the problem lies in the community, not the game. If the community wants to level to 60 asap then you don't have anyone to run Zul Farrak with and you end up just grinding to level as well.
if you want to get in small skirmishs but all the other fools just want to get in 100 man gangs and shoot at POS's then you're left trying to solo fight which makes it so all you can really do is gank miners in Delve until 12 people show up in local.
it would be nice if you say had a game popular enough to justify 150+ servers that you try and split them up more, raiding server, people who think battlegrounds are lame server, chicks who want to lead a guild server, people who call other people hun all the time server, Horde only server, etc. I think it would be a worthwhile experiment, and I for one would love to play on a server on a Horde only unable to flag pvp/duel or join battlegrounds server.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
That was pretty entertaining sarcasm. I enjoyed the read.
I do want to say that I do enjoy the games content and story arcs. I have played CoX since the beginning and finally have a level 50 Tank. Some of it is alt-itis and some of it is that I play about 3-4 hours per week on CoH, and about 1 hour per week on CoV.
Some of it did ring true though, and this is the point at which I will be accused of being a fanboi of one game or another... CoX, fun from the outset, WoW, fun from the beginning. Lineage 2 (and a pile of other Korean MMOs), "gets fun around level 10 (or was it level 20?)." Games should be interesting and fun without spending 10 or more hours getting to the "good stuff."
Originally posted by JackDonkey the problem lies in the community, not the game. If the community wants to level to 60 asap then you don't have anyone to run Zul Farrak with and you end up just grinding to level as well.
If the game is designed right, both the "give me experiences, not exp" and the "level 60 or bust" people can enjoy it simultaenously. Work it out so that players can still make accomplishments, earn titles or something to that nature, but at the same time not involve the trite and boring mechanisms that past games have used.
Have a game that no one levels in, but by completing certain trials, you can still obtain 'level titles' that would be synonymous to the tiered colored-belt system in karate -- a green belt does not mean that you are exactly at the level of all other greens, but simply that you have at least the amount of skill and potential that gaining that title earned you. You avoid the simple increase-level problems that turn the game's characters into mere spreadsheet with pretty faces
Lunar - I actually have no opinion regarding this site running adds for PL companies. The companies will exist with or without this sites advertisments.
I agree that the community is what drives a game. If the community, in general, approach a game as a race to the end, then that is what it will be. My question to the posters here is " What suggestions, ideas or innovations do you think could be implented in a MMORPG to make the journey more important than the destination?"
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Had this conversation an awful lot of times now and it is a bit of a never ending circle in terms of trying to resolve the issues that MMO's present the player.
Higher level = greater abilities/ better gear etc etc - and can spank lower levels into dust on pvp servers.
all of this drives players into trying to level, which is actually a clear aim of the game, it isnt actually possible to stay at a lower level unless you are really interested in farming boars and chicken wings :P
My personal solution is simple - create an MMO that does not allow higher level players to return to lower level content - especially instances...make them pay for tredmilling 50000000 gnomes to bypass the content by not letting em see it again. Would be so simple to put an upper level cap on instnces the same way most have a lower one.
Not a complete solution but may make some people stop and smell the roses rather than rampage through the flowerbeds to get to the next level
It's sad that people would pay to play a game only to get to the end game. If that is the case, why play. Especially if you are going to pay someone else, they strut around for a few days in the "epic armor" then just quit and look for another game to do the same. Alot of gamers play the game to enjoy not only the world around them as they level but the people they meet and the community they build. If you have to have instant gratification in a game, movie ect. what does that say about your life?
It's sad that people would pay to play a game only to get to the end game. If that is the case, why play.
OK, stories have starts and ends. Don't you ever want to find out what happens to the band of brave heroes at the end of the story? Did they complete their quest successfully? Did they achieve their goals? Is it sad that people want to know what happens at the end? The journey is pretty pointless without any sort of outcome. It's like jokes with no punchlines, spots game with no winner, stories where you never know if the guy got the girl!
