Originally posted by qbangy32 The game is Age of Conan, take a look at both boards to check out what was said, I think it's the first time I've ever seen that happen, shame really.
Sorry but i really have no intention of reading up on several boards as to what was said. If you have a clear link to Brad talking badly about another game then please show it.
I sincerly doubt that Brad would actually talk badly about a competitor. I am not a "Brad fan", but he seems to be too professional for that to be honest. I can see how he might compare Vanguard to Conan or other games and point out differences. He has done this in the past, but not once have i seen him talk badly about another game.
I have no intention either of sifting thru nearly 2 months worth of posts on both sites, but I can assure you that Brad had a good old dig at AoC, but any publicity is good publicity so they say.
However I'm sure any Vangaurd diehard here who lives on those boards will be able to give you the highlights .
P.s I could post one of the apologies that was posted on the AoC boards from a Vanguard poster if you want?
I am not really interested what Vanguard diehards or posters write or think about other games.
I have found that most MMO fans always seem to feel at their best when they rip other games apart - quite sad really.
I would have been interested in Brad talking badly about other games, but i understand that you don't wanna go through those posts either
If he did, i agree, it's bad in my opinion. Though without context it's speculation.
How fans of both games reacted to statements made by Brad is irrelevant really - fans of vanguard don't speak for the game or Sigil.
As i mentioned before - i am sufficiently impressed by vanguard to fork out 30£ and get the game and play it for a month - then i can form my own opinion
The game does not really have anything to do with what Brad did or did not say about another title, nor will i let that influence my decission to play it.
Originally posted by ZeGerman1942 I have found that most MMO fans always seem to feel at their best when they rip other games apart - quite sad really.
So true.
We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started... and know the place for the first time. -T.S. Eliot
Originally posted by ZeGerman1942 I have found that most TROLLS always seem to feel at their best when they rip other games apart - quite sad really.
So true.
Fixed.
Not all people are overflowing with negativity. Don't you just hate those idiots? Anyway, those landscape shots are absolutely breathtaking, that world is just beckoning me to dig in! I really can't wait, there was one island in one of the screenshots, can't wait to go there for the first time.
Originally posted by qbangy32 I lost all respect for Sigil the moment Brad started to knock a competitior, sad when competiting games have to resort to that type of behaviour.
I challenge you to find such a quote from Brad. All I've seen up to now from the dev team are posts that describe how VG will not belong in the same category as some other games, such as DDO, AoC or GW, but rather shouldbe compared to EQ, WoW and the like.
They also were always pretty up front in these posts about what caracteristics VG will have and won't have compared to those games, and they always presented it in a respectful way, emphasizing on differences rather than bashing.
Finally, I'll just say that if you only read the devs posts without reading (at least some) of the threads they posted these replies on, then you only got part of the story. Because those posts were always in reply to people comparing VG to other games.
I don't say that VG will be the do-all, everyone-must-have, MMORPG of the year, but rather that it should be seen for what it is, no more, no less.
It doesn't matter one bit if raiding only constitutes 20% of the content if that 20% gets all of the best gear and scripted content. This game rewards the raiders and no-lifers and leaves every other play style in the dust, feeling like the red-headed stepchild.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Was there a note somewhere that said "You have to play this MMO" ?
If so, please do point me towards it.
/sarcasm off
Sorry guys, but a game is what it is. If it's not to your liking, then don't play it - you HAVE that options.
Just because a developer is announcing a new MMO, that does not mean its going to be yours and they have to do everything in order to make it fit your criteria.
Developers have a vision of a game and they tend to stick to it and make it the way they want (with input from users and beta testers) - if they have a good vision and make a good game, people will pay for it and play. it not, then people won't pay for it and won't play it.
But nobody will ever force anyone to play an MMO they don't like.
Yes, we don't have to play the game and many of us certainly won't, but we will voice our opinions on it. Why? Because this genre is in its infancy and there are certain development companies that tend to set its general direction and therefore when a compnay like Sigil that has many developers that have such a large impact on the genre and its overall flow, then I'm certainly going to complain about ideas they have that could very well affect future games in the market. This has been a friggin hardcore market since its incepetion and has only recently started to cater to casuauls and mainstream players and it pisses me off to no end to see them taking steps backwards because of the influence some of these developers have. Its not my business to worry about how they make their money, but it is my business on how I spend it and if they continue to make this a hardcore market, they will not be getting any more of my hard earned money and yet it also saddens me because this genre has so much potential and yet they grasp at age old paradigms as if their very lives depended on them. For such a group of technically advanced individuals, they sure are afraid to think outside of the box.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by ZeGerman1942 I am sorry. I think i missed something.
