizzical

Wizard 101 actually has quite a nice solution, though it's implemented subtly and not publicized.  Drops from mobs are not independent.  If you need some particular drop for a quest, there's some upper bound on how many kills it will take to get it--and not a terribly large upper bound.

This means that, instead of an exponential distribution for how many kills it takes to get a drop, instead, it's a uniform distribution.  If something should on average take 5 kills, then the number of kills you actually need could be uniformly distributed between 1 and 9.  You still have a 1/9 chance of getting it on your first kill, but if you've gone seven kills without getting the item you need, you've got a 1/2 on your eight attempt and are guaranteed to get it on your ninth if you haven't yet.  Thus, you're still making progress even when you don't get drops.

If, instead, you had a 20% chance of getting the drop each kill, independent of what came before, you still take 5 kills on average to get an item.  But if after 10 kills, you still haven't gotten it, then you're no closer than when you started.  With really bad luck, it could take 30 kills, and that gets frustrating.  It all evens out in the long run, but people don't remember the times they got lucky on the first or second kill, but sure do get mad when it takes five times as long as it should on average.

waynejr2

I love RNG.  What we need to do is get rid of those who can't handle it.  hahaha.

Sovrath

I have to say, after playing BDO, I have come to the conclusion that I actually kind of like it.

I think the ideas of having a certain limit of failure is good.

Melecon

I agree with Hourglass, there is nothing wrong with RNG's it is just how they have been implemented in the past. A system like trove and DMKano has pointed out would still make you "work" for the item but in the end you know eventually you will get that item you are looking for instead of running MC for the last 12 years looking for the second binding   

Sid_Vicious

The problem is solved if the best gear in the game is made by crafters.. the RNG for crafting mats... it works.

I do think that the chance of some ultra rare trinket is pretty cool though but not when everyone deems its necessary to own one.

holdenhamlet

DMKano said:

My personal favorite is RNG with a failure ceiling - after ceiling is reached - you get the roll/drop.

It's what Trove does with it's chaos chests - each time you open one and don't get anything rare - there's a counter that goes up - after a certain number of opened chaos chest without getting any rare loot the counter fills up and BOOM - you get a rare drop.

So instead of letting it go infinitely (some players have HORRIBLE RNG runs where it takes them 1000s of tries) - this effectively eliminates the horrible string of bad luck, as after a set number of fails you are guaranteed something good.

Also having a visual bar - it gives you an idea that you are at least making progress to something good - so it makes a bad string of RNG fails seem like progress towards a guaranteed rare- it's a lot more tolerable just seeing the bar fill up instead of being in complete darkness and feeling - GOD I keep failing to get anything good.


So this keep RNG in place - but introduces a fairness factor that caps the number of a string of failures to something tolerable.


IMO Black Desert Online would benefit from a system like this for its gear enchantment - letting players fail 50+ times is just dumb - the failstack system helps but it needs a ceiling for each enchant level to keep it fair.

Endless open ended RNG can potentially let players keep failing 100s of times - it's beyond lame IMO

That's a pretty good way to take the sting out of RNG.  It still leaves the door open for frustration, though, just not as much.

I'm still curious if there's any way to make an MMO without RNG and the frustration that comes with failing/losing.

holdenhamlet

"Same principal goes into game design - having a obstacles that cause frustration is what actually engages the player and keeps people hooked, if you introduce too much frustation, players leave, if you have too little - players get bored and feel unchallanged and also leave.

So having some RNG, some frustration is KEY to good game design."

I get that point.  It does make it more satisfying when you finally get whatever it is you randomly didn't get all those times.

I guess that is a third "good thing" about RNG.  It gates everyone equally, regardless of skill, and gives everyone the same kind of relief when they get whatever they were looking for.

But obstacles aren't hard to come by in gaming.  It's a much better feeling overcoming a difficult enemy than it is overcoming an RNG system.

We are supposed to be epic heroes in these games.  Epic heroes don't fail or lose.  And they don't play the lottery after killing a dragon to decide if they get its tooth or not.

On the other hand, epic heroes don't slay the legendary dragon 100 times either.

H0urg1ass

Yes, there should be obstacles.

Those obstacles should be diminished with skill rather than RNG by it's own merit.  Attaining the highest level of skill should be very difficult and therefore having a very small chance of failure should be hard to attain.

