Another mistake parents make is trying to referee sibling disputes, deciding who is right, or who gets what. My kids understand that if dad has to get involved in their disputes, they all lose. Teaches them to settle down and work things out before they piss off dad. There are three forms of conflict resolution:
The zero sum game, one side wins, the other side loses, winner takes it all. This generally leads to future conflicts, as it encorages the winner, and builds resentment in the loser. Parents should avoid engaging in this conflict resolution outcome.
The win/win scenario: Both sides discuss, listen, and determine how each can walk away with something they can live with. This should be the conflict resolution goal parents strive for to teach their kids.
The lose/lose scenario: Nobody willing enters a situation in which they are guaranteed to lose. This is the situation my kids know I will force them into if I have to intervene, so they are strongly encoraged to seek their own successful conflict resolution.
Originally posted by olddaddy Another mistake parents make is trying to referee sibling disputes, deciding who is right, or who gets what. My kids understand that if dad has to get involved in their disputes, they all lose. Teaches them to settle down and work things out before they piss off dad. There are three forms of conflict resolution: The zero sum game, one side wins, the other side loses, winner takes it all. This generally leads to future conflicts, as it encorages the winner, and builds resentment in the loser. Parents should avoid engaging in this conflict resolution outcome. The win/win scenario: Both sides discuss, listen, and determine how each can walk away with something they can live with. This should be the conflict resolution goal parents strive for to teach their kids. The lose/lose scenario: Nobody willing enters a situation in which they are guaranteed to lose. This is the situation my kids know I will force them into if I have to intervene, so they are strongly encoraged to seek their own successful conflict resolution.
I've seen that used, and I don't think it actually works very well. My next door neighbors use that technique a lot, when it is obvious that someone is right, and the other is wrong, but both of them get into trouble. It, to me, just seems wrong.
Here is a situation (that happens fairly often), that would defianately not work with that sort of punishment. The videogames could only hook up to one TV in the house, that there are two TVs in. Sibling A is watching Tv on the videogame TV. Sibling B is watching TV on the regular TV. They are both watching the same show. Now, sibling C wants to play video games, yet sibling A uses the arguement that "he was there first," and will not move. Sibling A and C get into an argument. Would you punish them both when A is just being a brat? Or would you only punish the one that is the cause?
I know that I'm no parent, but to me, this is illogical. You don't punish the criminal and the victim.
Originally posted by Xexima I've seen that used, and I don't think it actually works very well. My next door neighbors use that technique a lot, when it is obvious that someone is right, and the other is wrong, but both of them get into trouble. It, to me, just seems wrong.
Here is a situation (that happens fairly often), that would defianately not work with that sort of punishment. The videogames could only hook up to one TV in the house, that there are two TVs in. Sibling A is watching Tv on the videogame TV. Sibling B is watching TV on the regular TV. They are both watching the same show. Now, sibling C wants to play video games, yet sibling A uses the arguement that "he was there first," and will not move. Sibling A and C get into an argument. Would you punish them both when A is just being a brat? Or would you only punish the one that is the cause?
I know that I'm no parent, but to me, this is illogical. You don't punish the criminal and the victim.
If they came to me to resolve the situation, I would punish all involved (sibling A and sibling C), they would lose both the TV and the video game, rather than just the TV. Then they both lose. The point of the entire exercise is to teach them to resolve conflict on their own, enter into negotiations, each may have to give up something to get something they want. Many times my kids responded with "that's not fair", to which I always reply "life is not fair".
Originally posted by olddaddy Originally posted by Xexima I've seen that used, and I don't think it actually works very well. My next door neighbors use that technique a lot, when it is obvious that someone is right, and the other is wrong, but both of them get into trouble. It, to me, just seems wrong.
Here is a situation (that happens fairly often), that would defianately not work with that sort of punishment. The videogames could only hook up to one TV in the house, that there are two TVs in. Sibling A is watching Tv on the videogame TV. Sibling B is watching TV on the regular TV. They are both watching the same show. Now, sibling C wants to play video games, yet sibling A uses the arguement that "he was there first," and will not move. Sibling A and C get into an argument. Would you punish them both when A is just being a brat? Or would you only punish the one that is the cause?
I know that I'm no parent, but to me, this is illogical. You don't punish the criminal and the victim.
If they came to me to resolve the situation, I would punish all involved (sibling A and sibling C), they would lose both the TV and the video game, rather than just the TV. Then they both lose. The point of the entire exercise is to teach them to resolve conflict on their own, enter into negotiations, each may have to give up something to get something they want. Many times my kids responded with "that's not fair", to which I always reply "life is not fair".
What I've seen wrong with that kind of punishment, is that it tends to make people more stubborn and un negotiable than before. What ends up happening is that the child that is more dominant tends to never give in to an arguement, and the more submissive child, that doesn't want to get into trouble, doesn't get what is rightly deserved because he doesn't bring the argument to the parent. Kids need some sort of standard to base their arguments on, otherwise they will never learn how to negotiate, but rather how to not get into trouble.
Keep in mind, I've seen this happen many times, since that is the typical practice here in texas. Most particualarly my nieghbors, where they have one kid that is bratty and gets whatever he wants because he is not afraid to get into trouble over it, and then a few sumissive kids.
And to your last statement, "life isn't fair," No, it isn't, but that is the reason we have courts.
Originally posted by Hohbein You've opened a serious can of worms here, Boozbaz. But, as I've argued many a time in the past, I quite agree that kids do need physical punishment if they are to truely understand what is right, and what is wrong. Do people honestly think it's a coincidence that the current generation of children are among the most spoilt, foul mouthed, disrespectful little runts ever to have graced mankind? Does it honestly not dawn on anybody that this may be because only recently laws abolishing the correct punishment of children were introduced? In the 1940's, if a 14 year old walked up to a police officer and spat on the floor next to him, he'd receive a clip round the ear and possibly a further beating. Nowerdays, if a 14 year old does so and the police officer reacts correctly, the officer will find HIMSELF behind bars before long. It's all a bit screwed up unfortunately, but nothing will ever change it now, so it's not good arguing about it really. I just can't wait to see how utterly screwed up children become in the next generation, when the children of TODAY (with no manners or respect) have to bring up their own offspring. God help us...
