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Why can't other Companies be more like CCP?
SnaKey
Member Posts: 3,386
LEAVE YOUR EVE BASHING OUT OF THIS! THIS IS NOT ABOUT EVE ITSELF, BUT ABOUT THE COMPANY THAT MAKES IT!
Game companies try to milk every last penny out of their games as they can by releasing new versions and expansion after expansion.
Why can't other game companies be more like CCP? CCP have one game and they are making it live through time. There is no EVE2 there is just EVE. But with all the expansions that have come out and expecially the one that's in development aren't even the same game they originally released.
The new expansion that's being worked on, allows pilots to fly into planets and discover things there, get out of your pod and walk around the space station, as well as a full Graphics Upgrade making the game a completely different game.
CCP is seeing the MMO genre for what it is. Why create sequals to the game and lose subscribers in the switch when you can just keep the same game and update it as computers get better and playing styles change, keeping the same game world and the same characters?
Comments
CCP does an amazing job of maintaining EVE. Say what you want about the game, you have to give CCP credit for keeping and increasing their fan base and releasing expansions regularly. You know... expansions that actually EXPAND the game.
Companies should take a lesson from CCP. I think if a lot of developers studied how CCP does things rather than say... those idiots over at Blizzard, we might actually have some more solid MMOs to choose from.
Peace
I'm sorry, but you are wrong, SnaKey.
Even CCP is a money hungry monster. Don't disillusion yourself. Honestly, they wouldn't have made EVE without the backing of incredible amounts of money, because they had a lot to lose on that, which they did (to WoW).
The only company that wouldn't be a money hungry peice of corporate crap would be a game made by a small company, or a small group of people.
So yeah. Good game.
Prove that CCP didn't make EVE for the money. You can tell they did because there is a monthly fee, and even though there is no expansion, that is only for the fact that an expansion wouldn't exactly work with that huge of a world.
This isn't EVE bashing. It's fact. Sorry to crush your bubble with my Ragnaros' Hammer.
BTW, not saying WoW is any different. It is worse than EVE. But just because they did a good job of it, doesnt mean they are not in it for the money. The whole system of making money and such is proof of that. It is more time consuming than WoW at times.
But, I might be horrib ly, horribly wrong. Oh well.
I cannot hear you over the SHUT THE FUCK UP!
I think what he's saying is, different businesses can offer comparable products but INCREDIBLY different value packages for the same price. You might get self-serve gas at a major highway gas station for 25 cents a gallon more than you might pay for full service someplace else.
By offering expansions for free instead of for a charge, CCP sets themselves up as different from most of the major MMO producers: Mythic, SOE, Blizzard, Origin, all charge for expansion packs. The added value of free expansions is a method CCP uses to be more appealing to gamers, by adding more value to your monthly subscription fee.
Frankly, I think that having to buy expansion boxes AND paying a monthly sub fee is darned obnoxious.
A $40 expansion box nets the retailer about $20, the wholesaler about $10, and the publisher/game company the other $10 between the two. In the case of a self-publisher, like SOE games, they might only have to sell 100,000 or so copies to break even on an expansion, but someone like Mythic (well, before they were eaten by EA) would have had to sell many more copies to break even on an expansion pack.
The main reason it's done is to keep the game in the stores.
So it's less about profits from the packs themselves, and more about profits from the new players those ex-packs bring in.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Why would they make a game if it wasn't for money?
That just doesn't make any sense.
But just because they made it for money, does that mean they are money hungry? Does that mean they have lost their ethics like most companies (IE: Blizard, SOE, Microsoft)? No.
The world revolves around money, there is no way around it. I wouldn't f'ing work my ass off for years on a game if it wasn't for money, lets get real here.
I am very happy to hand my $14.95/mo over to CCP. They have my respect.
Look at Google.
Google and CCP should be models for all companies.
But, it's beyond the fact that the expansions are free. What they are essentially doing is having one game that is going to last for years and years and years. Instead of creating a game, milking the shit out of it, letting it die, then making a new one.
I think that EVE is going to last untill:
Something that pushes computers way beyond what they are now that forces CCP to make an EVE2. (I can't predict the future, but I'm thinking something along the lines of VR. But not nessisarily VR, like I said I can't predict the future.
A) Subscribers just leave for some reason.
