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GU comic on SWG players, Are we to picky?
Tiller
Member LegendaryPosts: 11,488
*Disclaimer* bit of reading, continue at your own risk. 
http://www.gucomics.com/archives/view.php?cdate=20061020
http://www.guforums.com/showthread.php?t=9873#9873
This comic is a few weeks old but I just now found this and had to comment on it.
Why do people have such a hard time finding MMOs worth playing? Could it be due in part to the WoW phenomenon? I think it might. There are hardly any games worth playing out there because they are all play the same, like a bad copy of WoW. World of War Craft did it, it cant be copied, yet these big game studios do it, then say they arent copying WoW. Its no surprise to me that some of the independent titles out there who are not afraid to break the mold, like Ryzom are actually doing well.
The last few years the trend in most games has been the same, set path, quest, kill, loot, rinse and repeat. This is what devs think is fun because WoW does it successfully. They think maybe if they emulate it in their games they will have that success (or do better than without), but they are dead wrong.
These other games also make the grind more apparent. You cant copy a game and expect to have the same success when you do things like content half ass. We already have one WoW and we dont need 85 more that act like cheap knock offs. Give us something new, innovative and exciting. Break away from class based rule sets entirely for the heck of it. If we wanna play WoW well go hit subscribe on Blizzards billing site. Just because I play WoW It does not mean I want all my games to play the same. It kinda makes me wonder sometimes if these Devs, game review sites ect. actually play games in the same way we do. Sometimes it reminds me of an 80 year old corporate exec telling 18 year olds what the hip and cool new trends are and what he should wear. Please they have no clue. Trends die out, if you are completely uncreative or have a preference for a trend then its ok to recycle them with a little zest later on down the road, but much later.
As for character balance most games have it, but in almost every game out there its more obvious. In some games the only difference seems to be the skin, weapon and particle effects. That is taking the easy way out. Hell SWG made it stand out like 2 foot hernia after the NGE. There is a less transparent class balance in WoW and also in CoH, hence why these games do well you don't notice the balance as much. I much prefer skill based systems, but if I have to do class based then you better give me a lot of different ability options for my character, it makes me think I have control over my toon.
I see really no interdependencies between classes in most games since devs think people who play their games are anti social basement dwellers. Is there anything wrong with asking for help in a game? Did anyone ask that question? Yeah sometimes you see people make comments about how they dont think its fair to have to rely on other players to enjoy a game but for god sakes its an MMO-RPG. I thought the original premise of these games years ago was that you do things as a team to accomplish an objective. I mean come on, how many anti social mouth breathers play these games compared to people who are social and want to hang out with people? No way could there be more, yet devs believe otherwise.
That is one thing these devs forgot about when building their WoW clones, interdependencies. Remember the old pen and paper RPGs? How many people did you see solo those and think it was fun? I rest my case. Seems most MMORPG developers have run those players out of their games who wont conform to their crappy standards.
They tell us what we think is fun and we should respect them because they put years of work in to the game for us. Well I can tell you what your game is lacking, but will you listen? Nope. Here is what you hear you know nothing about developing MMOs and only want to be ub-ar Is this something they teach you in game design school? Dont ever listen to the players, they dont know what is best for a game and will surly ruin it I call this Freudian gaming theories. Out of the mind of a mad man yet these ideas are taken for more than what they should be.
Message to all MMORPG developers! Make your game how you want, its your game after all; just dont expect people to play it if you keep copying WoW in a bad way. Dont repeat the same garbage over and over till someone more creative than you thinks up something else. Stop reading over others shoulders. Break the mold now. You can call us ungrateful, evil whatever you want, but we have the right to have high expectations, after all we are paying you for the service.
-D
Comments
I for one think this community (MMORPG Players) is way too fast to criticize based on stated non-finished works, and I think that was what the comic was pointing out.
All of that said, you are spot on criticizing the industry for it's WoW-Clonery (new word...think Tom-Foolery).
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
no surprise to me that some of the independent titles out there who are
not afraid to break the mold, like Ryzom are actually doing well."
Except that Ryzom is NOT doing well... Its parent company (Nevrax) is on the verge of bankruptcy. Don't get me wrong, I love Ryzom... but all indications are that the really innovative stuff ends up being niche... and the watered-down mass-appeal games like WOW are the ones that (no surprise) succeed.
After all why do you think that so many stupid shows on TV like "America's Funniest Home Videos" tend to do well, while the really innovative and unusual stuff usually peters out and dies? You can't be strange, unusual, and different and appeal to the masses.