Was there a note somewhere that said "You have to play this MMO" ?
If so, please do point me towards it.
/sarcasm off
Sorry guys, but a game is what it is. If it's not to your liking, then don't play it - you HAVE that options.
Just because a developer is announcing a new MMO, that does not mean its going to be yours and they have to do everything in order to make it fit your criteria.
Developers have a vision of a game and they tend to stick to it and make it the way they want (with input from users and beta testers) - if they have a good vision and make a good game, people will pay for it and play. it not, then people won't pay for it and won't play it.
But nobody will ever force anyone to play an MMO they don't like.
Very good points. And I shall add that there's no reason for anyone to spread false/uninformed stuff and opinions. This isn't a contest, its about what game fits your playstyle the most.
Originally posted by Vrazule It doesn't matter one bit if raiding only constitutes 20% of the content if that 20% gets all of the best gear and scripted content. This game rewards the raiders and no-lifers and leaves every other play style in the dust, feeling like the red-headed stepchild.
Ok, I can't find that quote anymore, but it was clearly said that the high-end gear will not only come from raiding, but also from the Crafting and Diplomacy spheres, as well as high-end single groups (remember, the core of this game revolves around single groups -- meaning approx. 6 players). So in this case, it is doubtful that really 20% of the best gear comes out of raiding.
That being said, obviously, if you do something that extra-hard, in a game, you should get rewarded accordingly. Why even bother to have various difficulty level, then ? They could make this all easy for everyone and everyone would be uber... but uber compared to what ? I don't know if you get my drift, but sometimes, difference is necessary for... huh... differentiation to happen.
And you don't want to be exactly similar to the next guy, now don't you ?
I'm upset that one play style is always rewarded better than another, it doesn't matter to me one bit that you think one is more difficult than another. Its the developers fault that they make one more difficult than the other, its not inherent to raiding, its inherent to the developers narrow thought process.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by Vrazule I'm upset that one play style is always rewarded better than another, it doesn't matter to me one bit that you think one is more difficult than another. Its the developers fault that they make one more difficult than the other, its not inherent to raiding, its inherent to the developers narrow thought process.
And who are you to know exactly what a developer thinks and wants to achieve?
Isn't it up to the developers to decide as to how things are done and how the difficulty levels are set?
if people do not like it, they will not pay for it, the developer will go back and think about why a game did not sell and listen to feedback and try again (or not). but to call a developer narrow minded is quite harsh.
Unless you are a games developer and spend 12 hours or more a day working on a piece of software, then please don't come around and judge them.
You can like or dislike the final product, that is always down to individual taste, but blaming developers is stupid. Why can't you just say "I don't like this"? Why do so many people have to say "The developers made it as bad as it is."
I played Lineage II - i did not like it. I played Everyquest II - i did not like it. I played EQ 1 - i liked it. I played WoW - i liked it, for a while.
the games that i did not like were brilliantly developed, they just went a way i did not like - and so i choose not to play them.
and how anybody can get upset about a game is beyond me as well.
I have every right to judge them based on what I've experienced with a game's play style. Its obvious that they(MMO developers in general) have no desire to make solo / small group content just as challenging as raiiding, this is the epeen factor and developers are just as prone to it as hardcore gamers, heck, a good percentage of devs are current or ex-hardcore gamers in the first place. Finished products tell us in no uncertain terms which play style is favored over another and in every single MMO so far, raiders and no-lifers always get the best rewards and the best scripted content over any other play style.
They keep telling us that if we liked EQ original, we'll like this game, well I hate to break it to you bud, but that is exactly the kind of play style they pandered to in that game. They talk about core gamers, but if you ever pay attention to the dev chats about the risk / reward system, it leaves no doubt whatsoever that they will continue the old and outdated system of raiders and no-lifers getting the best rewards. And why is that, because they can't be bothered to scale solo/small group content difficulty to match that of raiding, therefore allowing every play style to have access to the best rewards in the game. Its epeen through and through and I remember quite well how Brad McQuaid used to go off on the original EQ about how great raiders are, that they're the best of the best period. His whole team had a close relationship with the Fires of Heaven (read: elite hardcore raiding guild). So it is with a rightful grain of salt that I take anything he and his fellow buddies say about all play styles being catered to, especially where rewards are concerned.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
what i am trying to tell you is that it's not your game
i understand what you are trying to say and i can see you are frustrated but it's not your decission how to make a game, unless you actually own the company that develops the game.
