Originally posted by tillamook Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by tillamook TKM was easy to take down if you kited them. It was the combination of CM that made them uber. It still didn't mean they were invincible if you caught one off guard.*image removed*
Not if you were a commando :P
To some professions, TKM was nearly unbeatable, to FOTM templates...no, but not every profession was adaptable to a FOTM template, otherwise we would never have had FOTMs.
I agree that that Helios' criticism of TKA is too harsh...it was a great profession, but it did have abilities that made it "unbalanced" (to use the term lightly). If only these flaws in pre-CU were corrected and modified...rather than the whole system being scrapped for the CU... Commando wasn't so bad in the CU with the armor break and such. But yeah they stunk in PvP. I think there were really only like 3 or 4 PvP playable profs out there that people stuck with, kinda like now :P But if you knew what you were doing you could make any prof fun to play and competitive IMHO. I was Master BH/pistols 0-0-2-0, Scout 4-0-0-1/medic 2-0-0-1 in that picture I think. Not really a FOTM. I was talking about Pre-CU...and we didn't have an armour break in the CU :P, we wanted one...but we didn't have one. Our weapons only produced blindness (acid weapons), fire dots (flamers, HLC), and knockdowns (RLs). And we absolutely sucked in both PvE and PvP if we didn't have another ranged profession to actually give us specials (which we had none)...which was an issue, since a part of our pre-reqs was UA IV and we had melee mods in our profession...so a melee commando was absolutely worthless.
Its kinda ironic, we gained the range, some of the utility, and finally combined HW mods (pre-CU our speed/accuracy were horrible because it wasn't combined...we had FT mods, HAR mods, etc), and the necessary defenses to supplement the best damage dealing profession ever...but lost all of our damage! Soe devs are the epitome of ironic code monkeys
Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by tillamook Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by tillamook TKM was easy to take down if you kited them. It was the combination of CM that made them uber. It still didn't mean they were invincible if you caught one off guard.*image removed*
Not if you were a commando :P
To some professions, TKM was nearly unbeatable, to FOTM templates...no, but not every profession was adaptable to a FOTM template, otherwise we would never have had FOTMs.
I agree that that Helios' criticism of TKA is too harsh...it was a great profession, but it did have abilities that made it "unbalanced" (to use the term lightly). If only these flaws in pre-CU were corrected and modified...rather than the whole system being scrapped for the CU... Commando wasn't so bad in the CU with the armor break and such. But yeah they stunk in PvP. I think there were really only like 3 or 4 PvP playable profs out there that people stuck with, kinda like now :P But if you knew what you were doing you could make any prof fun to play and competitive IMHO. I was Master BH/pistols 0-0-2-0, Scout 4-0-0-1/medic 2-0-0-1 in that picture I think. Not really a FOTM. I was talking about Pre-CU...and we didn't have an armour break in the CU :P, we wanted one...but we didn't have one. Our weapons only produced blindness (acid weapons), fire dots (flamers, HLC), and knockdowns (RLs). And we absolutely sucked in both PvE and PvP if we didn't have another ranged profession to actually give us specials (which we had none)...which was an issue, since a part of our pre-reqs was UA IV and we had melee mods in our profession...so a melee commando was absolutely worthless.
Its kinda ironic, we gained the range, some of the utility, and finally combined HW mods (pre-CU our speed/accuracy were horrible because it wasn't combined...we had FT mods, HAR mods, etc), and the necessary defenses to supplement the best damage dealing profession ever...but lost all of our damage! Soe devs are the epitome of ironic code monkeys Welcome to the club!
Helios's arrogance is really pissing a lot of people off. They couldn't be bothered to try to fix anything UNTIL NOW, when they have a game framework that sucks.
Every time he posts, with his complete lack of respect or tact, people cancel. That is a good thing, every Helios post is one closer to shutdown or classic servers.
There is something called decorum. Which Helios has obviously never learned. Even though what he says is valid. Technically aslong as you spend the same number of skillpoints as someone else on the combat side you should be equal. Unfortunately that was not always true in Pre Cu, and often a player ended up haveing to rely on luck to win, an engagement. Thats why even a modest estimate put the number of TKM near then end of Pre Cu at a whopping eighty percent of the population.
I think the problem on the melee side came when they brought about the damage increase to those professions, but forget to decrease the defense accordingly. These professions were initially designed as tanks, and not damage dealers. Ranged professions were damage dealers, but not able to tank. Once you have a profession that can do both well you got something awesome. Ranged professions were hard pressed especially when increadibly strong buffs made the picture.