" I quite agree that kids do need physical punishment if they are to truely understand what is right, and what is wrong."
Not true. I was NEVER hit once when I was a child. Never. And guess what? I learned what is right from wrong by WATCHING my parents, learning from them. And yes, learning from my mistakes. I am like ""Mommys little girl." Im a goody goody. I hate getting in trouble. And NOT because I thnk I'll get hit for making a mistake or doing something wrong. But because I know it was wrong.
I thought this way as a child. And I still do.
You don't need to hit a kid for them to be able to do that.
So no sorry, Im agains't hitting or "beating" your child.
Personaly, I believe it's BOTH the media and the parenting skills that make children act like total little monsters.
You don't need to hit them to gain respect. I actualy always hated parents who hit their children.
An example, my best friend gets slapped around alot at least once a week. For what? For argueing with her mother. That's it, just argueing, dissagreeing. She's 17 by the way. And at least once a week she comes to school crying. She hates herself, and has even tried committing suicide several times since she was a small child. I've known her all her life after all. She's a good girl. It's the mother hitting her daughter for no reason at all that she's so fucked up.
I have friends who have been hit for making little mistakes to large ones as they were growing up. And to be honest with you, they are more fucked up than myself, or anyone else I know that WASNT hit at all.
They hate themselves. And I can't help but feel that by hitting your child, even as a punishment like with a belt, that your setting the WRONG example. Do it enough they MAY or MAY NOT end up hating themselves, become depressed and go down that long dark and loney road.
Now for the current state of the way children are today? Bad parenting. Very bad. We have more teenage parents, mostly single mothers that had to drop out of school, that don't know what the fuck they are doing. And so this reflects on the child. But of course it isn't the childs fault they are being brought up terribly, they never asked to be born to terrible parents.
But I also think it's the media as well. Look at it. We have young kids shows that make (stupid) jokes about killing people, sex, gangs and etc. I watched one the other day, called "The Doodle Bops" Or whatever, and I couldn't believe how...well, crazy it seemed to me. I personaly wouldn't want my child watching it at all. The way they act on those shows rubs off on the children that watch them. And in return they too act the same.
Same with movies. We pg movies that have more death and bad attitudes in it than when I was a child. Sure, the CG ones are alright. But..eh..,they have more death in them than they did back like 10 years ago.
So I dissagree. Hitting your child will not solve a damn thing. In fact, it can make them hate their parents, themselves, everyone around them, or all of the above. Than again it depends on the child. no child acts or thinks the same as another, so it really depends.
I say it's bad parenting and the media.
( You can go ahead and make a flame/reply dissagreeing with me. But I'll only giggle, nod and continue on. ^_^ This is my opinion, and Im not going to change it for anyone. )
Originally posted by LilithIshtar Originally posted by Hohbein You've opened a serious can of worms here, Boozbaz. But, as I've argued many a time in the past, I quite agree that kids do need physical punishment if they are to truely understand what is right, and what is wrong. Do people honestly think it's a coincidence that the current generation of children are among the most spoilt, foul mouthed, disrespectful little runts ever to have graced mankind? Does it honestly not dawn on anybody that this may be because only recently laws abolishing the correct punishment of children were introduced? In the 1940's, if a 14 year old walked up to a police officer and spat on the floor next to him, he'd receive a clip round the ear and possibly a further beating. Nowerdays, if a 14 year old does so and the police officer reacts correctly, the officer will find HIMSELF behind bars before long. It's all a bit screwed up unfortunately, but nothing will ever change it now, so it's not good arguing about it really. I just can't wait to see how utterly screwed up children become in the next generation, when the children of TODAY (with no manners or respect) have to bring up their own offspring. God help us...
" I quite agree that kids do need physical punishment if they are to truely understand what is right, and what is wrong."
Not true. I was NEVER hit once when I was a child. Never. And guess what? I learned what is right from wrong by WATCHING my parents, learning from them. And yes, learning from my mistakes. I am like ""Mommys little girl." Im a goody goody. I hate getting in trouble. And NOT because I thnk I'll get hit for making a mistake or doing something wrong. But because I know it was wrong.
I thought this way as a child. And I still do.
You don't need to hit a kid for them to be able to do that.
So no sorry, Im agains't hitting or "beating" your child.
Personaly, I believe it's BOTH the media and the parenting skills that make children act like total little monsters.
You don't need to hit them to gain respect. I actualy always hated parents who hit their children.
An example, my best friend gets slapped around alot at least once a week. For what? For argueing with her mother. That's it, just argueing, dissagreeing. She's 17 by the way. And at least once a week she comes to school crying. She hates herself, and has even tried committing suicide several times since she was a small child. I've known her all her life after all. She's a good girl. It's the mother hitting her daughter for no reason at all that she's so fucked up.
I have friends who have been hit for making little mistakes to large ones as they were growing up. And to be honest with you, they are more fucked up than myself, or anyone else I know that WASNT hit at all.
They hate themselves. And I can't help but feel that by hitting your child, even as a punishment like with a belt, that your setting the WRONG example. Do it enough they MAY or MAY NOT end up hating themselves, become depressed and go down that long dark and loney road.
Now for the current state of the way children are today? Bad parenting. Very bad. We have more teenage parents, mostly single mothers that had to drop out of school, that don't know what the fuck they are doing. And so this reflects on the child. But of course it isn't the childs fault they are being brought up terribly, they never asked to be born to terrible parents.