C
Didn't you know Helios teaches game design at the local college? He's SOE you know, he GOT to know game design!
someone should point out to the school, that Helios ran off 80%(?) of the players of a game he took over. Maybe they'll understand that they ain't got a Einstein to teach their young, but a Frankenstein.
Ok but how many clones of that show are out there? Lots. Do you like to watch the shows that have the exact same theme or do you prefer to watch the original where you know you cant go wrong? Do you think copies of American Idol do as well as the original? Every once in a while a new trend will start from someone breaks the mold. Without taking chances things become stale and people begin to complain. Time for change.
Interesting thing about the name Helios, it is associated with Apollo or Apollyon. Apollyon is also called "The Destroyer". He is also associated with numerous plagues visited upon mankind. I found that mythical fact intriguing and appropriate considering what has gone down with SWG.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Interesting thing about the name Helios, it is associated with Apollo or Apollyon. Apollyon is also called "The Destroyer". He is also associated with numerous plagues visited upon mankind. I found that mythical fact intriguing and appropriate considering what has gone down with SWG.
Start your area attack macros!
Here to exacting standards....
xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Most movies suck, most songs suck, most games suck, etc.
You can assume the usual 80/20 or 90/10 rule, but in whichever case, out of dozens of picks, you'll find 2 or 3 games that don't suck.
Of course, then you need to figure out if the games suit you.
Applying once again the 80/20,90/10 rule, that leaves us with a rather few games that will be good and will suit you. 1 in a 100 or so.
Needless to say, that many MMORPGs haven't been made yet.
But bottom line is, most MMORPGs are poor products. Sub-par graphics, uninteresting gameplay, bugs, issues, design and conceptual issues, etc. They say that that's OK since they are so much bigger than single player games. Well, it's not. Just because LOTR trilogy is 9-12 hours long, doesn't mean it was done poorly. And just because a cartoon is only 5 minutes long, it doesn't mean it has quality of biblical proprotions.
Bottomline is, MMORPGs *DO* suck. If it weren't for all that multi-player thing, they would have never existed (an oxymoron, but still), since non-multiplayer games of comparable quality need to meet much higher standards.
I think precu spoiled us for other MMOs. In the sandbox we had to rely on our imaginations and friendships for content over being pushed into a linear grind. Got the old creative juices flowing, which is way more satisfying in the long run.
If all you have before you is a grind to up your level your end content is max level
If your using your own creativity there should be no end of content
Picky? nah
Definately an interesting, objective view of things, but how about we cut this short before we go all emo on how much life itself sucks too.
I agree with an above poster's metaphor about America's Funniest Videos and American Idol being WoW-esque television shows and how all the spin-offs are horrible, even though the original is great (I myself ma not a huge fan of either of these shows, and I watch AI only to see the contestants like William Hung).
I can't resist the urge to mention Survivor and all the subsequent seasons and the whole reality show craze that has totally ruined television in general, and how WoW is changing MMOs for the worse and ruining the concept and production of future MMOs to come.
Je mettrai l'amour sur dos de moi.
Definately an interesting, objective view of things, but how about we cut this short before we go all emo on how much life itself sucks too.
Why is WoW succesful? It's a good game. MMO or not, it's a good game.
But it's also typed: fantasy - warcraft universe, leveling - diablo design. And of course flawless execution.
For those that enjoy those two things, that game is perfect.
The rest of traditional MMORPGs simply don't come close.
Look at Quake vs. Unreal. Both FPS, both same weapons, both same bots, combat, etc. How many other same styles FPS game were made in the past? I don't know, because I never heard of them. They weren't good enough. But believe me, clones of those get made and published weekly.
MMORPG in current form is an elephant, that few can tackle decently, and even less can do it right.
In the end, good games prevail, while poor games disapear into the night. But right now, the pickings are indeed slim. WoW, EvE, GW, Second Life would be my picks right now. Each represents its own genre. SL is perhaps a bit weird in that list, but SL is also the only true Virtual World game. Everything else on the market is either subpar or non-competitive.
There are of course good games (UO for example), but those aren't contenders.
Kai
WoW is just hard enough to make most people feel a sense of accomplishment, thus "beating" the game is some way is a rewarding experience. Most of us know any twit with half a brain could beat WoW, max level a toon and raid for life, but not everyone does.
SWG gave us sandbox instead of instanced, worlds in which we could do almost anything, even play a toon who never once engaged in combat. I'm not aware of another game so open-ended.
