Let the flaming comence (6v6 HA permanent)

VGJustice · October 2006

http://www.guildwars.com/

Changes to Heroes' Ascent
In lieu of the previously announced special weekend, we've decided to postpone the "Green Drop Weekend" until next week. This week's big news is the conversion of Heroes' Ascent into a 6v6 map. Yes, one of the most popular events will become a permanent element of the PvP game, along with a lot of exciting map changes, too. This will all go live sometime Friday, so stop on by and check it out. Check back next week for news about the "Green Drop Weekend" (which now promises to be even better)!

This has caused a HUGE amount of talk so far, and many have sworn to leave the game for good over this. Figured I'd bring this to your attention as well and see if we can get some form of discussion going on it.

Personally, I'm in favor of this change. HA has been pretty stagnent for nearly a year now, and it's needed a serious overhall. I'm not sure if this is the best way to do it, but I think that this will help things along at the very least. What I do find rather humorus is the cry of "now rank means nothing!" Sorry to burst your bubble, but Rank hasn't actually meant anything since IWAY Fame farmers.

Bent · October 2006

I favor it too. People also need to remember this isn't a Pay to Play game. Quiting the game costs Anet nothing and if anything SAVES them bandwidth.

Rank = nothing.

We alrready have 2 8v8 formats GvG and HA. GvG gives much better faction gain. HA lets you cap sigils and such and earn fame. Problem is, PuG HA takes way to long to set up good team for and if you already have guild team of 8 why not just do GvG instead? IMO most of the people that play HA are people that aren't allowed or don't have access to GvG on a frequent basis.

I think changing HA to a 6v6 format helps add to the progression. AKA GvG is more intense than HA, which is more intesnse then TA, which is more intense then, RA. In the 8v8 format I would easily say HA was more intense than GvG. Simply because even if you are overmatched in GvG you can turtle and last a good while, where-as in HA if you are outclasses your dead in about 2mins. It's hard to learn when you die that fast.

A 6v6 format will help in a number of ways.
It will be faster to form groups.
Spiking will be harder to do.

It will still be faster play then GvG, but now IMO will be a bit less intense. Since GvG is for money and rank, I do think GvG should be more intense then HA.

BronxChulo · October 2006

Doesn't matter what they do to HA. I can't stand going into that area, shouting to join a group for hours, and in the end not even find a group because everyone there is so picky about what class you are and what skills you must use.

Oh and let's not forget the wonderfull, "Show your rank please". Oh sorry your not rank 3+, we can't have that in our party.

Bent · October 2006

Yeap it is a silly state of things. It's the reason I only have 3 fame (not rank 3, just 3). My guild was successful enough in GvG. We were a mature guild and everybody knows HA is a cesspit. So, when we had 8 for PVP 98% of the time we would do GvG instead of HA. Trying to make a HA using a PuG is a sad attempt at living. I doubt the 6v6 will changed that. However, 6v6 makes it easier for me to do HA with a friends of Guild Group. So it simply becomes 8+ people that want to PvP = GvG, <8 means HA or TA now.

rwt2006 · October 2006

It's not just a # of players change, it alsso says the maps will change too. Which are probably geared towards the new format. New builds will be made and everything. It's a good way to keep the game fresh.

Games evolve, and thats pretty much what this is. Quitting wont change anything

VGJustice · October 2006

I still find it amazing how many people are so vocal against this change, especially at GWGuru. You'd think that the game was completely ruined based on what some of them were saying.

So far, the only valid argument I've heard against this is that the format is different enough from GvG to warent a new arena type. And they're right, 8v8 HA is VERY different from GvG. But, I also believe that making it 6v6 will be a better test of player skill and creativity than the stagnant pond HA has been for... a year at least. Since before Tombs was a PvE area. Since before IWAY, to be honest.