There is a valid argument. People even made a point to copy combat logs to display exactly how unbalanced it was. I agree with a great deal of skill you could beat just about anyone. The problem is it should never take a great deal of skill to beat an idiot. Not all TKM were idiots, but almost every idiot was a TKM. Just smart enough to find the I win profession.
I do find is ridiculous that Helios points this out when the way they unrolled expertise was even more heinous. They literally decided to handicap entire player classes in the name of expedience.
His statement really pissed me off to the point I cancelled an account today. The other stuff he and Cao have said has been horrible, but this really got to me for some reason.
He just bases game on pvp and 'hypothetical balance'.
at least for me an MMO means NO BALANCE, why? Cause I elect a profession because I like it and not cause if it is uber or not.
' You could be what you wanted to be' it is your election.
who can say my scout was less fun for me than all other ubers templates?
I remember a new m8 of my guild who got lvl 80 bh in Mos Lowlands in 3 weeks, He lost vs all jedis and 1 month later was crying in the forums NERF ¡¡¡ lol Thats one of the kind of people who destroyed galaxies.
Personally I think that cause of the way that some developers have expressed themselves when writing posts since about 1 month or so---------->it is like if they were nervous or in other words ' like if you knew the ship is going to sink''
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by tillamook Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by tillamook TKM was easy to take down if you kited them. It was the combination of CM that made them uber. It still didn't mean they were invincible if you caught one off guard.*image removed*
Not if you were a commando :P
To some professions, TKM was nearly unbeatable, to FOTM templates...no, but not every profession was adaptable to a FOTM template, otherwise we would never have had FOTMs.
I agree that that Helios' criticism of TKA is too harsh...it was a great profession, but it did have abilities that made it "unbalanced" (to use the term lightly). If only these flaws in pre-CU were corrected and modified...rather than the whole system being scrapped for the CU... Commando wasn't so bad in the CU with the armor break and such. But yeah they stunk in PvP. I think there were really only like 3 or 4 PvP playable profs out there that people stuck with, kinda like now :P But if you knew what you were doing you could make any prof fun to play and competitive IMHO. I was Master BH/pistols 0-0-2-0, Scout 4-0-0-1/medic 2-0-0-1 in that picture I think. Not really a FOTM. I was talking about Pre-CU...and we didn't have an armour break in the CU :P, we wanted one...but we didn't have one. Our weapons only produced blindness (acid weapons), fire dots (flamers, HLC), and knockdowns (RLs). And we absolutely sucked in both PvE and PvP if we didn't have another ranged profession to actually give us specials (which we had none)...which was an issue, since a part of our pre-reqs was UA IV and we had melee mods in our profession...so a melee commando was absolutely worthless.
Its kinda ironic, we gained the range, some of the utility, and finally combined HW mods (pre-CU our speed/accuracy were horrible because it wasn't combined...we had FT mods, HAR mods, etc), and the necessary defenses to supplement the best damage dealing profession ever...but lost all of our damage! Soe devs are the epitome of ironic code monkeys Welcome to the club!
Helios's arrogance is really pissing a lot of people off. They couldn't be bothered to try to fix anything UNTIL NOW, when they have a game framework that sucks.
Every time he posts, with his complete lack of respect or tact, people cancel. That is a good thing, every Helios post is one closer to shutdown or classic servers.
Welcome to the Club? :P Just because I was a corro then a senator doesn't mean Im just thinking that the devs are the epitome of irony now, its been years by now for me thinking that there are a thousand coding monkeys on typewriters at SOE...for me its a commando thing because those of us from the beginning have been pissed off for over 3 years at how the profession has been handled. Whats even more ironic is that im finally happy with how commando turned out...when considering how the rest of the game has fared.
However, Helios has done some good in the past and I wont knock that...but I do totally agree with that SOE as a whole generally contradicts itself at nearly every major step of development (-especially- with commando in the CU...should've seen some of the hell that was raised over that...).
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Commando was pretty decent once they got specials. I didn't have time to try it out off TC though thanks to the fact they dumped the NGE on us.
The CU was a mistake. The NGE was a cataclysm.
Any one of us who played the Pre-CU in 20 minutes could come up with an outline of changes that would address 90% of the problems.
Yeah, I tried out those Commando specials too-they weren't the best, but could have been worked on to make them greater.
Originally posted by anaic Originally posted by Wildcat84 Commando was pretty decent once they got specials. I didn't have time to try it out off TC though thanks to the fact they dumped the NGE on us.