EVE is one game. CCP has another project going, but I don't think it will be an EVE2 but a different game entirely. Maybe even a Fantasy MMO?
A Work in Progress.
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------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I wish I could find that YouTube of the guy flying around podding people on a planet.
A Work in Progress.
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I don't know of one company who doesn't keep on improving their games with graphic updates, new features, and patches. All free of charge, to everyone. The difference between those other companies, and CCP, is that everyone else calls these things periodic updates, or publishes (implying that this is what you should expect as a matter of course), while CCP calls them "free expansions" (implying that these are things that they could charge extra for, if they wanted to).
If I wanted to read development blogs, I don't have to pay NCSoft or SOE a thing. I can read some blogs with CCP, but most are inaccessable to anyone not willing to take on a bill. In most games, lore, info on developments, and sneak previews free of charge, published on a website, or in the gamebox. I can get some lore with CCP, but I have to buy a magazine to get more.
If a server is down, or I just don't like the server I am on, I can switch servers. Can't say I have that with CCP. There is only one, and when it is down, or I can't tolerate how the people there are, I don't have the choice.
So what do I save really? Twenty bucks? Yeah a box on the shelf may cost $40, but I get extras like maps, a rulebook so I don't have to keep alt-tabbing, maybe some other goodies too, like free trials on the other games.
I'll tell you something else I get from SOE, or NCSoft: free time. If I unsubscribe, they'll periodically give me free time to play my old characters as a "thank you" gesture. Sometimes I resub, and sometimes I don't. They still give it to me and all the other former subscribers though. Sometimes as much as three times a year, for weeks (EQ2 they gave me a whole month free). That doesn't strike me as the type of thing someone would do to "milk every penny" out of me.
CCP though? You can throw a lot of money at them and not even realize it, and it seems like they are giving you a good deal, when you really pay a whole lot more in the long run to get the same things as in other games. What you miss out on is all the little things you get for free with others, that you have to pay extra for with CCP. They won't give you free time. They won't give you glossies or a rulebook. They won't even give you the ability to look at news or blogs unless you cough up more money. And as soon as you cancel, you mean nothing to them.
These people know what they are doing at CCP, but not in terms of giving the subscriber a good value, as much as they make the subscriber believe they are getting a better value than what they actually are getting.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Thank you for that constructive, well thought out, informative post.
Yes it's nice CCP doesn't make people pay for patches, I find that a breath of fresh air in this horribly capitalistic world we live in, where everything is commercialised and the very air itself costs us money.
EvE is a wierd game. Basically it has very little ennvironmental content, missions are a joke and boring, the game overall is junk. The very fact that the game still exists is an anomoly(spl?). Basically the game is as cheap as they get, and the only thing that is its saving grace is the people who play it. The EvE players have made it into a relatively fun experience despite the game developers in my opinion.
Overall I praise the fanboish community for making this game decent, instead of some half assed company with no idea what its doing.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
I agree - this is maybe biggest reason why other companies are creating expansion packs: free publicity and new shiny retail boxes.
Also it would be hard to create traditional MMORPG expansion pack for EvE. Traditional expansions contains new areas, quests, items, levels and classes. In EvE, where players are creating content, you just can't sell new land or quests - you need players to create content for new areas. Also you can't add new classes or levels, because there is no levels or classes. And finally, adding exclusively items would be catastrophe in PvP and item oriented game environment. CCP just can't create traditional expansions packs to their game. They don't have other choices.
Other sandbox games have similar problem. I believe that Second Life hasn't published any expansions either. In other hand Ultima Online have created new expansions. In sandbox games developers are not content creators - they are just developing tools for users to create a new content. Thus they can't sell new content and creating exclusively tools wouldn't helping content creation.
... and now something totally different... Beatnik59: What is wrong with you? Did CCP stole your girlfriend? You are keeping posting your negative posts against CCP every possibility. I believe that, you can read now devblogs without subscriptions - they removed login requirement. I guess someone listened your last rant.
"I know I said this was my last post, but you my friend are a idiotic moron." -Shadow4482
As for the free time, IT'S ALL ABOUT MILKING YOU FOR MORE MONEY!! It cost them next to nothing to send that e-mail out and probably next to nothing to have you play for that month. If they getr one person to decied to pay another 15 bucks they have made some profit. I do the same thing as a gunsmith sending out cards to previous customers so that my name stayed at the top of thier head when it came to buying a new rifle for the hunting season. The game companies send these automated e-mails out just to get thier product name back out there so you might give it that time a try and say, "hmm... I really miss this game I think I'll subscribe again."