Now, maybe if my connection didn't suck so much right now I might actually be willing to try this PvP thing again.

exanimo · October 2006

people are so vocal against this change becose they dont have real life problems , they like to complain everytime anything changes .

i think this will be a good change too , easy to make a group , less lag , new builds

about the problem of people being picky , you have to leanr what people want and bring it to them , its not that hard , you just have to find out what skills you need when they call for something.

some builds call for the name of the main skill of the skill bar , and then you have to find about the other skills , asking is not a problem .

good leader even tell you what skills he wants everyone to bring.

instead of trying to get in a random group , study what professions combos people are using , and than make one the pvp char with that same combo , after ask the people who is spaming , what does it mean those letters , some people may laugh some people may call you noob , but some will tell you what it is .. and there you go.

oop = order of pain
iway = i will avange you
migrane = migrane its a elite of mesmers
starburst = staburst elite of eles

etc etc

Bent · October 2006

The people complaining are the people at the Top. They are at the Top. They want to stay at the top and want as few people as possible to surpass them. When things change, things change. Many of the top people will probably still be at the top others will fall.

IMO I think this is what we have

Top HA players that are really top players. They play to win, they play for the enjoyment of the win. These are people whom if you deleted rank completely would still continue to play HA. These are mostly guild with HA teams or groups of friends. These people rarely if ever PuG thus fame loses 90% of it's meaning.

"Top HA players that are really nothing but fame farmers. They play to earn fame, they play for the enjoyment of having more fame then other people. I'm not suggesting they play just for a number, but also what having higher fame implies. They want the fame because it lets them get into PuGs easeir etc. These are people whom if you deleted rank completely would likely quit HA. These are mostly PuGs or large HA Guilds without specific teams so rank is an important ticket into groups..

Unranked players.They play for the same reasons os either of the reasons as the above, but don't play enough to really "earn" any meaningful amount of fame, or to have right to a dedicated team.

The Real top HA players don't really lose anything. They do lose two slots which means an old running team of 8 may have to sideline two people, but chances are these people will remain top players and forward top teams.

The "top HA players" (fame farmers) have more to lose; everything to lose. With a 6v6 format fame will be easier to get simply from an increase number of matches going on at once. This effectively makes their fame worth less and increases the chance of other people passing them by. This causes fame infllation. Remember when rank 3 used to be enough? Now it's rank 6+ or 9+? Well that number is going to continue to get driven up until it becomes meaningless. Unless Anet raises the cap on Rank. In time anyone that focuses on HA will be rank 12. If 80% of people become rank 12, rank 12 if no longer special it may take years, but it will occur. Moving to a 6v6 format just speeds it up.

Unranked players lose nothing and gain little. The only gain is matches will be more frequent. It will IMO remain just as hard if not harder to get into a decent PuG. AKA now a group only needs to find 6 rank 6+ people opposed to 8.

Unknown · October 2006

Originally posted by VGJustice

I still find it amazing how many people are so vocal against this change, especially at GWGuru. You'd think that the game was completely ruined based on what some of them were saying.
So far, the only valid argument I've heard against this is that the format is different enough from GvG to warent a new arena type. And they're right, 8v8 HA is VERY different from GvG. But, I also believe that making it 6v6 will be a better test of player skill and creativity than the stagnant pond HA has been for... a year at least. Since before Tombs was a PvE area. Since before IWAY, to be honest.
Now, maybe if my connection didn't suck so much right now I might actually be willing to try this PvP thing again.

Have you ever seen a child who got a present and then threw it aside and started playing with the wrapping paper and having a great time, then suddenly some other child start playing the toy they got and they throw a hissy fit and are suddenly intensely interested in the toy they discarded for wrapping paper?

These people are like that.

VGJustice · October 2006

Freakin'... ROFL. ::::02::

And, I think you're right, Bent. PUGs will likely be even more strict on what they allow because of the reduced space which will make it harder for complete newbies and people like myself (I think I've got 3 or 4 fame from before Tombs went PvE) to get into a group. But, for the enterprising PUGer, I can imagine that it will be a bit easier to form a team since it's only 5 more instead of 7 more. And Balanced is basically all that gets run in PvE, so the super newbs should be at least "passable". Which is all you really want when you're first starting out. If you even MAKE it to the first real match, that's saying something for a gaggle of nublets. I know, I've been there.

Which of course makes a victory on that map all the more sweeter.

