Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Series on Issues in Player Content, Question 1: Who is a Scam Artist?
Beatnik59
Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
Situation:
Suppose we are in a game where scamming and exploits are rampant, and very costly, but the game leaves it up to the players to collectively enforce moral conduct.
Player A is someone with many friends, who has been playing a long time, in a powerful guild, and an opinion leader.
Player B is a new player, with no friends, and no guild, but honest.
Player A accuses Player B of being a scam artist/exploiter/etc., and is believed by everyone, even though Player B did not scam or exploit.
Nobody trusts Player B, because they believe what Player A has said about Player B, and do not want to risk being scammed.
Is this fair? If so, why is it fair? If not, why is it not, and what can be done about it for Player B?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
Make a new char with a different name.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
Keep playing. No one will remember in a couple of months.
year ago and someone on the forums accused me of making fun of his dead
sister, someone even mentioned it in general chat. I didn't even get
invited to groups because of it.
I waited 2 months, everyone forgot. Maybe it was because people who play WoW have short attention spans, but still.
EDIT; To the O/P it all really depends on if they tak lyk this 2 evry1.
idk about that.
an 8hr raid you've done 750 times before doesn't seem like someone with a short attention span would do, lol.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
people didn't have the misfortune of doing those raids.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The Big MMORPG List
The reason I bring this question up, is that I hear a lot of whining about how the players are not given enough tools to police themselves, and that the players are capable of policing themselves. I also hear a lot about "good reputations," and "bad reputations," and how they are important in games like EVE, SWG, and so on.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
"SHIT HAPPENS"
This situations in particular will happen even in everydays life, you don't have to look so far like in an mmo...
But as someone said, create another char, maybe in another server and forget about the bad time with this ashole
If I wanted a game of chance, I'd go to a casino. At least if I get lucky, I come away with more money.
Even still, in reality, it is a lot harder to accuse someone, and more importantly, to ruin someone. After all, we all come to life with some allies on our behalf (family/caretaker). A new MMO player has nothing, nobody, and unless there is a server transfer option, nowhere to seek refuge.
I guess next time someone comes here and argues that the players can police themselves, I'll just point them to this thread, and show how very little we care when it doesn't work. All it does it seems is cause the innocent more problems than it solves.
I mean, why should we have any reason to pay a non-refundable fee for an MMO that stresses player content, when "shit happens," and nobody has any reason to care?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Well first off it's not fair.
However, as Bluesession quite rightly asserted, life isnt fair. This isnt really something particular to mmo's. Moreover I think this shying away from communities policing themselves and real life confrontation is a very serious issue in all areas of the majority of occidental societies at the moment. People complain about the 'nanny' state and 'big brother' but we are creating and allowing this to happen by our own apathy and fears. Too many of us have the attitude that it's not our problem but someone else's or some gov. body's. Got a bit carried away there, my apologies. /socio-political rant mode off
Whatever system of judgement there is then there will always be mistakes. To err is human. I'd rather take the risk of members making mistakes than have the power taken away to a body separate from the community. I decide who I believe, no one else can do that for me unless I allow them.
Back to the point in hand, in terms of your situation, you setup a hypothetical situation. Therefore, I think you will agree it does not necessarily reflect reality as it actually is.
You implied: "eveyone believes him". That's not gonna happen. There will always be doubters and if he is the type of opinionated person you said he is then he will have annoyed people in the past with opinions they dont agree with (your opinions always do). Therefore there will always be people that take what he says with a pinch of salt or just straight up ignore everything he says.
But if you do find yourself in that situation you can do at least one of these two things. As previously said by a few posters; he has a lot more invested in his character than you, rerolling your toon shouldnt be that big of a deal for you. On the other hand, the fact that he has a lot more invested in his character is his biggest weakness. As I said before, other people will be aware that he is an opinionated hot head and take that into account and by harming your reputation he may do the same to his own with regard to people that dont take him too seriously anyway. Furthermore, if you managed to prove in some way or to start to convince people that you in fact are innocent you could cause even more damage to his reputation than was possible by him to your own. That would be difficult and not likely but still possible. Perhaps you know some other powerful people in the game that know (to the greatest degree possible cause you can never be 100% sure) that you do not exploit or scam or what have you.
