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How well do you think Vanguard are doing?
ammie
Member UncommonPosts: 109
There was a time when nearly all mmorpgs were exciting! It didn't matter if it was a bit of a grind fest or the world looked as if God gave up on the 3rd day. Just playing with someone from another country and finding new friends was awesome! Together you would do quests, kill monsters and explore your world, then afterwards, maybe sit around a camp-fire discussing tactics or laughing at images of a bad pull that caused a complete wipe, relating how "Johnny" once fell through the scenery and landed on a different part of the planet whilst the whole team had to wait patiently for his return, chatting about RL .... and never once,no matter how daft you were, whether you were a timid tank or a tanking priest were you called a "noob"
How does Vanguard compete with the myriad of memories gamers have? things that to them once made their game great! Maybe brave new frontiers and more "campfires" are part of the answer to all those vets out there ( and we all know if you go back to your first childhood home, it looks less impressive than you had imagined) a return to your old game is not always the answer, for me that has been more of a trip down memory lane!
We also now have a whole new generation of mmorpg players with different memories, a magical world of great colours, super scenery .. Absorbing quests (you only have to look at the earlier comments of WoW players to see that) strong raids, which require hours of patience and planning, super instances .. and of course the great day when you finally got your hands on a hard earned mount or purple epic!!.. but somehow along with the quest mainly for items, the community has lost its importance as individuals and become more of a necessity for completing of the end game! Many times I've seen players in a guild level all the way to 60 then leave because it was the only way forward for them, then making it impossible for the guild to create enough level 60s for end game,sadly, somehow loyalty lost its importance somewhere along the way.
Houses and cities!! how great these are for bringing in social interaction .. A place to meet friends, hold competitions, create guilds, sell your crafted items and hang that special picture you found, then invite "Johnny" in to admire it! But above all it's a community to call your own and be proud of..... Even if you do have to learn a new word.......... Diplomacy!!! Vanguard sounds as if it will definitely deliver on this aspect!
Crafting!! Ah yes .. Sometimes even the greatest hero enjoys a respite from battle with a little knitting ... especially if the item he makes is a much-needed item! Vanguard seems to be delivering on this aspect too!
Emotions .. There are so many emotions and attitudes in game now, in one sense this is really meaningful, it shows us how much importance players are putting in to the games, reminds us not to forget the guy behind the keyboard, we can actually have some input into creating enjoyment for others.... but it can also go the other way, divide communities, create unhappy playersand even make or break a game. The forums are proof of that! This one is down to us not the devs!
Balance ... So how on earth do devs. balance everything, I don't envy their task ..how do you create a game that pleases old and new .. Considering a lot of new need instant gaming gratification whilst older players know some things take time ... and we all know the more players, the more money and hopefully the healthier the game!
Would be great to hear any ideas on balance ... and how well do you think the Vanguard devs. are doing?
Ammie
Comments
Nice post
I think many of us are expecting things from developers in general that *we* used to put into games ourselves - no developer, however clever and armed with however many coding monkeys, can create a sense of community, for instance. They can provide tools to foster it, sure, but a large part of community-building comes down to the players themselves.
I've been rambling down memory lane a lot myself, lately, wondering if my current disenchantment with MMORPGs stems from their shortcomings or, more simply, from the fact that *I* have changed. You can never go back to your first online game, as the saying goes - that's one part of it. Another, I believe, is that games have changed a great deal in the last few years, and many have gone down the instant-gratification route because that is, to some extent, what the players were clamoring for. And whether one is instant-grat or not, even I find myself wishing for sometimes frankly unfeasible things from games.
Back when I started playing online, it took me quite a while to forge all the friendships I ended up with, many of which have since extended into RL. Now, when I start a game, I forget how long it really took and sort of expect, at least unconsciously, insta-community - that just doesn't happen. I know it doesn't, rationally, but I irrationally forget how long such things can take to accrete, especially if they are to be meaningful. You can hook up with strangers anytime, but it takes a while to turn them into genuine friends.