The CU was a mistake. The NGE was a cataclysm.
Any one of us who played the Pre-CU in 20 minutes could come up with an outline of changes that would address 90% of the problems.
Yeah, I tried out those Commando specials too-they weren't the best, but could have been worked on to make them greater. Yep, the specials at master commando were no better damage wise than overcharge shot in marksman, -but- with more of a warm-up timer. The only stuff that Publish 24 gave us were a lot of much needed bug fixes (AoE for one), and then the really bad specials - but they were specials, so it would not have been difficult to just tweak the damage. But they weren't tweaked because the NGE hit 2 weeks later or so...
Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by anaic Originally posted by Wildcat84 Commando was pretty decent once they got specials. I didn't have time to try it out off TC though thanks to the fact they dumped the NGE on us.
The CU was a mistake. The NGE was a cataclysm.
Any one of us who played the Pre-CU in 20 minutes could come up with an outline of changes that would address 90% of the problems.
Yeah, I tried out those Commando specials too-they weren't the best, but could have been worked on to make them greater. Yep, the specials at master commando were no better damage wise than overcharge shot in marksman, -but- with more of a warm-up timer. The only stuff that Publish 24 gave us were a lot of much needed bug fixes (AoE for one), and then the really bad specials - but they were specials, so it would not have been difficult to just tweak the damage. But they weren't tweaked because the NGE hit 2 weeks later or so... Well, one hope for you, NGE development has become less than half assed over the last couple months, and they are barfing out the rest of expertise in a single publish (nothing for non combatants of course who I think willl NEVER receive expertise or revamp) to throw out the last of the NGE.
Unless the NGE does the impossible and gains 100,000 subs net before Christmas it's done. They either do classic, do a new core, or shut it down. NGE is a dead end that leads to eventually zero subs and they know it.
Any change to the game at this point has to be back to what we had. If they simplified it any more than it is the only profession would be Jedi, or there would be one profession with every skill and only one special "Iwin".
If they would have just left the game the way it was before the first CU and without the influx of Jedi, the game would have remained competitive. The introduction of the Hologrind and then the CU pretty much destroyed SWG.
Originally posted by Mordith If they would have just left the game the way it was before the first CU and without the influx of Jedi, the game would have remained competitive. The introduction of the Hologrind and then the CU pretty much destroyed SWG.
Jedi even would have been fine had they given them their own content (FRS was a start but shouldn't have been the end) that made them fight the Light/Dark faction war amongst themselves, seperate from the "grunt" (normal professions) GCW and introduced SEVERE risk for intervening... It's a new character, and you are essentially playing a new game, etc. Given how long it took to get Jedi and then full template, that would have had the effect of really adding content and life to the game.
Just like the main problems with the Pre-CU system, the Jedi problem can be solved by a thinking, reasonable person dedicating 30 minutes to the problem.
This helios guy may or may not know how to code, but his thinking can sure be flawed/biased etc. I had a TKM because I loved the meditate, and the cool combat animations, and knocking down rancors ^_^. Knocking down tortors on Rori also really made me laugh. I never PvPed with my TKM, so all that stuff helios said was completely irrelevant in my case.
Also, I know I"m not alone. We had a TKM temple (kinda like that old kung fu show with David Carradine ya know?) We trained others to be TKM's. We all did PVE together. We built a temple, had robes, candles, the whole shabbang . All that stuff Helios posted about TKM ("people played them because blah blah blah"). Had nothing to do with why any of us played it.
It was fun. That's why we played it, and we had a wicked role play deal going with it to. None of our group was looking for an "I win" button because PvP wasn't our thing.
Helios seems to think he knows what other people are thinking. He seems to think he knows what people want, and why people do what they do. Man that is so out to lunch, it's hard to put it into words. Does he really think he can know that kind of stuff? Maybe he does, and maybe that's one reason his community relations skills seem so out of whack. Maybe that's why some of the game directions are so out of whack to. This guy needs some hard core reality testing if you ask me.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Originally posted by Mordith If they would have just left the game the way it was before the first CU and without the influx of Jedi, the game would have remained competitive. The introduction of the Hologrind and then the CU pretty much destroyed SWG.
Jedi even would have been fine had they given them their own content (FRS was a start but shouldn't have been the end) that made them fight the Light/Dark faction war amongst themselves, seperate from the "grunt" (normal professions) GCW and introduced SEVERE risk for intervening... It's a new character, and you are essentially playing a new game, etc. Given how long it took to get Jedi and then full template, that would have had the effect of really adding content and life to the game.
