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MMOs and difficulty level
Antipathy
Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
On another thread, a player complained that " I'm sick of all these
games coming out which offer no challenge". There are also plenty of
other comments on this board about MMO's being dumbed down, or
complaining at the excessive number of children in games such as WoW
and Guild Wars.
Some degree of dumbing down is inevitable. In search of higher profits,
game companies will continually try to increase numbers by appealing to
the main stream. Games will be created for people with average or
slightly below average intelligence, in much the same way as a great
deal of TV and popular music aims for these markets (although there are
a few high quality examples of both).
However isn't this
slightly ridiculous? Expecting a PhD physicist with fighter pilot
reflexes to play the same game as an eight year old? I understand why
games should be developed for as wide a variety of people as possible,
because economies of scale are very important for software, but why
can't we ensure that everyone is challenged?
Alot of single
player games allow players to select a difficulty level when they
create their characters. Why can't MMOs do the same? I want the option
to play on a hard mode server, where every mob does 50% more damage and
has a 20% higher aggro radius. Or why not have easy "family" servers,
where the monsters only hit half as hard, and hardly ever aggro.
I want PvE that is challenging in some respect other than "how long can you grind today".
games coming out which offer no challenge". There are also plenty of
other comments on this board about MMO's being dumbed down, or
complaining at the excessive number of children in games such as WoW
and Guild Wars.
Some degree of dumbing down is inevitable. In search of higher profits,
game companies will continually try to increase numbers by appealing to
the main stream. Games will be created for people with average or
slightly below average intelligence, in much the same way as a great
deal of TV and popular music aims for these markets (although there are
a few high quality examples of both).
However isn't this
slightly ridiculous? Expecting a PhD physicist with fighter pilot
reflexes to play the same game as an eight year old? I understand why
games should be developed for as wide a variety of people as possible,
because economies of scale are very important for software, but why
can't we ensure that everyone is challenged?
Alot of single
player games allow players to select a difficulty level when they
create their characters. Why can't MMOs do the same? I want the option
to play on a hard mode server, where every mob does 50% more damage and
has a 20% higher aggro radius. Or why not have easy "family" servers,
where the monsters only hit half as hard, and hardly ever aggro.
I want PvE that is challenging in some respect other than "how long can you grind today".
Comments
Yeah well go onto any of the various Guild Wars fansites such as Guild Wars Guru and look at all the complaining that happens whenever Anet makes the mobs act less like idiots. Since the update last night the complaining is just plain silly. Now a lot of GW people like it too, sure. But just look at the whiners its ridiculous.
I don't whether people love or hate that particular game. Seriously take a long hard look at some of those people's arguments.
Apparently monsters aren't supposed to be trying to kill you by any means necessary they are simply supposed to follow a set forumla and be utterly predictable.
I mean we wouldn't want anyone to be uncomfortable or I dunno use formations or knockdowns or snares to protect people would we?
City of Heroes actually does let you re-set the difficulty to some extent, though you can't make it easier than the base default (but you can make it much harder). You could argue that their definition of "harder" leaves a lot to be desired (and I would, in fact, argue that), but at least they make the effort. The trade-off is, when you set it harder, you are fighting higher level mobs = more experience per mob. Also, harder missions give you a bigger "mission XP bonus" for completing them.
I think this is a good first stab at the problem, and I hope more MMORPGs go this route in the future. With the spread of instancing, there is just no reason why they can't make instances scale dynamically to the difficulty level preferences of the player.
C
I beleive the formula for success is "Easy to get into and hard to master".
Some games are both Hard to get into and hard to master and that turns away alot of potential fans.
(eve comes to mind)
Easy to get into and easy to master is too simple and also turns away players. (f2p anime games)
But if you developers can create a game that is relatively easy to get into and hard to master then your player base has the possibility of being much more broad.
As far as a difficulty setting for mmos, no thanks.
I want mobs that are just as difficult to kill as thinking opponents. That makes it fun and strategic.
GW fans complaining of AI being too smart...rofl thats hillarious.
You want that. Not everyone does.
That makes it fun and strategic.
Personally, I agree with you... I want smarter AI and a good solid challenge. But not everyone does, and that is exactly why a "difficulty setting" makes so much sense. As long as you get more reward for the harder setting, why complain that someone else is playing on Easy mode?
C
You want that. Not everyone does.
That makes it fun and strategic.
Makes it fun and strategic FOR YOU... again, not everyone feels that way.
Personally, I agree with you... I want smarter AI and a good solid challenge. But not everyone does, and that is exactly why a "difficulty setting" makes so much sense. As long as you get more reward for the harder setting, why complain that someone else is playing on Easy mode?
C
Ofcourse "I" want that. "I" WAS THE ONE THAT WROTE "MY" POST.
Seriously, did you have to point that out?
Think about this for a moment....if you had a chance to get your gear MUCH quicker would you?
Would most people?
