You have obvious never read anything about darkfall. Yeap, ganker choose normally players with a lesser skills than themself.
But it is impossible to know in darkfall which player has a lower skill.
There are no level in Darkfall, there are no Name Tags in Darkfall. And you do not know how good anyone is, you cant see it at the equipment. There are no low level locations, or newb locations.
They spawn in the capitol city or some cities around it, but all those cities are also well visited from all other players, because there they can trade, get stuff, and so on and so forth.
Next point, Darkfall has a alignmentsystem, if you gank players all day long, you will become evil, and you cant visit the capitol city or be even near of it without danger. Other players will kill you, Guards will attack you, the normal good player get + alignment for killing evil players, and with good alignment you get some extra quests and so on.
And again.. there are no levels, as it was said again and again.. 3-4 newbs can kill a veteran. Time is not as important, equipment is not game breakin, it depends just on your skill, like any fps game.
And if they bring a lot of gankers(evil players) near the capital city, i think you will see as fast as possible a lil war with a lot of good aligned players, which want to kill the evil guys.. and i also think such things can be really funny.
Sure every noob, and all other players will die a lot, no question.. it is a pvp game.
Well alot of this seems like pre-trammel UO. Your evil alignment thing wont prevent greifing. That seems to be a copy from UO, same thing they had basically. All people would do is have one red (evil) character and 1 blue (good character). The blue would buy all the stuff in town that the red needed. Therefore the red would never need to go to town.
3-4 newbs can kill a veteran? Ya what about when the veteran has all the advantages, like superior numbers, or coordinates the attack when the targets are engaged in battle with monsters... Believe me this wont stop griefing, been there done that.
You are right however I am not in beta for this game so I dont know every detail, what I do know however is that every game I have ever seen has ways to spots newbs pretty simple. Sure it might not show up for every idiot to see. But every ganker can tell, using things like, special areas where newbs congregate, weapon/armor graphics, general gameplay, various zones ..... All of these signals will tell the greifer the strength of the target.
In UO pre trammel (which sounds extremely similiar to this game) evil griefers could go forever without ever dieing. In fact they actually had penalties where they would lose 15% of thier skill, basically making them suck if they died, yet still all they did was grief so there was never any risk of dieing. Griefing was so bad under this system that PVP was almost non existent, mostly it was just griefing. On top of all that, people could macro off all thier evil faction, which sounds like the exact same thing they can do in this game.
Are all the zones where people can skill, gain items, craft .... are they guard zones? Otherwise I really dont see your point, how is this game going to prevent griefing on a massive scale.
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by ApraxisYou have obvious never read anything about darkfall. Yeap, ganker choose normally players with a lesser skills than themself.
But it is impossible to know in darkfall which player has a lower skill.
There are no level in Darkfall, there are no Name Tags in Darkfall. And you do not know how good anyone is, you cant see it at the equipment. There are no low level locations, or newb locations.
They spawn in the capitol city or some cities around it, but all those cities are also well visited from all other players, because there they can trade, get stuff, and so on and so forth.
Next point, Darkfall has a alignmentsystem, if you gank players all day long, you will become evil, and you cant visit the capitol city or be even near of it without danger. Other players will kill you, Guards will attack you, the normal good player get + alignment for killing evil players, and with good alignment you get some extra quests and so on.
And again.. there are no levels, as it was said again and again.. 3-4 newbs can kill a veteran. Time is not as important, equipment is not game breakin, it depends just on your skill, like any fps game.
And if they bring a lot of gankers(evil players) near the capital city, i think you will see as fast as possible a lil war with a lot of good aligned players, which want to kill the evil guys.. and i also think such things can be really funny.
Sure every noob, and all other players will die a lot, no question.. it is a pvp game.
Well alot of this seems like pre-trammel UO. Your evil alignment thing wont prevent greifing. That seems to be a copy from UO, same thing they had basically. All people would do is have one red (evil) character and 1 blue (good character). The blue would buy all the stuff in town that the red needed. Therefore the red would never need to go to town.
It looks like they will make it so that you can only have one character/server, of course ambitious griefer just goes and buys another account but at least it makes it more rare.
3-4 newbs can kill a veteran? Ya what about when the veteran has all the advantages, like superior numbers, or coordinates the attack when the targets are engaged in battle with monsters... Believe me this wont stop griefing, been there done that.
In what game have you 'been there, done that'? In what MMORPG can few noobies kill a vet? Not UO, thats for sure.
You are right however I am not in beta for this game so I dont know every detail, what I do know however is that every game I have ever seen has ways to spots newbs pretty simple. Sure it might not show up for every idiot to see. But every ganker can tell, using things like, special areas where newbs congregate, weapon/armor graphics, general gameplay, various zones ..... All of these signals will tell the greifer the strength of the target.
...but the griefer can never be 100% sure of the outcome, unlike in other mmorpgs. And thats the biggest anti-griefer factor, griefers dont want to lose.
In UO pre trammel (which sounds extremely similiar to this game) evil griefers could go forever without ever dieing. In fact they actually had penalties where they would lose 15% of thier skill, basically making them suck if they died, yet still all they did was grief so there was never any risk of dieing. Griefing was so bad under this system that PVP was almost non existent, mostly it was just griefing. On top of all that, people could macro off all thier evil faction, which sounds like the exact same thing they can do in this game.
What little ive played UO, there is no way in hell that few noobies could ever kill 7xGM, hence no fear of dieing. Good luck trying the same in DF.
But that last comment you made is actually a pretty good question, can we macro our aligment (effectively)?
Are all the zones where people can skill, gain items, craft .... are they guard zones? Otherwise I really dont see your point, how is this game going to prevent griefing on a massive scale.
There are no zones, only safety you ever find in DF is your friends and clanmates, outside of cities guarded by friendly mobs that is.
It is you who has to mould the gameworld around you to find anykind of safety, its actually pretty easy by uniting with other people. Once youre surrounded by 200 clanmates (even if every one of them is a total noobie), a solo griefer will have to move to another area in order to continue his chosen profession.
But im not in beta either and who knows, maybe the game will suck in every possible way. But until beta, there is only a list of promises and use of logic to argue how everything will go smooth. So far, i honestly cant find any serious flaws in their design. And that is pretty damn rare.
Originally posted by paade 3-4 newbs can kill a veteran? Ya what about when the veteran has all the advantages, like superior numbers, or coordinates the attack when the targets are engaged in battle with monsters... Believe me this wont stop griefing, been there done that.
In what game have you 'been there, done that'? In what MMORPG can few noobies kill a vet? Not UO, thats for sure.
I was being sarcastic with that comment. My point is I have heard claims in many games that 3-4 newbs can kill a verteran. UO this is certainly possible, however it is sooo rare that it just doesnt exist. Sure "technically" 3-4 newbs with say 80 magery and maybe 70 EI (or whatever the acronym that enhances magery damage, its been awhile for me). The 3 - 4 people all casting Exposion/Corp Por around the same time, with a well timed paralyze, could kill a 7x GM.
However is that ever going to happen? NO
The main reasons are, the Veteran knows the game mechanics, knows the terrain, has magic resistance, potions, awesome weapons, armor, all sorts of other stuff. Most importantly they time thier attacks at very opportune times, like attacking when the 3-4 people are engaged in a tuff battle with a few mobs, usually the griefer trains a few mobs to the group to confuse things even more. Also surprise is a huge factor and most griefers travel in packs, any decent griefer can have 3-4 people dead before they even know whats going on.
Then the griefer /spits on the corpses and laughs at the newbs at how bad they suck, loots the bodies .... Then another high level player who sees the evil player shows up, and off to the races the evil person runs, loot in hand right into thier safe house.
This isnt pvp, there is no combat, or risk, you might as well just give the griefer a NUKE button that automatically kills whoever they want, from the safty of thier house.
I am certainly not advocating the game allowing newbs to kill vets, that would take away skill. I am saying why put newbs in a situation where they can be killed while skilling up. Should be if you want to pvp then you pvp, if u want to pve you should be safe. Would eliminate griefing and force pvp. But I suppose the griefers dont like that idea, but then they would actually have to fight equally skilled players, and cant pretend to be godly.
3-4 newbs can kill a veteran? Ya what about when the veteran has all the advantages, like superior numbers, or coordinates the attack when the targets are engaged in battle with monsters... Believe me this wont stop griefing, been there done that.
In what game have you 'been there, done that'? In what MMORPG can few noobies kill a vet? Not UO, thats for sure.
The main reasons are, the Veteran knows the game mechanics, knows the terrain, has magic resistance, potions, awesome weapons, armor, all sorts of other stuff. Most importantly they time thier attacks at very opportune times, like attacking when the 3-4 people are engaged in a tuff battle with a few mobs, usually the griefer trains a few mobs to the group to confuse things even more. Also surprise is a huge factor and most griefers travel in packs, any decent griefer can have 3-4 people dead before they even know whats going on.
Then the griefer /spits on the corpses and laughs at the newbs at how bad they suck, loots the bodies .... Then another high level player who sees the evil player shows up, and off to the races the evil person runs, loot in hand right into thier safe house.
well, i dont consider that griefing. Griefing would be IMO if that same vet could somehow kill those noobs repeatedly when they respawn or corpse camping. If people cant handle getting killed once in a while, then they really shouldnt play a pvp game or in pvp server. Having safezones only prevents onekind of griefing, but i can come up with a lot of other ways to grief, kill stealing, ninja'ing, blocking a passage, aggroing mobs (train), healing/buffing mobs (if such a thing is possible), killing NPC vendors/quest givers or just insulting everyone around you. FFA pvp negates many things from that list. Someone pissing at you? Cut him in half.
This isnt pvp, there is no combat, or risk, you might as well just give the griefer a NUKE button that automatically kills whoever they want, from the safty of thier house.
It is pvp. That vet might succeed in that once or twice, but unless those noobs are complete idiots, next time around they will be more prepared. Many other games it doesnt matter how well noobs prepare themselves when someone twice their lvl steamrolls them without taking a scratch.