But in response to your statement more specifically, if there is an end, yes, people pay to play to the end of it, just like you pay to watch a movie to the end of it. You don't pay to watch the first 2/3 of a movie repeatedly.
Another way to look at it is, some people don't play to get TO the end game, they play to the end game, because that's where they want to play. The end game. More on that later.
Especially if you are going to pay someone else, they strut around for a few days in the "epic armor" then just quit and look for another game to do the same.
That doesn't even make sense (neither did the OP that it's referring to).
Alot of gamers play the game to enjoy not only the world around them as they level but the people they meet and the community they build.
Take WoW for example, you can't enjoy half or more of the game til you get to the level cap. If raiding is your thing, not just playhing with a few other people here and there, but playing with large groups, raiding parties, then that's the part of the game you're interested in. Maybe you'll put up with the rest of the game to get to the part you want. Maybe you'll pay someone else to put up with it for you, ESPECIALLY if you've already been through it several times.
It can also be hard in ANY game to do any real PvP unless you're at the level cap, since there are always going to be players above you in level, given innate abilities to destroy you. Everybody in PvP being at level cap goes a long way to "leveling the playing field" and bringing it back to more of a skill based game, not "I've spent more time playing than you". WoW is kind of broken in this way. You can play at the level cap 5 times as long as it took you to get to the level cap and still not have the best gear. With the massive spread in stats on gear AT the level cap, someone who just hit 60 vs someone who's been 60 for a year or more... the person that just hit 60 is likely at a serious disadvantage.
As for enjoying the people you meet and the community they build, it doesn't matter if you're playing 1-level cap or you just start at the level cap. What matters is if you take the time to meet other people, no matter what it is you're doing or what level you are. Even if that's just hanging out in whatever centrally located area of the game where everybody meets. You may not even level at all, but can still end up making new friends, discussing interesting subjects, etc. The community and camaraderie happen regardless of your level.
If you have to have instant gratification in a game, movie ect. what does that say about your life?
Movies ARE instant gratification, when you compare them to the time required by an average game or book. 2 hours is a pretty short time. Some people take issue with playing for several months just to hit level cap, where they will then play for months to years.
Which brings up a more general flaw with this entire thread. Too many people are confusing "the end" with "level cap". Plenty of people will say that in WoW, DAoC, FFXI, the game doesn't really start for them til you hit level cap, because there's so much content or just things to do in general that you can't even do til you're at level cap, whether it's PvP, end game bosses, raid zones, etc. (note: this may apply to other MMOs as well, but the only other MMO I've reached level cap in is AO, and it's not all that interesting at level cap). This is why most people use the term "end game". It's the game at the level cap, the end of your leveling. When someone asks "What's the end game like?", they usually want to know what the game is like when you reach level cap, because you ARE going to hit it if you continue to play long enough, but does it end? The answer these days is usually, no it does not end when you hit level cap and as I already noted, in some games it's the start of a whole new game or for some people, THE game.
BTW, what DOES the want for instant gratification say about one's life? For that matter, what does it have to do with this discussion? Starting at level cap is not about the gratification of achieving level cap. It's about playing the game AT level cap. I'd find it very, very strange if ANYBODY ever felt that buying their way to level cap and buying the best gear in the game money can buy gave them any gratification at all. I believe it's more a means to an end. You have something you'd like to do, but you have to meet the requirements to be able to do it first. Again, if raiding is your thing, you need to be level cap and have decent gear to start. If end game PvP is your thing, you need to be at level cap and have gear/abilities on par with the people you're playing against.
These games have become more about having than about doing, to their detriment. Personally I want to see a game where the only items you get are off mobs you personally kill (i.e., bind on pickup/no drop). Will that end the player economy? Yes. And that's what I want. I log on to fight dragons, not to shop.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I have to admit I did enjoy this article, Certainly not a viewpoint I've seen much of, making it fascinating to read. However, if you play just to get to the end of an MMORPG doesn't that take some of the fun out of it? BTW: I think sarcasm in an article like this doesn't work as well when it's written. I think it works better when you hear someone using it. Just something I noticed.