Lastly, as other posters have said; in a few months most people will have forgotten the accusations and this will be exacerbated by the fact that you were a nobody. A lot more people would remember had you been a public member of the community. Moreover, if in fact you are a conscientious and well intentioned player then the effect of more people coming into contact with those actions will have a much greater lasting impact in forming their opinions of you than a few spiteful words on the forums or an in game chat channel.
P.S. If you don't mind me asking: Is there some purpose to this information that you're gathering on our opinions regarding the capability of players to police themselves other than for personal curiosity? It just seemed to me like the thread and the title warrant or betray some deeper application than just curiosity.
EDIT: My apologies, you didnt say "Everyone believes him", you implied it. (Changing 'You said...' to 'You implied...')
I dont care about you, I dont care about the fact that you cant seem to make any friends who are willing to stick up for you, I dont care that you probably are a scammer, and I dont care that youre bawling about people being mean to you. In fact, I really dont care about anything you have to think about anything.
Suck it up and deal with it or go find mommy's skirt. I dont care which you do.
even yourself is trying not to be fair...:P
Ang Sundalong Nasusugatan Nag-iibayo ang Tapang ^^^
https://gamersloot.net/catalog/
------------------------------------------------------
Do I ever sleep?
I think that those who scam, exploit, and cheat should be treated like scammers, exploiters, and cheaters.
I also think that those who do not scam, exploit, or cheat should not be treated like scammers, exploiters, and cheaters.
Now I personally feel that this is fair. If you feel that this isn't fair, then would you rather have those who scam, exploit, and cheat be treated as if they didn't scam, exploit, and cheat? And also, that those who neither scam, nor exploit, nor cheat be treated as if they did?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
QFT
It's silly to say that you don't care, when you put so much effort into trying to make him feel stupid. In any case, way to be an apathetic jerk.
Just because I or anybody else that has posted thinks that this is not a fair situation does not mean we think that players should not be allowed to moderate themselves. It is not a case of; if you want players to be able to moderate themselves then you must see this situation as fair. The situation is not fair but that is because 'to err is human' and this is not consistent with and does not validify the following assertion which you seem to be making; if we were to see it as unfair then that would mean categorically that players cant or shouldnt be allowed to moderate themselves.
Just because a hypothetical mistake was made, a hypothetical mistake that we all recognise, does not give you the right to imply that if we dont agree with you then we have all flipped 180 degrees over to those that think the players cannot moderate themselves.
Your logic is flawed to say the least.
But moreover, it is extremely difficult for one person to prove to a large group of the community that someone is without a doubt a scammer/cheater/exploiter/what have you. It's not black and white, it never will be. I still fail to see what the big deal is about this.
Perhaps have more faith in people to make up their own minds? /shrugs
EDIT: Changed a sentence that was unclear. No one has posted after this yet so it shouldnt matter too much, not like I'm changing the meaning in retrospect to what someone else has posted after me.
'Justice as Fairness' was a theory coined by John Rawls (and if I'm not mistaken has its roots from the philosophy of a classical philosopher who eludes me at the moment) but Justice and Fairness do not always go hand in hand in the actual world. There is not a country on the whole of this planet that does not have a legal system that occasionally makes mistakes, but just because we see in retrospect a decision a judge made as being the 'wrong' decision or an 'unfair' decision does not mean that suddenly we all petition our local politicians to make a move to remove these legal systems. Do you see where I'm going with that?
The system is a good system but it can still yield unfair decisions. However those unfair decisions do not nullify it's value.
QFT
It's silly to say that you don't care, when you put so much effort into trying to make him feel stupid. In any case, way to be an apathetic jerk.
Really? Its silly to say that you dont care about something, because if you didnt care, you'd sit in stony silence?
I couldnt give less of a damn how people ringing up my groceries are doing, and yet I always ask - I guess that really means I care about how they're doing, right? I need to get my latest update on the big Rick The Cashier situation - is he having a good day? Fine? Not Bad? Adequate? Up to Par? Long? I DONT KNOW AND I MUST LEARN, OTHERWISE WHY WOULD I HAVE ASKED?
When I see someone walk into a door, I dont care about them or their door-related problems. I'm still going to laugh though, since misery derived from incompetence is funny - hence why I dont care about this thread or the OP, and yet I'm still mildly amused by misery derived from incompetence.
