Starting to worry!

Sharkypal · November 2006

http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=431

Towards the bottom of this article there are some comments that imply that the focus of this game has switched from the hardcore MMO market to the WoW crowd (A consensus that seems to be growing concerning Vanguard). The reviewer implies that this is a consequence of Vanguard being "taken over" by SOE.

SOE already has a care bear MMO, I really don't understand why they would make Vanguard into the same thing. Guess thats another game I won't be buying.

/me waits for an MMO that isnt designed for people who want everything yesterday.

S

MX13 · November 2006

All they've done is work on the lower level player experience, which was needed IMO. The game is not Care-Bear, and this is coming from a Pre-CU SWG lover...

However, I do have some concerns about some changes, such as the loot changes mentioned in the article...

milamber12 · November 2006

I for one am hoping the dont carebear this out plz im in AL at the moment and that is ment to be a hardcore PvP game now we have GM's tellng us we cant kill other players (because of certian situations. and wineing players that go to GM's when they get owned ) plz keep vanguard for us few hardcore players.

EliasThorne · November 2006

I didn't think Vanguard was a hardcore PvP at heart.

Sure there will be dedicated PvP servers, but if thats what you're looking for why not try out a true PvP game such and archlord rather than trying to mess up this one?

scaramoosh · November 2006

They interface look slike they copied it from WOW and the quest structure and pretty much most of the gameplay as a noob was just WOW in unreal2 engine.

Not sure what they'll add along the way but atm it seems pointless to switch from wow to vanguard.

busdriver · November 2006

Vanguard is not carebear??

Amathe · November 2006

The article doesn't say they are changing the game to make it more like WoW. It says they are changing the marketing to attract WoW players. That, of course, is something I have been screaming about for months lol. Why do all the heavy lifting of a partial redesign when you can just do misleading ads instead?

Serenikill · November 2006

Originally posted by Sharkypal
http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=431 Towards the bottom of this article there are some comments that imply that the focus of this game has switched from the hardcore MMO market to the WoW crowd (A consensus that seems to be growing concerning Vanguard). The reviewer implies that this is a consequence of Vanguard being "taken over" by SOE. SOE already has a care bear MMO, I really don't understand why they would make Vanguard into the same thing. Guess thats another game I won't be buying. /me waits for an MMO that isnt designed for people who want everything yesterday. S

Where does the reviewer imply that this is as a result of the takeover from SOE (there was no takeover by SOE in fact, they just are helping with publishing and marketting, Sigil holds ALL of the rights to the game)? I think you inferred that...

Anyways, here is my take on it.

Vanguard has always been, and will always be targetted at the "Core" gamer, a term coined by the Vanguard team. The core gamer plays quite a bit and likes getting into the game and exploring, but doesn't have the time to be a "hardcore" gamer... kind of like a "hardcore" gamer with less time. The "core" gamer wants to experience the whole game in there own time, and they want to experience it with friends and guild mates.

Vanguard got the reputation of appealing only to the hardcore populaton. Partially because they are the devs of the original eq and partially because the term "Core" reminds people of "hardcore" so if you don't know the difference you just think hardcore (as in if you are just hearing about the game from a brief article)

In order to aleviate concern in the target playerbase they have been talking about ways that casual gamers can enjoy the game, where everybody can enjoy the game. They have shyed away from the term "Core Gamer" except in their original FAQ, which describes the term quite well.

In talking more about ways that casual gamers can enjoy the game, the hardcore gamers fear that the game is being turned into a WoW clone. It is an impossible predicament for the Devs and the Marketting teams...

All in all, I wouldn't worry about it to much. The games target audience hasen't changed.

Jorev · November 2006

Originally posted by Amathe
The article doesn't say they are changing the game to make it more like WoW. It says they are changing the marketing to attract WoW players. That, of course, is something I have been screaming about for months lol. Why do all the heavy lifting of a partial redesign when you can just do misleading ads instead?

You Sir are correct. It is obvious to anyone who has been paying attention that the misleading advertising of a more solo and small group friendly Vanguard has been taking place since SOE's involvement. That may produce more revenue short term, but after the initial box sales and first few months subscription, when these deceived players realize Vanguard is about raiding and start quitting and complaining about being lied to, what then? Will SOE force Sigil to dummy down the game to make it more WoW like? Can you say SWG2? Isn't it better business sense long term to market the game truthfully as a raiding game and focus on satisfying your original targeted playerbase, the raiders?

damkar · November 2006

I hope your wrong about the game being geared primarily toward raiding players. EQ success didn't come from its raiding focus. It came from its depth and width of its content and that someone like me who don't like raiding can still have a blast and find things to do.

Jorev · November 2006

Originally posted by damkar
I hope your wrong about the game being geared primarily toward raiding players. EQ success didn't come from its raiding focus. It came from its depth and width of its content and that someone like me who don't like raiding can still have a blast and find things to do.

I agree, as long as we are talking about early EQ1 prior to Planes of Power. EQ1 had no raiding when it first launched. The first 3 raiding planes were added afterwards. SolB and lower Guk were the toughest areas at launch and those were still small group content oriented even with the limited inferior gear available at the time.

Even though more and more raiding was added to EQ1 over time and now has become the main focus, there was equal content for all playerstyles in early EQ1. It sucked that raiding gear was no trade and thus players who didn't raid had no alternative to trade for raid gear and were subjected to being second class citizens, but being able to pursue crafting as a self sufficient soloer was a satisfying alternative for me. Vanguard won't allow that, thus reinforcing more dependency.