Incase you didn't notice, the whole topic was about instant gratification. Not all game playing is about the END. Just becuase you finish a quest and see if the hero gets the girl or guy for that matter does not mean the game is over. There is more to it then that. Maybe not for you. Some people actually choose games they can play for longterm and enjoy them. They develop relationships with people on the other end of the online world in the game and enjoy their time either playing with or against them. They even enjoy the rain and butterflies that they can see and not really interact with, just for the sake of seeing them. Maybe, instead of just a movie its a series to them. The whole point I was trying to make was that some people like the challenge of a game, they like to work for what they get, they enjoy the whole 9 yards it takes to get to where they are going so that they can enjoy the after party that they so justly deserve after they kill the dragon that they fought so hard to get to once they wear their "epic armor" and "strut about". Then after they recieve their "epic armor" they stay in the game and pick up a new hobby so they can hang around and mentor their newbie friends who join the game. And yes, these are people who also only have a few hours a week to give to the game as well.
Originally posted by Distortion0 Sarcasm+Aticle/=/Good Atricle. Especially if the conent is just rehashed. Not to mention nobody on the internet getts sarcasm anymore and you're replies will mostly consist of 'NO!' and 'What is this guy smoking?' I could see if you were replying to someone, that might make yor sarcasm witty but this is just poor littiture. Even more poor than my spelling. Wow, I think I have a new hobby out of flaming these editorials.
Lunar - I actually have no opinion regarding this site running adds for PL companies. The companies will exist with or without this sites advertisments.
I agree that the community is what drives a game. If the community, in general, approach a game as a race to the end, then that is what it will be. My question to the posters here is " What suggestions, ideas or innovations do you think could be implented in a MMORPG to make the journey more important than the destination?"
you have to look at 2 different games (or maybe aspects of the same game)
1. the story driven game (ddo): you have a very small part of the community that actually wants to race because by winning the race you cut yourselfe of from the story wich is the motivation in itselve. playing ddo is not about leveling your char as fast as you can but experiencing the stories/quests the game has to offer. possible improvements: - more quests - increased complexity of quests - including some "rare" or "uncommen" quests that you cant just browse up on a website/questguide - some variables in quests that can change so a walkthrue is worthless and a quest can be interesting a 2nd time
2. competative/pvp games (lineage2) you have the mayority of the community to race to highest level to pwn someone. to often time spend and not skill matters, to often quests are repetitive grind and the story is ignored. without encouraging competition in the same lvl (char lvl/ time budget) the char lvl is the motivation behind the game possible improvements: - split competition into "leagues" of players so cometition happens on equal terms. it would lessen the lvling pressure if you would mostly fight ppl your own strength trying to be the best in your lvl range - split servers into hardcore/ limited time servers so you know what you have to invest as a casual gamer.
3. mixed games (wow): well i dont really know if they should try to bring the improvements from both the story and competitive games or just decide to put their fokus on 1 aspekt only.
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
I agree with what you are saying. There is something wrong with a game if people are paying others to gather money, and level up their toons. It means the game sucks.
No. Barriers are useful and powerful. The problem with most MMOs is they misuse them. Not that they do use them.
Just like a well written story its about pacing. Unfortunately everyone has a bit different take on pacing. But everyone agrees certain books are arduous to get through and some books you simply breeze through and you don't realize you just read 300 pages.
The pacing in MMO is about rewards there is no art to it. And that is why they are often so atrocious in this regard.
And this is the sole reason people like WoW 1-59 to a significant degree they paced it well. Once that pacing goes away, people being to actively hate the game. Well part of that hatred is raiding too. So its a little hard to separate.
