Crafter revamp pushed back

Obraik · October 2006

The crafter revamp has been pushed back from this upcoming chapter. From Helios:

"After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there."

I'm not thrilled by the news as I was looking forward to this for my Armoursmith, however if it means not pushing it out before it's ready then I agree with the decision. Don't want another NGE now do we

Scaris · October 2006

I figured it was coming and I am happy. They really didn't know what they were going to do yet and this one needs it's time taken with it. I am fine waiting if it means it's going to be thought out and not off the cuff.

Does this mean I get my medic expertise sooner?

BaronJuJu · October 2006

Well that should make for an interesting Stratics Chat tonight

iskareot · October 2006

Originally posted by Obraik

The crafter revamp has been pushed back from this upcoming chapter. From Helios:
"After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there."

I'm not thrilled by the news as I was looking forward to this for my Armoursmith, however if it means not pushing it out before it's ready then I agree with the decision. Don't want another NGE now do we

Rofl outstanding.

Can we take bets on this now? I am nost sure this is allowed though here.

So does this mean they did not fufill a (Plan or I dare say) concept Obraik?

Please make this clear.....

Wildcat84 · October 2006

Bad BAD BAD move. There is absolutely no reason for a crafter to remain subbed until this happens. They just sent a few thousand more to the cancel button and the game closer to sunset.

What is going to be worse is when they do someday (if ever) get back to it and they THEN proceed to do the "take loot and make better loot" plan of Helios..

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by iskareotRofl outstanding.

Can we take bets on this now? I am nost sure this is allowed though here.

So does this mean they did not fufill a (Plan or I dare say) concept Obraik?

Please make this clear.....

What are you talking about? Make a point...

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by Wildcat84

Bad BAD BAD move. There is absolutely no reason for a crafter to remain subbed until this happens. They just sent a few thousand more to the cancel button and the game closer to sunset.

What is going to be worse is when they do someday (if ever) get back to it and they THEN proceed to do the "take loot and make better loot" plan of Helios..

Ya horrible move. This 3x trader is glad to hear it...

Bad bad bad...

Lateris · October 2006

This is a good thing. The crafter revamp is going to be a huge love and hate session for crafters. I expect it to push the expertise systems back a little bit. The more time they put into it the better. They must be taking an approach that they need to make it right the first time. This way new content can be rolled out. I hope now that they will let the spies get a revamp first!

Wind'Chilly · October 2006

Originally posted by Obraik

The crafter revamp has been pushed back from this upcoming chapter. From Helios:
"After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there."

I'm not thrilled by the news as I was looking forward to this for my Armoursmith, however if it means not pushing it out before it's ready then I agree with the decision. Don't want another NGE now do we

Yea since when does SOE push it back because its not ready?

They just were lazy and havn't decided on a system yet so they havn't even started to make it.

ShiloFields · October 2006

While I agree that its marginally better that SOE delay this than screw it up, which they envitably will, but I don't think that's much of an excuse on SOE's part. Its been 11 months since the NGE was launched and over three years since the game went live. They have had more than ample time to plan to get this right.

More fundamentally, I am not sure why everyone assumes that once SOE does get around to doing a crafter revamp that it will actually execute it well. The problem is that crafting as it existed pre-NGE and to some extent now conflicts with the developers very small vision of what SWG should be. Nothing SOE has done in the past 11 months leads me to believe they are willing to reconsider their vision. So whenever they get around to revamping crafting, these same issues are going to exist. They are against interdependence. They are against complexity. Any craftign revamp Helios does will strip these elements from the crafting system and make it more of an afterthought. At most you can hope for is a well polished afterthought, but given SOE's track record, even that is way too much to hope for.

I am not as optomistic as some to think that this decision means they are planning to annouce a server shutdown in the near future, as much as I wish that were the case. What I do think it means is that SOE has made the decision to put off pissing off (and driving away), the crafters left, which will be the ultimate result of any crafting revamp this team does, whether its in chapter 4 or 6 or 12.

KzinKiller · October 2006

Originally posted by ShiloFields

They are against interdependence. They are against complexity. Any craftign revamp Helios does will strip these elements from the crafting system and make it more of an afterthought. At most you can hope for is a well polished afterthought, but given SOE's track record, even that is way too much to hope for.