But I also think it's the media as well. Look at it. We have young kids shows that make (stupid) jokes about killing people, sex, gangs and etc. I watched one the other day, called "The Doodle Bops" Or whatever, and I couldn't believe how...well, crazy it seemed to me. I personaly wouldn't want my child watching it at all. The way they act on those shows rubs off on the children that watch them. And in return they too act the same.
Same with movies. We pg movies that have more death and bad attitudes in it than when I was a child. Sure, the CG ones are alright. But..eh..,they have more death in them than they did back like 10 years ago.
So I dissagree. Hitting your child will not solve a damn thing. In fact, it can make them hate their parents, themselves, everyone around them, or all of the above. Than again it depends on the child. no child acts or thinks the same as another, so it really depends.
I say it's bad parenting and the media.
( You can go ahead and make a flame/reply dissagreeing with me. But I'll only giggle, nod and continue on. ^_^ This is my opinion, and Im not going to change it for anyone. )
The only problem I had with your post was the part about the media. That is the parent's fault for allowing the children to be part of it, and watch it.
The only problem I had with your post was the part about the media. That is the parent's fault for allowing the children to be part of it, and watch it.
Not really.
No matter where you go, the media is there. In music, on tv, games, movies, even at school. You can't stop your child from being exposed to the media. Unless you lock them in a dark closet 24/7.
We're all exposed to the media, and there's nothing we or the parents can do about it.
Originally posted by Xexima What I've seen wrong with that kind of punishment, is that it tends to make people more stubborn and un negotiable than before. What ends up happening is that the child that is more dominant tends to never give in to an arguement, and the more submissive child, that doesn't want to get into trouble, doesn't get what is rightly deserved because he doesn't bring the argument to the parent. Kids need some sort of standard to base their arguments on, otherwise they will never learn how to negotiate, but rather how to not get into trouble.
Keep in mind, I've seen this happen many times, since that is the typical practice here in texas. Most particualarly my nieghbors, where they have one kid that is bratty and gets whatever he wants because he is not afraid to get into trouble over it, and then a few sumissive kids.
And to your last statement, "life isn't fair," No, it isn't, but that is the reason we have courts.
Well, all I can say is that I have raised three kids, and they can see both sides to an argument and modify their behavior accordingly. Just as one example, I have seen both my son and my daughter negotiate over who gets the car, and, rather than engage in a long drawn out arguement over it, work out who will be where, when, drive, drop off, and pick up. When they approach me it is not to referee an arguement, but propse my involvement in how to make a solution work. And many times they do not approach me, because they don't need my involvement. You are right, we do have the courts to settle disputes, and many marriages end in the courts because spouses have not learned conflict resolution without resorting to a zero sum game. If done correctly, there is no dominant/submissive relationship, because both sides realize that through negotiation they can both get what they want. The standard the kids are learning is to always engage in the win-win conflict resolution. Perhaps you neighbors are not explaining/reinforcing the three basic scenarios of conflict resolution, and the purpose of the exercise, to their kids. Eventually, kids really are bright enough to grasp the concept. And obviously the bratty kid perceives a reward for the action of getting in trouble, which is like the kid in the supermarket checkout acting up because he/she knows mom will buy candy to obtain proper behavior. Not a good thing to reward improper behavior.
Well, I don't agree with hitting kids. Yeah, I was spanked as a child, and my mother was an absolutely horrible aim. I remember one time, I squirmed, and she slipped and hit me in the small of my back with a belt. That hurt. A lot. 'Course, I was only about five at the time...
Anyway, it's true that my perception of the world around me isn't the generally accepted one, but I see no positive effects to hitting kids. Which is not to say they shouldn't be properly punished. I mean, if you let your kid scream and throw things and stuff, especially in a public setting, you're a horrible parent, and you don't deserve kids. But I really don't have a problem with psychological punishment. You need to toughen your kids up psychologically, at least a little, or they'll break at the slightest thing. I mean, my parents were punished physically, and they... well, they don't deal with stress well. My mother boyfriend shot himself in front of her, maybe two years ago, and she still has flashbacks.
Basicly, what I'm saying is that you can't just listen to what they want to get them to shut up. You have to meet their needs, but nowhere does it say they have to like you. Now, I can't think of an actual "psychological abuse", since I'm not sure I believe most of the things people say fall under that catagory do, in fact, fall under that catagory... Well, no, I'm sure most don't. Anyway, yeah...
You have to teach your kids the tough lessons early on in life. I know that I was a Christian when I was little, and that made accepting that I won't live forever all the more difficult. I mean, my parents actually taught me that I would, in some form, exist forever. That's like telling kids that there really is a Santa Claus... I also don't like that eating the most at the table was a thing of pride when I was little, or that my mom still claimed to "encourage me to eat healthy". That's probably the worst thing, actually... Anyway, yeah, you've got to teach kids about death, about drugs, about murder, and all the other fucked up things when they're little. That way, they won't freak when they're older. I don't like how parent sugar-coat everything for their kids, then expect them to grow up to be well-adjusted individuals. It's ridiculous.
I don't think kids should be punished for having an opinion, though, so long as it's their own. Also, I was always pissed when I got spanked for "back talking", when I was just standing up for myself, or asking for an explanation. That was bullshit. If your kid wants info, you provide said info.
In my opinion, hitting your kids only makes them hate you. If you actually injure them, they have every right to injure you back. If you hurt someone they love, I say let them kill you, because you don't deserve to live anyway.
I am not for beating. However, if some parents are unable to achieve some minimal fair results without it, they should have the right to use minimal amount of strenght.
See, let's take the example of Joe Average, the guy is a dimwit, but an honest and kind citizen. He is unable to achieve the minimum disciplinary level over his kids. This guy should be allowed to give a slap or two if needed. Not doing so results in completely screwed kids.