I am certainly not advocating the game allowing newbs to kill vets, that would take away skill. I am saying why put newbs in a situation where they can be killed while skilling up. Should be if you want to pvp then you pvp, if u want to pve you should be safe. Would eliminate griefing and force pvp. But I suppose the griefers dont like that idea, but then they would actually have to fight equally skilled players, and cant pretend to be godly.
That is the beauty of FFA pvp, it is YOU who have to create 'a safezone' around you, rather than game mechanics doing it for you. There is a sort of learning curve, you will be killed few times before you learn how to do it. As long as new players learn to group up or join a clan, griefers will have a HARD time finding people to grief. Creating artificial safezones might prevent noobkilling but at the same time it would create other ways to grief (read above). As long as game mechanics are well designed FFA pvp actually PREVENTS griefing IMO.
You know Brainy, it seems that you're only trying more and more to make excused on why a full pvp game will fail (in it's endeavors to protect newbs, in this case). Perhaps you had a few bad experiences on another one or something, but your arguments thus far only show that you're not as educated in the development process and design plans for Darkfall as some are. For example:
First, you noted that griefers could simply make a second character (have one red, one not), and have the good character buy items in towns. Well, paade was close, but wasn't on the money with his reply: In Darkfall, the current plans allow you to have multiple characters to one account. However, all characters are linked to one another. Meaning: they all must be of the same alliance race (Human/Mirdain/Dwarf, Ork/Mahirim, Alfar), will all share the same surname, and will all share the same alignment. In other words... If you grief on one character and he takes an alignment hit of evil, all of your other characters on that account will become evil too. Now, of course (as paade mentioned), you can open a second account. But the devs have mentioned that they don't condone such type of gaming, and any duplicate accounts found from the players will have both accounts banned. So, in a sense, it'll take the most hardcore griefers to try running dual accounts for this reason...
Secondly, you keep commenting on how 3-4 newbs really can't take down an experienced player... Well, in some arguments, you're right - they're equipment will be better (though not enough to change the tide of battle), they'll have reistances (again, full immunities and huge resistances won't be supported in DF), they'll know the game mechanics better (this is the only thing that matters - player skill), and they'll use the surrounding area to their advantage (again - player skill). Player skill is all that matters - can you outsmart your opponent, simply put. And the devs have said time and time again that sometimes that won't even matter; if you have multiple people bashing you with their newb weapons and spells, you're going to eventually die. This is a different system than the UO one you were talking about - it's not about some far fetched extreme possibility where some newbs MIGHT get lucky and kill a more experienced player... They're making it so that this is actually quite a common event. And when it comes down to griefers travelling in numbers, then you're no longer talking about a few newbs killing a veteren - you're talking about several veterens killing a few newbs. Big challenge there, and oh - look at that... You just looted starter equipment that sells for 0 gold!? Nice alignment hit for no real reward, eh?
In many ways, Darkfall is changing a lot of features that have been attempted, and failed in previous MMO's. Perhaps it's based on your experiences with such failed features that causes you to think inside the box on these matters, rather than seeing the potential of a game that the developers are actually building for their players - casual and hardcore alike. These devs are just regular MMO gamers from old school games, attempting to make a game that gives all of their players what they want. If you have any other questions regarding the mechanics (as understood and explained to us up to this point), please feel free to ask... But to sit here and judge the potential of their system based off the failures of another game's is simply ignorant; and I'll happily let you know where your hypothetical situations fail in the world of Agon.
Originally posted by SaintedOne You know Brainy, it seems that you're only trying more and more to make excused on why a full pvp game will fail (in it's endeavors to protect newbs, in this case). Perhaps you had a few bad experiences on another one or something, but your arguments thus far only show that you're not as educated in the development process and design plans for Darkfall as some are. For example:
First, you noted that griefers could simply make a second character (have one red, one not), and have the good character buy items in towns. Well, paade was close, but wasn't on the money with his reply: In Darkfall, the current plans allow you to have multiple characters to one account. However, all characters are linked to one another. Meaning: they all must be of the same alliance race (Human/Mirdain/Dwarf, Ork/Mahirim, Alfar), will all share the same surname, and will all share the same alignment. In other words... If you grief on one character and he takes an alignment hit of evil, all of your other characters on that account will become evil too. Now, of course (as paade mentioned), you can open a second account. But the devs have mentioned that they don't condone such type of gaming, and any duplicate accounts found from the players will have both accounts banned. So, in a sense, it'll take the most hardcore griefers to try running dual accounts for this reason...
Well this may be the case but you are really spitting technical hairs. The main point was that people dont need to go to town. So pure evil characters can get the equipment and items they need from a 2nd source. That source can be other ways like friends? And any number of countless ways, in other games I have seen things like player vendors, player cities, player housing...
Secondly, you keep commenting on how 3-4 newbs really can't take down an experienced player... Well, in some arguments, you're right - they're equipment will be better (though not enough to change the tide of battle), they'll have reistances (again, full immunities and huge resistances won't be supported in DF), they'll know the game mechanics better (this is the only thing that matters - player skill), and they'll use the surrounding area to their advantage (again - player skill). Player skill is all that matters - can you outsmart your opponent, simply put. And the devs have said time and time again that sometimes that won't even matter; if you have multiple people bashing you with their newb weapons and spells, you're going to eventually die.
LOL eventually die, whats that mean you are disconnected so 10 minutes later a few newbs finally kill you? Give me a break, you are way off here, honestly you are talking out both sides of your mouth. First you say skill it the predominant feature in this game, then you say, unlike other games, people without any skill at all can kill veterans. That doesnt even make sense.
Honestly I think skill should be the predominant feature, a game where skill isnt the most important feature doesnt have a challenging PVP environment. I dont think complete newbs should be able to kill a Vet. I think you are uninformed on the abilities of newbs in this game and dont understand how important skill is. Skill is a good thing and the game shouldnt be dumbed down for newbs.
On the otherhand, this game shouldnt allow nonstop griefing of newbs either, which is what looks to me is going to happen.
Cant you just have a challenging pvp environment where skill is the most important factor, yet have it where newbs are not griefed all day long? Seems simple enough to me.
This is a different system than the UO one you were talking about - it's not about some far fetched extreme possibility where some newbs MIGHT get lucky and kill a more experienced player... They're making it so that this is actually quite a common event. And when it comes down to griefers travelling in numbers, then you're no longer talking about a few newbs killing a veteren - you're talking about several veterens killing a few newbs. Big challenge there, and oh - look at that... You just looted starter equipment that sells for 0 gold!? Nice alignment hit for no real reward, eh?
Well you obviously never played or read about pretrammel UO even though the boards on this site discuss it nonstop. Griefers dont need rewards to kill newbs, thier reward is making others miserable any way possible. They dont represent alot of players, however just 2% of the population can ruin a game for the majority of players, ive seen that happen in many MMO's.
In regards to alignment, ive seen people with the worst possible alignment in UO with a similiar system, and the consequences in that game for having bad alignment was way worse then this system is going to be. So I dont really see your point about alignment stopping griefers.
Well this may be the case but you are really spitting technical hairs. The main point was that people dont need to go to town. So pure evil characters can get the equipment and items they need from a 2nd source. That source can be other ways like friends? And any number of countless ways, in other games I have seen things like player vendors, player cities, player housing...
Your point was that people didn't need to go to town? Of course they don't - players create their own towns in this game! That should have been obvious from the beginning. Therefore, of course they don't need to worry about guards from NPC towns; so long as they stay away from the ones with alignments opposite of theirs (which will easily be done by going to player towns), then they won't have any problem doing their shopping. So, I'm not quite sure where the miscommunication was, but I'm not arguing with you there.
LOL eventually die, whats that mean you are disconnected so 10 minutes later a few newbs finally kill you? Give me a break, you are way off here, honestly you are talking out both sides of your mouth. First you say skill it the predominant feature in this game, then you say, unlike other games, people without any skill at all can kill veterans. That doesnt even make sense.
Honestly I think skill should be the predominant feature, a game where skill isnt the most important feature doesnt have a challenging PVP environment. I dont think complete newbs should be able to kill a Vet. I think you are uninformed on the abilities of newbs in this game and dont understand how important skill is. Skill is a good thing and the game shouldnt be dumbed down for newbs.
You're taking this way out of context. I don't mean 'eventually' as in, 20 minutes later due to some bs network crash or whatever. I mean, 'eventually' as in after they manage to kill two or so of the newbs, the others are going to finish him off. While this [i]is[/i] a game of skill, let me see you throw one vetern FPS gamer point blank into an area with four newbie FPS gamers and have that one kill them [b]every time[/b]. While this is a game of skill, it's also simple mechanics. They're designing it specifically not to be a Lineage 2 repeat, or a Shadowbane repeat where 70+ assholes camp the newbie areas and grief the hell out of every one. The dev's have said themselves, on multiple occasions: if this happens, the newbies can form a small party in town, head out to where that high level player is, and extract their revenge. This arguement is really pointless though... Until the game launches, or even hits beta, it's pure speculation on both our parts about whether or not the devs can actually prevent griefing as well as they claim they can...
On the otherhand, this game shouldnt allow nonstop griefing of newbs either, which is what looks to me is going to happen.
Cant you just have a challenging pvp environment where skill is the most important factor, yet have it where newbs are not griefed all day long? Seems simple enough to me.
It only looks like that's what is going to happen because you can only look at it from experiences you've had in the past with other games; until we experience the system that the devs develop for Darkfall, it's really impossible to say what's going to happen. If everything goes as they say it will, this [i]will[/i] be a system where newbs are not griefed all day long.
Well you obviously never played or read about pretrammel UO even though the boards on this site discuss it nonstop. Griefers dont need rewards to kill newbs, thier reward is making others miserable any way possible. They dont represent alot of players, however just 2% of the population can ruin a game for the majority of players, ive seen that happen in many MMO's.