Mr. Fitzgerald, what if Nancy MacIntyre, John Smedley, or any other games executive out there read this, and used your words on this score to justify an NGE? Or a cancellation? We like to think that sarcasm on "the internets" is a lost art, but I would say that sarcasm, parody, and irreverent cuteness is all too common. What we really need are good opinions, with facts, and conviction.
If this was sarcasm, then I didn't see it. The opinions are just too definitive and evidenced to not take it seriously, even if it was never meant to be. Not when it ends like this:
"Ultimately, games should be designed for people like me. I have a job and a family and limited time to devote to my beloved hobby, therefore I deserve instant gratification when I login. Those of you who have so much free time to spend on frivolous quests and exploration are the minority. You can wish and hope all you want for your "Innovative" games, but it's my money and the money of busy people like me who will continue to drive the MMORPG development trends. Give me easy, give me fast and save all of your innovation for some gamer who actually has time to stop and smell the virtual roses."
...and? Give me a reason to think that this notion is absurd, or contrary to common sense. As of now, it may please, or rather displease us, that while we can put such things in the commentary section for the sake of jest, the industry reads this, and thinks it is true.
Since the article ends at this point, the only assumption I can make if I read this article, and nothing else, is that we generally feel this way, and really do want simpler, less "massive" games. Perhaps that is why the industry is giving them to us, or seek to dumb down their games that are already complicated.
Despite the best intentions of Mr. Fitzgerald, this commentary may very well be taken as a serious statement, given with all sincerety. When a producer wants to change a designer's game to draw more customers, or to push a project out early, how would we like it if he linked this article intended as satire, but taken as genuine?
What would you do if Richard Perry from Acclaim searched for MMORPG design articles on "the google," and found this article honest, truthful, and a good study into what we want from our games?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 "Ultimately, games should be designed for people like me. I have a job and a family and limited time to devote to my beloved hobby, therefore I deserve instant gratification when I login. Those of you who have so much free time to spend on frivolous quests and exploration are the minority. You can wish and hope all you want for your "Innovative" games, but it's my money and the money of busy people like me who will continue to drive the MMORPG development trends. Give me easy, give me fast and save all of your innovation for some gamer who actually has time to stop and smell the virtual roses."
...and? Give me a reason to think that this notion is absurd, or contrary to common sense.
The absurdity of the article stems from the realization that most people who play video games, do NOT do so for the gear. Or at least, they didn't until "raiding" and "end-game" content became popular. We used to play games to enjoy ourselves, to make friends, to tell a story. We used to play games to craft our own story, to tell to our friends later. With games like WoW, I see people ruining their lives, quite literally, over a few virtual trophies. People are buying/selling fake online money/items to get an edge over people who just want to enjoy themselves.
"Those of you who have so much free time to spend on frivolous quests and exploration are the minority."
The quests ARE the game. The exploration IS the game. If you just want to prove that you're better than me, why are you even here?
The solution we need is not to hand these greedy bastards the game on a silver platter, but force them to open their eyes and realize that they're demeaning the entire purpose of video games in general. If you want to compete, go play an RTS or FPS. Those of us playing RPGs are here to carve out a piece of these worlds for ourselves, and I hate seeing it cheapened with forced gameplay and linear progression.
A beautiful bit of sarcasm that not only reflects the mindset of some gamers (and in many cases, rightly so, because the grind of the game itself is so utterly devoid of redeeming value that one has only the endgame's allure to merit a subscription), but reminds me of exactly what I seek in a MMOG. I enjoy a game that does not simply ask me to insert minutes and promises to reward me with levels (this is the formula one gets from uninspired gameplay against uninspired mobs for lackluster leveling rewards that continues until the level cap). A good game must instantly grab me with something, and then keep shaking me at regular intervals with that same thrill that initially grabbed me. Add to that a dynamic that only improves with more people on your team, and I'm even more impressed, but I find that part optional. If the solo game is better than the group game, that's fine with me, as I know that all should be having a good time, regardless of how social they might be. How much actual grind it takes to reach endgame status is irrelevant. All a game needs to do is wrap the grind in enough enjoyment that I'm not aware of it to the degree that I resent it.