See, a perfect dad with perfect kids never have to even raise the voice. However, let's face it, most dads are far from perfect and some may have kids that are quite screwed for various reasons often related to school. I am pretty sure that a good slap or two to put back the thoughs where they belong would make a lot of good.
I have nothing against the better methods, but let's be honest, if the parents are kinda dumbs, they should be able to give a slap or two to raise the kids fine. "We can teach these parents to be better and less dumbs", well, you COULD, in the past, but now, in the present, a slap migth be the only tool this parent can use effectively, not to mention that...did these parents have the time to follow classes about been parents? If we want kids and offspring and to developp instead of striving as we are (needs what, 2.1 kids per woman to merely survive?), maybe we should recognize that the "king-childs approach" isn't going to work with every parents and that those who still get children without having any tool, this usually end dramatically.
Kids need to learn the limits...and for a dimwit adult, the "slap" might be the only solution, not every adult is as brilliant as me or you, the reader.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Different kids respond differently to different types of punishment. The key is to find what works for what kids. It is a kin to punishment for criminals. Some need to be locked away forever to protect society. Some will respond to community service or probation. One solution will not work for every individual.
I see the biggest problem with the younger generation is a lack of respect for authority and a failure to take responsibility for their actions. I’m not saying it is wrong to question authority, but addressing a police officer, principal, your elders, or your parents with anything other than sir and ma’am should get you a slap up-side the head. It is showing respect and courtesy to those that have been there and done that.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Originally posted by LostGrace Rewards works better then punishment. This is a fact. Kids reply better when you say you will let them play Lineage 2 if they get good grade, but once they get that D they are off. Beating does nto do anything but piss uf off more. My parents rarly beat me cuz they both have degress in phycology and I love my parents. I get good grades, and have a good life. The most I do wrong is fall asleep in a study hall once and a while and get a detention. Sometimes I get into a argument with a teacher or other kid but I rarly do anything THAT bad.
Originally posted by olddaddy Another mistake parents make is trying to referee sibling disputes, deciding who is right, or who gets what. My kids understand that if dad has to get involved in their disputes, they all lose. Teaches them to settle down and work things out before they piss off dad. There are three forms of conflict resolution: The zero sum game, one side wins, the other side loses, winner takes it all. This generally leads to future conflicts, as it encorages the winner, and builds resentment in the loser. Parents should avoid engaging in this conflict resolution outcome. The win/win scenario: Both sides discuss, listen, and determine how each can walk away with something they can live with. This should be the conflict resolution goal parents strive for to teach their kids. The lose/lose scenario: Nobody willing enters a situation in which they are guaranteed to lose. This is the situation my kids know I will force them into if I have to intervene, so they are strongly encoraged to seek their own successful conflict resolution.
I got to this post and had to respond. Different things work for different people but I remember when my parents decided to let myself and my next oldest brother (just shy of two years older than me) "work it out for ourselves".
I'm not sure exactly how old we were but I'd guess I was around ten and he was around twelve. We got in a fight and I remember hearing my Dad tell my Mom to just let us fight. I'm not sure what judgement call to make on this, if any. I don't know if it was right or wrong or good or bad. But I can tell you what happened.
We were in the kitchen having a fist fight. They let us go and ignored it. The fight went on untill we ended up outside, still sluggin it out. Another brother (even older than we were) laughing and cheering us on. We kept fighting untill we were to tired to continue and we didn't resolve a damn thing.
And it started a pattern that continued all through our teenage years. We mostly got along with each other but whenever we ran into a conflict it pretty easily escalated into a fist fight.
Like I said I'm not sure if my parents were right or wrong to allow this but that's the way it worked out for us. I guess it did teach me a few things. It taught me to hold back in a fight when I had a clear oppurtunity to do real damage, because no matter how angry I was at the time I didn't really want to permanantly mess up my brother. It also taught me that a uppercut to the chin really will knock a guy back. It taught me that my brother will bite when you have him in a headlock. Stuff like that.
As far as my parents disciplining us, my Dad never beat us as far as I can recall. But my Mom would sometimes whip the holy shit outa us with a belt or whatever was handy. She did that from time to time untill I was old enough to take the belt away from her. But I don't hold against her and I get along with her just fine as an adult. I got along with her just fine as a child too except for those times when she was whipping the shit outa me. No big deal, I mostly deserved it when she did it.
On the other end of the spectrum is my Sister. She's one of those ultra passifist types who wouldn't smack one of her kids if the fate of the world depended on it. Her kids are adults now but my God they were brats when they were young.
I remember one time she was riding in the back seat of my car with one of her brats. Heavy traffic and we were trying to find an address that none of us had ever been to before. The brat was screaming at the top of his lungs just to be annoying. Not crying, just the LA LA LA LOOO LEEEE LE LA LA EEEEEEEEEEEEE! type of screeching that kids will do sometimes. She wouldn't shut him up so I reached back and thumped him on the forehead with my finger. Just a little snap....and my god it was like the end of the world. The kid started bawling like he'd just had his legs cut off and my sister started screaming louder than the kid had been screaming before. Holy crap.
Strangely enough her kids seemed to turn out pretty good as adults. But I think that's despite the lack of discipline and not because of it.
Originally posted by Neanderthal Originally posted by olddaddy Another mistake parents make is trying to referee sibling disputes, deciding who is right, or who gets what. My kids understand that if dad has to get involved in their disputes, they all lose. Teaches them to settle down and work things out before they piss off dad. There are three forms of conflict resolution: The zero sum game, one side wins, the other side loses, winner takes it all. This generally leads to future conflicts, as it encorages the winner, and builds resentment in the loser. Parents should avoid engaging in this conflict resolution outcome. The win/win scenario: Both sides discuss, listen, and determine how each can walk away with something they can live with. This should be the conflict resolution goal parents strive for to teach their kids. The lose/lose scenario: Nobody willing enters a situation in which they are guaranteed to lose. This is the situation my kids know I will force them into if I have to intervene, so they are strongly encoraged to seek their own successful conflict resolution.