RNG shouldn't be an island with all other gameplay happening around it.  Player skill, crafting tools, luck trinkets... other things should go into lessening the effects of RNG.  Otherwise you end up with a bullshit as fuck system like BDO where nothing changes the outcome.  The RNG is just the RNG, it doesn't give a crap that you bred two of the highest level horses with each other.

holdenhamlet

H0urg1ass said:

Yes, there should be obstacles.

Those obstacles should be diminished with skill rather than RNG by it's own merit.  Attaining the highest level of skill should be very difficult and therefore having a very small chance of failure should be hard to attain.

RNG shouldn't be an island with all other gameplay happening around it.  Player skill, crafting tools, luck trinkets... other things should go into lessening the effects of RNG.  Otherwise you end up with a bullshit as fuck system like BDO where nothing changes the outcome.  The RNG is just the RNG, it doesn't give a crap that you bred two of the highest level horses with each other.

Like I said, the problem with that idea is what happens when people get super skilled?  They are effectively bypassing the gating system meant to keep them challenged and interested in playing the game.

FlyByKnight

The perfect alternative to RNG is aptitude.

A little RNG isn't bad but the way it's being abused in MMORPGs is unethical.

I don't see what's so wrong about being rewarded for solving something, or being a good at something. Good players deserve to have the good things, and sell those good things to those who aren't as accomplished.

Sovrath

Or else just have a very complex (or difficult) mini-game whereby those who are good at the game can create/achieve greater things. Those that aren't are destined to buy/rely upon those who are.

Dullahan

The crafting solution is the right idea, but it can be applied in many ways without making it about "crafting." Its all about managing expectations. Instead of having a player do something 20 times with a chance of failure each time, give them a more definite objective.

For those who played ArcheAge, Halcyona would be a great example. You have a continual war in the zone. Each time you win, you gain points which can be exchanged for an item that gave you a chance for an upgrade. If it takes 10 wins factoring in the probability, then just make the goal 10 wins instead of having to face RNG each time. You effectively remove failure from the equation.

syriinx

RNG is a necessity for interesting combat for me.  I don't think any game has done it as well as EQ did it.  

I think I'm in the minority, but i loved it in the crafting there too.  I absolutely HATE 100% combine/skill up chances.  EQ could be a little harsh here especially with the skillups, but i dont think a combine should ever be a 100% success chance for the best outcome unless the skill was very far ahead of the item.

Now the f2p games that basically monetize RNG, thats a different story.

H0urg1ass

holdenhamlet said:

H0urg1ass said:

Yes, there should be obstacles.

Those obstacles should be diminished with skill rather than RNG by it's own merit.  Attaining the highest level of skill should be very difficult and therefore having a very small chance of failure should be hard to attain.

RNG shouldn't be an island with all other gameplay happening around it.  Player skill, crafting tools, luck trinkets... other things should go into lessening the effects of RNG.  Otherwise you end up with a bullshit as fuck system like BDO where nothing changes the outcome.  The RNG is just the RNG, it doesn't give a crap that you bred two of the highest level horses with each other.

Like I said, the problem with that idea is what happens when people get super skilled?  They are effectively bypassing the gating system meant to keep them challenged and interested in playing the game.

The game should be challenging, not the RNG system.

Cleffy

I prefer the craft method or the everyone gets 1 good item at end of a dungeon or raid. When you have 6 or so dungeons with 8+ pieces of equipment on a set from each of them. Making them run it more than once per piece seems like a bad time sink.
Personally I like the collect pieces and craft the item you want with a 100% success rate that's done in a couple games.

Quazal.A

Some of the bad press from RNG comes from fact that RNG is used with cashshop items in a lot of games, consider BDO (which i still love but frustrates) people are buying things like horse-reskills, pet skills/ pet breeding, and worst of all dyes.
The fact that your buying an item and still have RNG in place to get the item/colour/skill you want is wrong on many levels. 
Its like buying something from a shop but until you get home you cant be sure you go the right size/fit/colour its wrong,.
Now in terms of drops in dungeons/mobs etc, i have no problem, sometime the problems from drops come from fact that how many times have you been in a group where the BoP item has no-one in group that can use it , or sometimes worst, the item drops that people already have, when a simple piece of code would look at what items have already been gained and remove from table, so any drop can be used by at least one person, but that drop is still random

The other factor is people (especially in bdo) do not know what % chance of x or y happening, if you know that upgrading your weopan has 2% chance but using 30 blackstones gives you 100% success then its upto you to decide to gamble, of course every failure you chance with just 1 stones goes up by base rate of (say) 2% so then every failure is still rewarded with a % chance increase. Its when you have no idea of your RNG success rate that causes problems. Heck you even know what odds on winning lottery, but upgrading that weopan from 19-20 your left in lap of mystery.