Editorials like this provide a great service to anyone seeking to create a new MMOG, in that they remind those people of the ultimate goal: fun! If you want to create a game where all the fun resides at the end of a huge grind, that's fine, but expect people to pay extra to buy accounts that have already had that done for them. In fact, if you want to make MORE money, do the grinding yourself and offer higher priced premium accounts with endgame characters already added to the account. If you'd rather see people unable to bring themselves to cancel their subscriptions, month after month, then give us great gameplay, great content, and a solid community-building staff that ensure that no matter how much time you have to play a game, the fun will always outweigh the grind.
Originally posted by brostyn I agree with what you are saying. There is something wrong with a game if people are paying others to gather money, and level up their toons. It means the game sucks.
Do I ever agree with you. One thing I love to ask raiders is would they continue to raid ifthey got all the items from the run on thier first time through? Personnaly if I enoy doing something then the rewards matter little. If I don't enjoy doing something then the rewards for doing it start to become more important.
Originally posted by delateur In fact, if you want to make MORE money, do the grinding yourself and offer higher priced premium accounts with endgame characters already added to the account.
Hmmm, this gave me an idea. What about an MMO where the trip to endgame is free (this could only work on level based system), but when you reach the final level, your character becomes flaged for PVP and permadeath mechanism kicks in. Permadeath, but not permadeath, because if and when you finaly die, your charcter goes on a special auction where anyone who bought the game can bid for him, even the original player. But there should be something like 10% of profit goes to the original owner....
So what you get is free (and hopefuly fun) leveling expirience, and realy hardcore endgame where sudenly everything is a chalenge, because, hey, you can't stay forever in your capital, toon with more gear is gona be worth more etc etc
Originally posted by SonofSeth Originally posted by delateur In fact, if you want to make MORE money, do the grinding yourself and offer higher priced premium accounts with endgame characters already added to the account.
Hmmm, this gave me an idea. What about an MMO where the trip to endgame is free (this could only work on level based system), but when you reach the final level, your character becomes flaged for PVP and permadeath mechanism kicks in. Permadeath, but not permadeath, because if and when you finaly die, your charcter goes on a special auction where anyone who bought the game can bid for him, even the original player. But there should be something like 10% of profit goes to the original owner.... So what you get is free (and hopefuly fun) leveling expirience, and realy hardcore endgame where sudenly everything is a chalenge, because, hey, you can't stay forever in your capital, toon with more gear is gona be worth more etc etc
Yes, that's the sort of idea which will create innovation in games like these. For myself, the journey is more important than the conclusion (level cap), so for me, this would be a nice feature. I'd enjoy the journey, and at the end, I'd auction myself off using an approved in-game system which would transfer my character with all his assets (or a good portion of them, as I think some bequeathing of assets to new toons should be an option) to some other player. Such a system should work on a 50/50 basis, with half going to the player (they did do all the work, and will lose access to that beloved character forever) and half going to the company. This would ensure the game's longevity as well as the player's enjoyment, if the endgame and/or PVP does not appeal to him or her.
Comments
wants to level to 60 asap then you don't have anyone to run Zul Farrak
with and you end up just grinding to level as well.
if you want to get in small skirmishs but all the other fools just want
to get in 100 man gangs and shoot at POS's then you're left trying to
solo fight which makes it so all you can really do is gank miners in
Delve until 12 people show up in local.
it would be nice if you say had a game popular enough to justify 150+
servers that you try and split them up more, raiding server, people who
think battlegrounds are lame server, chicks who want to lead a guild
server, people who call other people hun all the time server,
Horde only server, etc. I think it would be a worthwhile
experiment, and I for one would love to play on a server on a Horde
only unable to flag pvp/duel or join battlegrounds server.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
I do want to say that I do enjoy the games content and story arcs. I have played CoX since the beginning and finally have a level 50 Tank. Some of it is alt-itis and some of it is that I play about 3-4 hours per week on CoH, and about 1 hour per week on CoV.