When you look just below the surface of alot of these offers you see they are all driven by money. You think that CoX's new vetran items are there in anyway shape to try and coax a little more time and money out of people. bet it cost them next to nothing to do that. what one dev and one Modler for about 2 weeks if that.
Personaly I don't think eve would do good next to the new fps at a local store anyhow.
Well, it's a good thing this thread isn't about EVE but about the business tactics of CCP.
But yeah, those free time things...... are to get you to come back because they are losing subscribers. If they weren't losing subscribers then they wouldn't be sending you those at all. Do you really think they are sending them out of the kindness of their hearts? lmmfao. Give me a break.
EVE-Online Expansions really are Expansions. They do fix bugs and have updates just like every other MMO, but their expansions are really full blown expansions. But you wouldn't know that because you don't actually play the game and can't see or don't realize what they have in them.
The Magazine - Is about getting more money yes, but it's a good idea for the game. I support that as well. I don't get it, but still. EVE Constantly has writers writing more lore everyday about the game and the RP Players support them. The Game is entirley(sp?) PVP based and the magazine is focused on that, why do you care if X Fleet kills Y Fleet and takes Z POS if you don't play the game anyway?
A Work in Progress.
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Actually wouldn't that be like Jagex and RuneScape? There was an "RS2" but it was basically a graphic and system update.
all applauds to CCP practice aside (and i do admire them for passing on the opprotunity to gain a few more $$$ from game/xpack boxes and/or buying the game itself) thre's also a very practical consideration of not having to have backward compatability (and believe me, making sure your regular version players can continue to play with the expesion players is no easy task).
MMORPG addict since 1995.
Why can't other game companies be more like CCP? CCP have one game and they are making it live through time. There is no EVE2 there is just EVE. But with all the expansions that have come out and expecially the one that's in development aren't even the same game they originally released."
Which new L2 chapter did NC Soft charge for (no I have never played it but all those things which are the size of most expansions are free..)
CoH/CoV also from NCSoft have updates that are no extra charge.
What you are talking about and milking every penny... I only know one company that pushes out a ton of expansions.. and that is SOE.
So if what you really meant was.. why can't SOE be more like CCP then I might agree with you.
NC Soft (How many GWs are there? Why are CoV/CoH 2 Different Games?)
Then there is the rest of the big players:
Blizzard
Mythic
EA
Turbine
A Work in Progress.
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I don't think Eve is that great, but I do respect CCP for at least 'sticking to their guns' with respect to development. Unlike SOE/LA, CCP didn't fundamentally alter their game in response to the continued popularity of World of Warcraft.
Thanks for the update Snakey, I'll definately take another look at Eve once you can get out of you pod and stretch those legs. : )
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Well, it's a good thing this thread isn't about EVE but about the business tactics of CCP.
But yeah, those free time things...... are to get you to come back because they are losing subscribers. If they weren't losing subscribers then they wouldn't be sending you those at all. Do you really think they are sending them out of the kindness of their hearts? lmmfao. Give me a break.
EVE-Online Expansions really are Expansions. They do fix bugs and have updates just like every other MMO, but their expansions are really full blown expansions. But you wouldn't know that because you don't actually play the game and can't see or don't realize what they have in them.
The Magazine - Is about getting more money yes, but it's a good idea for the game. I support that as well. I don't get it, but still. EVE Constantly has writers writing more lore everyday about the game and the RP Players support them. The Game is entirley(sp?) PVP based and the magazine is focused on that, why do you care if X Fleet kills Y Fleet and takes Z POS if you don't play the game anyway?
@Resetgun: I understand that a lot of people take EVE personally, and they see the slightest bit of criticism against the game or CCP as a personal affront. I don't hate CCP, but I hate the way people misrepresent them as being better than the others. It is something everyone who doesn't have a stake in EVE or CCP has to deal with. The reason I reply to threads like this one is that the hype is so targeted and misleading, that it is easy to take the exaggerations as facts. The truth is that hype costs nothing, and it costs them absolutely nothing to sign up another for a non-refundable $20.