Regrettably, QFE. Helios' posts on the topic demonstrate with crystal clarity that they not only don't get what the people attracted to crafting in SWG want, they don't WANT to get what they want, because it doesn't involve killing and looting. They have only been hiring coders interested in kill/loot/repeat. If they even TRIED to implement crafting the way SWG crafters want it back, they don't have any coders who believe in it, understand it, or are competent to code it.

So, they're right back to where crafters were the day the NGE pushed out: "Sorry crafters, we don't know what to do with you, please sit around waiting for us for an indeterminate period of time and maybe we'll figure something out."

Inspirational.

kimosabe · October 2006

Originally posted by Obraik

The crafter revamp has been pushed back from this upcoming chapter. From Helios:
"After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there."

I'm not thrilled by the news as I was looking forward to this for my Armoursmith, however if it means not pushing it out before it's ready then I agree with the decision. Don't want another NGE now do we

I am amazed. You sir are the Grand Master Yoda of optimism and patience. I'd throw up if I wasn't so in awe. When I read this in the Veterans board, I thought to myself, "Heh, well if there's one thing about SOE and their NGE that will finallly piss off Obraik, this must be it." but I am shocked that you've taken the news so well. Now I'm torn between wanting to see your naive dreams triumph by virtue of your patience, or to see them screw over crafters for the last time and watch you turn sides. I'd ask you to teach me how to be more tolerant, but I enjoy being angry and vengeful.

BaronJuJu · October 2006

Originally posted by kimosabe

Originally posted by Obraik

The crafter revamp has been pushed back from this upcoming chapter. From Helios:
"After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there."

I'm not thrilled by the news as I was looking forward to this for my Armoursmith, however if it means not pushing it out before it's ready then I agree with the decision. Don't want another NGE now do we

I am amazed. You sir are the Grand Master Yoda of optimism and patience. I'd throw up if I wasn't so in awe. When I read this in the Veterans board, I thought to myself, "Heh, well if there's one thing about SOE and their NGE that will finallly piss off Obraik, this must be it." but I am shocked that you've taken the news so well. Now I'm torn between wanting to see your naive dreams triumph by virtue of your patience, or to see them screw over crafters for the last time and watch you turn sides. I'd ask you to teach me how to be more tolerant, but I enjoy being angry and vengeful.

That ain't nothing. Trying waiting for a Smuggler Revamp since Aug '03 then come talk to me.

Bogdawson · October 2006

it sounds like the some crafter here like the idea because they will take there time and make it right but has soe ever made a good revamp, i look at it this way do you want crap now or crap later, but it will still be crap guys, sorry just judging it from the past events.

they aren't going to spend extra time on it, you should really know better lol, more likely going to make chairs to be able to hold more then one person, well you wait lol just to funny

wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first

Shadrak · October 2006

Based on your feedback, we're now looking more towards creating a new economy for crafters, instead of changing the crafting system itself. It's just a different approach to the same basic problem. The problem being that combat class gameplay was fundamentally changed with the NGE while the crafting class game was not. The trick is properly aligning the crafting game with the combat game so that neither side feels cheated. We can't go back to how crafting was pre-nge - i.e crafters having a monopoly on the item economy due to no loot drops and high decay rates. Aside from the fact that that wouldn't be fair for the combat professions, it seems like that's not what most crafters want either. At the end of the day, everyone just wants to have a meaningful role. Keep an eye on the trader forums, which is where I'll most likely make a post with more details in the coming days.

-The Dark Lord Helios
-Lead Designer, SWG
"There is no reality in the absence of observation."

***** wrote:

It's a very simple change, Helios.

Make Crafted items better than loot, and Combat players will want those items. You don't need to make it an RE system, or anything extreme. Just make Crafting viable for us, and our items viable for them.

Win - Win scenario.

That's probably exactly what we're not going to do, because it's not a Win-Win scenario. It makes loot drops (what combat professions work for) worthless. Everyone wants the best of everything. If my loot drops are automatically outclassed by something crafted, I won't bother with loot drops any more.

-The Dark Lord Helios
-Lead Designer, SWG
"There is no reality in the absence of observation."

LINK

Wildcat84 · October 2006

Crafting will be second class compared to loot.

Just like it is in EQ2. Crafters can make fairly nice stuff, but I can always find loot on the vendor search that is superior.

ShiloFields · October 2006

By "new crafting economy" does he mean that crafters will be able to sell their items, that are inferior to looted, to NPCs rather than players?