And if more difficult DOESNT mean smarter AI, what does it mean? Ill tell ya, mobs that take longer to kill and hit harder. That didnt really change the difficulty. That just changed the ammount of time it took.
Let me say it clearer this time,
A DIFFICULTY SETTING IN MMO'S IS A TERRRRRRRIBLE IDEA
The more combinations of skills, equipment, classes, and enviroments in a game, the harder it is to master.
Chess is harder than Draughts. It's all in the permutations.
PvP is always another story because humans are mostly unpredictable so every engagement is just a little different even if there are tactics that work better then others.
Eventually A.I will be powerful enough to be virtually dynamic but that's still a ways off so until then it's PvP for me.
==========
SWG - 1st Gen MBH (Closed)
EVE (Closed)
WoW (61 Orc Hunter - Blackwing Lair)
GuildWars (Boring...)
For example, the rules of Go are considerably simpler than the rules of chess - there is only really one type of piece (compared with six types in chess and two in draughts). However, from my understanding the play is every bit as complex.
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And if more difficult DOESNT mean smarter AI, what does it mean? Ill tell ya, mobs that take longer to kill and hit harder. That didnt really change the difficulty. That just changed the ammount of time it took.
Let me say it clearer this time,
A DIFFICULTY SETTING IN MMO'S IS A TERRRRRRRIBLE IDEA
Smarter AI's would be a great solution. However possibly not the only one.
At the moment, very skilled players can perfom ridiculous feats in games such as WoW. For example, Scholomance was originally designed to offer a challenge to a five man party of level 60 players. I have seen a video of a single shadow priest soloing all the bosses in that instance. Clearly not everyone is being challenged.
I would like to be put in situations where one tactic doesn't work for every fight. Where I have to think, instead of rinse and repeat. I would like to fail a little more often, discuss tactics with my group, and then come back and succeed a second or third time. Somehow that's far more satisfying for me than breezing through everything at the first attempt.
I can to an extent understand the "extra time" argument. With open ended MMOs you can set your own difficulty level by lowering ones sights and fighting monsters a few levels lower. Maybe a hard difficulty server would have to do something about that - e.g. by reducing the level range of mobs that give xp, or presenting players with more dynamic challenges, which are out of their control (e.g. a few random attacks by mobs of the same level as you are every now and again).
On the other hand, I believe one of the main advantages to a "hard" difficulty server is that the playerbase will be self selecting. Alot of less skilled players and children would select to play on easy or average difficulty. Hence it may be easier to form teams that are capable of handling difficult content.
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Define "challenge" first of all.
To a dumb person a thinking game is a challenge.
To an uncoordinated person, moving a mouse around quickly is a challenge.
To an impatient person, grinding endless mobs to level up is a challenge.
Of course challenge means different things to different people. The point of having difficulty levels is that different people can select for themselves what they find challenging.
I recongnise you won't be able to create a set of difficulty settings to keep everyone happy. But why not at least consider taking a step in a direction other than "you can have any difficulty you want as long as it's average" (to paraphrase a famous quote about Ford cars).
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The obvious and easy answer is multiple servers with different rulesets.
EQ1 did that to some extent and was fairly successful with it. I have always wondered why other MMOGs with large playerbases and the demand for a more difficult setting haven't offered them. It's not that hard to tweak certain mechanics and add/change some rulesets of an existing game on an individual server. Games like WoW would be able to hold onto more of the veteran gamers if they did this.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Well a "role playing" game first of all is about depending on a character skill not player skill.
So how you do make something like that challenging?
Mind puzzles (which nobody seems to want to complete themselves, so they use spoiler sites like ala kazam)
Grinding (which has always existed)
and basically that it.
There is no other type of challenge you can throw at em.
If people want real player skills, they dont play RPG's, they play FPS.
So there you go, all the different types of "challenge" pick your poison.
Well roleplaying and depending on character skill would also mean having a significant battle loss penalty, something a lot of MMOGs have sacrificed to attract instant gratification type players.. Games like WoW and EQ2 are a joke when it comes to battle loss. You are hardly even inconvenienced, usually just a temporary stat loss, big deal.
Having a significant and more realistically painful battle loss penalty offers challenge and promotes a more immersive environment where people will think before they leap, strategize, interact with others for information, and create a healthy respect for your surroundings. That is one example which is easy to implement on an individual server.
Realistic travel times and limited carrying/fatigue ability is another example which make a MMOG more challenging and reign in thought provoking planning and opportunity cost choices, again more realism. Those are also easy to implement on an individual server.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I find it very hard to get into the head of people who only think of RPGs in terms of "How much do you have to grind and where". Perhaps the sort of challenges I'd like to see are:
Being forced to use teamwork
Having to use different abilities according to the situation.
Reacting quickly to new or changing circumstances (e.g. adds)
What I'd like to see is a new player asking a veteran "My gear is better than you had at level 40, and yet I can't seem to beat the grue. How did you do it?".
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