Just like the main problems with the Pre-CU system, the Jedi problem can be solved by a thinking, reasonable person dedicating 30 minutes to the problem.
SOE/LEC has none of those.
All good points. I think the majority of the players pre-CU could have come up with a dozen different ways to improve the game without ripping the whole thing apart. Why they chose to ignore plausible solutions and instead elected to create the current debacle is beyond me.
SO are you guys really offended here , Or just glad you have something to talk about ? All anyone is saying here is "oh noes I didn't pvp "" What could he possibly be talking about " . All I see him doing is acknowledging the balance issues from before , By giving a few examples . ANd pointing out entertainer will not cross such boundaries with it's expertise .
Everyone here knows such problems existed , And TKM was one of the most widely used professions . I don't know who most of you played with in SWG, Or what servers you were on . But I can tell you right now on bloodfin , TKM's were as frequent as jedi are now . Most Bh's were such , Half the PVPers at times (FOTM followers) And most hardcore looters had it in their temp . WHY ? Because overall it was probably the most well rounded defensive and offensive profession . Not to mention its meditation line and small buff .
Is it really blind to SWGs structure to consider it a PVP based game ? PVP is not just about FIGHTING ! Economy wars are also considered to be PVP . You are actually in competition with players with a similar goal to your own . Be it crafting , making tips as a dancer , Offering the best buffs and heals ,Offering the best supply of Hides and Milks and other looted components .
So many aspects of SWG were structured through player conflict , Much in the same way UO and EVE are.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Mordith Originally posted by Wildcat84 Originally posted by Mordith If they would have just left the game the way it was before the first CU and without the influx of Jedi, the game would have remained competitive. The introduction of the Hologrind and then the CU pretty much destroyed SWG.
Jedi even would have been fine had they given them their own content (FRS was a start but shouldn't have been the end) that made them fight the Light/Dark faction war amongst themselves, seperate from the "grunt" (normal professions) GCW and introduced SEVERE risk for intervening... It's a new character, and you are essentially playing a new game, etc. Given how long it took to get Jedi and then full template, that would have had the effect of really adding content and life to the game.
Just like the main problems with the Pre-CU system, the Jedi problem can be solved by a thinking, reasonable person dedicating 30 minutes to the problem.
SOE/LEC has none of those.
All good points. I think the majority of the players pre-CU could have come up with a dozen different ways to improve the game without ripping the whole thing apart. Why they chose to ignore plausible solutions and instead elected to create the current debacle is beyond me. WOW had a polished game , Because it was simple and easy to manage . With SWG this is not the case , And would be so with any game of its type . the only people equipped with the knowledge to run a game like SWG IMO would be those who built it and were extremely familiar with it . You can't forget most developers are not Raph esque so to speak . This is common in any career , There are those who do it and those who excel at it .
Most of SWG's staff at present most likely are interns and fresh college grads . With a few "old Timers around to oversee" It would also not be surprising if SOE did have their "Worst " developers on the project at this point . On the Job training is so much more cost efficient .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Everyone here knows such problems existed , And TKM was one of the most widely used professions . I don't know who most of you played with in SWG, Or what servers you were on . But I can tell you right now on bloodfin , TKM's were as frequent as jedi are now . Most Bh's were such , Half the PVPers at times (FOTM followers) And most hardcore looters had it in their temp . WHY ? Because overall it was probably the most well rounded defensive and offensive profession . Not to mention its meditation line and small buff ."
I'll agree that problems existed.. however, I don't agree with the part about how everyone knows on every server etc.
Starsider.. the first name I really heard about in PvP I don't even remember his name now. I know he had two at-st's before that got changed. Anyway I saw him running around Coronet he was an Imperial. He must have killed about 100 rebels. He was a BH... plain and simple. Using a macro to change weapons so he'd use the knockdown that I think was in carbine and then switch to eye shot. Half the time i saw him he had what appeared to be a doc strapped to his butt... but he was never TKM.
Later on... there was easily on the pvp side.. more RifleMen/CM's than tka anything. As far as any single template that was used widely.
For duels it varied a lot. As you'd see more melee.. most people that were at base wars that *I* saw even if I wasn't taking part in it.. were not melee professions in any way (ie: tka).
I am not going to deny that I saw a lot of TKM's but that was a phase at least on Starsider. Then it passed and people got into doing other things.
The issue for me was never if the game had issues.. it was the fact they never really tried to fix those issues and just tossed it all away.