Vanguard is not made for you alone. Vanguard is a vision and an idea of Sigil and the guys who founded it and it represents what they think is a good approach to an MMO. some people (like you) won't like that approach. other people will like it.
all in all though, you have no right to blame anyone for how a game is designed and laid out. The only thing you can blame developers for is if they deliver a game full of bugs, a game that does not work, a game that is released to early etc.
but you can not blame them for what the game represents and who it caters for.
If you are not among those who like the way vanguard is going then i am sorry - you probably waited a while for it and then found out it was not what you expected. thats always harsh. but not every game will always fit every person.
There is quite a few MMOs coming out over the next year or so, and i am sure there will be some who deliver what you want in an MMO.
but we have to understand that developers don't make games for individual people - they make games the way they think works best and in order to generate some money, so they need to try and aim for the largest market out there. again, if they mess it up, the game won't make money and they have to start from scratch. i think that would be punishment enough no?
I find it interesting that you find my opinions singular and yet yours isn't? By that argument, you don't represent the popular opinion any more than I do. MMO's are in their infancy and though these devs try to portray themselves as the experts, they really have no idea what they're doing. They're still fumbling around and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. Since OLD SCHOOL seems to be rather niche when it comes to actual income of an MMO versus what could be if they could appeal to the mainstream player base, then something has to change to not only appeal to the larger audience, but to draw in the counless millions of dollars those mainstreamers would pay. Argue all you want, hardcore will never be mainstream. Currently they choose to build their games this way, but someday they will learn that a game is a game, it should sell on its own merits and not based on mechanics that create eliticism and a caste system. What normal person would want to even start playing a game that automatically discounts you for your play style and yet charges you just as much money as the no-lifing smuck who gets every benefit of the game?
I already know this isn't my game, I've made that quite clear, you're the one who seems to be unable to grasp my argument. These devs set trends in the industry, its time they take responsibility for that. Brad keeps stressing about going back to old school "core" play styles. In my opinion, that's taking steps backwards for the whole genre, it upsets me because they do influence the whole market and I despise this move back to hardcore. The financing companies are already afraid to invest in new ventures, what picture does it paint them when the devs themselves are afraid or plain unwilling to try something new, to try and appeal to the countless potential gamers who are obviously not hardcore. I can't imagine half of my friends ever playing a MMO that forces you to give up ridiculous amounts of time in order to get anywhere in a game. Its no wonder they call us nerds, who in their right minds would applaud this kind of mentality? Sometimes I get the impression these games are geared to misdirect and addict players, where the entertainment value is secondary and almost inconsequential. Its all about keeping the subscriptions with the least amount of work and the least amount of quality for the greatest monetary return and maybe a bit of dev ego thrown into the mix.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
i never claim i am right like with most things - you'll have to wait and see who is right i don't think i represent the majority at all. but i don't need to represent the majority to think that you are wrong by attacking developers.
but again you are not getting my point.
If the developers make a crappy game, that caters only to one section of players (or a niche section as you call it), then the game will not make enough money and die out. and the developers will learn from that.
but it is the developers CHOICE to go down that road. to make the game how THEY think is best. don't you agree?
if they are wrong, they pay for it, but it is their mistake to make.
Some of the guys at Sigil are veterans. They have been working on MMOs since the early days of EQ - which was probably around 1995 or so when it went into development. some of them have been working on MUDs before that, which is about as veteran as you can get when it comes to computer games in general.
What normal person would want to even start playing a game that automatically discounts you for your play style and yet charges you just as much money as the no-lifing smuck who gets every benefit of the game?
No normal person would want to start a game that does not cater to that persons playstyle. No normal person is forced to play that game and pay for it either. That does not only include games that cater for hard core raiders, but the same goes for games that primarily caters to crafters or groupers etc. You still sound like you will be forced to play this game.
I've made that quite clear, you're the one who seems to be unable to grasp my argument. These devs set trends in the industry, its time they take responsibility for that. Brad keeps stressing about going back to old school "core" play styles. In my opinion, that's taking steps backwards for the whole genre, it upsets me because they do influence the whole market and I despise this move back to hardcore.