Just because I or anybody else that has posted thinks that this is not a fair situation does not mean we think that players should not be allowed to moderate themselves. It is not a case of; if you want players to be able to moderate themselves then you must see this situation as fair. The situation is not fair but that is because 'to err is human' and this is not consistent with and does not validify the following assertion which you seem to be making; if we were to see it as unfair then that would mean categorically that players cant or shouldnt be allowed to moderate themselves.
Just because a hypothetical mistake was made, a hypothetical mistake that we all recognise, does not give you the right to imply that if we dont agree with you then we have all flipped 180 degrees over to those that think the players cannot moderate themselves.
Your logic is flawed to say the least.
But moreover, it is extremely difficult for one person to prove to a large group of the community that someone is without a doubt a scammer/cheater/exploiter/what have you. It's not black and white, it never will be. I still fail to see what the big deal is about this.
Perhaps have more faith in people to make up their own minds? /shrugs
EDIT: Changed a sentence that was unclear. No one has posted after this yet so it shouldnt matter too much, not like I'm changing the meaning in retrospect to what someone else has posted after me.
'Justice as Fairness' was a theory coined by John Rawls (and if I'm not mistaken has its roots from the philosophy of a classical philosopher who eludes me at the moment) but Justice and Fairness do not always go hand in hand in the actual world. There is not a country on the whole of this planet that does not have a legal system that occasionally makes mistakes, but just because we see in retrospect a decision a judge made as being the 'wrong' decision or an 'unfair' decision does not mean that suddenly we all petition our local politicians to make a move to remove these legal systems. Do you see where I'm going with that?
The system is a good system but it can still yield unfair decisions. However those unfair decisions do not nullify it's value.
What qualifies the players to police themselves, and what makes it a "good system?" They suffer nothing if they get it wrong, especially in terms of Player B, who is no threat to anyone, and never will become a threat, because people will be suspicious.
Because this is far from a hypothetical situation. Here is an actual case in SWG where a humble, non-forum poster, was mistakenly identified as a scammer, because the name was similar to an accused scammer.
The scammer's name was Bruceleee, and was involved in a credit duping scandal that caused many accounts to be frozen. It was originally posted as Bruceleee by the first accuser, a forum celebrity, and rich player, with many friends. However, those friends, and those who saw the posts, and posted again about the scammer, took Bruceleee (three e's) to be Brucelee (two e's).
A mistake that is easy to overlook, except for one thing. Bruceleee and Brucelee were two, totally different players.
It got to the point where more posts, and more rhetoric, cited "Brucelee" as the scammer, than "Bruceleee." Meanwhile, while Bruceleee the scammer was able to walk into houses, and continue doing dirty deeds. Brucelee the bystandard got all the blame, and some serious hate, for a crime he didn't do.
Now Brucelee was in a small guild, not on the forums at all, pretty quiet, and not all that well known before all of this. But then, he started to end up on ignore lists, people would petition CS to "ban Brucelee," and he'd get rude and accusatory /tells, bouties on him, and grief. After a few days, nobody ever saw him again. I don't know whether or not he quit, rerolled, or got banned by CS. All I know is that he got alot of it from players who were so intent on doing the right thing, that they actually did the wrong thing instead.
When I found out what was going on, I tried to tell people to stop confusing Bruceleee and Brucelee. Frankly though, I was the only one who really cared. You see, it is easy to just jump on the bandwagon, and just go along with whatever the majority decides. It is hard to actually do what's right, when the majority isn't in the mood to care about getting Bruceleee or Brucelee, as long as they get someone.
Not only that, but people thought I was annoying (kind of like here), that I was making a mountain out of a molehill (kind of like here), and that confusing Bruceleee with Brucelee was Brucelee's problem, and not the problem of the community who falsely accused him. I suffered a lot, and lost a lot of friends, because whenever I saw a thread that confused the two, I had to admonish the posters, and tell them to be more careful. They would say that it was like water over the dam, and it is no use getting upset about a player who no longer plays, even if the player was railroaded.
We aren't careful. That is why we shouldn't police ourselves.
You see, we can all make excuses as to why we cannot be perfect. The fact is, we have no reason to even try. If its not our friends, not our fun, and not our account money at stake, there is no harm in being careless, especially if we accuse a guy like humble Brucelee, who wasn't all that popular, but played by the rules, and gave more than he got in the end.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I'm not making excuses as to why we are not perfect. I'm just saying quite frankly that we are not perfect and we're not, simple as. However that doesnt mean we should become depressed, degenerate and apathetic because we take the risk of making a wrong decision once in a while and leave the responsibility to someone else. Weak people shirk responsibility, strong people take it head on and deal with the consequences as best they can.