Doesn't sound like a revamp to me? Sounds more like permentaly enshrine's craftings secondardy and inferior role to kill loot repeat.

Obraik · October 2006

Originally posted by kimosabe

Originally posted by Obraik

The crafter revamp has been pushed back from this upcoming chapter. From Helios:
"After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there."

I'm not thrilled by the news as I was looking forward to this for my Armoursmith, however if it means not pushing it out before it's ready then I agree with the decision. Don't want another NGE now do we

I am amazed. You sir are the Grand Master Yoda of optimism and patience. I'd throw up if I wasn't so in awe. When I read this in the Veterans board, I thought to myself, "Heh, well if there's one thing about SOE and their NGE that will finallly piss off Obraik, this must be it." but I am shocked that you've taken the news so well. Now I'm torn between wanting to see your naive dreams triumph by virtue of your patience, or to see them screw over crafters for the last time and watch you turn sides. I'd ask you to teach me how to be more tolerant, but I enjoy being angry and vengeful.

The fact is that as a crafter I don't reallly have a lack of things to do. I have orders placed daily, I have vendor sales daily and I have to keep both sides happy. If what some of you saying does come true and it does become a disaster, at least it's delayed that so I cna enjoy what I have for longer However, I think that would have been a more likely story had they continued with a chapter 4 release of the revamp.

Don't get me wrong I would LOVE a crafter revamp that made what I'm making even more desirable, but I want it to be something that I want to do as well.

Plus, Chapter 4 is Medic expertise now so that softens the blow :P

almagill · October 2006

On the one hand 'yay - they're pushing it back to do it right'
on the other hand 'wtf? last time one of my profs got pushed back it vansihed'
on the other hand... 'ooh, spy loving comes sooner this way?'
on the other hand 'yeah, typical, concentrate oon the combat stuff first'
on the other hand 'coding is hard (tm)Helios-SOE'

I've got a bad feeling about this. Well, certainly not a warm fuzzy.

Athela · October 2006

Here is my post from the snuggly traders Domestics forums:

Yesterdays forum comments by Helios:

After reviewing all of the player feedback to the various proposals, it was determined that we needed to take more time with Crafters. As a result, Crafters will not get an update in Chapter 4. That's all I can really say at the moment. I'm sure this will come up at the Stratics Chat tonight, so there might be more info to be had there.

In a nutshell, these “proposals” called for removal of large resource mining, harvesters and factories. Crafter players would instead make single items that had a chance of being excellent. Crafters would reengineer looted items.

Based on your feedback, we're now looking more towards creating a new economy for crafters, instead of changing the crafting system itself.

Now this is intriguing, and it could go anywhere. This could mean that crafters craft non-combat items, or that the entire way we sell and market items changes. Players have asked for many enhancements to the current merchanting system. This could be anything, but for myself, I am very happy that they do not plan to change the crafting system. The way we currently find and apply resources to crafting is just amazing, fun and rewarding.

That's probably exactly what we're not going to do, because it's not a Win-Win scenario. It makes loot drops (what combat professions work for) worthless. Everyone wants the best of everything. If my loot drops are automatically outclassed by something crafted, I won't bother with loot drops any more.

I have some remarkably unreasonable thoughts on this issue. No point in voicing those *again*, but I will say, for myself, that the way loot drops worked right at Publish 12 seemed perfect. There were a wide variety of useful, ornamental, and combat player delicious items dropping. There was something for everyone. Loot drops should not have replaced player made items at any point, they should have enhanced them and made them better, and the combat player should have maintained the choice of what enhancement he/she added to what items.

Tim “Neif” Temmerman from the Stratics chat:

Neif: Hey Neak, unfortunately we're not ready to give anything away on the Trader system. However we are constantly gathering feedback from you guys and what you're looking for, and that will be taken into account during the design phase. Seriously.

Since LucasArts hold the leash on every pixel in the game and how it moves from point A to point B, I would like to see their producers or someone from LucasArts come to these forums and actively engage in discussion with players. The shadowy “Sideous” routine is pretty old and frayed.

From Episode 55 of the Galaxy Report:

Fariq admits right off the bat he is a fanboi, rofl I knew it, hahaha, confession is good for the soul Fariq

Anywho, the episode is largely an interview with Helios on Chapter 3 and the smuggling system. Fariq asked a good question on how they go about designing each expertise system that can be used for us to see how the overall design thinking can be applied to a crafting expertise system. These are the basics:

What is the essence of the profession?

