MMO PVP players do not like PVP

somersaultsam

PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor. 

MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice... 

MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game... 

Opinions? 

WW4BW

Its war.. not a duel or sport.

H0urg1ass

somersaultsam said:

PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor. 

It does not, and never has.  It's why we have leaderboards, and why some people go professional and some do not.  PVP infers that one human being with a lump of grey matter three feet above their ass can outwit another human being who isn't using their grey matter as well.  Now, if you're talking about game mechanics, then even in that arena, there's rarely ever been any games that are 100% fair.

somersaultsam said:

MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice... 

Here, I will agree with  you somewhat.  Gear is too much of a deciding factor in many MMO's.  The problem with many MMO's is that PVE is a gear grind, and the developers are so goddamn lazy that the only meaningful progression they can possibly conceive for PVP is another gear grind.  In fact, PVE should be a gear grind and PVP should discount gear and be a game of dynamic, shifting territorial conquest a la Planetside.

somersaultsam said:

MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game... 

You will find cowards and courageous people in any walk of life.  If you give some people the possibility to have a competitive advantage, then they will abuse it.  The cowards are generally easy to spot because they whine the loudest when someone finally kills them, while the courageous will say "Nice one mate!".

My last big alliance that I was in in EVE Online was Rote Kapelle and we had a standing 1v1 rule, where we honored all requests for 1v1 and we tried to be fair about it.  I won and lost several 1v1 fights while all of my friends, who could have easily ganked the other guy, stood and watched me survive or die.

The last thing I will say is that in games like SWTOR, where I leveled several characters through nothing but PVP, some people get way too wrapped around the axle about dying.  I mean, seriously, all you have to do is wait a few seconds and click the respawn button.  It's not like you lose several hours worth of work when you die like EVE or Darkfall.

Kyleran

WW4BW said:

Its war.. not a duel or sport.

OP is confused between competitive team sports, where fairness comes into play and open warfare where the only thing that matters is the other guy is dead while you are not.

Malcanis

somersaultsam said:

PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor. 

MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice... 

MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game... 

Opinions? 

My opinion is that you're cross that people aren't acting the way you want them to. You want to limit the concept of "PvP" to a specific engagement style, while many other players have other priorities in combat, like holding the field, mitigating losses, taking down a certain opponent regardless of method or cost, and so on.
My further opinion is that you should understand and accept the rules of the game that you're actually playing, and not get cross when other players don't restrict themselves to some other, imaginary rules that you think you might prefer.

iixviiiix

"PVP players do not like PK"

fix it for you

Viper482

somersaultsam said:

PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor. 

MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice... 

MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game... 

Opinions? 

I get your premise and I agree with it, maybe just need some help with the delivery. Those in MMO's that consider themselves "hardcore" pvper's are the ones that no-life it to max level, gear up, then commence on camping the weak and vulnerable as long as they can until everyone else catches up. At that point these same "hardcore" pvpers will make sure they are playing the absolute most overpowered class available, and typically some kind of stealth class so they can uneven the laying field even more. All the while they brag on how badass they are...lol.

I agree dude, this is not my idea of pvp either.

Mardukk

WW4BW said:

Its war.. not a duel or sport.

This.  When I played Darkfall, we would sometimes hire to help protect if it was against and elite force or a force with more numbers.  We had to pay and play the political game.  The goal was to keep our city, I didn't care about "fairness" or "balance".  I find PvP with real consequences much more fun than PvP e- sport stuff.  I guess I do agree with OP that sometimes MMO PvPers are different types of players than the esport no consequences crowd.

mcrippins

While no game will ever really be perfectly balanced (it's just not logical), there have been games in the past that get pretty close, and definitely have skill being the highest factor. UO was one of those games. Many people PvP'd to see who was the best. Whether it be 1v1 or guild battles, it was one of the best games in regards to skill imo. Some will argue that they just got ganked. This did happen. Happens in all open world pvp games, but those are not the people i'm referring to. I'm talking about those who had a near maxed skill build, and were actually competitive.

Scottgun

Another post from www.igotgankedandnowimsalty.com

Distopia

IF folks only PVPed for the reasons you outlined, I don't see why they'd be doing it from lvl 10 on, rather than wait until they're fully geared and leveled to compete at the highest level. 

Tzavok

If you want fair PvP, then go play some moba or shooter game, in MMORPGS, there's no fairness, that's the whole point of it, at least for me.

I love it when i'm around lvl 30 or so and a high level enemy comes and ganks me, because i can ask a friend to come help me, the other guy brings more enemies and the low lvl quest zone becomes a battlefield.

Why should it be fair? it's a war, not a soccer game, the guy who has spent more time building his character, has an advantage, but if you're more skilled, you can still beat him, counters come in play too, terrain, etc.

I find MMORPG way more interesting and entertaining than Moba combat or Shooter combat, there's more strategy involved imo.

I've been playing Rogue, Thief, Asssasin, whatver you call it in different MMORPGs and i love Open World PvP, even if you call me a coward for being stealth, who's in the floor, dead? not me.

SomethingUnusual

Click bait... PvP means exactly what it initializes. Player Vs Player. Doesn't mean it has to be balanced, just means players get to fight other players. Even fighters have inbalance. Look at the last 25 years of Mortal Kombat. Some damned OP characters, the fun is stomping the crap out of the kid that always picks them.

Ceironx

OP completely missed the point of world pvp. It is supposed to be unfair. Btw the ones who cry about this feature are not PVP players. It's usually RP.