Buff caps, defense caps etc etc.. fixes and content would have done far more for the game than CU.. NGE or trying to tell us it wasn't as good as we remember.
It may not be but obviously more of us were willing to pay for it then.. which in the end is about all that matters.
Am I just making this up or do I remember a note from SOE between CU and NGE detailing which professions were played most to least? There was a clear implication that those played the least didn't warrant dev support.
This was part of their "reasoning" for the change to 9 iconic profs. (After all a medic based on a freaking droid is really iconic isn't it.)
So if "everyone" played rifleman and TKM, then WHY DID YOU TAKE THEM AWAY IDIOTS?
IT WAS FUN... thats right, FUN! -- it was great it was a good class you would do with somthing else/ but at the same time it was just plain fun and you could function for all parties and things you did.
I look at this and actually say "So what" that it had some broken issues..., if that was the case then why in the fuck did they not address it?
It is one thing to make a point of somthing being broke in the past, but then it is hard to deny that most things were more fun and working overall for us in the past.
Helios and his moronic point of using KD knockdown is FAR less of a issue then me aggroing everything I click on in a Star Port with a saber for 10 mins hitting thin air... BUT he forgets to mention all his issues he has with the NGE.
I have to wonder where he came from, because in the Chicago Market where I am... the IT field would have considered him a retard and moved on. He is not even one to consider to work on some simple projects where I'm from. His concepts, testing and project managment of things is either controled by a team of Monkeys or he has no idea what is going on.
TKM was fun, seeing him make fun of somthing being broke on it is a joke, considering the whole NGE.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Comments
To some professions, TKM was nearly unbeatable, to FOTM templates...no, but not every profession was adaptable to a FOTM template, otherwise we would never have had FOTMs.
I agree that that Helios' criticism of TKA is too harsh...it was a great profession, but it did have abilities that made it "unbalanced" (to use the term lightly). If only these flaws in pre-CU were corrected and modified...rather than the whole system being scrapped for the CU...
Commando wasn't so bad in the CU with the armor break and such. But yeah they stunk in PvP. I think there were really only like 3 or 4 PvP playable profs out there that people stuck with, kinda like now :P But if you knew what you were doing you could make any prof fun to play and competitive IMHO. I was Master BH/pistols 0-0-2-0, Scout 4-0-0-1/medic 2-0-0-1 in that picture I think. Not really a FOTM.
I was talking about Pre-CU...and we didn't have an armour break in the CU :P, we wanted one...but we didn't have one. Our weapons only produced blindness (acid weapons), fire dots (flamers, HLC), and knockdowns (RLs). And we absolutely sucked in both PvE and PvP if we didn't have another ranged profession to actually give us specials (which we had none)...which was an issue, since a part of our pre-reqs was UA IV and we had melee mods in our profession...so a melee commando was absolutely worthless.
Its kinda ironic, we gained the range, some of the utility, and finally combined HW mods (pre-CU our speed/accuracy were horrible because it wasn't combined...we had FT mods, HAR mods, etc), and the necessary defenses to supplement the best damage dealing profession ever...but lost all of our damage! Soe devs are the epitome of ironic code monkeys
To some professions, TKM was nearly unbeatable, to FOTM templates...no, but not every profession was adaptable to a FOTM template, otherwise we would never have had FOTMs.
I agree that that Helios' criticism of TKA is too harsh...it was a great profession, but it did have abilities that made it "unbalanced" (to use the term lightly). If only these flaws in pre-CU were corrected and modified...rather than the whole system being scrapped for the CU...
Commando wasn't so bad in the CU with the armor break and such. But yeah they stunk in PvP. I think there were really only like 3 or 4 PvP playable profs out there that people stuck with, kinda like now :P But if you knew what you were doing you could make any prof fun to play and competitive IMHO. I was Master BH/pistols 0-0-2-0, Scout 4-0-0-1/medic 2-0-0-1 in that picture I think. Not really a FOTM.
I was talking about Pre-CU...and we didn't have an armour break in the CU :P, we wanted one...but we didn't have one. Our weapons only produced blindness (acid weapons), fire dots (flamers, HLC), and knockdowns (RLs). And we absolutely sucked in both PvE and PvP if we didn't have another ranged profession to actually give us specials (which we had none)...which was an issue, since a part of our pre-reqs was UA IV and we had melee mods in our profession...so a melee commando was absolutely worthless.