You're actually right here - I haven't played pretrammel UO. In fact, I never played UO at all; it's one of the few MMORPGs that I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing (while I've been playing MMO's for the last seven years, and do have over 20 titles that I've played). I do understand what a griefer is, and their reasons for doing it; I was merely pointing out that, if the system is designed as the devs claim it is, then they're really causing little grief to the newbies. They simply run back to town, re-equip themselves for free (or cheap), gather a bunch of other nebws, and go back to kill the griefer (then reclaim their equipment).
In regards to alignment, ive seen people with the worst possible alignment in UO with a similiar system, and the consequences in that game for having bad alignment was way worse then this system is going to be. So I dont really see your point about alignment stopping griefers
Once more... Until we see how badly the alignments actually affect a player's experience, it's hard to argue this one. All we know at this stage is that if a player has an evil alliance, they become KOS for all NPC guards, and some player-town guards who are directed to kill evil players.
A lot of arguements for both sides, and some goods on both, too.
Sure, griefing will be possible, in any game, but nevertheless it is in Darkfall not really easy, and the lowlvl(better lowskill) player will have options to avoid to be griefed. But it is possible, as in any other game pve incl., too.
The darkfall concept is really well rounded, and the best openpvp concept i have ever seen, with almost unlimited options and freedom.
You will always take some risk, you will always die, sometimes, but you can do something, you can try to avoid it, you can prepare yourself. And you can do in this onlineworld of darkfall much much more things than in every other game, which exist or is in development at the moment.
It is a pvp game, but it can also be fun for crafter, roleplayer, trader and a lot of other playing styles. And you need as much freedom as possible for some playstyles to be really funny. If you are a roleplayer you need freedom and a dynamic world to have real roleplaying experience and to shape the world. If you are a crafter/trader you need freedom and a dynamic world to build up a trading empire, become rich, and have real influence with this money to shape the world. If you are a pvp player(or maybe better said a warfare player) you need as much freedom and a dynamic world as possible, to build up cities, conquer empires, become a leader of a mighty empire, lead a army in a meaningful war(or be just one warrior in this army) and shape the world.
All this are all extremely thrilling and satisfactory experiences, which are worth the little risk. Darkfall offers this experiences and also offers options to avoid to be griefed. If you could name just one game(existed or in development), which offers similar things and is better concept wise, well... then just cry it out, and i will test it. (EvE Online is maybe the only one, which come at least really near to this) But until then darkfall is the most anticipated mmorpg for me and a lot of other peoples.
But however, if you are the pvp player, which want just the fight, and nothing else, well then there are some other games, which may be better.. but darkfall is more than just simple pvp. And that is the point.
Well my point is that all of this has already been done before in UO PRE Trammel. I really have heard nothing yet that is any different then UO actually that will stop griefing from being central to this game. Its unfortunate really, because UO was a good game but because griefing was such a problem they overnerfed thier entire PVP system just to save the game. What really should have happened was putting into place some minor fixes to make griefers either leave the game because they had no targets, or PVP with the real pvpers.
I notice you keep saying wait and see. But I really dont need to wait until a bus runs over me to know if it will hurt. So far the systems in place are almost identical to another game, (sounds almost exactly like UO) This game had a huge problem with griefing.
I really dont see why you all want griefing at all actually. Is it because you think its an unsolvable problem? Or is it just that you are part of the 2% that thinks its worth making life misable for the other 98% is worth it? I am not sure why you think there has to be some choice of tons of griefing or no pvp at all? Its not that difficult to put in place serious consequences to griefers at the same time keeping a solid pvp environment.
This game really has potential in the PVP system if they can just eliminate the griefing problem that WILL happen if no other rules are implemented.
Open PvP will bring freedom back to the MMO. We have been longing for this freedom for so long and there are so many big titles who neglected this very important aspect of MMO´s.
So give it up, Open PvP is upon us in Darkfall. If you cannot deal with dying or loosing your items you need more time in the other mmo´s before you understand why we need this.
Someone being rude to you ?
You can throw that fat axe in his face
Someone stealing your loot ?
You can throw that fat axe in his face
Someone being kind to you ?
You can throw that fat axe in his face
Its all about YOU CAN
and not about YOU CANT
When you ready to risk something in order to gain something you will be old enough for darkfall. But demanding safety in a game is a contradiction of what you are in the game. Be a hero and face evil stop crying about gankers and start your crusade in game to get rid of em.
Originally posted by Brainy Well my point is that all of this has already been done before in UO PRE Trammel. I really have heard nothing yet that is any different then UO actually that will stop griefing from being central to this game. Its unfortunate really, because UO was a good game but because griefing was such a problem they overnerfed thier entire PVP system just to save the game. What really should have happened was putting into place some minor fixes to make griefers either leave the game because they had no targets, or PVP with the real pvpers. I notice you keep saying wait and see. But I really dont need to wait until a bus runs over me to know if it will hurt. So far the systems in place are almost identical to another game, (sounds almost exactly like UO) This game had a huge problem with griefing. I really dont see why you all want griefing at all actually. Is it because you think its an unsolvable problem? Or is it just that you are part of the 2% that thinks its worth making life misable for the other 98% is worth it? I am not sure why you think there has to be some choice of tons of griefing or no pvp at all? Its not that difficult to put in place serious consequences to griefers at the same time keeping a solid pvp environment. This game really has potential in the PVP system if they can just eliminate the griefing problem that WILL happen if no other rules are implemented.
Ok, Darkfall is a lil bit more than UO, it offers a lot more features. But yes, UO pre Trammel is at least as near as possible to Darkfall. Darkfall is maybe the evolution of UO, with the step between called EVE.
You should read more about the alignment system, it is not the same as in UO, it is a little bit different. But nevertheless, it will not stop, that any other guy can kill you, and will do it. It will prevent griefers to some extent, but it will not stop it completely and it is unpossible, too.
Ok, just look at another pvp game.. hmm about what pvp game you want talk? WoW? DAoC? Ok, lets talk about DAoC.
In DAoC you have some safezones, within you can not be attacked. In the PvP zones you can just be attacked from the opposite side, but nevertheless if you enter the pvp zone you can be griefed like in any other game.. you do not lose your loot, but your time.
But now talk about the safezones.. you can not be griefed in it? Not really true. You can be scamed, ninja looting is always possible, to draw dangerous mobs is possible, spot stealing is possible and so on and so forth. Griefing is a factor even in the safezones of DAoC, and you can do nothing against it.. just call a GM, but we all know not a lot will happen.
In Darkfall those forms of griefing are also possible, but you can at least kill them, but you can also be killed.
So where is the difference?
In DAoC the griefer can do it as long as he want.. nothing will change, the only thing, which will stop him is, that it may be boring after some time.
In Darkfall the griefer will be evil after some time, what will change with it?
He can not enter the capitol town, he can not enter the most player towns, he can not trade with the most npcs, he will be kos for the most players.
You have to know, that you can only increase your alignment, if you kill other evil players. This mean, that a lot of player which become evil and do not want it anymore will hunt the other evil guys. It is not like in UO, where you need just some time or some money.. you must hunt griefers(or evil players) to get good again. And it is like a point system.. let say from -100 to +100.. and let asume 1 point per kill. So if you are the evil griefer bastard with -100 you must hunt down at least 100 evil guys to be just neutral, and even more to be good again. It will demand some time... and you have to do a good job for the community.. hunting down the griefer and take away their stuff. This will hurt.
And what effect will it have?
Some things
- you will be able to consider griefers - griefers will be hunted
And this two simple points lead to the situation, that it will be quit hard for griefers.
But some other points which make it also easier for the "normal" player.
- If you die it is not neccassary to go back to your corpse. Which will avoid corpse camping. You will wake up on your bind point.. normally your clan city or the capital city for noob players.. almost safe areas. - no low level only zones.. no dedicated zones for griefers to hunt their pray - no possible clue to detect which player is a veteran or a noob. No name tag, no level above the head, no armor which say you are a high or a low level - they think about a single character server, or that all characters share the same alignment.. it is not decided until now.. so it will be not as easy to get money for your griefer, or play both a griefer and the good guy. - they have the evil town.. a place where the evil play can bind and buy stuff.. the stuff will somewhat more expensive.. but this have also a counter part.. it seperate the evil players from the good ones. They must at first travel to the area where the easy pray could be.. and it may be a hard travel, a lot of other evil guys, which may kill you, you the griefer and take your stuff.. of course - some quests will be alignment based, you will not be able to get some quests as a evil player, you will not be able to get some prestige classes.. but nevertheless maybe some special quests for the evil guys, too.. the same with the prestige classes. Another seperation.
I think this are more than enough points to limit griefing without killing the open world and the open pvp.
Originally posted by Brainy Well my point is that all of this has already been done before in UO PRE Trammel. I really have heard nothing yet that is any different then UO actually that will stop griefing from being central to this game. Its unfortunate really, because UO was a good game but because griefing was such a problem they overnerfed thier entire PVP system just to save the game. What really should have happened was putting into place some minor fixes to make griefers either leave the game because they had no targets, or PVP with the real pvpers. I notice you keep saying wait and see. But I really dont need to wait until a bus runs over me to know if it will hurt. So far the systems in place are almost identical to another game, (sounds almost exactly like UO) This game had a huge problem with griefing. I really dont see why you all want griefing at all actually. Is it because you think its an unsolvable problem? Or is it just that you are part of the 2% that thinks its worth making life misable for the other 98% is worth it? I am not sure why you think there has to be some choice of tons of griefing or no pvp at all? Its not that difficult to put in place serious consequences to griefers at the same time keeping a solid pvp environment. This game really has potential in the PVP system if they can just eliminate the griefing problem that WILL happen if no other rules are implemented.
You keep repeating that like a broken record while it should be clear by now that DF is different from UO in that there are no demi-gods in this game, no vets that can kill 20 or so noobs without taking a scratch. If that doesnt make life hard to griefers then i dont know what does. In UO you were able to grief because there was/is almost no chance of you getting killed, DF will not be like that. You can doubt that all you like but in the end you really have no point since you (or I) never played the game. We just have to see if they deliver as promised, dont start whining for changes before you actually see it.