I know from when I used to play mmo back when there was more quality in those games, themepark or not.
There were 2 types of PvP:
1.Arena/Battlegrounds/GuildvGuild
2.Free Open world PvP

The first 1 usually had not much to do with gear, because you get the time to grind gear before you enter such fight. The second was very depended on gear. Now the reason thia system work(ed)(s) so well is because the second type of PVP has no influence on the actual game other than giving the players the opportunity to feel like they really are 'free' to do what they want, and for me that 'freedom' is what I'm missing in MMOS of today.

rodingo

somersaultsam said: 

Opinions? 

You were recently ganked or you got stomped in a PVP setting.

Octagon7711

I've seen PvP players complain a lot about other PvP players and do systematic posts in forums about what they were doing and taking screen shots as proof.  I've seen them try to get every build but their own nerfed for being op.  These weren't roleplayers but people with spreadsheets who did whatever they could to be best on server.

cheyane

MMORPGs have no such thing as fair PvP. I doubt  the structure and the systems are conducive to fairness.

SomethingUnusual

cheyane said:

MMORPGs have no such thing as fair PvP. I doubt  the structure and the systems are conducive to fairness.

They do, just most people don't see them and completely suck at playing them and refuse to admit. Instead they would rather whine on forums.

It's one thing to take a game seriously, its another to take it so seriously that the game is a cheat because you were beat by a better player. Hence my signature below.

MadFrenchie

I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a moment, just to provide for debate: while I get that PvP in MMORPGs is all about war and nothing implies fairness...  It seems the vast majority of players have spoken on the topic with their feet, and they prefer PvP where the developers do provide for a level playing field.

So why wouldn't MMORPGs follow suit?  I remember ESO launching with many multiples of Cyrodiil campaigns only to quickly see the number dwindle to just a few.  The RvR never quite took off as I hoped it might.  Yet, highly structured PvP games have grown like wildfire.  Does this not provide evidence that the tastes of the gaming population have moved on from the uneven field?  If not, what other features about MOBAs/FPSs and MMORPG PvP systems do you think have caused the trend?

cheyane

I think MOBAs/FPSs provide you hassle free PvP. They don't expect you to spend hours getting gear. In my opinion that is the main attraction that you can get in and get out minimum fuss is involved.

SomethingUnusual

MOBA games and First Person Shooters are a decent comparison, but is it really a fair argument towards the action of a completely different genre? 

To take a step back, @MadFrenchie is absolutely correct. "PvP in MMORPGs [are] about war and nothing implies fairness." I'll go as far to argue that fairness is merely a perspective. Is a game fun if EVERYONE is literally on the same playing field? I would be bored to death of a game of stalemate only conditions.

Games are about losing, or winning. Can't have both. 

Jamar870

Open World PvP often suffers from people who are mentally disturb. I say that from the stand point of where they are so OPed, Higher Level, etc.. that even the dev of the game decided that they should get nothing for doing it. I have no problem with PvP as long as they stay within the games rules.  But anyway since I am so sucky at it I don't even try any games that are Open World PvP where you can't turn off the flag for it.

Daikuru

I love PvP, open world PvP, even PK and ganking, it makes the world more dangerous and unpredictable, most fun i had in MMOs was open world PvP. Call a few friends or guild mates and battle others, better than mindless raiding.

H0urg1ass

MadFrenchie said:

I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a moment, just to provide for debate: while I get that PvP in MMORPGs is all about war and nothing implies fairness...  It seems the vast majority of players have spoken on the topic with their feet, and they prefer PvP where the developers do provide for a level playing field.

So why wouldn't MMORPGs follow suit?  I remember ESO launching with many multiples of Cyrodiil campaigns only to quickly see the number dwindle to just a few.  The RvR never quite took off as I hoped it might.  Yet, highly structured PvP games have grown like wildfire.  Does this not provide evidence that the tastes of the gaming population have moved on from the uneven field?  If not, what other features about MOBAs/FPSs and MMORPG PvP systems do you think have caused the trend?

I'm not being an ass, or trying to take a negative tone here at all.  I'm just genuinely interested in what structured PVP games you are specifically thinking about.  I can think of a lot of structured PVP games, but almost none that are on a completely level playing field.  There's always something that makes the field a bit less level.

World of Tanks - Highly structured, but some tanks in each class are simply far superior to others.  The Autoloading heavies for instance can murder another tank before it can shoot twice.  Russian tanks in general are better than German simply because Russians had sloped armor in WWII and Germans preferred to face-tank enemy rounds rather than bounce them.  Artillery can one-shot a tank from the other side of the map and it doesn't feel very fair when it happens.

Overwatch - Highly structured, but very rock/paper/scissors when it comes to character selection.  My most played character, Junkrat, is easily countered by Pharah.  If the enemy team has one, then it's hard to be effective.  But if our team has a really good Soldier, then the Pharah will have a hard time being effective.

Call of Duty - People like to say that this game is all skill based, but I would beg to differ.  There are certain loadouts combined with specific weapons that are far more devastating than other combinations.  I remember in MW1/MW2 I would take a P90, with a skill that let me sprint twice as long and the skill that hid me from radar... I was banned from several servers because that combo is so powerful people thought I was hacking.

Grunty

rodingo said:

somersaultsam said: 

Opinions? 

You were recently ganked or you got stomped in a PVP setting.

Yes, he was but it wasn't in a game. It was on these forums.

ApexTKM

I played CoD back in the day, not everyone likes controlled straight-forward systems in PvP, it gets really stale after a while, do you think that the americans told the british your only allowed to have as many shooters as us and the british agreed? This is why I started pvping in mmos there is so much more to it if they have a complex crafting system with different armor types(not just light/medium/heavy), different buffs, different food buffs, different healing stims etc. Fights tend to last longer, thats what I like. Gotta drop those harvesters in the right spots and gather them all to craft for the war.