Are we too picky? Yes. We want or expect another game as visionary as SWG was. There are significant technical hurdles to a non-instanced world that led other game makers to opt for instancing in their games, etc., yet many of us do not understand why no one else will make another SWG-type game. Most game companies do not understand a game with a completely non-combat option of the type SWG offered. We want something most, perhaps even all, game development companies just cannot truly and fully comprehend and thus cannot deliver.
Another factor - WoW may be relatively easy, but they have around 7 million subscribers with that model. SWG never got more than around 300K. Which number would you shoot for? Anyone who says they'd be happy with 300K would never be a game company president/CEO. It's damned hard to argue with that kind of success.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
I stand corrected - let me rephrase - There are damn few president/CEOs who would be happy with 300K subs, and the Board of Directors (or similar agency) would also be pushing for the 7 million figure as well. DnL is a shining exception to the norm of corporate greed.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
I keep seeing people throw out these high numbers of WoW subscribers. Where are you all getting them from?
Almost every person I see post saying they played WoW has included a statement saying that they canceled due to various reasons (mostly because they "beat" the game). So I can only concluded that Blizzard has sold 7 million boxes, but probably has much fewer active subscribers. I would love to see who is coming up with these numbers and find out how he/she is coming up with the number.
As to the OP. Excellent post!
Last I heard on this was that they were still in court over it. If that's changed and they're in the black, great!
The fact that I have not heard or seen anything about this, should not be construed as me not liking the game.
And you still can't claim that Nevrax is making money hand over fist with Ryzom. It's a niche game. I love it, but I'm not going to pretend it has a million customers or something, just because I love it. A successful niche game may be what I like to play, but it's not what most companies want to develop. They want to develop a smash hit.
C
Customer base reaches new heights as Blizzard Entertainment®'s MMORPG continues its growth in North America, Europe, and Asia
IRVINE, California - December 19, 2005 - Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. today announced that
World of Warcraft®,
its massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG), has surpassed five million customers worldwide.
The subscription-based MMORPG launched approximately one year ago in North America, Australia, and New Zealand
and has since released in multiple countries throughout Europe and Asia. This latest milestone comes on the heels
of Blizzard Entertainment®'s recent announcement of a World of Warcraft expansion, World of Warcraft:
The Burning Crusade, which will push the boundaries of the game and offer even more content and features
for players.
"World of Warcraft's growth continues to exceed all our expectations," said Mike Morhaime, president and cofounder of
Blizzard Entertainment. "We want to reiterate our thanks to the millions of players worldwide and to all the retailers
who have enthusiastically supported the game over the past year. Our commitment to continue growing World of Warcraft
is stronger than ever, with development on future content patches and on our 2006 expansion, World of Warcraft: The
Burning Crusade, well underway. We look forward to offering even more content for current customers in the months
ahead and welcoming new players into the world this holiday season."
With a strong presence across Asia, Australia, Europe, and North America, World of Warcraft has quickly become the
world's most popular MMORPG. Most recently, the game was launched in the regions of Taiwan, Macau, and Hong Kong on
November 8, 2005.
As World of Warcraft's population grows, Blizzard continues to support the game with additional content through
regular patches and a planned expansion pack, set to release in 2006. World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade will
add new lands, quests, monsters, magic items, spells and abilities, two new player races, a new player profession,
10 new levels of power for players to achieve, and much more. Additional information on the expansion and the
game's regular content updates can be found at the official World of Warcraft website.
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play
World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet
Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above
definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and
expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
About Blizzard Entertainment, Inc.
Best known for blockbuster hits including World of Warcraft® and the Warcraft®,
StarCraft®, and Diablo® series,
Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. (www.blizzard.com), a division of Vivendi Games, is a premier
developer and publisher of entertainment
software renowned for creating many of the industry's most critically acclaimed games. Blizzard's track record includes
nine #1-selling games and multiple Game of the Year awards. The company's free Internet gaming service, Battle.net®,
reigns as the largest in the world, with millions of active users.
I loved the stop listening to the vocal minority line.
As for the rest of the points.
I really enjoyed star wars galaxies dispite having numerous complaints about gameplay and lack of content. I enjoyed Guild Wars because its group based pvp interaction is the best thing I have ever played online. I tried a few others including EvE. Eve was just not for me and everything else was sort of lame.
I dont care if you make a game similar to WoW. I would really like a game without trolls and orcs. I am dying for Star Trek online to come out. It holds alot of potential to be really enjoyable.