Apraxis - Making a DAOC comparison to griefing doesnt even make sense unless you are talking about Mordred server (which is a grief fest server) exact reason only a couple people actually play on that server.
So assuming you are talking about the 99% of other players playing on some other type of server in DAOC, I dont even see how you can be griefed. Maybe ganked, 2v1 4v1 100v1 but surely not griefed. You wouldnt even be in the zone if it wasnt for the fact you were ready to pvp. In addition there are no level 1 newbs going to level 50 pvp zones. In fact there are pvp zones for all levels of players all the way up until level 49, then there is a level 50 zone. In addition players are safe from griefing because pvp is not allowed in pve zones. Even if you were griefed you wouldnt lose anything, so the rare example you might give still is not the same. Your comparison to DAOC is way off.
paade - who cares if a vet can kill 20 newbs or not, that has nothing to do with griefing. Griefing can be just 1v1 where the high level kills a low level while they are PVE and at 1% life. So whether 20 newbs can kill a vet makes no difference. Unless you are suggesting they are putting in a feature where you can gate in 20 people right on top of the spot where the person who last killed you is currently standing. Maybe then it would make a difference. But I havent heard that feature yet.
I still havent heard a decent reason on why griefing is needed in any game. And why griefing shouldnt be completely eliminated.
Brainy you are simply not fit to play games with risks involved. You dont get why it is so important to have freedom even if the outcome in some situations are negative in your view.
Freedom is being able to steal what is not yours but moral is what is staying your hand. You sir need to seperate these two.
Removing the freedom = removing the dynamics of player interaction, making the world static and uninteresting.
You have to accept the fact that players are indeed what drives a mmo , the framework should only provide tools for the players not strict rules that limits their freedom because of ethics outside the game.
Play the game in its context instead and be a true champion of virtue. That will win you more respect in the game than you do outside the game on these boards right now.
Stop the whining and accept freedom has its good and bad sides. And what you want is to remove that freedom in order for you to feel safe.. ( in a game ) wake up.
Makeme - Freedom defined by you to be what exactly? Even in America there are laws and rules to govern freedom. You cant just do whatever you want when you want to. In fact the ruleset you are proposing is pure chaos and does not exist in any civilization.
I would also point out, that when you suggest Freedom to grief, that can easily be freedom to hack? Freedom to dupe? Freedom to exploit? Why is there some distinction? I am sure there is a small group of players (probably the same exact 2% that grief) that love to hack, dupe, use 3rd party exploits, and a list of other destructive things that ruin the gameplay for the majority. Just because a few people want to do whatever they please doesnt mean that games have to make games that appeal to them. What makes it almost hypocritical about that, is that greifers/hackers/dupers/exploiters dont even like playing games with similiar players. Therefore the only way they can have fun is to ruin the experience of players that dont do those things. That means that you just cant make a game for that 2% and let them be happy. You have to make a game that draws in the other groups, so that this small minority can ruin the game for 98% of the population just so that they can have a little fun.
Almost makes me think similiar to child molesters and rapist, you cant just stick them all on and island and say live free and happy. The only way they are happy is to have victims, so getting them all together in one group would actually make them want to leave their utopia island of freedom, unless you import fresh victims for them. So victims can live free and happy without predators, but predators cant live hapy without victims. How ironic.
Have you ever thought that maybe these game manufactures want to make money? They dont want to be like SB and see thier entire playerbase dissapear.
Originally posted by Brainy Makeme - Freedom defined by you to be what exactly? Even in America there are laws and rules to govern freedom. You cant just do whatever you want when you want to. In fact the ruleset you are proposing is pure chaos and does not exist in any civilization. I would also point out, that when you suggest Freedom to grief, that can easily be freedom to hack? Freedom to dupe? Freedom to exploit? Why is there some distinction? I am sure there is a small group of players (probably the same exact 2% that grief) that love to hack, dupe, use 3rd party exploits, and a list of other destructive things that ruin the gameplay for the majority. Just because a few people want to do whatever they please doesnt mean that games have to make games that appeal to them. What makes it almost hypocritical about that, is that greifers/hackers/dupers/exploiters dont even like playing games with similiar players. Therefore the only way they can have fun is to ruin the experience of players that dont do those things. That means that you just cant make a game for that 2% and let them be happy. You have to make a game that draws in the other groups, so that this small minority can ruin the game for 98% of the population just so that they can have a little fun. Almost makes me think similiar to child molesters and rapist, you cant just stick them all on and island and say live free and happy. The only way they are happy is to have victims, so getting them all together in one group would actually make them want to leave their utopia island of freedom, unless you import fresh victims for them. So victims can live free and happy without predators, but predators cant live hapy without victims. How ironic. Have you ever thought that maybe these game manufactures want to make money? They dont want to be like SB and see thier entire playerbase dissapear.
Freedom is what i wrote before. Its being able to do everything regardless of ethics. And yes like America there are rules in darkfall.
I did not suggest any ruleset i stated that mmo´s need total freedom regardless of real life ethics. The consequence for those actions however are a whole new discussion. And if you read up on the answers you got from others users you would see that the consequences are indeed a lot tougher than previously seen.
Freedom to grief yes ( grief is a very weird and broad term imo but im guessing you mean being killed unfairly ) , freedom to hack no as that is messing with that framework and that has nothing to do with playing thats just sabotage and cheating. So yes there is a BIG distinction you however fail to see it.
Killing you in game is no violation of the agreement, hacking, duping, exploit is. Can you see it now ?
Killing you in real life is a breach of real life ethics and that is a no go and my morals and society laws would bring consequences if i were to pursue that. But i could if my motivation where that twisted. ( i want those possibilities in the games AND the consequences should be there too absolutely )
The reason i want that freedom is not because i want to rape newbies over n over ( i would rather rape those who want to rape those newbies ) , simply because there is a much bigger challenge in playing a good guy that actually stays a good guy. Say for instance that someone doing something evil but its not shown in alignment, then i can trash my own alignment in order to punish the real evil ( the guy that hides behind the framework )
And i have fun with everyone even when 20 red pkers come rolling me over, i unlike you adapt to the situation where you rather wanna complain that someone is organized in an evil way.
Now you dont like it that the game can be unfair. Well i do it brings a hell of a lot more excitement.
I think Darkfall producers are very aware of the making money part, this is exactly why they are making a mmorg that is not in the same catagory as EQ2 and WOW this game is focused on player interaction and conflict.
Originally posted by Brainy paade - who cares if a vet can kill 20 newbs or not, that has nothing to do with griefing. Griefing can be just 1v1 where the high level kills a low level while they are PVE and at 1% life. So whether 20 newbs can kill a vet makes no difference. Unless you are suggesting they are putting in a feature where you can gate in 20 people right on top of the spot where the person who last killed you is currently standing. Maybe then it would make a difference. But I havent heard that feature yet. I still havent heard a decent reason on why griefing is needed in any game. And why griefing shouldnt be completely eliminated.
omg, dont be so thickheaded, you know perfectly well what i meant. In UO one or two 7xGM can sweep whole areas of noobs without much fear of losing, in DF thats not possible. If youre killing mobs alone and someone kills you, thats not griefing. Thats just something you either have to get used to, or become smarter and avoid such situations and next time bring friends.
If you still dont get this, then i guess DF is not for you.
Originally posted by Brainy Apraxis - Making a DAOC comparison to griefing doesnt even make sense unless you are talking about Mordred server (which is a grief fest server) exact reason only a couple people actually play on that server. So assuming you are talking about the 99% of other players playing on some other type of server in DAOC, I dont even see how you can be griefed. Maybe ganked, 2v1 4v1 100v1 but surely not griefed. You wouldnt even be in the zone if it wasnt for the fact you were ready to pvp. In addition there are no level 1 newbs going to level 50 pvp zones. In fact there are pvp zones for all levels of players all the way up until level 49, then there is a level 50 zone. In addition players are safe from griefing because pvp is not allowed in pve zones. Even if you were griefed you wouldnt lose anything, so the rare example you might give still is not the same. Your comparison to DAOC is way off. paade - who cares if a vet can kill 20 newbs or not, that has nothing to do with griefing. Griefing can be just 1v1 where the high level kills a low level while they are PVE and at 1% life. So whether 20 newbs can kill a vet makes no difference. Unless you are suggesting they are putting in a feature where you can gate in 20 people right on top of the spot where the person who last killed you is currently standing. Maybe then it would make a difference. But I havent heard that feature yet. I still havent heard a decent reason on why griefing is needed in any game. And why griefing shouldnt be completely eliminated.
Ok.. back to the DAoC example.
Yes DAoC was divided into pvp zones. But in each pvp zone it is the same as in Darkfall.
BG20-24 - One lvl 24 could easily kill 4 lvl20 50 Frontiers - One RR8 could easily kill 4 RR1
With other worlds the lvl difference between the DAoC zones is exactly the same as in Darkfall generally. Maybe it is in DAoC even a little bit more.
You also denied all other forms of griefing, so just one left. One guy kill another guy during lvling or some other actions, when he is not prepared. And you a said this was not the point in DAoC.
And now i say it is also not the point in Darkfall.
You said, if you entered the pvp zones you were prepared.
And i say, if you leave the towns in Darkfall you should be also prepared.
In other words.. it is exactly the same. Plus you have in Darkfall a lot of other mechanismn to stop a lot of things nevertheless.
Originally posted by Apraxis Ok.. back to the DAoC example.
Yes DAoC was divided into pvp zones. But in each pvp zone it is the same as in Darkfall.
BG20-24 - One lvl 24 could easily kill 4 lvl20 50 Frontiers - One RR8 could easily kill 4 RR1
With other worlds the lvl difference between the DAoC zones is exactly the same as in Darkfall generally. Maybe it is in DAoC even a little bit more.