Its kinda ironic, we gained the range, some of the utility, and finally combined HW mods (pre-CU our speed/accuracy were horrible because it wasn't combined...we had FT mods, HAR mods, etc), and the necessary defenses to supplement the best damage dealing profession ever...but lost all of our damage! Soe devs are the epitome of ironic code monkeys
Welcome to the club!
Helios's arrogance is really pissing a lot of people off. They couldn't be bothered to try to fix anything UNTIL NOW, when they have a game framework that sucks.
Every time he posts, with his complete lack of respect or tact, people cancel. That is a good thing, every Helios post is one closer to shutdown or classic servers.
There is something called decorum. Which Helios has obviously never learned. Even though what he says is valid. Technically aslong as you spend the same number of skillpoints as someone else on the combat side you should be equal. Unfortunately that was not always true in Pre Cu, and often a player ended up haveing to rely on luck to win, an engagement. Thats why even a modest estimate put the number of TKM near then end of Pre Cu at a whopping eighty percent of the population.
I think the problem on the melee side came when they brought about the damage increase to those professions, but forget to decrease the defense accordingly. These professions were initially designed as tanks, and not damage dealers. Ranged professions were damage dealers, but not able to tank. Once you have a profession that can do both well you got something awesome. Ranged professions were hard pressed especially when increadibly strong buffs made the picture.
There is a valid argument. People even made a point to copy combat logs to display exactly how unbalanced it was. I agree with a great deal of skill you could beat just about anyone. The problem is it should never take a great deal of skill to beat an idiot. Not all TKM were idiots, but almost every idiot was a TKM. Just smart enough to find the I win profession.
I do find is ridiculous that Helios points this out when the way they unrolled expertise was even more heinous. They literally decided to handicap entire player classes in the name of expedience.
His statement really pissed me off to the point I cancelled an account today. The other stuff he and Cao have said has been horrible, but this really got to me for some reason.
Helios is an idiot ¡¡
He just bases game on pvp and 'hypothetical balance'.
at least for me an MMO means NO BALANCE, why? Cause I elect a profession because I like it and not cause if it is uber or not.
' You could be what you wanted to be' it is your election.
who can say my scout was less fun for me than all other ubers templates?
I remember a new m8 of my guild who got lvl 80 bh in Mos Lowlands in 3 weeks, He lost vs all jedis and 1 month later was crying in the forums NERF ¡¡¡ lol Thats one of the kind of people who destroyed galaxies.
Could it be the SOE devs are intentionally pissing people off because they are soon to lose control of SWG to Bioware?
Personally I think that cause of the way that some developers have expressed themselves when writing posts since about 1 month or so---------->it is like if they were nervous or in other words ' like if you knew the ship is going to sink''
To some professions, TKM was nearly unbeatable, to FOTM templates...no, but not every profession was adaptable to a FOTM template, otherwise we would never have had FOTMs.
I agree that that Helios' criticism of TKA is too harsh...it was a great profession, but it did have abilities that made it "unbalanced" (to use the term lightly). If only these flaws in pre-CU were corrected and modified...rather than the whole system being scrapped for the CU...
Commando wasn't so bad in the CU with the armor break and such. But yeah they stunk in PvP. I think there were really only like 3 or 4 PvP playable profs out there that people stuck with, kinda like now :P But if you knew what you were doing you could make any prof fun to play and competitive IMHO. I was Master BH/pistols 0-0-2-0, Scout 4-0-0-1/medic 2-0-0-1 in that picture I think. Not really a FOTM.
I was talking about Pre-CU...and we didn't have an armour break in the CU :P, we wanted one...but we didn't have one. Our weapons only produced blindness (acid weapons), fire dots (flamers, HLC), and knockdowns (RLs). And we absolutely sucked in both PvE and PvP if we didn't have another ranged profession to actually give us specials (which we had none)...which was an issue, since a part of our pre-reqs was UA IV and we had melee mods in our profession...so a melee commando was absolutely worthless.
Its kinda ironic, we gained the range, some of the utility, and finally combined HW mods (pre-CU our speed/accuracy were horrible because it wasn't combined...we had FT mods, HAR mods, etc), and the necessary defenses to supplement the best damage dealing profession ever...but lost all of our damage! Soe devs are the epitome of ironic code monkeys
Welcome to the club!
Helios's arrogance is really pissing a lot of people off. They couldn't be bothered to try to fix anything UNTIL NOW, when they have a game framework that sucks.
Every time he posts, with his complete lack of respect or tact, people cancel. That is a good thing, every Helios post is one closer to shutdown or classic servers.
