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deterministic PvE really boring...

zollenzollen Member Posts: 351
in World of Warcraft

Here are the common tatics employed by players to beat any PvE oriented game.

1. Bring specific skills/classes just to counter a specific PvE scenario
2. Bring enough players/firepowers to overcome a specific PvE scenario
3. Exploit PvE bugs or logic fault
4. Exploit PvE replayilbity, keeping trying until players win.

99% outcomes of the PvE scenarios already been determined/known before players even set foot on the PvE scenarios (i.e. dungeons..etc), because players use one or more of above tatics.

I can only have the following conclusion:
PvE scenarios are designed to "let players win".


With computer powers of million calculations per second. Any computers can easily beat us. I accept the fact that computers are "dumbed down" to entertain us. But there is no reason not making games a little bit challenging.


I am hoping to see some truely adaptive PvE scenarios where the difficulties/challenges are dynamically adjusted depends on the amount of players and compositions of players team. So the outcome of EVERY PvE scenario would be 50%/50%. (players win 50% of the time and computer win 50% of the time). Anyone know any PvE MMORPGs that have this win/loss raio???
image

Comments

  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490
    Raiding sometimes has that ratio I think..
    If it was normal activities like levelling up then good AI wouldn't be very well received as the battle is a massive treadmill not the invidividual encounters. Change that and then the good AI would be welcommed, possibly.



  • WendoXXXWendoXXX Member CommonPosts: 165



    Originally posted by zollen
    Here are the common tatics employed by players to beat any PvE oriented game.

    1. Bring specific skills/classes just to counter a specific PvE scenario
    2. Bring enough players/firepowers to overcome a specific PvE scenario
    3. Exploit PvE bugs or logic fault
    4. Exploit PvE replayilbity, keeping trying until players win.

    99% outcomes of the PvE scenarios already been determined/known before players even set foot on the PvE scenarios (i.e. dungeons..etc), because players use one or more of above tatics.

    I can only have the following conclusion:
    PvE scenarios are designed to "let players win".


    With computer powers of million calculations per second. Any computers can easily beat us. I accept the fact that computers are "dumped down" to entertain us. But there is no reason not making games a little bit challenging.


    I am hoping to see some truely adaptive PvE scenarios where the difficulties/challenges are dynamically adjusted depends on the amount of players and compositions of players team. So the outcome of EVERY PvE scenario would be 50%/50%. (players win 50% of the time and computer win 50% of the time). Anyone know any PvE MMORPGs that have this win/loss raio???
    image

    Well u must be in one hell of a guild if u clear all of Nax, AQ and dont find it a bit challanging since several of the top guild have been stuck on the 4horsemen for several months.What guild are u in btw? i understand that u must be in one since only a complete idiot would say that a game is to easy whitout having cleared it.

    image
    Which FF Character Are You?

  • zollenzollen Member Posts: 351
    Originally posted by WendoXXX
    Originally posted by zollen
    Here are the common tatics employed by players to beat any PvE oriented game.

    1. Bring specific skills/classes just to counter a specific PvE scenario
    2. Bring enough players/firepowers to overcome a specific PvE scenario
    3. Exploit PvE bugs or logic fault
    4. Exploit PvE replayilbity, keeping trying until players win.

    99% outcomes of the PvE scenarios already been determined/known before players even set foot on the PvE scenarios (i.e. dungeons..etc), because players use one or more of above tatics.

    I can only have the following conclusion:
    PvE scenarios are designed to "let players win".


    With computer powers of million calculations per second. Any computers can easily beat us. I accept the fact that computers are "dumped down" to entertain us. But there is no reason not making games a little bit challenging.


    I am hoping to see some truely adaptive PvE scenarios where the difficulties/challenges are dynamically adjusted depends on the amount of players and compositions of players team. So the outcome of EVERY PvE scenario would be 50%/50%. (players win 50% of the time and computer win 50% of the time). Anyone know any PvE MMORPGs that have this win/loss raio???
    image     Well u must be in one hell of a guild if u clear all of Nax, AQ and dont find it a bit challanging since several of the top guild have been stuck on the 4horsemen for several months.What guild are u in btw? i understand that u must be in one since only a complete idiot would say that a game is to easy whitout having cleared it.
    I am talking about PvE scenarios in general, not a particular scenario.....


  • IcoGamesIcoGames Member Posts: 2,360

    PvE encounters are simply puzzles, and they'll remain so for the forseeable future.

    Ico
    Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.