Now this situation you talk about now is a situation that has its basis in reality but the one you were talking about originally was very much a hypothetical situation. Now I can talk about specifics.
Back to the new parameters you have added; this situation is unfortunate to say the least, but I'm sorry if I seem annoying to you and I don't mean to seem like I'm saying your annoying. I just don't care too much for you trying to dictate to me when your logic is flawed but I'm entitled to feel that way. I'm not about to tell you that you don't have the right to post your ideas.
Just because you have one, ready to hand, example of how a community made a mistake once, then that gives you absolutely no right to decide for everyone that players cannot moderate themselves. I see that you claim to have lost friends and that you have taken a hit to your own reputation by posting in defense of this brucelee with two 'ee's so it is no wonder now that I can see why this is a big deal to you. However I would say the implications for your reputation in the future would not be that great, most people except the trolls you posted in response to will forget that you posted in defense of him. Furthermore, some people will probably have a higher opinion of you for having the strength to go against the 'party-line'.
Moreover of the whole community, out of the two groups; one that jumped on the band wagon vocally and you that posted in defense, how many more people just were unsure, not effected, apathetic etc? You took a tough decision to post in his defense but it was also an honourable decision in my opinion, for that I commend you, but just because you failed is no reason to take the position you are taking now.
As you quite rightly point out the player probably did one of two things: Quit/rerolled or got banned.
If he quit/rerolled then he chose the wrong path imo, he should have stuck it out and had the strength to fight his corner. The fact is, that if he chose this path then he caved in to the revelers on the bandwagon but this is not the community's fault even though they had pressurised him and it is regretable (I'm not denying that). They may have pushed him into a corner but he was the one that chose this path, no one forced him with a gun to his head. He did have the option to walk the difficult path and do his best to show the community he was not the person they had mistakenly taken him to be.
[EDIT: In fact after re-reading your post you seem to imply that the people that railroaded him out of the game admitted later on that they had in fact been wrong or were at least open to the fact that they might have been wrong about him being the same person as the scammer, does that not seem to suggest that time would have proven him innocent anyway if he had stuck it out and argued his case? The community was careless to pressurise him like they did and should take more care, I'm not arguing with you on that point, but they are not wrong to pressurise people they believe are scammers. At least the people that were effected may have gained some experience in policing themselves and should be slightly more careful in getting the exact spelling of the person's name right in future? We are not perfect but perhaps in this case like others that practice may bring us closer.]
On the other hand, if the company banned him then it has nothing to do with players policing themselves. This path is concerned with an MMO company either not taking the time to get a decision right or just pandering to the "tyranny of the majority". In this case the blame rests with the company and not the players.
The reason (and a very important and virtuous reason I hasten to add) that we have to take these things into our own hands is that we are a part of these virtual worlds that we invest a considerable amount of resources in. Moreover the people that run these games don't always have the time and resources necessary to police them with the attention they deserve either.
What qualifies players to police themselves? The fact that they invest so much time and money in the game coupled with the fact that they all have rational/logical minds should they wish to use them.
What makes it a good system? The fact that with the lack of intervention from MMO companies due to limited resources there is no better alternative and it does work, just not in every case (like any system of judgement).
Just because a bunch of easily swayed and disgruntled n00bs took it upon themselves to ruin the game for someone that they had no proof for yet believed was a scammer, as you quite rightly say a 'careless' decision, does not negate the value of players policing themselves. In order to do this you would have to show that players never/very rarely get a decision right or that there is some other method that has far better results for judgement. Proving that it is possible for players to get a decision wrong does not nullify the value.
Moreover, as far as I can see, the only way that you or anyone else could ever be 100% sure that someone was not a scammer was if you were that person who was accused. How could you be so sure that it was not the same person or that Mr. Lee with two 'ee's was not also a scammer? (If you admit there could be a chance that he was then this does not negate your argument or negate my arguments resulting from the assumption that I have taken to be true that he was indeed not a scammer, but it is something perhaps you should think about.) How could you be sure that this first player to publicly denounce him did not in fact know something else that he kept to himself? /shrugs again
We're not perfect and don't always get everything right, but is that really a reason not to try and make things better?
EDIT: Grammar