I got to this post and had to respond. Different things work for different people but I remember when my parents decided to let myself and my next oldest brother (just shy of two years older than me) "work it out for ourselves".
I'm not sure exactly how old we were but I'd guess I was around ten and he was around twelve. We got in a fight and I remember hearing my Dad tell my Mom to just let us fight. I'm not sure what judgement call to make on this, if any. I don't know if it was right or wrong or good or bad. But I can tell you what happened.
We were in the kitchen having a fist fight. They let us go and ignored it. The fight went on untill we ended up outside, still sluggin it out. Another brother (even older than we were) laughing and cheering us on. We kept fighting untill we were to tired to continue and we didn't resolve a damn thing.
And it started a pattern that continued all through our teenage years. We mostly got along with each other but whenever we ran into a conflict it pretty easily escalated into a fist fight.
Like I said I'm not sure if my parents were right or wrong to allow this but that's the way it worked out for us. I guess it did teach me a few things. It taught me to hold back in a fight when I had a clear oppurtunity to do real damage, because no matter how angry I was at the time I didn't really want to permanantly mess up my brother. It also taught me that a uppercut to the chin really will knock a guy back. It taught me that my brother will bite when you have him in a headlock. Stuff like that.
As far as my parents disciplining us, my Dad never beat us as far as I can recall. But my Mom would sometimes whip the holy shit outa us with a belt or whatever was handy. She did that from time to time untill I was old enough to take the belt away from her. But I don't hold against her and I get along with her just fine as an adult. I got along with her just fine as a child too except for those times when she was whipping the shit outa me. No big deal, I mostly deserved it when she did it.
On the other end of the spectrum is my Sister. She's one of those ultra passifist types who wouldn't smack one of her kids if the fate of the world depended on it. Her kids are adults now but my God they were brats when they were young.
I remember one time she was riding in the back seat of my car with one of her brats. Heavy traffic and we were trying to find an address that none of us had ever been to before. The brat was screaming at the top of his lungs just to be annoying. Not crying, just the LA LA LA LOOO LEEEE LE LA LA EEEEEEEEEEEEE! type of screeching that kids will do sometimes. She wouldn't shut him up so I reached back and thumped him on the forehead with my finger. Just a little snap....and my god it was like the end of the world. The kid started bawling like he'd just had his legs cut off and my sister started screaming louder than the kid had been screaming before. Holy crap.
Strangely enough her kids seemed to turn out pretty good as adults. But I think that's despite the lack of discipline and not because of it.
Great stories! I can picture both the finger to the forehead and your older brother laughing at you two fighting. Thanks for the chuckle.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Originally posted by olddaddy My other favorite is the little brats at the supermarket checkout that decide to misbehave because they know mom will let them pick out a piece of candy to shut them up. Talk about rewarding anti social behavior....but mom is scared to smack the little brat in public.
WHen my kids act like this, I tell them if they don't stop I'll knock their asses out. Or I'll tell them they'll go in the closet when they get home. I get wierd looks from the cashiers, but my kids listen to me.
Originally posted by olddaddy Wait until the manipulative little brats get older. My oldest daughter threatened to turn me into child protective services for child abuse when I grounded her. I told her to "do it, do it, do it, then they will remove you from this house and place you in the foster care system". She decided calling child protective services just might not work for her. Then , there's my son, who defiantly came home late with the car (which he believes is his god given right to have) and threatened suicide, but eventually settle for running away, after I took his car keys away for two weeks. After a two mile walk in the cold damp rain he realized I wasn't coming after him (I actually went to bed), and decided to return home. He lost computer access for two weeks for running away. The problem with parental discipline, is that if you strike your child, you have to answer to the state. And if you don't discipline your child, when your child goes wild, the courts hold you, as a parent, responsible for your childs actions. It's a wonderful society, your damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The psycologists think you should reason with the little brats, even though they are incapable of reason, all they know is self. It's like the term "juvenile delinquency". By definition a child cannot be delinquent because they never accepted responsibility. Responsibility is an adult concept.
The above is a great example of why I will NEVER HAVE CHILDREN!!!
They are mean, nasty, stupid, horrible little devils until they hit 25 (and sometimes beyond). Give up my life to have that shit running around my house?!?
Comments
Another mistake parents make is trying to referee sibling disputes, deciding who is right, or who gets what. My kids understand that if dad has to get involved in their disputes, they all lose. Teaches them to settle down and work things out before they piss off dad. There are three forms of conflict resolution:
The zero sum game, one side wins, the other side loses, winner takes it all. This generally leads to future conflicts, as it encorages the winner, and builds resentment in the loser. Parents should avoid engaging in this conflict resolution outcome.
The win/win scenario: Both sides discuss, listen, and determine how each can walk away with something they can live with. This should be the conflict resolution goal parents strive for to teach their kids.
The lose/lose scenario: Nobody willing enters a situation in which they are guaranteed to lose. This is the situation my kids know I will force them into if I have to intervene, so they are strongly encoraged to seek their own successful conflict resolution.
Here is a situation (that happens fairly often), that would defianately not work with that sort of punishment. The videogames could only hook up to one TV in the house, that there are two TVs in. Sibling A is watching Tv on the videogame TV. Sibling B is watching TV on the regular TV. They are both watching the same show. Now, sibling C wants to play video games, yet sibling A uses the arguement that "he was there first," and will not move. Sibling A and C get into an argument. Would you punish them both when A is just being a brat? Or would you only punish the one that is the cause?
I know that I'm no parent, but to me, this is illogical. You don't punish the criminal and the victim.
If they came to me to resolve the situation, I would punish all involved (sibling A and sibling C), they would lose both the TV and the video game, rather than just the TV. Then they both lose. The point of the entire exercise is to teach them to resolve conflict on their own, enter into negotiations, each may have to give up something to get something they want. Many times my kids responded with "that's not fair", to which I always reply "life is not fair".