You also denied all other forms of griefing, so just one left. One guy kill another guy during lvling or some other actions, when he is not prepared. And you a said this was not the point in DAoC.
And now i say it is also not the point in Darkfall.
You said, if you entered the pvp zones you were prepared.
And i say, if you leave the towns in Darkfall you should be also prepared.
In other words.. it is exactly the same. Plus you have in Darkfall a lot of other mechanismn to stop a lot of things nevertheless.
First your RR8 killing 4 RR1's scenario is far fetched. Only way this would happen is if the RR1's choose not to fight. Maybe in some rare case, but certainly not the norm. Sounds to me like you never even played the game in an PVP/RVR capacity.
Your point of leaving town being prepared is just an unintelligent remark. That would be like the police saying they wont protect you from thieves and murderers if you leave your house. You should just be prepared. LOL ya that makes alot of sense. Let the world have utter chaos just so a few griefers can run around making havoc because they cant be bothered to actually go to a pvp zone and fight people thier own skill/level. No we must allow newbs to be constantly bombarded by griefers.
Hmmm let me see if I understand this. You suggest that someone shouldnt solo PVE, craft, get resources .... unless they are perfectly OK with griefers taking everything they have. There is a smart move on the part of the game developers. Lets inconvievence 98% of the population so that 2% of the population can have a great time at the expense of everyone else.
I got a better idea. How about they just ban the 2% of the population that is causing this problem. That way the other 98% of the population can enjoy a pvp game and not a griefing game. Maybe then the game might actually get subscribers? An even better idea, implement the rules necessary to keep the 2% away from the game in the first place, or if they do decide to join, they cannot achieve their goals to grief?
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by Apraxis Ok.. back to the DAoC example.
Yes DAoC was divided into pvp zones. But in each pvp zone it is the same as in Darkfall.
BG20-24 - One lvl 24 could easily kill 4 lvl20 50 Frontiers - One RR8 could easily kill 4 RR1
With other worlds the lvl difference between the DAoC zones is exactly the same as in Darkfall generally. Maybe it is in DAoC even a little bit more.
You also denied all other forms of griefing, so just one left. One guy kill another guy during lvling or some other actions, when he is not prepared. And you a said this was not the point in DAoC.
And now i say it is also not the point in Darkfall.
You said, if you entered the pvp zones you were prepared.
And i say, if you leave the towns in Darkfall you should be also prepared.
In other words.. it is exactly the same. Plus you have in Darkfall a lot of other mechanismn to stop a lot of things nevertheless.
First your RR8 killing 4 RR1's scenario is far fetched. Only way this would happen is if the RR1's choose not to fight. Maybe in some rare case, but certainly not the norm. Sounds to me like you never even played the game in an PVP/RVR capacity.
Your point of leaving town being prepared is just an unintelligent remark. That would be like the police saying they wont protect you from thieves and murderers if you leave your house. You should just be prepared. LOL ya that makes alot of sense. Let the world have utter chaos just so a few griefers can run around making havoc because they cant be bothered to actually go to a pvp zone and fight people thier own skill/level. No we must allow newbs to be constantly bombarded by griefers.
Hmmm let me see if I understand this. You suggest that someone shouldnt solo PVE, craft, get resources .... unless they are perfectly OK with griefers taking everything they have. There is a smart move on the part of the game developers. Lets inconvievence 98% of the population so that 2% of the population can have a great time at the expense of everyone else.
I got a better idea. How about they just ban the 2% of the population that is causing this problem. That way the other 98% of the population can enjoy a pvp game and not a griefing game. Maybe then the game might actually get subscribers? An even better idea, implement the rules necessary to keep the 2% away from the game in the first place, or if they do decide to join, they cannot achieve their goals to grief?
Well.. i Armsmen RR8 with MOB5 and a lot of other shit.. like IP and MOP could easily kill 4 other melee RR1, and i killed them, i even tested it. Almost the same as Caster, against RR1 caster. Ok, it depent in which state you played it.. i tought about this before ToA and Artefacts.
But i think it is useless, you do not want a pvp game, to be honest, i really do not know what you want.. but if DAoC is ok for you.. maybe WAR will be the right thing for you.. but not Darkfall..
I could write a roman, why you need a open environment for a lot of things.. i could write a roman why you need player loot and so on. But to be honest, it would be just useless work. You will not understand it.. i do not even know if you read it. Play your games and it is alright... play whatever you want.. there are a lot of games out there.
Well.. i Armsmen RR8 with MOB5 and a lot of other shit.. like IP and MOP could easily kill 4 other melee RR1, and i killed them, i even tested it. Almost the same as Caster, against RR1 caster. Ok, it depent in which state you played it.. i tought about this before ToA and Artefacts.
But i think it is useless, you do not want a pvp game, to be honest, i really do not know what you want.. but if DAoC is ok for you.. maybe WAR will be the right thing for you.. but not Darkfall..
I could write a roman, why you need a open environment for a lot of things.. i could write a roman why you need player loot and so on. But to be honest, it would be just useless work. You will not understand it.. i do not even know if you read it. Play your games and it is alright... play whatever you want.. there are a lot of games out there. I find this statement funny considering nobody seems to be able to give a good reason why griefing is needed. Its perfectly clear why the necessity of griefing cannot be articulated. The reason is there is no good reason.
I love to PVP. I like PVP games, im not posting in the EQ forum, nor have I ever played EQ. In UO I played since its release right through trammel patch (3-4 yrs), I had 5 houses/towers on same account in Felluca (pvp area). I dont even think I ever went to Trammel in that game other then to maybe buy something at a vendor. Main reason is Felluca had more incentives to be in that zone. In DAOC after hitting 50 all I did was pvp (3yrs). In WoW I played on a PVP server, and PVPed moderately (1yr).
What I dont want is a game that will fall apart in a few months because either everyone leaves or nobody joins in the first place. Griefing/exploits/hacks/radar ... all will cause that to happen. I can actually make a pretty broad statement in that games that allow those to happen widespread fail, games that dont succeed.
I am interested in a game where intelligence and skill are most important, and gear / levels do not matter. The developers of this game seem to be making a similiar game to UO, which was a fantastic game. If they are smart the will make sure they have something similiar to the Trammel patch in place before release of the game. If they dont then the game will flop, which would be a shame because this game does have potential.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by Apraxis Well.. i Armsmen RR8 with MOB5 and a lot of other shit.. like IP and MOP could easily kill 4 other melee RR1, and i killed them, i even tested it. Almost the same as Caster, against RR1 caster. Ok, it depent in which state you played it.. i tought about this before ToA and Artefacts.
But i think it is useless, you do not want a pvp game, to be honest, i really do not know what you want.. but if DAoC is ok for you.. maybe WAR will be the right thing for you.. but not Darkfall..
I could write a roman, why you need a open environment for a lot of things.. i could write a roman why you need player loot and so on. But to be honest, it would be just useless work. You will not understand it.. i do not even know if you read it. Play your games and it is alright... play whatever you want.. there are a lot of games out there.I find this statement funny considering nobody seems to be able to give a good reason why griefing is needed. Its perfectly clear why the necessity of griefing cannot be articulated. The reason is there is no good reason.
I love to PVP. I like PVP games, im not posting in the EQ forum, nor have I ever played EQ. In UO I played since its release right through trammel patch (3-4 yrs), I had 5 houses/towers on same account in Felluca (pvp area). I dont even think I ever went to Trammel in that game other then to maybe buy something at a vendor. Main reason is Felluca had more incentives to be in that zone. In DAOC after hitting 50 all I did was pvp (3yrs). In WoW I played on a PVP server, and PVPed moderately (1yr).
What I dont want is a game that will fall apart in a few months because either everyone leaves or nobody joins in the first place. Griefing/exploits/hacks/radar ... all will cause that to happen. I can actually make a pretty broad statement in that games that allow those to happen widespread fail, games that dont succeed.
I am interested in a game where intelligence and skill are most important, and gear / levels do not matter. The developers of this game seem to be making a similiar game to UO, which was a fantastic game. If they are smart the will make sure they have something similiar to the Trammel patch in place before release of the game. If they dont then the game will flop, which would be a shame because this game does have potential.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
Omfg.. i am in no case a griefer, not even similar to it. I played almost the same games as you. UO, DAoC, SB a lil bit, and then WoW just a lil bit. But i know darkfall will be the next great game for me, and i know(from the standpoint of a crafter, tradsmen, smith) that a open environment, and especially full loot will make the crafting experience much much better. Because your items will be really needed, because it is thrilling, dangerous and a real challenge to get the resources make some stuff and sell it for a good price, and not just like in games like WoW, DAoC where you crafted almost without any win, because you could not sell it.. one million crafters.. because it was not a challenge, not a problem, not thrilling or dangerous.. just stupid and boring. The pvp will be also much much more intensive with the danger all around, like it was in UO.
I know the reward you get, is the risk worth.. and they have some rules, that the griefers will be just a small number, and not important.. at least my guess.
And griefing/hacks/exploits/radar is a curse of all games.. DAoC i had enough problems with hacking and radar using groups.. and with ToA problems with ninja looter and so on.
The devs can make a lil bit, but griefing is almost unavoidable.. you can just reduce it. And i think the darkfall concept sounds well round out, but i always take the little risk, the few griefer for a real free and open environment, where any action(even dumb resource farming) is thrilling and dangerour, and by doings have some meaning. In DAoC you could do what ever you want.. it was meaningless.. Sure.. after some time you become the Leet or whatever Group and it was fun for a while.. but becomes boring very fast. In WoW it becomes boring much much faster.. i played it just a few month.
You have been given a lot of arguements why Open PvP is needed.
You are just too focused on the negative side of it ( seen from your perspective ) that you think freedom should be sacrificed.
Now you wrote
Its perfectly clear why the necessity of griefing cannot be articulated. The reason is there is no good reason.
Griefing is your biased opinion on people using freedom to interact with you in a negative way. If you dont like it forget about darkfall. Guess what this is a multiplayer game, you are part of the world you play in. Why should you be safe in a virtual world when there are SO many other games that do just that ?