As for appealing to the masses. MMO's are not suppose to appeal to the masses. There is something wrong with your game if you are pulling the "masses" into the game. MMO's as business models where niche games meant to appeal to aging gamers looking for more adult orientated video games. Both in content and in cost MMO's where suppose to be the upper escalon of gaming. I have major issues with online games lately since they are absolutely geared towards the lowest common demonator player. If you have to appeal to the masses to be "successful" in a MMO you have already lost the core of the MMO gaming community. Once you have lost your core and you dont have a Warcraft name on the box how are you going to sell any monthly subscriptions?
Even titles with names like Matrix, Star Wars Galaxies and the potential DC, Marvel games are not going to meet much success if the model is to take a niche gaming evironment, mass market and make the game for the masses. Success in MMO's isn't suppose to be defined how it has been changed.
If game developer houses got back towards the core audience and markets for mmo's and stopped being influenced by twit ninny marketing asshats they could make adult games. Did Grand Theft Auto turn its Series less adult because the "masses" enjoyed it? So why are mmo's making the entire game mechanics appeal to crap kiddie console fps shooter gamers?
I never understood this entire shift. Give me original UO or Pre-CU swg any day over these console abortion games we have being pumped out.
You have just failed Business 101.
Would you like to play another game?
Well he's got a bit of a point. The MMORPG game type, which was based on the idea of a MUD, only scaled up and "visualized" (instead of text) was not, originally, conceived as a mass-market system. With both UO and EQ 1, there was a smallish but non-trivial market of people who both (a) liked computer or pen and paper RPGs and (b) had modems of some sort (though not many had high speed back then). Nobody in their right mind would've expected more than a few thousands of players when these games first opened, and they were not really designed, from the ground up, to appeal to that mass of players. And he's right that, to appeal to large masses, the games have had to be watered and dumbed way down.
As for failing business 101... it is not necessary to "appeal to the masses" in the broadest sense. All that is necessry is to make a solid profit. Imagine if you will the corner restaurant that has about 12 tables and the best Italian food in town. They are NOT appealing to the masses... they are appealing to a small local group of patrons (in their town or the next few towns over) who like high quality (and potentially expensive) authentic Italian cuisine.
Now, are you going to say that they failed business 101 because they don't make mass-market food like Burger King and serve it to a billion people a year? Sure, they have less money than "the King"... but as long as that restaurant serves enough people to pay its bills, pay its employees (and pay them well enough that they don't depart for greener pastures) and allow the owners to create a retirement nest-egg, it's succeeded.
You don't have to crack the million player mark to be successful... all you have to do is make a profit. The original MMORPG model was able to do that with a much smaller player base because it had a much lower overhead, for example. And he's right, that the model really was not designed for mass appeal, because it inherently only appeals to a certain TYPE of gamer, and it is not a common type.
What WOW and others today are doing is changing the MMORPG model, tweaking it to appeal to the masses, and to do that they have to remove the elements that were designed to appeal to that original core group that was being targetted -- the type of gamer who sat for hours playing Baldur's Gate or Ultima V. They've got a much larger subs base and make way more money than the old guard did, but that doesn't mean the quality is better... any more than BK's quality is better than that of a gourmet Italian restaurant with 12 tables and a master chef from Tuscany.
Now don't get me wrong... I am not trying to knock WOW or BK... Sometimes I am in the mood for a fast-food burger, and just have a "taste" for it. But I also know I'm not getting the quality at BK that I'd get in the Italian corner place.
C
Didn't you know Helios teaches game design at the local college? He's SOE you know, he GOT to know game design!
someone should point out to the school, that Helios ran off 80%(?) of the players of a game he took over. Maybe they'll understand that they ain't got a Einstein to teach their young, but a Frankenstein.
For the sake of clarity...Helios became a lead several months post-NGE, the lead guy who's brainchild became the NGE was Jeff Freeman, who we all know later left (or was fired) from SOE. Most likely it was because of this that Helios even became a lead dev...and before then from personal experience, Helios was a pretty good dev...as a lead dev? I don't know his impact from the coding/game perspective things are getting a tad better (would get a lot more if pre-CU ever came back), the only visible negative stuff that has gotten a lot of folks in fits is what Helios posts on the forums (which, if I remember right, have been a lot of conceptual...albeit ones that we don't like as far as wanting pre-CU goes).