If they came to me to resolve the situation, I would punish all involved (sibling A and sibling C), they would lose both the TV and the video game, rather than just the TV. Then they both lose. The point of the entire exercise is to teach them to resolve conflict on their own, enter into negotiations, each may have to give up something to get something they want. Many times my kids responded with "that's not fair", to which I always reply "life is not fair".
What I've seen wrong with that kind of punishment, is that it tends to make people more stubborn and un negotiable than before. What ends up happening is that the child that is more dominant tends to never give in to an arguement, and the more submissive child, that doesn't want to get into trouble, doesn't get what is rightly deserved because he doesn't bring the argument to the parent. Kids need some sort of standard to base their arguments on, otherwise they will never learn how to negotiate, but rather how to not get into trouble.
Keep in mind, I've seen this happen many times, since that is the typical practice here in texas. Most particualarly my nieghbors, where they have one kid that is bratty and gets whatever he wants because he is not afraid to get into trouble over it, and then a few sumissive kids.
And to your last statement, "life isn't fair," No, it isn't, but that is the reason we have courts.
Not true. I was NEVER hit once when I was a child. Never. And guess what? I learned what is right from wrong by WATCHING my parents, learning from them. And yes, learning from my mistakes. I am like ""Mommys little girl." Im a goody goody. I hate getting in trouble. And NOT because I thnk I'll get hit for making a mistake or doing something wrong. But because I know it was wrong.
I thought this way as a child. And I still do.
You don't need to hit a kid for them to be able to do that.
So no sorry, Im agains't hitting or "beating" your child.
Personaly, I believe it's BOTH the media and the parenting skills that make children act like total little monsters.
You don't need to hit them to gain respect. I actualy always hated parents who hit their children.
An example, my best friend gets slapped around alot at least once a week. For what? For argueing with her mother. That's it, just argueing, dissagreeing. She's 17 by the way.
And at least once a week she comes to school crying. She hates herself, and has even tried committing suicide several times since she was a small child. I've known her all her life after all.
She's a good girl. It's the mother hitting her daughter for no reason at all that she's so fucked up.
I have friends who have been hit for making little mistakes to large ones as they were growing up. And to be honest with you, they are more fucked up than myself, or anyone else I know that WASNT hit at all.
They hate themselves. And I can't help but feel that by hitting your child, even as a punishment like with a belt, that your setting the WRONG example. Do it enough they MAY or MAY NOT end up hating themselves, become depressed and go down that long dark and loney road.
Now for the current state of the way children are today? Bad parenting. Very bad. We have more teenage parents, mostly single mothers that had to drop out of school, that don't know what the fuck they are doing. And so this reflects on the child. But of course it isn't the childs fault they are being brought up terribly, they never asked to be born to terrible parents.
But I also think it's the media as well. Look at it. We have young kids shows that make (stupid) jokes about killing people, sex, gangs and etc. I watched one the other day, called "The Doodle Bops" Or whatever, and I couldn't believe how...well, crazy it seemed to me. I personaly wouldn't want my child watching it at all. The way they act on those shows rubs off on the children that watch them. And in return they too act the same.
Same with movies. We pg movies that have more death and bad attitudes in it than when I was a child. Sure, the CG ones are alright. But..eh..,they have more death in them than they did back like 10 years ago.
So I dissagree. Hitting your child will not solve a damn thing. In fact, it can make them hate their parents, themselves, everyone around them, or all of the above. Than again it depends on the child. no child acts or thinks the same as another, so it really depends.
I say it's bad parenting and the media.
( You can go ahead and make a flame/reply dissagreeing with me. But I'll only giggle, nod and continue on. ^_^ This is my opinion, and Im not going to change it for anyone. )
Independant, Shinto, Lesbian, and Proud!
Not true. I was NEVER hit once when I was a child. Never. And guess what? I learned what is right from wrong by WATCHING my parents, learning from them. And yes, learning from my mistakes. I am like ""Mommys little girl." Im a goody goody. I hate getting in trouble. And NOT because I thnk I'll get hit for making a mistake or doing something wrong. But because I know it was wrong.
I thought this way as a child. And I still do.
You don't need to hit a kid for them to be able to do that.
So no sorry, Im agains't hitting or "beating" your child.
Personaly, I believe it's BOTH the media and the parenting skills that make children act like total little monsters.
You don't need to hit them to gain respect. I actualy always hated parents who hit their children.
An example, my best friend gets slapped around alot at least once a week. For what? For argueing with her mother. That's it, just argueing, dissagreeing. She's 17 by the way.
And at least once a week she comes to school crying. She hates herself, and has even tried committing suicide several times since she was a small child. I've known her all her life after all.
She's a good girl. It's the mother hitting her daughter for no reason at all that she's so fucked up.
I have friends who have been hit for making little mistakes to large ones as they were growing up. And to be honest with you, they are more fucked up than myself, or anyone else I know that WASNT hit at all.
They hate themselves. And I can't help but feel that by hitting your child, even as a punishment like with a belt, that your setting the WRONG example. Do it enough they MAY or MAY NOT end up hating themselves, become depressed and go down that long dark and loney road.
Now for the current state of the way children are today? Bad parenting. Very bad. We have more teenage parents, mostly single mothers that had to drop out of school, that don't know what the fuck they are doing. And so this reflects on the child. But of course it isn't the childs fault they are being brought up terribly, they never asked to be born to terrible parents.
But I also think it's the media as well. Look at it. We have young kids shows that make (stupid) jokes about killing people, sex, gangs and etc. I watched one the other day, called "The Doodle Bops" Or whatever, and I couldn't believe how...well, crazy it seemed to me. I personaly wouldn't want my child watching it at all. The way they act on those shows rubs off on the children that watch them. And in return they too act the same.