You havent moved one inch on what people have been trying to tell you. You sir are stuck in a loop.
Open PvP = Freedom
Freedom = griefing ( in your biased view )
Thus we eliminate Freedom ?
There are consequences when you abuse your freedom to inflict harm on others in Darkfall, read the entire thread as it looks like you missed it.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
with your gaming and PVP experience, im amazed that you still dont get it, while theres already 30k+ people who do get it (and the game is still in pre-beta and unknown to large public).
Oh well, there is lot of other, less scary, games for you.
Omfg.. i am in no case a griefer, not even similar to it. I played almost the same games as you. UO, DAoC, SB a lil bit, and then WoW just a lil bit. But i know darkfall will be the next great game for me, and i know(from the standpoint of a crafter, tradsmen, smith) that a open environment, and especially full loot will make the crafting experience much much better. Because your items will be really needed, because it is thrilling, dangerous and a real challenge to get the resources make some stuff and sell it for a good price, and not just like in games like WoW, DAoC where you crafted almost without any win, because you could not sell it.. one million crafters.. because it was not a challenge, not a problem, not thrilling or dangerous.. just stupid and boring. The pvp will be also much much more intensive with the danger all around, like it was in UO.
I know the reward you get, is the risk worth.. and they have some rules, that the griefers will be just a small number, and not important.. at least my guess.
And griefing/hacks/exploits/radar is a curse of all games.. DAoC i had enough problems with hacking and radar using groups.. and with ToA problems with ninja looter and so on.
The devs can make a lil bit, but griefing is almost unavoidable.. you can just reduce it. And i think the darkfall concept sounds well round out, but i always take the little risk, the few griefer for a real free and open environment, where any action(even dumb resource farming) is thrilling and dangerour, and by doings have some meaning. In DAoC you could do what ever you want.. it was meaningless.. Sure.. after some time you become the Leet or whatever Group and it was fun for a while.. but becomes boring very fast. In WoW it becomes boring much much faster.. i played it just a few month.
I see the point you are trying to make here. That you need griefing to make it dangerous. The problem is its a limited viewpoint. Its not dangerous to the griefer or high level. Its only dangerous to the newb. The griefer isnt in danger at all, because they dont PVE or resource gather. They focus on griefing which has no danger. If you wanted danger to the griefer then maybe something could be implimented where if the griefer kills over a certain amount of newbs, then anytime they die thier entire bank vault/house/personal items were on thier corpse. Not just the few personal items they bring to the griefing spree but something that truly makes it risky for them. But then if that was the cause you wouldnt see to many griefers, because they dont want risk. They want everyone else to have risk but not themselves.
If you really want a dangerous environment. Maybe play DAOC get a level 20 guy and go into the level 50 RVR zone? You can run from people all day without any chance of killing people. That sure sounds fun.
Makeme - I am sorry but you are making a huge stretch that Freedom = Griefing. I have already said before there is no difference from Freedom = Hacks, Freedom = Exploits. You dont seem to see a problem removing those and limiting peoples freedom. Someone can actually make a good arguement that Exploits are less harmful to a game then Griefing.
Comments
Well alot of this seems like pre-trammel UO. Your evil alignment thing wont prevent greifing. That seems to be a copy from UO, same thing they had basically. All people would do is have one red (evil) character and 1 blue (good character). The blue would buy all the stuff in town that the red needed. Therefore the red would never need to go to town.
3-4 newbs can kill a veteran? Ya what about when the veteran has all the advantages, like superior numbers, or coordinates the attack when the targets are engaged in battle with monsters... Believe me this wont stop griefing, been there done that.
You are right however I am not in beta for this game so I dont know every detail, what I do know however is that every game I have ever seen has ways to spots newbs pretty simple. Sure it might not show up for every idiot to see. But every ganker can tell, using things like, special areas where newbs congregate, weapon/armor graphics, general gameplay, various zones ..... All of these signals will tell the greifer the strength of the target.
In UO pre trammel (which sounds extremely similiar to this game) evil griefers could go forever without ever dieing. In fact they actually had penalties where they would lose 15% of thier skill, basically making them suck if they died, yet still all they did was grief so there was never any risk of dieing. Griefing was so bad under this system that PVP was almost non existent, mostly it was just griefing. On top of all that, people could macro off all thier evil faction, which sounds like the exact same thing they can do in this game.
Are all the zones where people can skill, gain items, craft .... are they guard zones? Otherwise I really dont see your point, how is this game going to prevent griefing on a massive scale.
Well alot of this seems like pre-trammel UO. Your evil alignment thing wont prevent greifing. That seems to be a copy from UO, same thing they had basically. All people would do is have one red (evil) character and 1 blue (good character). The blue would buy all the stuff in town that the red needed. Therefore the red would never need to go to town.
It looks like they will make it so that you can only have one character/server, of course ambitious griefer just goes and buys another account but at least it makes it more rare.
3-4 newbs can kill a veteran? Ya what about when the veteran has all the advantages, like superior numbers, or coordinates the attack when the targets are engaged in battle with monsters... Believe me this wont stop griefing, been there done that.
In what game have you 'been there, done that'? In what MMORPG can few noobies kill a vet? Not UO, thats for sure.
You are right however I am not in beta for this game so I dont know every detail, what I do know however is that every game I have ever seen has ways to spots newbs pretty simple. Sure it might not show up for every idiot to see. But every ganker can tell, using things like, special areas where newbs congregate, weapon/armor graphics, general gameplay, various zones ..... All of these signals will tell the greifer the strength of the target.
...but the griefer can never be 100% sure of the outcome, unlike in other mmorpgs. And thats the biggest anti-griefer factor, griefers dont want to lose.
In UO pre trammel (which sounds extremely similiar to this game) evil griefers could go forever without ever dieing. In fact they actually had penalties where they would lose 15% of thier skill, basically making them suck if they died, yet still all they did was grief so there was never any risk of dieing. Griefing was so bad under this system that PVP was almost non existent, mostly it was just griefing. On top of all that, people could macro off all thier evil faction, which sounds like the exact same thing they can do in this game.
What little ive played UO, there is no way in hell that few noobies could ever kill 7xGM, hence no fear of dieing. Good luck trying the same in DF.
But that last comment you made is actually a pretty good question, can we macro our aligment (effectively)?
Are all the zones where people can skill, gain items, craft .... are they guard zones? Otherwise I really dont see your point, how is this game going to prevent griefing on a massive scale.
There are no zones, only safety you ever find in DF is your friends and clanmates, outside of cities guarded by friendly mobs that is.
It is you who has to mould the gameworld around you to find anykind of safety, its actually pretty easy by uniting with other people. Once youre surrounded by 200 clanmates (even if every one of them is a total noobie), a solo griefer will have to move to another area in order to continue his chosen profession.
But im not in beta either and who knows, maybe the game will suck in every possible way. But until beta, there is only a list of promises and use of logic to argue how everything will go smooth. So far, i honestly cant find any serious flaws in their design. And that is pretty damn rare.
I was being sarcastic with that comment. My point is I have heard claims in many games that 3-4 newbs can kill a verteran. UO this is certainly possible, however it is sooo rare that it just doesnt exist. Sure "technically" 3-4 newbs with say 80 magery and maybe 70 EI (or whatever the acronym that enhances magery damage, its been awhile for me). The 3 - 4 people all casting Exposion/Corp Por around the same time, with a well timed paralyze, could kill a 7x GM.
However is that ever going to happen? NO
The main reasons are, the Veteran knows the game mechanics, knows the terrain, has magic resistance, potions, awesome weapons, armor, all sorts of other stuff. Most importantly they time thier attacks at very opportune times, like attacking when the 3-4 people are engaged in a tuff battle with a few mobs, usually the griefer trains a few mobs to the group to confuse things even more. Also surprise is a huge factor and most griefers travel in packs, any decent griefer can have 3-4 people dead before they even know whats going on.
Then the griefer /spits on the corpses and laughs at the newbs at how bad they suck, loots the bodies .... Then another high level player who sees the evil player shows up, and off to the races the evil person runs, loot in hand right into thier safe house.
This isnt pvp, there is no combat, or risk, you might as well just give the griefer a NUKE button that automatically kills whoever they want, from the safty of thier house.
I am certainly not advocating the game allowing newbs to kill vets, that would take away skill. I am saying why put newbs in a situation where they can be killed while skilling up. Should be if you want to pvp then you pvp, if u want to pve you should be safe. Would eliminate griefing and force pvp. But I suppose the griefers dont like that idea, but then they would actually have to fight equally skilled players, and cant pretend to be godly.
A lot of arguements for both sides, and some goods on both, too.
Sure, griefing will be possible, in any game, but nevertheless it is in Darkfall not really easy, and the lowlvl(better lowskill) player will have options to avoid to be griefed. But it is possible, as in any other game pve incl., too.
The darkfall concept is really well rounded, and the best openpvp concept i have ever seen, with almost unlimited options and freedom.
You will always take some risk, you will always die, sometimes, but you can do something, you can try to avoid it, you can prepare yourself. And you can do in this onlineworld of darkfall much much more things than in every other game, which exist or is in development at the moment.
It is a pvp game, but it can also be fun for crafter, roleplayer, trader and a lot of other playing styles. And you need as much freedom as possible for some playstyles to be really funny. If you are a roleplayer you need freedom and a dynamic world to have real roleplaying experience and to shape the world. If you are a crafter/trader you need freedom and a dynamic world to build up a trading empire, become rich, and have real influence with this money to shape the world. If you are a pvp player(or maybe better said a warfare player) you need as much freedom and a dynamic world as possible, to build up cities, conquer empires, become a leader of a mighty empire, lead a army in a meaningful war(or be just one warrior in this army) and shape the world.
All this are all extremely thrilling and satisfactory experiences, which are worth the little risk. Darkfall offers this experiences and also offers options to avoid to be griefed. If you could name just one game(existed or in development), which offers similar things and is better concept wise, well... then just cry it out, and i will test it.