Anyways, just know your facts before blasting off on someone for the NGE...ultimately its people like that Nancy Macintyre and other folks in charge of the project at LA and SOE. By even wanting to "dumb down the game" by making things loot, rinse, repeat and to cater to a younger demographic, that's not the developers speaking or even producers to a certain extent...its their management. And that's truly what has sucked since the dawn of the SWG mmo project. Those are the real folks who drove people off.
Didn't you know Helios teaches game design at the local college? He's SOE you know, he GOT to know game design!
someone should point out to the school, that Helios ran off 80%(?) of the players of a game he took over. Maybe they'll understand that they ain't got a Einstein to teach their young, but a Frankenstein.
For the sake of clarity...Helios became a lead several months post-NGE, the lead guy who's brainchild became the NGE was Jeff Freeman, who we all know later left (or was fired) from SOE. Most likely it was because of this that Helios even became a lead dev...and before then from personal experience, Helios was a pretty good dev...as a lead dev? I don't know his impact from the coding/game perspective things are getting a tad better (would get a lot more if pre-CU ever came back), the only visible negative stuff that has gotten a lot of folks in fits is what Helios posts on the forums (which, if I remember right, have been a lot of conceptual...albeit ones that we don't like as far as wanting pre-CU goes).
Anyways, just know your facts before blasting off on someone for the NGE...ultimately its people like that Nancy Macintyre and other folks in charge of the project at LA and SOE. By even wanting to "dumb down the game" by making things loot, rinse, repeat and to cater to a younger demographic, that's not the developers speaking or even producers to a certain extent...its their management. And that's truly what has sucked since the dawn of the SWG mmo project. Those are the real folks who drove people off.
Fired? I thought he still works for SOE. Look at his blog http://mythical.blogspot.com/ Must have been right after that day Brenlo posted about the NGE then because he was bloging about how it wasn't all his idea.
*edit Maybe he started this rumor about classic SWG
Didn't you know Helios teaches game design at the local college? He's SOE you know, he GOT to know game design!
someone should point out to the school, that Helios ran off 80%(?) of the players of a game he took over. Maybe they'll understand that they ain't got a Einstein to teach their young, but a Frankenstein.
For the sake of clarity...Helios became a lead several months post-NGE, the lead guy who's brainchild became the NGE was Jeff Freeman, who we all know later left (or was fired) from SOE. Most likely it was because of this that Helios even became a lead dev...and before then from personal experience, Helios was a pretty good dev...as a lead dev? I don't know his impact from the coding/game perspective things are getting a tad better (would get a lot more if pre-CU ever came back), the only visible negative stuff that has gotten a lot of folks in fits is what Helios posts on the forums (which, if I remember right, have been a lot of conceptual...albeit ones that we don't like as far as wanting pre-CU goes).
Anyways, just know your facts before blasting off on someone for the NGE...ultimately its people like that Nancy Macintyre and other folks in charge of the project at LA and SOE. By even wanting to "dumb down the game" by making things loot, rinse, repeat and to cater to a younger demographic, that's not the developers speaking or even producers to a certain extent...its their management. And that's truly what has sucked since the dawn of the SWG mmo project. Those are the real folks who drove people off.
Fired? I thought he still works for SOE. Look at his blog http://mythical.blogspot.com/ Must have been right after that day Brenlo posted about the NGE then because he was bloging about how it wasn't all his idea.
*edit Maybe he started this rumor about classic SWG
Interesting, the last time I looked at his blog he was unemployed and looking at other stuff to do. Now he's on a different project with SOE.
Yeah, he now says it wasn't all his idea...but there was a blog that he had to delete that caused a massive uproar about him getting the NGE approved (or something along those lines). If the NGE was a success I would bet he wouldn't be denying anything...
I was never a big fan of some of the lead devs over the years, I've found its usually the underlings that seem to be great people (ie like Addy and Hanse recently, or EJDev, or Swede) some may be leads for expansions or for certain game systems, but generally aren't always leads. Helios was one such dev too, but as I said...we only have what he has stirred up in the forums (primarily as far as crafters are concerned)...but we don't know how much of a positive or negative impact he has been on for the actual game. To be honest, during the corro era, we talked with the lead devs more often than my experience has been in the senate...since the NGE (for good or bad) they've normally bypassed the corro/senators and talked directly to the players. I guess sometimes its bad when ideas are just being thrown around, but its very good when you got folks like Hanse talking to the community about expertise systems as they're being developed, or Helios to the commando community for the Heavy Weapon System.