@SnaKey: It is true that this thread is about the business tactics of CCP, and not EVE. The truth of the matter is that all games lose subscribers, even subscribers who pay a lot into these games. The difference is how the company treats you, once you decide to go.
Yes, even EVE loses subscribers. The difference is that when NCSoft or SOE loses subscribers to churn, they give you periodic free episodes to check it out, play like you did before, check out the new features, and earn back the business. I hadn't paid CoV or EQ2 more than $100 in total for either. Yet they send me free passes to log back in, post on the boards, play my old characters, and check out what has happened for myself. It worked too, because I subbed up in EQ2 for one more month I wouldn't have if they didn't send me the free time. I'm not saying there is no self-interest involved, but they are approaching the whole thing like, "we know you left, but we haven't forgotten about you. We are willing to do what it takes to earn back the business." Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, but I appreciate the gesture.
Now I paid over $150 over two accounts in EVE since January. Quit in August. But I'm not holding my breath that all that money I paid them counts for squat now. After all, what do I really have now to show for that $150 American? All I get is junk E-mail about fanfest and the card game, but no serious attempt to earn back the business. Rather than say, "we got some business from him, what can we do to get him back?," its like CCP is saying to me, "Beatnik was a $150 chump, let's go find the next chump."
Let us talk about these "expansions." Is it good that they add in new skills, new ships, new items, and new gameplay options? Sure it is. It is what you should expect for your sub fee. You know what I got for my $150 this year though? Four new asian models on the character generator, and a slew of nerfs.
EQ2 does that too though. Same with CoV. In fact, I haven't had to pay anything extra for the new "mayhem" missions in CoV, the new costume options, the mastermind thugs, etc. All the "expansions" were free there too. Even in EQ2, they added over 100 new quests, they did the solo writ system, created the PvP system, add the SOGA models, rework the class system, all available without paying one dime in extra fees. In fact, they added so many things in EQ2, that I can spend months doing those things without ever buying Desert of Flames, etc. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the free expansions you get in CoH/CoV are far more comprehensive, and "true expansions" than you ever get in EVE. They add in a ton of new art, more good things for every playstyle, new archetypes, new powers, and new zones with their own unique feel.
If you look at the facts, CCP isn't doing anything NCSoft or SOE doesn't do. The difference is that the CCP PR folk trash talks its competition, saying that they aren't like the "establishment." I can tell you this much though. The "establishment" has done far more to earn back the business of one Beatnik59 than CCP has done. Not that CCP really cares though, since they already got $150 from me, and I'm not all "chummy chummy" with them.
@Terrified: No, EVE isn't the worst MMO out there. No, CCP isn't the worst dev house either. There are far worse, like D&L, Farlan, Mourning, Limitless Horizons LLC. EVE is a game like any other, and CCP is a dev house like any other. Both can do things better though, and can learn a lot from the people they claim they can learn nothing from.
I have no love for SOE, for what they did with SWG. I flame them on the boards constantly. Yet they still give me free time on EQ2, and SWG. I still flame them, but I have to say at least they are trying.
To tell you the truth though, even if I want to go back to EVE (and I admit, I've been considering checking back), I'm not sure I can go back. I've spoken up here, and took issue with the hype they are pushing for so long, half of me suspects they'll just ban me after I submit my CC number, like they do with many people they do not like. The problem with this business model based upon treating customers like pals, is that if you don't act like pals to them, they feel they don't have any obligation toward you as a customer.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
CoH does the exact same thing, no expansions, just patches.
On the logical side of things, I don't have a problem buying an expansion. I don't expect something for free. The monthly fee covers keeping the game up and running but it doesn't cover 100% of the new development.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
There is a problem with giving free time in EVE though, it's that skills train over real time.
So, if I made an account 3yrs ago for a month and never played again. By now I would have at least 5 or 6months free time put into the game... right? Then I could just turn around and sell that account for $200+ on eBay.
Multiple accounts are very common in EVE, even you had 2 accounts in the game. If they gave out free time to everyone who cancled their second account there would be even more PVP Capable ships in the game than there already is, thereby making it even harder on the new players. I myself even have a Power^2 account that is inactive, I would love some free time on that then turn around and sell it to one of my friends who is just starting.
A Work in Progress.
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