(EvE Online is maybe the only one, which come at least really near to this)
But until then darkfall is the most anticipated mmorpg for me and a lot of other peoples.
But however, if you are the pvp player, which want just the fight, and nothing else, well then there are some other games, which may be better.. but darkfall is more than just simple pvp. And that is the point.
Well my point is that all of this has already been done before in UO PRE Trammel. I really have heard nothing yet that is any different then UO actually that will stop griefing from being central to this game. Its unfortunate really, because UO was a good game but because griefing was such a problem they overnerfed thier entire PVP system just to save the game. What really should have happened was putting into place some minor fixes to make griefers either leave the game because they had no targets, or PVP with the real pvpers.
I notice you keep saying wait and see. But I really dont need to wait until a bus runs over me to know if it will hurt. So far the systems in place are almost identical to another game, (sounds almost exactly like UO) This game had a huge problem with griefing.
I really dont see why you all want griefing at all actually. Is it because you think its an unsolvable problem? Or is it just that you are part of the 2% that thinks its worth making life misable for the other 98% is worth it? I am not sure why you think there has to be some choice of tons of griefing or no pvp at all? Its not that difficult to put in place serious consequences to griefers at the same time keeping a solid pvp environment.
This game really has potential in the PVP system if they can just eliminate the griefing problem that WILL happen if no other rules are implemented.
Open PvP will bring freedom back to the MMO. We have been longing for this freedom for so long and there are so many big titles who neglected this very important aspect of MMO´s.
So give it up, Open PvP is upon us in Darkfall. If you cannot deal with dying or loosing your items you need more time in the other mmo´s before you understand why we need this.
Someone being rude to you ?
You can throw that fat axe in his face
Someone stealing your loot ?
You can throw that fat axe in his face
Someone being kind to you ?
You can throw that fat axe in his face
Its all about YOU CAN
and not about YOU CANT
When you ready to risk something in order to gain something you will be old enough for darkfall. But demanding safety in a game is a contradiction of what you are in the game. Be a hero and face evil stop crying about gankers and start your crusade in game to get rid of em.
Cheers
You should read more about the alignment system, it is not the same as in UO, it is a little bit different.
But nevertheless, it will not stop, that any other guy can kill you, and will do it. It will prevent griefers to some extent, but it will not stop it completely and it is unpossible, too.
Ok, just look at another pvp game.. hmm about what pvp game you want talk? WoW? DAoC? Ok, lets talk about DAoC.
In DAoC you have some safezones, within you can not be attacked.
In the PvP zones you can just be attacked from the opposite side, but nevertheless if you enter the pvp zone you can be griefed like in any other game.. you do not lose your loot, but your time.
But now talk about the safezones.. you can not be griefed in it? Not really true. You can be scamed, ninja looting is always possible, to draw dangerous mobs is possible, spot stealing is possible and so on and so forth.
Griefing is a factor even in the safezones of DAoC, and you can do nothing against it.. just call a GM, but we all know not a lot will happen.
In Darkfall those forms of griefing are also possible, but you can at least kill them, but you can also be killed.
So where is the difference?
In DAoC the griefer can do it as long as he want.. nothing will change, the only thing, which will stop him is, that it may be boring after some time.
In Darkfall the griefer will be evil after some time, what will change with it?
He can not enter the capitol town, he can not enter the most player towns, he can not trade with the most npcs, he will be kos for the most players.
You have to know, that you can only increase your alignment, if you kill other evil players. This mean, that a lot of player which become evil and do not want it anymore will hunt the other evil guys. It is not like in UO, where you need just some time or some money.. you must hunt griefers(or evil players) to get good again. And it is like a point system.. let say from -100 to +100.. and let asume 1 point per kill. So if you are the evil griefer bastard with -100 you must hunt down at least 100 evil guys to be just neutral, and even more to be good again. It will demand some time... and you have to do a good job for the community.. hunting down the griefer and take away their stuff. This will hurt.
And what effect will it have?
Some things
- you will be able to consider griefers
- griefers will be hunted
And this two simple points lead to the situation, that it will be quit hard for griefers.
But some other points which make it also easier for the "normal" player.
- If you die it is not neccassary to go back to your corpse. Which will avoid corpse camping. You will wake up on your bind point.. normally your clan city or the capital city for noob players.. almost safe areas.
- no low level only zones.. no dedicated zones for griefers to hunt their pray
- no possible clue to detect which player is a veteran or a noob. No name tag, no level above the head, no armor which say you are a high or a low level
- they think about a single character server, or that all characters share the same alignment.. it is not decided until now.. so it will be not as easy to get money for your griefer, or play both a griefer and the good guy.
- they have the evil town.. a place where the evil play can bind and buy stuff.. the stuff will somewhat more expensive.. but this have also a counter part.. it seperate the evil players from the good ones. They must at first travel to the area where the easy pray could be.. and it may be a hard travel, a lot of other evil guys, which may kill you, you the griefer and take your stuff.. of course
- some quests will be alignment based, you will not be able to get some quests as a evil player, you will not be able to get some prestige classes.. but nevertheless maybe some special quests for the evil guys, too.. the same with the prestige classes. Another seperation.
I think this are more than enough points to limit griefing without killing the open world and the open pvp.
Apraxis - Making a DAOC comparison to griefing doesnt even make sense unless you are talking about Mordred server (which is a grief fest server) exact reason only a couple people actually play on that server.
So assuming you are talking about the 99% of other players playing on some other type of server in DAOC, I dont even see how you can be griefed. Maybe ganked, 2v1 4v1 100v1 but surely not griefed. You wouldnt even be in the zone if it wasnt for the fact you were ready to pvp. In addition there are no level 1 newbs going to level 50 pvp zones. In fact there are pvp zones for all levels of players all the way up until level 49, then there is a level 50 zone. In addition players are safe from griefing because pvp is not allowed in pve zones. Even if you were griefed you wouldnt lose anything, so the rare example you might give still is not the same. Your comparison to DAOC is way off.
paade - who cares if a vet can kill 20 newbs or not, that has nothing to do with griefing. Griefing can be just 1v1 where the high level kills a low level while they are PVE and at 1% life. So whether 20 newbs can kill a vet makes no difference. Unless you are suggesting they are putting in a feature where you can gate in 20 people right on top of the spot where the person who last killed you is currently standing. Maybe then it would make a difference. But I havent heard that feature yet.
I still havent heard a decent reason on why griefing is needed in any game. And why griefing shouldnt be completely eliminated.
Brainy you are simply not fit to play games with risks involved. You dont get why it is so important to have freedom even if the outcome in some situations are negative in your view.
Freedom is being able to steal what is not yours but moral is what is staying your hand. You sir need to seperate these two.
Removing the freedom = removing the dynamics of player interaction, making the world static and uninteresting.
You have to accept the fact that players are indeed what drives a mmo , the framework should only provide tools for the players not strict rules that limits their freedom because of ethics outside the game.
Play the game in its context instead and be a true champion of virtue. That will win you more respect in the game than you do outside the game on these boards right now.
Stop the whining and accept freedom has its good and bad sides. And what you want is to remove that freedom in order for you to feel safe.. ( in a game ) wake up.
Cheers
Makeme - Freedom defined by you to be what exactly? Even in America there are laws and rules to govern freedom. You cant just do whatever you want when you want to. In fact the ruleset you are proposing is pure chaos and does not exist in any civilization.
I would also point out, that when you suggest Freedom to grief, that can easily be freedom to hack? Freedom to dupe? Freedom to exploit? Why is there some distinction? I am sure there is a small group of players (probably the same exact 2% that grief) that love to hack, dupe, use 3rd party exploits, and a list of other destructive things that ruin the gameplay for the majority. Just because a few people want to do whatever they please doesnt mean that games have to make games that appeal to them. What makes it almost hypocritical about that, is that greifers/hackers/dupers/exploiters dont even like playing games with similiar players. Therefore the only way they can have fun is to ruin the experience of players that dont do those things. That means that you just cant make a game for that 2% and let them be happy. You have to make a game that draws in the other groups, so that this small minority can ruin the game for 98% of the population just so that they can have a little fun.
Almost makes me think similiar to child molesters and rapist, you cant just stick them all on and island and say live free and happy. The only way they are happy is to have victims, so getting them all together in one group would actually make them want to leave their utopia island of freedom, unless you import fresh victims for them. So victims can live free and happy without predators, but predators cant live hapy without victims. How ironic.
Have you ever thought that maybe these game manufactures want to make money? They dont want to be like SB and see thier entire playerbase dissapear.
Freedom is what i wrote before. Its being able to do everything regardless of ethics. And yes like America there are rules in darkfall.
I did not suggest any ruleset i stated that mmo´s need total freedom regardless of real life ethics. The consequence for those actions however are a whole new discussion. And if you read up on the answers you got from others users you would see that the consequences are indeed a lot tougher than previously seen.
Freedom to grief yes ( grief is a very weird and broad term imo but im guessing you mean being killed unfairly ) , freedom to hack no as that is messing with that framework and that has nothing to do with playing thats just sabotage and cheating. So yes there is a BIG distinction you however fail to see it.
Killing you in game is no violation of the agreement, hacking, duping, exploit is. Can you see it now ?
Killing you in real life is a breach of real life ethics and that is a no go and my morals and society laws would bring consequences if i were to pursue that. But i could if my motivation where that twisted. ( i want those possibilities in the games AND the consequences should be there too absolutely )
The reason i want that freedom is not because i want to rape newbies over n over ( i would rather rape those who want to rape those newbies ) , simply because there is a much bigger challenge in playing a good guy that actually stays a good guy. Say for instance that someone doing something evil but its not shown in alignment, then i can trash my own alignment in order to punish the real evil ( the guy that hides behind the framework )
And i have fun with everyone even when 20 red pkers come rolling me over, i unlike you adapt to the situation where you rather wanna complain that someone is organized in an evil way.