No i grasp your point really clearly. You are a casual player, you were hoping that Vanguard was for you, and currently you think it is not (incidentally, are you in the Beta? have you actually PLAYED the game?). And because you think the game is not what you WANT it to be, you whine and bitch about how evil developers ruin the industry.
First of all - do you have ANY evidence that backs up your claim that Vanguard is influencing the whole market to move back to hardcore. I mean are there any interviews and or news articles from other games that state "Vanguard is going hardcore, we will do the same!" - if so, i have not seen any.
Secondly - if one game goes hard core, whats it to you? just don't play it and find a game does caters to your playing needs. if ONE game caters to all hard core people, and all these evil evil hard core people go play that game, you might be able to really truely enjoy the game you finally choose without having to deal with these evil evil hard core people.
Thirdly - all press statements and game info as well as beta logs and user posts i have seen about Vanguard suggest that it will NOT ONLY cater to hard core, but there will be plenty to do for the casual player. So again, have you actually played the game yourself?
The financing companies are already afraid to invest in new ventures, what picture does it paint them when the devs themselves are afraid or plain unwilling to try something new, to try and appeal to the countless potential gamers who are obviously not hardcore.
Again i would really appreciate some evidence (perhaps a statement by a finance company?) to the above. Vanguard found financing, Warhammer found financing, LotR found financing - all these new MMOs find financing quite easily as far as i can see. As for developers not willing to try something new - excuse me? every new MMO has some new features and incorporates new ideas, developers constantly push the boundaries of MMOs. Just look at the features list of Vanguard for crying out loud! How about the diplomacy thing - something new right there!
I can't imagine half of my friends ever playing a MMO that forces you to give up ridiculous amounts of time in order to get anywhere in a game. Its no wonder they call us nerds, who in their right minds would applaud this kind of mentality?
Well you and half of your friends won't play a game that requires huge time sinks then. Good on you. Thats called consumer choice. And pretty much any kind of regular games player (let that be MMO or anything else) could be called a Nerd - so what.
Sometimes I get the impression these games are geared to misdirect and addict players, where the entertainment value is secondary and almost inconsequential. Its all about keeping the subscriptions with the least amount of work and the least amount of quality for the greatest monetary return and maybe a bit of dev ego thrown into the mix.
Hrmm well of course companies want to keep people playing their games and get the subscription fees. but that applies to every online game and a game that caters to casual players will be no different there i think. I would not necessarily link this with least amount of quality though.
Overall summary:
You are obviously a casual gamer. For some reason you obviously think that Vanguard will cater primarily to hardcore players. That angers you, because you obviously thought that Sigil should develop a game for you personaly and to fit your playstyle. So now you blame everything on the bad bad developers who are money hungry and create a poor quality game that caters to the evil evil hardcore players that will pay and subscribe for months on end, because they are nerds and have nothing better to do.
That about sum it up?
Again: i would REALLY be interested if you are in the beta or not. Because if you are not, then i don't think you can actually have any judgement over the game at all ( i am not in and i resever my judgement on the game until after i have played it for at least a month).
Also, for the things quoted above, your blanket statements, i would really appreciate some hard fact evidence.
The "Evidence" is in there for all to see in many of the developer interviews hosted not only by this very website, but many others as well. If you want quotes, then go read them yourself, I don't have the inclination to hunt them down when my memory serves me well enough. Nice try with the whole personal angle, every opinion is personally based and yet it can and many times does represent many other opinions to boot, there is no use in you trying to discount mine with that argument, its called hypocracy. The whole point of my argument is to try and make the devs see that the casual market IS out there and should not be discounted, that we deserve something better than a small nod and that we deserve content and rewards equal to any other play style. If they say their game will cater to non-raiders and solo / small groupers and yet still give the best rewards to raiders, then their game does not in fact cater to non-raiders, its called a paradox or an outright misdirection. Its a practice of mine to hold people accountable for saying one thing while doing another, especially if they're going to charge us money for it.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by Vrazule The whole point of my argument is to try and make the devs see that the casual market IS out there and should not be discounted, that we deserve something better than a small nod and that we deserve content and rewards equal to any other play style.
and the whole point of my argument is that it's really up to the developers to decide in which direction a game goes.
as for the rest:
you still have not elaborated whether you are in beta or not, in fact you seem to have ignored that point completely, in which case i assume that you are not in beta. and if you have not played the game yet, i really wonder how you can judge the game and already know exactly which direction it is taking.
with regards to evidence, i disagree. if you make claims such as you did (MMO devs having a hard time finding finance, etc) then really it's up to you to provide the facts, and not tell me to go look it up.