Same with movies. We pg movies that have more death and bad attitudes in it than when I was a child. Sure, the CG ones are alright. But..eh..,they have more death in them than they did back like 10 years ago.
So I dissagree. Hitting your child will not solve a damn thing. In fact, it can make them hate their parents, themselves, everyone around them, or all of the above. Than again it depends on the child. no child acts or thinks the same as another, so it really depends.
I say it's bad parenting and the media.
( You can go ahead and make a flame/reply dissagreeing with me. But I'll only giggle, nod and continue on. ^_^ This is my opinion, and Im not going to change it for anyone. )
The only problem I had with your post was the part about the media. That is the parent's fault for allowing the children to be part of it, and watch it.
Not really.
No matter where you go, the media is there. In music, on tv, games, movies, even at school. You can't stop your child from being exposed to the media. Unless you lock them in a dark closet 24/7.
We're all exposed to the media, and there's nothing we or the parents can do about it.
Independant, Shinto, Lesbian, and Proud!
Well, all I can say is that I have raised three kids, and they can see both sides to an argument and modify their behavior accordingly. Just as one example, I have seen both my son and my daughter negotiate over who gets the car, and, rather than engage in a long drawn out arguement over it, work out who will be where, when, drive, drop off, and pick up. When they approach me it is not to referee an arguement, but propse my involvement in how to make a solution work. And many times they do not approach me, because they don't need my involvement. You are right, we do have the courts to settle disputes, and many marriages end in the courts because spouses have not learned conflict resolution without resorting to a zero sum game. If done correctly, there is no dominant/submissive relationship, because both sides realize that through negotiation they can both get what they want. The standard the kids are learning is to always engage in the win-win conflict resolution. Perhaps you neighbors are not explaining/reinforcing the three basic scenarios of conflict resolution, and the purpose of the exercise, to their kids. Eventually, kids really are bright enough to grasp the concept. And obviously the bratty kid perceives a reward for the action of getting in trouble, which is like the kid in the supermarket checkout acting up because he/she knows mom will buy candy to obtain proper behavior. Not a good thing to reward improper behavior.
Well, I don't agree with hitting kids. Yeah, I was spanked as a child, and my mother was an absolutely horrible aim. I remember one time, I squirmed, and she slipped and hit me in the small of my back with a belt. That hurt. A lot. 'Course, I was only about five at the time...
Anyway, it's true that my perception of the world around me isn't the generally accepted one, but I see no positive effects to hitting kids. Which is not to say they shouldn't be properly punished. I mean, if you let your kid scream and throw things and stuff, especially in a public setting, you're a horrible parent, and you don't deserve kids. But I really don't have a problem with psychological punishment. You need to toughen your kids up psychologically, at least a little, or they'll break at the slightest thing. I mean, my parents were punished physically, and they... well, they don't deal with stress well. My mother boyfriend shot himself in front of her, maybe two years ago, and she still has flashbacks.
Basicly, what I'm saying is that you can't just listen to what they want to get them to shut up. You have to meet their needs, but nowhere does it say they have to like you. Now, I can't think of an actual "psychological abuse", since I'm not sure I believe most of the things people say fall under that catagory do, in fact, fall under that catagory... Well, no, I'm sure most don't. Anyway, yeah...
You have to teach your kids the tough lessons early on in life. I know that I was a Christian when I was little, and that made accepting that I won't live forever all the more difficult. I mean, my parents actually taught me that I would, in some form, exist forever. That's like telling kids that there really is a Santa Claus... I also don't like that eating the most at the table was a thing of pride when I was little, or that my mom still claimed to "encourage me to eat healthy". That's probably the worst thing, actually... Anyway, yeah, you've got to teach kids about death, about drugs, about murder, and all the other fucked up things when they're little. That way, they won't freak when they're older. I don't like how parent sugar-coat everything for their kids, then expect them to grow up to be well-adjusted individuals. It's ridiculous.
I don't think kids should be punished for having an opinion, though, so long as it's their own. Also, I was always pissed when I got spanked for "back talking", when I was just standing up for myself, or asking for an explanation. That was bullshit. If your kid wants info, you provide said info.
In my opinion, hitting your kids only makes them hate you. If you actually injure them, they have every right to injure you back. If you hurt someone they love, I say let them kill you, because you don't deserve to live anyway.
I am not for beating. However, if some parents are unable to achieve some minimal fair results without it, they should have the right to use minimal amount of strenght.
See, let's take the example of Joe Average, the guy is a dimwit, but an honest and kind citizen. He is unable to achieve the minimum disciplinary level over his kids. This guy should be allowed to give a slap or two if needed. Not doing so results in completely screwed kids.
See, a perfect dad with perfect kids never have to even raise the voice. However, let's face it, most dads are far from perfect and some may have kids that are quite screwed for various reasons often related to school. I am pretty sure that a good slap or two to put back the thoughs where they belong would make a lot of good.
I have nothing against the better methods, but let's be honest, if the parents are kinda dumbs, they should be able to give a slap or two to raise the kids fine. "We can teach these parents to be better and less dumbs", well, you COULD, in the past, but now, in the present, a slap migth be the only tool this parent can use effectively, not to mention that...did these parents have the time to follow classes about been parents? If we want kids and offspring and to developp instead of striving as we are (needs what, 2.1 kids per woman to merely survive?), maybe we should recognize that the "king-childs approach" isn't going to work with every parents and that those who still get children without having any tool, this usually end dramatically.
Kids need to learn the limits...and for a dimwit adult, the "slap" might be the only solution, not every adult is as brilliant as me or you, the reader.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Now, if they get out of line ...! That's a whole different story.
I like the idea of community service and volunteering with social services.
If they really screw up, then it's a dragon kick.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat
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Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
I agree that’s why I beat my children on the hour every hour no matter if they are well behaved or not.