Aside from that, I believe that as the gamer pool increases, drawing in people from all manner of genres rather than the more homogenous types we had early on, it may become more difficult instead of less to create (pardon the repeat) homogenous communities. These days, games tend to have many sub-communities who may have nothing much in common with each other except the game title they play. This may not be a bad thing - but it's different from the days when I identified with *anyone* playing Asheron's Call - certainly I never felt particularly part of a giant WoW-playing community - I knew there were millions of us even back when I played, but I had very little in common with most of them; in fact, I didn't have all that much in common with most of the communities on my server. That's probably just a result of size-explosions, and it may not be a bad thing as long as communities can form and hold together regardless, I guess. I'm not sure about this one.
Eh, starting to ramble, but you sparked a topic I have a great interest in. Why don't games meet my expectations these days? Have I changed, or are the design directions diverging from what I like, or both? (Probably both.) With Vanguard, it seems Sigil aims to do what they can to recapture some of what us "older" gamers loved, while at the same time drawing in new players who may find they also like that design philosophy. It may well work - but ultimately I think we (the player base) spend too much time expecting all from devs and too little thinking about what we can do to contribute to those expectations.
If nothing else, I think we need to be careful about what we wish for and how stridently we wish for it - many of the additions & game design directions we're seeing come from what players yell for over time, even if later on it turns out that we didn't really like or want them after all.
I don't think the players change as much as you think they did. You, individually have changed a lot more than the players as a whole, same for me.
You are seeing another facet, from a more experienced point of view.
The main difference is that with the specialisation of each game, so does the players overall type.
Maybe you doesn't enjoy been with kindred, with players thinking like you. I for one is happier than ever when I experience a new game. I never play more than half of the games, there is sooo many. Sometimes I regret to never have tried AC, AO, PS, SL, SO, UO, WW2O...but well, just can't try them all. And the MMOs are lucky compare to other games in general, since I try a lot more of them, then the % of any other games...with the exception of the D&D franchise, which I merely avoid 2 games...and I did try these 2 D&D games (yeah, I buy ALL other D&D titles).
YOU have changed a lot, so did I. But the players as an overall, I am pretty confident they didn't change much. However, if I tell you that the CoX community is 90% composed of sweet and very nice players, these players aren't likely to be playing another MMO, and you are missing them. Which is quite understandable, CoX got not only a decent share of the MMO market, but IMO, it got the sweetest part. Which affect every other MMO, since this sweetpart instead of been spread on many servers, is nearly completely avoiding your MMO.
For example, I NEVER see anyone but me, talking a little about Vanguard while playing CoX...and as you might know, I am not an adamant defender of Vanguard, I keep repeating that for me to consider playing it, it need to have a raid-free server. CoX will be relatively unaffected by Vanguard release, however Vanguard may draw away some of the worst players in that game, the peoples who are farming the Hamidon...and honestly, I will be thankful if Vanguard draw 1 such player away from my server in CoX, it will improve my gaming experience.
Maybe the fact that YOU change, or the fact that you don't really enjoy peoples thinking similarly to you, is what affect your mostly. Again, this is a personnal experience. I myself am by no mean a casual, no matter how hard I can try to see myself as a casual or a noob, it isn't working. However, I TRY to adapt myself so casuals are happy and enjoying themselves...which lead you to MMOs they like. If you forget about players, you are going to end up on a server with peoples thinking like you...and if you are Uber, that mean sharing the same game experience as Afterlife and FoH...LOL, let's me tell you, if I know where these guys are playing, I will pick ANYTHING without these players. A raid-free server is something I would find fun, it may also may draw casuals and most importantly, and it would keep the uber-jerks away hopefully(or bored them if they come, in a month or two, which is good to, as they will leave either for a raiding server or another MMO, either way is cool with me, especially if an expansion come out before I max 2 characters, then it would be a paradise for me)!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Quick reply because I'm not sure I fully understood the post above this one - need more caffeine!