Some of it did ring true though, and this is the point at which I will be accused of being a fanboi of one game or another... CoX, fun from the outset, WoW, fun from the beginning. Lineage 2 (and a pile of other Korean MMOs), "gets fun around level 10 (or was it level 20?)." Games should be interesting and fun without spending 10 or more hours getting to the "good stuff."
If the game is designed right, both the "give me experiences, not exp" and the "level 60 or bust" people can enjoy it simultaenously. Work it out so that players can still make accomplishments, earn titles or something to that nature, but at the same time not involve the trite and boring mechanisms that past games have used.
Have a game that no one levels in, but by completing certain trials, you can still obtain 'level titles' that would be synonymous to the tiered colored-belt system in karate -- a green belt does not mean that you are exactly at the level of all other greens, but simply that you have at least the amount of skill and potential that gaining that title earned you. You avoid the simple increase-level problems that turn the game's characters into mere spreadsheet with pretty faces
Project Delta
Lunar - I actually have no opinion regarding this site running adds for PL companies. The companies will exist with or without this sites advertisments.
I agree that the community is what drives a game. If the community, in general, approach a game as a race to the end, then that is what it will be. My question to the posters here is " What suggestions, ideas or innovations do you think could be implented in a MMORPG to make the journey more important than the destination?"
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Had this conversation an awful lot of times now and it is a bit of a never ending circle in terms of trying to resolve the issues that MMO's present the player.
Higher level = greater abilities/ better gear etc etc - and can spank lower levels into dust on pvp servers.
all of this drives players into trying to level, which is actually a clear aim of the game, it isnt actually possible to stay at a lower level unless you are really interested in farming boars and chicken wings :P
My personal solution is simple - create an MMO that does not allow higher level players to return to lower level content - especially instances...make them pay for tredmilling 50000000 gnomes to bypass the content by not letting em see it again. Would be so simple to put an upper level cap on instnces the same way most have a lower one.
Not a complete solution but may make some people stop and smell the roses rather than rampage through the flowerbeds to get to the next level
OK, stories have starts and ends. Don't you ever want to find out what happens to the band of brave heroes at the end of the story? Did they complete their quest successfully? Did they achieve their goals? Is it sad that people want to know what happens at the end? The journey is pretty pointless without any sort of outcome. It's like jokes with no punchlines, spots game with no winner, stories where you never know if the guy got the girl!
But in response to your statement more specifically, if there is an end, yes, people pay to play to the end of it, just like you pay to watch a movie to the end of it. You don't pay to watch the first 2/3 of a movie repeatedly.
Another way to look at it is, some people don't play to get TO the end game, they play to the end game, because that's where they want to play. The end game. More on that later.
That doesn't even make sense (neither did the OP that it's referring to).
Take WoW for example, you can't enjoy half or more of the game til you get to the level cap. If raiding is your thing, not just playhing with a few other people here and there, but playing with large groups, raiding parties, then that's the part of the game you're interested in. Maybe you'll put up with the rest of the game to get to the part you want. Maybe you'll pay someone else to put up with it for you, ESPECIALLY if you've already been through it several times.
It can also be hard in ANY game to do any real PvP unless you're at the level cap, since there are always going to be players above you in level, given innate abilities to destroy you. Everybody in PvP being at level cap goes a long way to "leveling the playing field" and bringing it back to more of a skill based game, not "I've spent more time playing than you". WoW is kind of broken in this way. You can play at the level cap 5 times as long as it took you to get to the level cap and still not have the best gear. With the massive spread in stats on gear AT the level cap, someone who just hit 60 vs someone who's been 60 for a year or more... the person that just hit 60 is likely at a serious disadvantage.