Welcome to the Club? :P Just because I was a corro then a senator doesn't mean Im just thinking that the devs are the epitome of irony now, its been years by now for me thinking that there are a thousand coding monkeys on typewriters at SOE...for me its a commando thing because those of us from the beginning have been pissed off for over 3 years at how the profession has been handled. Whats even more ironic is that im finally happy with how commando turned out...when considering how the rest of the game has fared.
However, Helios has done some good in the past and I wont knock that...but I do totally agree with that SOE as a whole generally contradicts itself at nearly every major step of development (-especially- with commando in the CU...should've seen some of the hell that was raised over that...).
The CU was a mistake. The NGE was a cataclysm.
Any one of us who played the Pre-CU in 20 minutes could come up with an outline of changes that would address 90% of the problems.
Yep, the specials at master commando were no better damage wise than overcharge shot in marksman, -but- with more of a warm-up timer. The only stuff that Publish 24 gave us were a lot of much needed bug fixes (AoE for one), and then the really bad specials - but they were specials, so it would not have been difficult to just tweak the damage. But they weren't tweaked because the NGE hit 2 weeks later or so...
Yep, the specials at master commando were no better damage wise than overcharge shot in marksman, -but- with more of a warm-up timer. The only stuff that Publish 24 gave us were a lot of much needed bug fixes (AoE for one), and then the really bad specials - but they were specials, so it would not have been difficult to just tweak the damage. But they weren't tweaked because the NGE hit 2 weeks later or so...
Well, one hope for you, NGE development has become less than half assed over the last couple months, and they are barfing out the rest of expertise in a single publish (nothing for non combatants of course who I think willl NEVER receive expertise or revamp) to throw out the last of the NGE.
Unless the NGE does the impossible and gains 100,000 subs net before Christmas it's done. They either do classic, do a new core, or shut it down. NGE is a dead end that leads to eventually zero subs and they know it.
Any change to the game at this point has to be back to what we had. If they simplified it any more than it is the only profession would be Jedi, or there would be one profession with every skill and only one special "Iwin".
Jedi even would have been fine had they given them their own content (FRS was a start but shouldn't have been the end) that made them fight the Light/Dark faction war amongst themselves, seperate from the "grunt" (normal professions) GCW and introduced SEVERE risk for intervening... It's a new character, and you are essentially playing a new game, etc. Given how long it took to get Jedi and then full template, that would have had the effect of really adding content and life to the game.
Just like the main problems with the Pre-CU system, the Jedi problem can be solved by a thinking, reasonable person dedicating 30 minutes to the problem.
SOE/LEC has none of those.
This helios guy may or may not know how to code, but his thinking can sure be flawed/biased etc. I had a TKM because I loved the meditate, and the cool combat animations, and knocking down rancors ^_^. Knocking down tortors on Rori also really made me laugh. I never PvPed with my TKM, so all that stuff helios said was completely irrelevant in my case.
Also, I know I"m not alone. We had a TKM temple (kinda like that old kung fu show with David Carradine ya know?) We trained others to be TKM's. We all did PVE together. We built a temple, had robes, candles, the whole shabbang
. All that stuff Helios posted about TKM ("people played them because blah blah blah"). Had nothing to do with why any of us played it.
It was fun. That's why we played it, and we had a wicked role play deal going with it to. None of our group was looking for an "I win" button because PvP wasn't our thing.
Helios seems to think he knows what other people are thinking. He seems to think he knows what people want, and why people do what they do. Man that is so out to lunch, it's hard to put it into words. Does he really think he can know that kind of stuff? Maybe he does, and maybe that's one reason his community relations skills seem so out of whack. Maybe that's why some of the game directions are so out of whack to. This guy needs some hard core reality testing if you ask me.
ARC3
Just like the main problems with the Pre-CU system, the Jedi problem can be solved by a thinking, reasonable person dedicating 30 minutes to the problem.
SOE/LEC has none of those.
All good points. I think the majority of the players pre-CU could have come up with a dozen different ways to improve the game without ripping the whole thing apart. Why they chose to ignore plausible solutions and instead elected to create the current debacle is beyond me.
Everyone here knows such problems existed , And TKM was one of the most widely used professions . I don't know who most of you played with in SWG, Or what servers you were on . But I can tell you right now on bloodfin , TKM's were as frequent as jedi are now . Most Bh's were such , Half the PVPers at times (FOTM followers) And most hardcore looters had it in their temp . WHY ? Because overall it was probably the most well rounded defensive and offensive profession . Not to mention its meditation line and small buff .