Now you dont like it that the game can be unfair. Well i do it brings a hell of a lot more excitement.
I think Darkfall producers are very aware of the making money part, this is exactly why they are making a mmorg that is not in the same catagory as EQ2 and WOW this game is focused on player interaction and conflict.
If youre killing mobs alone and someone kills you, thats not griefing. Thats just something you either have to get used to, or become smarter and avoid such situations and next time bring friends.
If you still dont get this, then i guess DF is not for you.
Yes DAoC was divided into pvp zones. But in each pvp zone it is the same as in Darkfall.
BG20-24 - One lvl 24 could easily kill 4 lvl20
50 Frontiers - One RR8 could easily kill 4 RR1
With other worlds the lvl difference between the DAoC zones is exactly the same as in Darkfall generally. Maybe it is in DAoC even a little bit more.
You also denied all other forms of griefing, so just one left. One guy kill another guy during lvling or some other actions, when he is not prepared. And you a said this was not the point in DAoC.
And now i say it is also not the point in Darkfall.
You said, if you entered the pvp zones you were prepared.
And i say, if you leave the towns in Darkfall you should be also prepared.
In other words.. it is exactly the same. Plus you have in Darkfall a lot of other mechanismn to stop a lot of things nevertheless.
First your RR8 killing 4 RR1's scenario is far fetched. Only way this would happen is if the RR1's choose not to fight. Maybe in some rare case, but certainly not the norm. Sounds to me like you never even played the game in an PVP/RVR capacity.
Your point of leaving town being prepared is just an unintelligent remark. That would be like the police saying they wont protect you from thieves and murderers if you leave your house. You should just be prepared. LOL ya that makes alot of sense. Let the world have utter chaos just so a few griefers can run around making havoc because they cant be bothered to actually go to a pvp zone and fight people thier own skill/level. No we must allow newbs to be constantly bombarded by griefers.
Hmmm let me see if I understand this. You suggest that someone shouldnt solo PVE, craft, get resources .... unless they are perfectly OK with griefers taking everything they have. There is a smart move on the part of the game developers. Lets inconvievence 98% of the population so that 2% of the population can have a great time at the expense of everyone else.
I got a better idea. How about they just ban the 2% of the population that is causing this problem. That way the other 98% of the population can enjoy a pvp game and not a griefing game. Maybe then the game might actually get subscribers? An even better idea, implement the rules necessary to keep the 2% away from the game in the first place, or if they do decide to join, they cannot achieve their goals to grief?
First your RR8 killing 4 RR1's scenario is far fetched. Only way this would happen is if the RR1's choose not to fight. Maybe in some rare case, but certainly not the norm. Sounds to me like you never even played the game in an PVP/RVR capacity.
Your point of leaving town being prepared is just an unintelligent remark. That would be like the police saying they wont protect you from thieves and murderers if you leave your house. You should just be prepared. LOL ya that makes alot of sense. Let the world have utter chaos just so a few griefers can run around making havoc because they cant be bothered to actually go to a pvp zone and fight people thier own skill/level. No we must allow newbs to be constantly bombarded by griefers.
Hmmm let me see if I understand this. You suggest that someone shouldnt solo PVE, craft, get resources .... unless they are perfectly OK with griefers taking everything they have. There is a smart move on the part of the game developers. Lets inconvievence 98% of the population so that 2% of the population can have a great time at the expense of everyone else.
I got a better idea. How about they just ban the 2% of the population that is causing this problem. That way the other 98% of the population can enjoy a pvp game and not a griefing game. Maybe then the game might actually get subscribers? An even better idea, implement the rules necessary to keep the 2% away from the game in the first place, or if they do decide to join, they cannot achieve their goals to grief?
Well.. i Armsmen RR8 with MOB5 and a lot of other shit.. like IP and MOP could easily kill 4 other melee RR1, and i killed them, i even tested it. Almost the same as Caster, against RR1 caster. Ok, it depent in which state you played it.. i tought about this before ToA and Artefacts.
But i think it is useless, you do not want a pvp game, to be honest, i really do not know what you want.. but if DAoC is ok for you.. maybe WAR will be the right thing for you.. but not Darkfall..
I could write a roman, why you need a open environment for a lot of things.. i could write a roman why you need player loot and so on. But to be honest, it would be just useless work. You will not understand it.. i do not even know if you read it. Play your games and it is alright... play whatever you want.. there are a lot of games out there.
I love to PVP. I like PVP games, im not posting in the EQ forum, nor have I ever played EQ. In UO I played since its release right through trammel patch (3-4 yrs), I had 5 houses/towers on same account in Felluca (pvp area). I dont even think I ever went to Trammel in that game other then to maybe buy something at a vendor. Main reason is Felluca had more incentives to be in that zone. In DAOC after hitting 50 all I did was pvp (3yrs). In WoW I played on a PVP server, and PVPed moderately (1yr).
What I dont want is a game that will fall apart in a few months because either everyone leaves or nobody joins in the first place. Griefing/exploits/hacks/radar ... all will cause that to happen. I can actually make a pretty broad statement in that games that allow those to happen widespread fail, games that dont succeed.
I am interested in a game where intelligence and skill are most important, and gear / levels do not matter. The developers of this game seem to be making a similiar game to UO, which was a fantastic game. If they are smart the will make sure they have something similiar to the Trammel patch in place before release of the game. If they dont then the game will flop, which would be a shame because this game does have potential.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
I love to PVP. I like PVP games, im not posting in the EQ forum, nor have I ever played EQ. In UO I played since its release right through trammel patch (3-4 yrs), I had 5 houses/towers on same account in Felluca (pvp area). I dont even think I ever went to Trammel in that game other then to maybe buy something at a vendor. Main reason is Felluca had more incentives to be in that zone. In DAOC after hitting 50 all I did was pvp (3yrs). In WoW I played on a PVP server, and PVPed moderately (1yr).
What I dont want is a game that will fall apart in a few months because either everyone leaves or nobody joins in the first place. Griefing/exploits/hacks/radar ... all will cause that to happen. I can actually make a pretty broad statement in that games that allow those to happen widespread fail, games that dont succeed.
I am interested in a game where intelligence and skill are most important, and gear / levels do not matter. The developers of this game seem to be making a similiar game to UO, which was a fantastic game. If they are smart the will make sure they have something similiar to the Trammel patch in place before release of the game. If they dont then the game will flop, which would be a shame because this game does have potential.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
Omfg.. i am in no case a griefer, not even similar to it. I played almost the same games as you.
UO, DAoC, SB a lil bit, and then WoW just a lil bit. But i know darkfall will be the next great game for me, and i know(from the standpoint of a crafter, tradsmen, smith) that a open environment, and especially full loot will make the crafting experience much much better. Because your items will be really needed, because it is thrilling, dangerous and a real challenge to get the resources make some stuff and sell it for a good price, and not just like in games like WoW, DAoC where you crafted almost without any win, because you could not sell it.. one million crafters.. because it was not a challenge, not a problem, not thrilling or dangerous.. just stupid and boring. The pvp will be also much much more intensive with the danger all around, like it was in UO.
I know the reward you get, is the risk worth.. and they have some rules, that the griefers will be just a small number, and not important.. at least my guess.
And griefing/hacks/exploits/radar is a curse of all games.. DAoC i had enough problems with hacking and radar using groups.. and with ToA problems with ninja looter and so on.
The devs can make a lil bit, but griefing is almost unavoidable.. you can just reduce it. And i think the darkfall concept sounds well round out, but i always take the little risk, the few griefer for a real free and open environment, where any action(even dumb resource farming) is thrilling and dangerour, and by doings have some meaning. In DAoC you could do what ever you want.. it was meaningless.. Sure.. after some time you become the Leet or whatever Group and it was fun for a while.. but becomes boring very fast. In WoW it becomes boring much much faster.. i played it just a few month.
You have been given a lot of arguements why Open PvP is needed.
You are just too focused on the negative side of it ( seen from your perspective ) that you think freedom should be sacrificed.
Now you wrote
Its perfectly clear why the necessity of griefing cannot be articulated. The reason is there is no good reason.
Griefing is your biased opinion on people using freedom to interact with you in a negative way. If you dont like it forget about darkfall. Guess what this is a multiplayer game, you are part of the world you play in. Why should you be safe in a virtual world when there are SO many other games that do just that ?
You havent moved one inch on what people have been trying to tell you. You sir are stuck in a loop.
Open PvP = Freedom
Freedom = griefing ( in your biased view )
Thus we eliminate Freedom ?
There are consequences when you abuse your freedom to inflict harm on others in Darkfall, read the entire thread as it looks like you missed it.
Cheers
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
with your gaming and PVP experience, im amazed that you still dont get it, while theres already 30k+ people who do get it (and the game is still in pre-beta and unknown to large public).
Oh well, there is lot of other, less scary, games for you.
I see the point you are trying to make here. That you need griefing to make it dangerous. The problem is its a limited viewpoint. Its not dangerous to the griefer or high level. Its only dangerous to the newb. The griefer isnt in danger at all, because they dont PVE or resource gather. They focus on griefing which has no danger. If you wanted danger to the griefer then maybe something could be implimented where if the griefer kills over a certain amount of newbs, then anytime they die thier entire bank vault/house/personal items were on thier corpse. Not just the few personal items they bring to the griefing spree but something that truly makes it risky for them. But then if that was the cause you wouldnt see to many griefers, because they dont want risk. They want everyone else to have risk but not themselves.
If you really want a dangerous environment. Maybe play DAOC get a level 20 guy and go into the level 50 RVR zone? You can run from people all day without any chance of killing people. That sure sounds fun.
Makeme - I am sorry but you are making a huge stretch that Freedom = Griefing. I have already said before there is no difference from Freedom = Hacks, Freedom = Exploits. You dont seem to see a problem removing those and limiting peoples freedom. Someone can actually make a good arguement that Exploits are less harmful to a game then Griefing.