Theocritus

RNG made WoW billions of dollars didnt it?

observer

Not all RNG systems are bad.  The ones people despise most are the ones in loot boxes, daily chests, or cash shop items, etc.   These usually require no skill to acquire.

I have no problem with RNG as dungeon or raid loot, or pvp boxes and rewards.  WoW tried the token system (justice & honor points), and it worked pretty well.  GW2, and others, also have it.

A token system actually gives players another choice, so it's not entirely bad.  A mixture of both is ideal.

DKLond

It's trivially easy to think of an alternative, but it's hard to implement one properly.

In my mind, the only way to do it is finite resources and items coupled with true dynamic AI, in a sophisticated simulation of a world. As in, have items exchange hands between NPCs and mobs. Have NPCs, players and mobs build castles, strongholds, dungeons, etc. - dynamically.

Finite resources means resources have intrinsic and tangible value. Once you start "generating" resource nodes and items - you take away the concept of limited resources, and that means taking away their value.

I absolutely hate the concept of items being generated. Right there, it makes them feel less tangible and worthwhile. So, I want all items based on a finite resource system - and I want epic items to be EPIC, meaning they should be handcrafted and evolve into magical items through acts and lore. So, when you finally find that legendary sword of dragon fire - it's the only one in the game. You'll have to fight hard to get it - and once you have it, it can be stolen or taken as a trophy.

That's my approach, anyway.

Reizla

H0urg1ass said:

TL;DR: RNG is a perfectly good idea with piss poor implementation in many games.

RNG is supposed to represent the fact that no matter how skilled a character is at something, that everyone can always fail.  Michael Jordan didn't sink every shot.  The best shot in the world misses every once in a while.

The problem is that RNG, in most games, does not scale with character skill... because most MMO's don't characters with a numerical value skill.  How RNG should work is that a character has a skill level in whatever task they are attempting to perform whether it's 0 or whatever the max is.  The higher you get to your max skill level, the lower your chances are for failure, but always at least a small chance.

The same should apply to crafting.  In order to craft a super special sword, you should have a sword crafting skill, an advanced sword crafting skill and maybe even a specialist skill like Dragonbone Sword Crafting Skill. When a player goes to craft one of these, then their chance to craft one is based off of that number.

Also, dungeon loot should never be items.  Dungeon loot should be materials required to craft the items that player want to buy.  This way raiding feeds into crafting.

Pretty much this... And honestly, RNG dates back to the late 60s/early 70s when Mr Gygax and his friends started to roll dice for their adventures.

Personally I think there are some good systems available to let RNG do a better job than most games do. I am very found of how (Advanced) Dungeons & Dragons has always used RNG where your skill level indeed DOES matter and a RNG is used on top of that to see if and how much of a success the use of the skill has been. I wish something similar would be used in many games, and not when you have maxed out your skill, you still have a RNG running from 0 to that max...

Iselin

If we're talking about gear drops or gear enhancement I much prefer token systems for progressively earning the best gear instead of hoping that it drops or hoping your enchantment succeeds. As long as it isn't done in an extreme grindy way, it's a much better system with a guarantee that you'll get that best gear as long as you put in the time to earn it. Those systems feel fair.

The first time I ran into that system as far as I can remember, was when DAoC did it with the Darkness Falls dungeon tokens.

With respect to damage or healing done etc., I'm OK with the standard damage + RNG crit chance that most RPGs use but outright misses or fizzes are annoying as hell.

VestigeGamer

holdenhamlet said:

I'm still curious if there's any way to make an MMO without RNG and the frustration that comes with failing/losing.

DMKano had a good response to this, but I wanted to jump in, too.  RNG makes the game "a game."  Otherwise, it 100% skill based where every action has the exact outcome.

As for frustration, it is needed (in moderation) to make successes sweeter.  It means nothing of everyone gets everyone on one try.

I like some of the ideas presented where RNG is not "alone", but rather factors in other aspects such as character skill or previous RNG results.