Comments
Sorry but i really have no intention of reading up on several boards as to what was said. If you have a clear link to Brad talking badly about another game then please show it.
I sincerly doubt that Brad would actually talk badly about a competitor. I am not a "Brad fan", but he seems to be too professional for that to be honest. I can see how he might compare Vanguard to Conan or other games and point out differences. He has done this in the past, but not once have i seen him talk badly about another game.
I have no intention either of sifting thru nearly 2 months worth of posts on both sites, but I can assure you that Brad had a good old dig at AoC, but any publicity is good publicity so they say.
However I'm sure any Vangaurd diehard here who lives on those boards will be able to give you the highlights
.
P.s I could post one of the apologies that was posted on the AoC boards from a Vanguard poster if you want?
I have found that most MMO fans always seem to feel at their best when they rip other games apart - quite sad really.
I would have been interested in Brad talking badly about other games, but i understand that you don't wanna go through those posts either
If he did, i agree, it's bad in my opinion. Though without context it's speculation.
How fans of both games reacted to statements made by Brad is irrelevant really - fans of vanguard don't speak for the game or Sigil.
As i mentioned before - i am sufficiently impressed by vanguard to fork out 30£ and get the game and play it for a month - then i can form my own opinion
The game does not really have anything to do with what Brad did or did not say about another title, nor will i let that influence my decission to play it.
We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started... and know the place for the first time.
-T.S. Eliot
Fixed.
Not all people are overflowing with negativity. Don't you just hate those idiots? Anyway, those landscape shots are absolutely breathtaking, that world is just beckoning me to dig in! I really can't wait, there was one island in one of the screenshots, can't wait to go there for the first time.
They also were always pretty up front in these posts about what caracteristics VG will have and won't have compared to those games, and they always presented it in a respectful way, emphasizing on differences rather than bashing.
Finally, I'll just say that if you only read the devs posts without reading (at least some) of the threads they posted these replies on, then you only got part of the story. Because those posts were always in reply to people comparing VG to other games.
I don't say that VG will be the do-all, everyone-must-have, MMORPG of the year, but rather that it should be seen for what it is, no more, no less.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Was there a note somewhere that said "You have to play this MMO" ?
If so, please do point me towards it.
/sarcasm off
Sorry guys, but a game is what it is. If it's not to your liking, then don't play it - you HAVE that options.
Just because a developer is announcing a new MMO, that does not mean its going to be yours and they have to do everything in order to make it fit your criteria.
Developers have a vision of a game and they tend to stick to it and make it the way they want (with input from users and beta testers) - if they have a good vision and make a good game, people will pay for it and play. it not, then people won't pay for it and won't play it.
But nobody will ever force anyone to play an MMO they don't like.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
That being said, obviously, if you do something that extra-hard, in a game, you should get rewarded accordingly. Why even bother to have various difficulty level, then ? They could make this all easy for everyone and everyone would be uber... but uber compared to what ? I don't know if you get my drift, but sometimes, difference is necessary for... huh... differentiation to happen.
And you don't want to be exactly similar to the next guy, now don't you ?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Isn't it up to the developers to decide as to how things are done and how the difficulty levels are set?
if people do not like it, they will not pay for it, the developer will go back and think about why a game did not sell and listen to feedback and try again (or not). but to call a developer narrow minded is quite harsh.
Unless you are a games developer and spend 12 hours or more a day working on a piece of software, then please don't come around and judge them.
You can like or dislike the final product, that is always down to individual taste, but blaming developers is stupid. Why can't you just say "I don't like this"? Why do so many people have to say "The developers made it as bad as it is."
I played Lineage II - i did not like it.
I played Everyquest II - i did not like it.
I played EQ 1 - i liked it.
I played WoW - i liked it, for a while.
the games that i did not like were brilliantly developed, they just went a way i did not like - and so i choose not to play them.
and how anybody can get upset about a game is beyond me as well.