I'm not saying players themselves have changed (though actually I do believe that to be true - people change as they age, and many of us have been playing nigh on a decade now, with different tastes and different responsibilities) -- what I was trying to touch on is that "the player base" in general is much more diverse than it used to be, pulling in people from all sorts of other game-types, backgrounds, cultures and genres, each with their own expectations of what is fun and that they'd like to see and do in a game.
I'm not claiming to have any right answers, either - just opinions, and of those I have many to spare.
I, like many of you, can reflect back upon many good experiences I have had in MMORPG's. My first trip into the Temple of The Three Winds in Anarchy Online was a superb gaming experience for me. Since then there have been many other good experiences in games such as AO, SWG, Ryzom and WoW. But what is the essence of a good MMORPG?
In my opinion, simple. The true essence of such games must be the community. In AO I felt part of a mature community where each member showed respect and consideration for others; where guilds worked together and raids took time because so much friendly chat was taking place; where a lengthy battle might be followed by an equally lengthy social chat. Many times I have laughed over my keyboard at the antics of another player and sometimes at my own. I am sure we have all done a "leeroy" or seen someone do one. Now, I am not saying that AO was or is a great MMORPG but it was my first entry into this game genre and so has quite a place in my memory.
For many gamers, SWG was the best. I tried this just as it was starting to come apart. The community was great and the early Devs had actually put much in place which encouraged community. Nearly all items had to be player made which meant that some kind of crafting had to be undertaken - it was either this or you weant round with no clothes and no weapon. Player houses, player towns and guilds encouraged further community development. And then SWG showed how the efforts of thousands of players over several years could be demolished by the Devs who decided to make drastic and far reaching changes which turned millions off the game. So, I say the Devs can make or break a game much in the same way that God can make or break Creation.
Community for Ammie appears to be an important element of the game and I would have to agree with that. But then we must understand that when we talk about community in MMORPG terms, we are talking about a society of players/characters. And, like in a real society, there should be an interdependence of characters on other characters. SWG originally perpetuated this by its very structure and the freedoms it allowed.
In reent years we have seen the rise of WoW and there appears to be a plethora of similar on the horizon. WoW is an instant gratification game. There is very little in-game structure that demands community other than to get teams together to battle in instances or raids. The crafting element is all but non-exitent since players know that boss drops or PvP grinds could yield the epic item. Other than alchemy and some enchants, the other crafting elements are redundant. In playing WoW, it is also to often to see the general chat be abused and, at times, being extremely offensive. In Ryzom, the chat is monitored on-line with warnings issued to offenders. I never met any offensive chat in AO or SWG which leads me to believe that serious, mature people played those games.
So, what must Vanguard do to ensure that players will want to move to it and remain there?
I think Ammie's post and my previous comments all hint at some of the things which should be included and some of the things which should be excluded. The structure of the game must encourage a good community. There should be monitoring of chat to discourage offence. Player houses and cities are excellent ideas and the inclusion of essential crafting and trading skills are required. There should be missions as in AO where a player can choose solo or team missions; there should be dungeon quests and there should be boos drops but these should not detract from trading and crafting. In essence, look at all the good aspects that there used to be in SWG and AO and use them.
There are clearly many more aspects required to complete the game but I do feel that these are what a game needs at its heart. Whether Vanguard will be able to deliver I do not know but here's hoping.
Thank you for your comments!
Ysharros I agree with everything you say, I don't think we can ever re-capture that "first" experience but at least it was good to be around when mmorpgs first came on the scene! Now they are so diverse no one single answer will suffice. With such a rainbow of colour we can either get a work of art or in trying to please the masses or a pool of muddy brown! Lets hope the devs give us a work of art.
Anofalye it sounds like your experiences with raids has not been too good but do you not think in a world that was large enough and raiding was not completely the end game there might be a place for it. I feel its more the lack of content in other areas, which puts too much emphasis on raiding that's at fault.
Ammie