Ackbar · October 2006

I think the 6vs6 will make pugs a bit easier to form since you need less people for a particular build. And it will encourage guilds to participate more since if theyre short a couple people for gvg theyll have something to do as a group PvP wise.

exanimo · October 2006

ive been working on my fama lately , i always enjoyed pvp , but never really spend much time on it.
this days ive been joining , starburst spike , air spike , and balanced builds.
yesterday , i did what i advise others to do , and i asked a guy what was the skill build for Bspike , the build that almost always wins when i come across one. so i made a Bspike necro , and there i go looking a for a group.
i think i was lucky , i had a experience i never had before in pvp . 7 necros 1 rit lord , first we go on vent .. after we have the team full and everyone as the skill bar like it should be , we go to temple of baltazar ...
we are training spikes !!! the guy is counting down on vent and we train to make the spike really at the same time.
we spent a good time doing this , with time we start spiking faster and faster , it was amazing ...
and then we go to ha , we didnt win a lot of matches becose of some lag issues , but we reached the hall once.
that kind of team spirit , with the training and everything i had no idea it was hapaning in the backstage of hoh.
compare this kind of organization with any organized pug for urgoz or deep ... years of light away from it.
in this kind of team work we have to a huge lot more with each other. sincro spikes with voice is just something i never seen before like this. ive done it many times with other spike builds , but never did a training session like that. lots of fun.

Bent · October 2006

Good leaders are what really makes HA teams enjoyable. However, few good leaders turn to PuGs, and few PuGs are willing to listen and follow a good leader.

last_exile · October 2006

The 6v6 thing sounds good to me i mean easier to get group together an faster and the new maps well really dont affect me just somthing new to look at while im dead on the ground

Elenos · October 2006

With 6 ppl in a team, it means that there will be a lot more difference between skilled parties and noobish ones.
Personnaly, i'm in favor of that change, as it lowers a bit the power of spike builds which i hate, but it increases the elitism of the HA, and i'm sorry for the newcomers...

IgnisAer · October 2006

I like it. I'd rather just play to have fun and try new things, but it was getting to the point where if you didn't have a preset, very strict build, you didn't really stand a chance. With the change shaking things up, people might actually try new skills! zounds!

Akaraxle · October 2006

I don't PUG in HA anymore, and I strongly advise you against it. Get friends and play with them, it's easier to get 5 people instead of 7 now.

zollen · October 2006

The current state of GvG and HA are highly competitive, many casual players would have the feeling of being left out, I do agree that HA could use some form of improvements. I think instead of limiting number of players (i.e. 6 or 8), HA could be much more scenario/goal driven. For example, the winning objective could be one of the following:

1. Capture the flag(s)
2. Capture the castle
3. Assassinate opposing leader
4. Protecting key individual(s)
5. Providing logistics support for NPC armies
6. Providing protection for siege cannon
7. Last man on the hill (already has it, but there are ways to make it more interesting..)
8. Body Count (already have it, but there are ways to make it more interesting..)
9. Protecting a position (stop NPC army from taking that position, while disrupt opposing team from protecting theirs)
10. more....

HA could further split into 2
1. Competitive HA (for hardcore, ranked driven players)
2. Non-Competitive HA (for casual players, no rank award, just for fun)

VGJustice · October 2006

Sadly, I don't think that many of your ideas would work. I know for a fact that virtually everyone I talk to who prefers PvP has almost no respect for AIs because of how easy they are compared to actual players. Many would balk at the idea of a game where it's "who can kill more NPCs faster". Basically, they're not happy if they're not fighting players.

Also, I remember a fun little non-competative PvP that was introduced into the game a while back. It started to turn competative after about a week, and got to the point where people would insta-quit if they didn't get the team they wanted. It was the Snowball Arena. It was sad as hell, but that's what happened. Some people just are not happy unless they're winning, and if they end up on a random team or if they can't find their "superl33t" class combination they either whine continuously or ragequit, both of which ruin the fun for others.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong, though. I do believe that there's already a form of Capture the Flag in HA. Relic Run if memory serves. Capture the Castle sounds an awful lot like King of the Hill, and we've got multiple forms of that alerady (including HoH). And I can attest that "protect missions", where you have to guard a specific individual, are about the worst things ever for me. I can only imagine what a smart player on either side could do to that to make it annoying as heck.

I do think that more variety of play would help the game on the whole, but I don't think that most of your ideas would work too well in HA.

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