Is it really blind to SWGs structure to consider it a PVP based game ? PVP is not just about FIGHTING ! Economy wars are also considered to be PVP . You are actually in competition with players with a similar goal to your own . Be it crafting , making tips as a dancer , Offering the best buffs and heals ,Offering the best supply of Hides and Milks and other looted components .
So many aspects of SWG were structured through player conflict , Much in the same way UO and EVE are.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just like the main problems with the Pre-CU system, the Jedi problem can be solved by a thinking, reasonable person dedicating 30 minutes to the problem.
SOE/LEC has none of those.
All good points. I think the majority of the players pre-CU could have come up with a dozen different ways to improve the game without ripping the whole thing apart. Why they chose to ignore plausible solutions and instead elected to create the current debacle is beyond me.
WOW had a polished game , Because it was simple and easy to manage . With SWG this is not the case , And would be so with any game of its type . the only people equipped with the knowledge to run a game like SWG IMO would be those who built it and were extremely familiar with it . You can't forget most developers are not Raph esque so to speak . This is common in any career , There are those who do it and those who excel at it .
Most of SWG's staff at present most likely are interns and fresh college grads . With a few "old Timers around to oversee" It would also not be surprising if SOE did have their "Worst " developers on the project at this point . On the Job training is so much more cost efficient .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Everyone here knows such problems existed , And TKM was one of the most widely used professions . I don't know who most of you played with in SWG, Or what servers you were on . But I can tell you right now on bloodfin , TKM's were as frequent as jedi are now . Most Bh's were such , Half the PVPers at times (FOTM followers) And most hardcore looters had it in their temp . WHY ? Because overall it was probably the most well rounded defensive and offensive profession . Not to mention its meditation line and small buff ."
I'll agree that problems existed.. however, I don't agree with the part about how everyone knows on every server etc.
Starsider.. the first name I really heard about in PvP I don't even remember his name now. I know he had two at-st's before that got changed. Anyway I saw him running around Coronet he was an Imperial. He must have killed about 100 rebels. He was a BH... plain and simple. Using a macro to change weapons so he'd use the knockdown that I think was in carbine and then switch to eye shot. Half the time i saw him he had what appeared to be a doc strapped to his butt... but he was never TKM.
Later on... there was easily on the pvp side.. more RifleMen/CM's than tka anything. As far as any single template that was used widely.
For duels it varied a lot. As you'd see more melee.. most people that were at base wars that *I* saw even if I wasn't taking part in it.. were not melee professions in any way (ie: tka).
I am not going to deny that I saw a lot of TKM's but that was a phase at least on Starsider. Then it passed and people got into doing other things.
The issue for me was never if the game had issues.. it was the fact they never really tried to fix those issues and just tossed it all away.
Buff caps, defense caps etc etc.. fixes and content would have done far more for the game than CU.. NGE or trying to tell us it wasn't as good as we remember.
It may not be but obviously more of us were willing to pay for it then.. which in the end is about all that matters.
Am I just making this up or do I remember a note from SOE between CU and NGE detailing which professions were played most to least? There was a clear implication that those played the least didn't warrant dev support.
This was part of their "reasoning" for the change to 9 iconic profs. (After all a medic based on a freaking droid is really iconic isn't it.)
So if "everyone" played rifleman and TKM, then WHY DID YOU TAKE THEM AWAY IDIOTS?
A few things that were not mentioned..
I played TKM did it twice... why?
IT WAS FUN... thats right, FUN! -- it was great it was a good class you would do with somthing else/ but at the same time it was just plain fun and you could function for all parties and things you did.
I look at this and actually say "So what" that it had some broken issues..., if that was the case then why in the fuck did they not address it?
It is one thing to make a point of somthing being broke in the past, but then it is hard to deny that most things were more fun and working overall for us in the past.
Helios and his moronic point of using KD knockdown is FAR less of a issue then me aggroing everything I click on in a Star Port with a saber for 10 mins hitting thin air... BUT he forgets to mention all his issues he has with the NGE.
I have to wonder where he came from, because in the Chicago Market where I am... the IT field would have considered him a retard and moved on. He is not even one to consider to work on some simple projects where I'm from. His concepts, testing and project managment of things is either controled by a team of Monkeys or he has no idea what is going on.
TKM was fun, seeing him make fun of somthing being broke on it is a joke, considering the whole NGE.
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I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
bah, soe
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
And Helios teaches Game Developement at the local High School..or was it College?
I fear for the future of game developement...