I have every right to judge them based on what I've experienced with a game's play style. Its obvious that they(MMO developers in general) have no desire to make solo / small group content just as challenging as raiiding, this is the epeen factor and developers are just as prone to it as hardcore gamers, heck, a good percentage of devs are current or ex-hardcore gamers in the first place. Finished products tell us in no uncertain terms which play style is favored over another and in every single MMO so far, raiders and no-lifers always get the best rewards and the best scripted content over any other play style.
They keep telling us that if we liked EQ original, we'll like this game, well I hate to break it to you bud, but that is exactly the kind of play style they pandered to in that game. They talk about core gamers, but if you ever pay attention to the dev chats about the risk / reward system, it leaves no doubt whatsoever that they will continue the old and outdated system of raiders and no-lifers getting the best rewards. And why is that, because they can't be bothered to scale solo/small group content difficulty to match that of raiding, therefore allowing every play style to have access to the best rewards in the game. Its epeen through and through and I remember quite well how Brad McQuaid used to go off on the original EQ about how great raiders are, that they're the best of the best period. His whole team had a close relationship with the Fires of Heaven (read: elite hardcore raiding guild). So it is with a rightful grain of salt that I take anything he and his fellow buddies say about all play styles being catered to, especially where rewards are concerned.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
what i am trying to tell you is that it's not your game
i understand what you are trying to say and i can see you are frustrated but it's not your decission how to make a game, unless you actually own the company that develops the game.
Vanguard is not made for you alone. Vanguard is a vision and an idea of Sigil and the guys who founded it and it represents what they think is a good approach to an MMO. some people (like you) won't like that approach. other people will like it.
all in all though, you have no right to blame anyone for how a game is designed and laid out. The only thing you can blame developers for is if they deliver a game full of bugs, a game that does not work, a game that is released to early etc.
but you can not blame them for what the game represents and who it caters for.
If you are not among those who like the way vanguard is going then i am sorry - you probably waited a while for it and then found out it was not what you expected. thats always harsh. but not every game will always fit every person.
There is quite a few MMOs coming out over the next year or so, and i am sure there will be some who deliver what you want in an MMO.
but we have to understand that developers don't make games for individual people - they make games the way they think works best and in order to generate some money, so they need to try and aim for the largest market out there. again, if they mess it up, the game won't make money and they have to start from scratch. i think that would be punishment enough no?
I find it interesting that you find my opinions singular and yet yours isn't? By that argument, you don't represent the popular opinion any more than I do. MMO's are in their infancy and though these devs try to portray themselves as the experts, they really have no idea what they're doing. They're still fumbling around and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. Since OLD SCHOOL seems to be rather niche when it comes to actual income of an MMO versus what could be if they could appeal to the mainstream player base, then something has to change to not only appeal to the larger audience, but to draw in the counless millions of dollars those mainstreamers would pay. Argue all you want, hardcore will never be mainstream. Currently they choose to build their games this way, but someday they will learn that a game is a game, it should sell on its own merits and not based on mechanics that create eliticism and a caste system. What normal person would want to even start playing a game that automatically discounts you for your play style and yet charges you just as much money as the no-lifing smuck who gets every benefit of the game?
I already know this isn't my game, I've made that quite clear, you're the one who seems to be unable to grasp my argument. These devs set trends in the industry, its time they take responsibility for that. Brad keeps stressing about going back to old school "core" play styles. In my opinion, that's taking steps backwards for the whole genre, it upsets me because they do influence the whole market and I despise this move back to hardcore. The financing companies are already afraid to invest in new ventures, what picture does it paint them when the devs themselves are afraid or plain unwilling to try something new, to try and appeal to the countless potential gamers who are obviously not hardcore. I can't imagine half of my friends ever playing a MMO that forces you to give up ridiculous amounts of time in order to get anywhere in a game. Its no wonder they call us nerds, who in their right minds would applaud this kind of mentality? Sometimes I get the impression these games are geared to misdirect and addict players, where the entertainment value is secondary and almost inconsequential. Its all about keeping the subscriptions with the least amount of work and the least amount of quality for the greatest monetary return and maybe a bit of dev ego thrown into the mix.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
i never claim i am right
but again you are not getting my point.
If the developers make a crappy game, that caters only to one section of players (or a niche section as you call it), then the game will not make enough money and die out. and the developers will learn from that.
but it is the developers CHOICE to go down that road. to make the game how THEY think is best. don't you agree?
if they are wrong, they pay for it, but it is their mistake to make.
Some of the guys at Sigil are veterans. They have been working on MMOs since the early days of EQ - which was probably around 1995 or so when it went into development. some of them have been working on MUDs before that, which is about as veteran as you can get when it comes to computer games in general.