  • zollenzollen Member Posts: 351
    Originally posted by IcoGames
    PvE encounters are simply puzzles, and they'll remain so for the forseeable future.
    risk-free, non-adaptive puzzles that can easily be solved as long as you know the "formula"....


  • IcoGamesIcoGames Member Posts: 2,360

    Originally posted by zollen
    risk-free, non-adaptive puzzles that can easily be solved as long as you know the "formula"....

    There isn't an AI on the market that can't be described with the above quote. We could argue the 'easily solved' part, but otherwise that's generally PvE for ya.

    If you're tired of solving puzzles, then I'd suggest playing more PvP. Although most players do adopt patterns, good PvP'ers are innovative and fun to compete against.

    Ico
    Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.

  • zollenzollen Member Posts: 351
    Originally posted by IcoGames
    Originally posted by zollen
    risk-free, non-adaptive puzzles that can easily be solved as long as you know the "formula"....

    There isn't an AI on the market that can't be described with the above quote. We could argue the 'easily solved' part, but otherwise that's generally PvE for ya.

    If you're tired of solving puzzles, then I'd suggest playing more PvP. Although most players do adopt patterns, good PvP'ers are innovative and fun to compete against.

    Is it possible that we are so used to the idea of PvE = no-risk, non-adaptive puzzles (aka grinding), we are unable to  accept anything new? I am fully aware that players are good at adapting pattern, this is why I am asking for a more advance adaptive PvE. Is it such a bad thing for players to have a tougher time locating patterns? Should PvE be the true counterpart of PvP?

     


  • Beta909Beta909 Member Posts: 30

    I really don't like advertising for other games.. but since you asked for it I will let you decide for yourself. Keep in mind this game gives out very little information. They arn't dead mind you, as if you e-mail anyone of the developers you get a responce back. Anyway the game is known as "Fallen Earth". Its a post-apoc world and they have some very unique ideas for PvE. One being 'Sound' thats right.. 'Sound' the enemy can hear you coming and its not just a 'hex based' hearing range it works off of a radius like actual sound. To learn a bit more check out the websites below.. however the offical site is extremely out of date.

    www.Fallenearth.com

    www.fallenearth.se (Fan forum)

    It may be what you are looking for in PvE.. it may not. You have to judge.

     

    - Jeerota

    _______________________________
    Current Game: None
    (Waiting on Fallen Earth)

    Games Tried:
    Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-NGE): 9/10
    Planetside: 7/10
    Horizons: 4/10
    Eve Online: 8/10
    Asherons call: 3/10

  • Unknown
    But some people love predictability and hate unpredictability.  Frankly many gamers do not want any challenge at all and love grinds no matter how much they may say otherwsie.
  • zollenzollen Member Posts: 351
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    But some people love predictability and hate unpredictability.  Frankly many gamers do not want any challenge at all and love grinds no matter how much they may say otherwsie.
    There may be some truths in your statement, but I also know many players quit WOW because of the massive grinding... anyway...


    I do believe behaviors are taught, many players are taught to like predictable gameplay because the PvE elements of all MMORPGs are more/less the same. There is no other truely ground-breaking alternative for players. Every MMORPGs use more/less the same PvE approach, does not mean there is no better PvE solution.


  • WendoXXXWendoXXX Member CommonPosts: 165






    Well u must be in one hell of a guild if u clear all of Nax, AQ and dont find it a bit challanging since several of the top guild have been stuck on the 4horsemen for several months.What guild are u in btw? i understand that u must be in one since only a complete idiot would say that a game is to easy whitout having cleared it.

    I am talking about PvE scenarios in general, not a particular scenario.....

     

    No really tell me what endgame guild you are in since u know that much about endgame. The server that guild is on also plz

    image
    Which FF Character Are You?

  • zollenzollen Member Posts: 351
    Originally posted by WendoXXX
    Well u must be in one hell of a guild if u clear all of Nax, AQ and dont find it a bit challanging since several of the top guild have been stuck on the 4horsemen for several months.What guild are u in btw? i understand that u must be in one since only a complete idiot would say that a game is to easy whitout having cleared it.

    I am talking about PvE scenarios in general, not a particular scenario.....

     

    No really tell me what endgame guild you are in since u know that much about endgame. The server that guild is on also plz

    I sense you are offensed by my statements. If you disagree with what I said, feel free to enlight us please?

    You knew I was talking about PvE in general, didn't you?

    May I suggest you reread your replies, does it sound rude to you?


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