3 cheers for child abuse.
Tin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
Different kids respond differently to different types of punishment. The key is to find what works for what kids. It is a kin to punishment for criminals. Some need to be locked away forever to protect society. Some will respond to community service or probation. One solution will not work for every individual.
I see the biggest problem with the younger generation is a lack of respect for authority and a failure to take responsibility for their actions. I’m not saying it is wrong to question authority, but addressing a police officer, principal, your elders, or your parents with anything other than sir and ma’am should get you a slap up-side the head. It is showing respect and courtesy to those that have been there and done that.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
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RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
I got to this post and had to respond. Different things work for different people but I remember when my parents decided to let myself and my next oldest brother (just shy of two years older than me) "work it out for ourselves".
I'm not sure exactly how old we were but I'd guess I was around ten and he was around twelve. We got in a fight and I remember hearing my Dad tell my Mom to just let us fight. I'm not sure what judgement call to make on this, if any. I don't know if it was right or wrong or good or bad. But I can tell you what happened.
We were in the kitchen having a fist fight. They let us go and ignored it. The fight went on untill we ended up outside, still sluggin it out. Another brother (even older than we were) laughing and cheering us on. We kept fighting untill we were to tired to continue and we didn't resolve a damn thing.
And it started a pattern that continued all through our teenage years. We mostly got along with each other but whenever we ran into a conflict it pretty easily escalated into a fist fight.
Like I said I'm not sure if my parents were right or wrong to allow this but that's the way it worked out for us. I guess it did teach me a few things. It taught me to hold back in a fight when I had a clear oppurtunity to do real damage, because no matter how angry I was at the time I didn't really want to permanantly mess up my brother. It also taught me that a uppercut to the chin really will knock a guy back. It taught me that my brother will bite when you have him in a headlock. Stuff like that.
As far as my parents disciplining us, my Dad never beat us as far as I can recall. But my Mom would sometimes whip the holy shit outa us with a belt or whatever was handy. She did that from time to time untill I was old enough to take the belt away from her. But I don't hold against her and I get along with her just fine as an adult. I got along with her just fine as a child too except for those times when she was whipping the shit outa me. No big deal, I mostly deserved it when she did it.
On the other end of the spectrum is my Sister. She's one of those ultra passifist types who wouldn't smack one of her kids if the fate of the world depended on it. Her kids are adults now but my God they were brats when they were young.
I remember one time she was riding in the back seat of my car with one of her brats. Heavy traffic and we were trying to find an address that none of us had ever been to before. The brat was screaming at the top of his lungs just to be annoying. Not crying, just the LA LA LA LOOO LEEEE LE LA LA EEEEEEEEEEEEE! type of screeching that kids will do sometimes. She wouldn't shut him up so I reached back and thumped him on the forehead with my finger. Just a little snap....and my god it was like the end of the world. The kid started bawling like he'd just had his legs cut off and my sister started screaming louder than the kid had been screaming before. Holy crap.
Strangely enough her kids seemed to turn out pretty good as adults. But I think that's despite the lack of discipline and not because of it.
I got to this post and had to respond. Different things work for different people but I remember when my parents decided to let myself and my next oldest brother (just shy of two years older than me) "work it out for ourselves".
I'm not sure exactly how old we were but I'd guess I was around ten and he was around twelve. We got in a fight and I remember hearing my Dad tell my Mom to just let us fight. I'm not sure what judgement call to make on this, if any. I don't know if it was right or wrong or good or bad. But I can tell you what happened.
We were in the kitchen having a fist fight. They let us go and ignored it. The fight went on untill we ended up outside, still sluggin it out. Another brother (even older than we were) laughing and cheering us on. We kept fighting untill we were to tired to continue and we didn't resolve a damn thing.
And it started a pattern that continued all through our teenage years. We mostly got along with each other but whenever we ran into a conflict it pretty easily escalated into a fist fight.
Like I said I'm not sure if my parents were right or wrong to allow this but that's the way it worked out for us. I guess it did teach me a few things. It taught me to hold back in a fight when I had a clear oppurtunity to do real damage, because no matter how angry I was at the time I didn't really want to permanantly mess up my brother. It also taught me that a uppercut to the chin really will knock a guy back. It taught me that my brother will bite when you have him in a headlock. Stuff like that.
As far as my parents disciplining us, my Dad never beat us as far as I can recall. But my Mom would sometimes whip the holy shit outa us with a belt or whatever was handy. She did that from time to time untill I was old enough to take the belt away from her. But I don't hold against her and I get along with her just fine as an adult. I got along with her just fine as a child too except for those times when she was whipping the shit outa me. No big deal, I mostly deserved it when she did it.
On the other end of the spectrum is my Sister. She's one of those ultra passifist types who wouldn't smack one of her kids if the fate of the world depended on it. Her kids are adults now but my God they were brats when they were young.
I remember one time she was riding in the back seat of my car with one of her brats. Heavy traffic and we were trying to find an address that none of us had ever been to before. The brat was screaming at the top of his lungs just to be annoying. Not crying, just the LA LA LA LOOO LEEEE LE LA LA EEEEEEEEEEEEE! type of screeching that kids will do sometimes. She wouldn't shut him up so I reached back and thumped him on the forehead with my finger. Just a little snap....and my god it was like the end of the world. The kid started bawling like he'd just had his legs cut off and my sister started screaming louder than the kid had been screaming before. Holy crap.
Strangely enough her kids seemed to turn out pretty good as adults. But I think that's despite the lack of discipline and not because of it.
Great stories! I can picture both the finger to the forehead and your older brother laughing at you two fighting. Thanks for the chuckle.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
The above is a great example of why I will NEVER HAVE CHILDREN!!!
They are mean, nasty, stupid, horrible little devils until they hit 25 (and sometimes beyond). Give up my life to have that shit running around my house?!?
NO THANK YOU!!!