What should playing a _______feel like?

They use spreadsheets of the professions to try to look at how professions and skills balance out.

They do not strive for 100% balance all of the time as this results in a rock, paper, scissors contest.

Difficulty in ability and power is desirable.

They look at balance and numbers.

How much development time will be available in the future to maintain or enhance what they put into the design?

There should be some interaction between professions but not necessarily dependency.

The system should be architected so it can be added to over time.

LucasArts Marketing makes the primary decisions regarding how much and when information is released, then SOE makes determinations, then the development staff.

Many things are driven by market initiatives.

Spice is not seen as wholesome according to market research so will be unlikely to re-enter the game (I note this because we should look ahead to LEC and the animated series for next year and envision what is in our part of the game that is “wholesome” and what is not “wholesome”).

Low cost in development is something to consider.

They would like to bring crafters and spies into the smuggling system.

This is a lot to think about. I am actually glad that they have moved the crafting revamp back. I am slowly learning the basics of all the crafting professions, and I’m taking more time with tailoring and I love that profession even more. One day at work I was suddenly struck by the idea for a nice new SWG outfit and had to jot it down on a little scrap of paper and make it when I got home. So cute! It is a testament to how much the current system fires the imagination at the most unusual times. When your mind drifts off from the real world into an imagined one and you wish you were there doing something you could never do really, well that is such a wonderful thing, IMHO.

Kudos to Helios for referring to us as “crafters”, semantics are important!

iskareot · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by iskareotRofl outstanding.

Can we take bets on this now? I am nost sure this is allowed though here.

So does this mean they did not fufill a (Plan or I dare say) concept Obraik?

Please make this clear.....

What are you talking about? Make a point...

Lol, they are no closer to choosing it is the point.

I have read now what he said, lol not even close... in fact they are still thinking of ideas.

It's funny yet not in the least a suprise. Helios still has NO idea which way to drive the boat. Anyone can see that. But what's funny is that people are more pissed on the SOE boards then here, crap this is nothing compared to over there and I know it lol.

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by iskareot

Lol, they are no closer to choosing it is the point.

I have read now what he said, lol not even close... in fact they are still thinking of ideas.
It's funny yet not in the least a suprise. Helios still has NO idea which way to drive the boat. Anyone can see that. But what's funny is that people are more pissed on the SOE boards then here, crap this is nothing compared to over there and I know it lol.

And this is different from the first 2 years of the released game how?

BaronJuJu · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by iskareot

Lol, they are no closer to choosing it is the point.

I have read now what he said, lol not even close... in fact they are still thinking of ideas.
It's funny yet not in the least a suprise. Helios still has NO idea which way to drive the boat. Anyone can see that. But what's funny is that people are more pissed on the SOE boards then here, crap this is nothing compared to over there and I know it lol.

And this is different from the first 2 years of the released game how?

Absolutely no difference. Announcements were constanly being made to push or hold things promised, and folks act like this is some kind of new development. Show me a MMO that hasn't done this before.

Shadrak · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by iskareot

Lol, they are no closer to choosing it is the point.

I have read now what he said, lol not even close... in fact they are still thinking of ideas.
It's funny yet not in the least a suprise. Helios still has NO idea which way to drive the boat. Anyone can see that. But what's funny is that people are more pissed on the SOE boards then here, crap this is nothing compared to over there and I know it lol.

And this is different from the first 2 years of the released game how?

The difference is this IS NOT the first 2 years. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Youd think these people would know what they were doing after so long.

Obraik · October 2006

Those of us here that are crafters, Helios has posted feedback threads on each crafter forum requesting info on what we want for each specific profession. Be sure to make yourself heard

Mrbloodworth · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by iskareot

Lol, they are no closer to choosing it is the point.

I have read now what he said, lol not even close... in fact they are still thinking of ideas.
It's funny yet not in the least a suprise. Helios still has NO idea which way to drive the boat. Anyone can see that. But what's funny is that people are more pissed on the SOE boards then here, crap this is nothing compared to over there and I know it lol.

And this is different from the first 2 years of the released game how?

Well, they did have an idea, atleast the man who made the game did, but they rushed it, and slaped in the remaing features after thye "Promoted" him to somthing elese. The document was there, and it was done, the game was not finished when put out.

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Crafter revamp pushed back

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