As for enjoying the people you meet and the community they build, it doesn't matter if you're playing 1-level cap or you just start at the level cap. What matters is if you take the time to meet other people, no matter what it is you're doing or what level you are. Even if that's just hanging out in whatever centrally located area of the game where everybody meets. You may not even level at all, but can still end up making new friends, discussing interesting subjects, etc. The community and camaraderie happen regardless of your level.
Movies ARE instant gratification, when you compare them to the time required by an average game or book. 2 hours is a pretty short time. Some people take issue with playing for several months just to hit level cap, where they will then play for months to years.
Which brings up a more general flaw with this entire thread. Too many people are confusing "the end" with "level cap". Plenty of people will say that in WoW, DAoC, FFXI, the game doesn't really start for them til you hit level cap, because there's so much content or just things to do in general that you can't even do til you're at level cap, whether it's PvP, end game bosses, raid zones, etc. (note: this may apply to other MMOs as well, but the only other MMO I've reached level cap in is AO, and it's not all that interesting at level cap). This is why most people use the term "end game". It's the game at the level cap, the end of your leveling. When someone asks "What's the end game like?", they usually want to know what the game is like when you reach level cap, because you ARE going to hit it if you continue to play long enough, but does it end? The answer these days is usually, no it does not end when you hit level cap and as I already noted, in some games it's the start of a whole new game or for some people, THE game.
BTW, what DOES the want for instant gratification say about one's life? For that matter, what does it have to do with this discussion? Starting at level cap is not about the gratification of achieving level cap. It's about playing the game AT level cap. I'd find it very, very strange if ANYBODY ever felt that buying their way to level cap and buying the best gear in the game money can buy gave them any gratification at all. I believe it's more a means to an end. You have something you'd like to do, but you have to meet the requirements to be able to do it first. Again, if raiding is your thing, you need to be level cap and have decent gear to start. If end game PvP is your thing, you need to be at level cap and have gear/abilities on par with the people you're playing against.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Heidi
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Just like a well written story its about pacing. Unfortunately everyone has a bit different take on pacing. But everyone agrees certain books are arduous to get through and some books you simply breeze through and you don't realize you just read 300 pages.
The pacing in MMO is about rewards there is no art to it. And that is why they are often so atrocious in this regard.
And this is the sole reason people like WoW 1-59 to a significant degree they paced it well. Once that pacing goes away, people being to actively hate the game. Well part of that hatred is raiding too. So its a little hard to separate.
Mr. Fitzgerald, what if Nancy MacIntyre, John Smedley, or any other games executive out there read this, and used your words on this score to justify an NGE? Or a cancellation? We like to think that sarcasm on "the internets" is a lost art, but I would say that sarcasm, parody, and irreverent cuteness is all too common. What we really need are good opinions, with facts, and conviction.
If this was sarcasm, then I didn't see it. The opinions are just too definitive and evidenced to not take it seriously, even if it was never meant to be. Not when it ends like this:
"Ultimately, games should be designed for people like me. I have a job and a family and limited time to devote to my beloved hobby, therefore I deserve instant gratification when I login. Those of you who have so much free time to spend on frivolous quests and exploration are the minority. You can wish and hope all you want for your "Innovative" games, but it's my money and the money of busy people like me who will continue to drive the MMORPG development trends. Give me easy, give me fast and save all of your innovation for some gamer who actually has time to stop and smell the virtual roses."
...and? Give me a reason to think that this notion is absurd, or contrary to common sense. As of now, it may please, or rather displease us, that while we can put such things in the commentary section for the sake of jest, the industry reads this, and thinks it is true.
Since the article ends at this point, the only assumption I can make if I read this article, and nothing else, is that we generally feel this way, and really do want simpler, less "massive" games. Perhaps that is why the industry is giving them to us, or seek to dumb down their games that are already complicated.
Despite the best intentions of Mr. Fitzgerald, this commentary may very well be taken as a serious statement, given with all sincerety. When a producer wants to change a designer's game to draw more customers, or to push a project out early, how would we like it if he linked this article intended as satire, but taken as genuine?