What normal person would want to even start playing a game that automatically discounts you for your play style and yet charges you just as much money as the no-lifing smuck who gets every benefit of the game?
No normal person would want to start a game that does not cater to that persons playstyle. No normal person is forced to play that game and pay for it either. That does not only include games that cater for hard core raiders, but the same goes for games that primarily caters to crafters or groupers etc. You still sound like you will be forced to play this game.
I've made that quite clear, you're the one who seems to be unable to grasp my argument. These devs set trends in the industry, its time they take responsibility for that. Brad keeps stressing about going back to old school "core" play styles. In my opinion, that's taking steps backwards for the whole genre, it upsets me because they do influence the whole market and I despise this move back to hardcore.
No i grasp your point really clearly. You are a casual player, you were hoping that Vanguard was for you, and currently you think it is not (incidentally, are you in the Beta? have you actually PLAYED the game?). And because you think the game is not what you WANT it to be, you whine and bitch about how evil developers ruin the industry.
First of all - do you have ANY evidence that backs up your claim that Vanguard is influencing the whole market to move back to hardcore. I mean are there any interviews and or news articles from other games that state "Vanguard is going hardcore, we will do the same!" - if so, i have not seen any.
Secondly - if one game goes hard core, whats it to you? just don't play it and find a game does caters to your playing needs. if ONE game caters to all hard core people, and all these evil evil hard core people go play that game, you might be able to really truely enjoy the game you finally choose without having to deal with these evil evil hard core people.
Thirdly - all press statements and game info as well as beta logs and user posts i have seen about Vanguard suggest that it will NOT ONLY cater to hard core, but there will be plenty to do for the casual player. So again, have you actually played the game yourself?
The financing companies are already afraid to invest in new ventures, what picture does it paint them when the devs themselves are afraid or plain unwilling to try something new, to try and appeal to the countless potential gamers who are obviously not hardcore.
Again i would really appreciate some evidence (perhaps a statement by a finance company?) to the above. Vanguard found financing, Warhammer found financing, LotR found financing - all these new MMOs find financing quite easily as far as i can see. As for developers not willing to try something new - excuse me? every new MMO has some new features and incorporates new ideas, developers constantly push the boundaries of MMOs. Just look at the features list of Vanguard for crying out loud! How about the diplomacy thing - something new right there!
I can't imagine half of my friends ever playing a MMO that forces you to give up ridiculous amounts of time in order to get anywhere in a game. Its no wonder they call us nerds, who in their right minds would applaud this kind of mentality?
Well you and half of your friends won't play a game that requires huge time sinks then. Good on you. Thats called consumer choice. And pretty much any kind of regular games player (let that be MMO or anything else) could be called a Nerd - so what.
Sometimes I get the impression these games are geared to misdirect and addict players, where the entertainment value is secondary and almost inconsequential. Its all about keeping the subscriptions with the least amount of work and the least amount of quality for the greatest monetary return and maybe a bit of dev ego thrown into the mix.
Hrmm well of course companies want to keep people playing their games and get the subscription fees. but that applies to every online game and a game that caters to casual players will be no different there i think. I would not necessarily link this with least amount of quality though.
Overall summary:
You are obviously a casual gamer. For some reason you obviously think that Vanguard will cater primarily to hardcore players. That angers you, because you obviously thought that Sigil should develop a game for you personaly and to fit your playstyle. So now you blame everything on the bad bad developers who are money hungry and create a poor quality game that caters to the evil evil hardcore players that will pay and subscribe for months on end, because they are nerds and have nothing better to do.
That about sum it up?
Again: i would REALLY be interested if you are in the beta or not. Because if you are not, then i don't think you can actually have any judgement over the game at all ( i am not in and i resever my judgement on the game until after i have played it for at least a month).
Also, for the things quoted above, your blanket statements, i would really appreciate some hard fact evidence.
cheers!
ZeGerman
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
as for the rest:
you still have not elaborated whether you are in beta or not, in fact you seem to have ignored that point completely, in which case i assume that you are not in beta. and if you have not played the game yet, i really wonder how you can judge the game and already know exactly which direction it is taking.
with regards to evidence, i disagree. if you make claims such as you did (MMO devs having a hard time finding finance, etc) then really it's up to you to provide the facts, and not tell me to go look it up.