What would you do if Richard Perry from Acclaim searched for MMORPG design articles on "the google," and found this article honest, truthful, and a good study into what we want from our games?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The absurdity of the article stems from the realization that most people who play video games, do NOT do so for the gear. Or at least, they didn't until "raiding" and "end-game" content became popular. We used to play games to enjoy ourselves, to make friends, to tell a story. We used to play games to craft our own story, to tell to our friends later. With games like WoW, I see people ruining their lives, quite literally, over a few virtual trophies. People are buying/selling fake online money/items to get an edge over people who just want to enjoy themselves.
The quests ARE the game. The exploration IS the game. If you just want to prove that you're better than me, why are you even here?
The solution we need is not to hand these greedy bastards the game on a silver platter, but force them to open their eyes and realize that they're demeaning the entire purpose of video games in general. If you want to compete, go play an RTS or FPS. Those of us playing RPGs are here to carve out a piece of these worlds for ourselves, and I hate seeing it cheapened with forced gameplay and linear progression.
A beautiful bit of sarcasm that not only reflects the mindset of some gamers (and in many cases, rightly so, because the grind of the game itself is so utterly devoid of redeeming value that one has only the endgame's allure to merit a subscription), but reminds me of exactly what I seek in a MMOG. I enjoy a game that does not simply ask me to insert minutes and promises to reward me with levels (this is the formula one gets from uninspired gameplay against uninspired mobs for lackluster leveling rewards that continues until the level cap). A good game must instantly grab me with something, and then keep shaking me at regular intervals with that same thrill that initially grabbed me. Add to that a dynamic that only improves with more people on your team, and I'm even more impressed, but I find that part optional. If the solo game is better than the group game, that's fine with me, as I know that all should be having a good time, regardless of how social they might be. How much actual grind it takes to reach endgame status is irrelevant. All a game needs to do is wrap the grind in enough enjoyment that I'm not aware of it to the degree that I resent it.
Editorials like this provide a great service to anyone seeking to create a new MMOG, in that they remind those people of the ultimate goal: fun! If you want to create a game where all the fun resides at the end of a huge grind, that's fine, but expect people to pay extra to buy accounts that have already had that done for them. In fact, if you want to make MORE money, do the grinding yourself and offer higher priced premium accounts with endgame characters already added to the account. If you'd rather see people unable to bring themselves to cancel their subscriptions, month after month, then give us great gameplay, great content, and a solid community-building staff that ensure that no matter how much time you have to play a game, the fun will always outweigh the grind.
Hmmm, this gave me an idea. What about an MMO where the trip to endgame is free (this could only work on level based system), but when you reach the final level, your character becomes flaged for PVP and permadeath mechanism kicks in. Permadeath, but not permadeath, because if and when you finaly die, your charcter goes on a special auction where anyone who bought the game can bid for him, even the original player. But there should be something like 10% of profit goes to the original owner....
So what you get is free (and hopefuly fun) leveling expirience, and realy hardcore endgame where sudenly everything is a chalenge, because, hey, you can't stay forever in your capital, toon with more gear is gona be worth more etc etc
So what you get is free (and hopefuly fun) leveling expirience, and realy hardcore endgame where sudenly everything is a chalenge, because, hey, you can't stay forever in your capital, toon with more gear is gona be worth more etc etc
Yes, that's the sort of idea which will create innovation in games like these. For myself, the journey is more important than the conclusion (level cap), so for me, this would be a nice feature. I'd enjoy the journey, and at the end, I'd auction myself off using an approved in-game system which would transfer my character with all his assets (or a good portion of them, as I think some bequeathing of assets to new toons should be an option) to some other player. Such a system should work on a 50/50 basis, with half going to the player (they did do all the work, and will lose access to that beloved character forever) and half going to the company. This would ensure the game's longevity as well as the player's enjoyment, if the endgame and/or PVP does not appeal to him or her.