Elikal · November 2006

People really stop thinking in labels, like WOW-ish or care-bearish. In gaming realiy those labels tell little to nothing. You may cite certain features (maps, death, whatever) but even then, it all depends on how it is interwoven with the rest, and of course how the people on any given server is. If the community evolves friendly and social corpse runs might be a laugh, but if people are unsocial (servers do change over time into any fashion), even mild difficulties can become hard.

Really, this black/white schematic thinking I read from Vangauard fanbois AND hatebois irritates me. Every damn time a new features is known or known to be changed both side snap at the devs (or most time at SOE's) heel. I understand some features are of concern to some, but you really have to stop reading into each tiny word and making everyone nervous.

Serenikill · November 2006

Originally posted by damkar
I hope your wrong about the game being geared primarily toward raiding players. EQ success didn't come from its raiding focus. It came from its depth and width of its content and that someone like me who don't like raiding can still have a blast and find things to do.

Rest assured the game is going to be mainly grouping, which has been said many times. Most recently in the IGN article from November 2nd

http://pc.ign.com/articles/743/743719p1.html

20% solo, 60% groupoing, 20% raiding

Samuraisword · November 2006

If raiding is where the best gear is earned, and it will be, then the game is raiding centric regardless of percentages of small group content. All roads lead to Rome and raiding because that will be the peak of adventuring in Vanguard.

EliasThorne · November 2006

Do you think there will be a single thread where "20% solo, 60% groupoing, 20% raiding" isnt quoted and doesn't break down into a raiding debate?

Serenikill · November 2006

Originally posted by Samuraisword
If raiding is where the best gear is earned, and it will be, then the game is raiding centric regardless of percentages of small group content. All roads lead to Rome and raiding because that will be the peak of adventuring in Vanguard.

Not necesssarily... the very best items will come from intersphere, inter-class cooperation.

Also

"Some powerful items will only be obtained by raiding, and by raiding I mean a contiguous amount of time spent involving significant risk and reward.

But please don't stop reading there. I think there are many other ways to create challenge and therefore reward than just a long contiguous raid. You can have a very long quest, but one that you can complete in short segments. In that case, you're able to spread the 20 hours out over days as opposed to having to commit to it in one session. You can involve extreme skill in an area, or extreme luck (just a super rare drop). You can do thinks like reward the player with an item, but then require that item in order to complete another series of quests, etc. So you can stop at anytime with an item that is X good, or keep going, eventually giving up that item, but hopefully earning an item that is Y (even better) good."

It is from this section of the Silky Venom FAQ... I would read the whole thing.

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586&expand=591#faq591

Agricola1 · November 2006

Originally posted by EliasThorne
Do you think there will be a single thread where "20% solo, 60% groupoing, 20% raiding" isnt quoted and doesn't break down into a raiding debate?

Yes that would be the "I saw Elvis in Vanguard" thread. Oh no you're right, because after it had been stated he was seen raiding with Jesus there would be a massive row. People would be arguing that it is a lie as there is a 60% chance they were grouping so there must've been more witnesses. Or that the chances were just as high he was solo, so he couldn't have been with another player. Although if he was raiding solo then there's a 40% chance it's true, but since when did Elvis or Jesus do anything solo?

There's the "I saw Brad at Burger King" thread, but that would degenerate into "Was he raiding whoppers, grouping with friends or soloing a cheese burger and fries?".

Or the "I saw smedley at an S&M club"......................................................

EliasThorne · November 2006

Okay that was quite quite mad

Anyway, surely it would be Elvis raiding Burger King, not Brad

metalcore · November 2006

Originally posted by Samuraisword
If raiding is where the best gear is earned, and it will be, then the game is raiding centric regardless of percentages of small group content. All roads lead to Rome and raiding because that will be the peak of adventuring in Vanguard.

As they have said many times, not all the best gear comes from raiding, some from group, some from soloing, some from crafting, some from diplomacy etc etc.

Raiding will not be the be all end all for high end gear.

Agricola1 · November 2006

Originally posted by EliasThorne
Okay that was quite quite mad

Anyway, surely it would be Elvis raiding Burger King, not Brad

OK you got me there, but perhaps Elvis would be more inclined to solo 20 whoopers than raiding for that big burger boss? The Rolling Stones grouping and Milli Vanilli raiding?

krenalor · November 2006

You had me worried, this game isn't getting WoW players. That means it will flop! That's good, because I hate the Vanguard fanbois. When this game folds when a whole 15,000 play I will get a great laugh!

Samhael · November 2006

Originally posted by Agricola1
Originally posted by EliasThorne
Okay that was quite quite mad

Anyway, surely it would be Elvis raiding Burger King, not Brad

OK you got me there, but perhaps Elvis would be more inclined to solo 20 whoopers than raiding for that big burger boss? The Rolling Stones grouping and Milli Vanilli raiding?

Does Dairy Queen sell fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches?

fiontar · November 2006

I read the whole article and it actually puts my mind at ease. Too hardcore and niche and you get something like DDO. Too "commercial" and you get WoW. I'm a long time veteran player of many MMORPGs and to be honest, I'd rather have a game be closer to WoW than too niche/hard-core.

I've always felt there are ways to cater to many diverse player types in an MMORPG. While far from perfect, I think that's one reason WoW is so popular. Most players probably never get to level 60 and still enjoy the game for many months, either casually advancing a single character, or playing through many alts. PvPers may not have PvP on par with Guild Wars or other stand outs, but it's there and can be fun. A big flaw is that once you hit 60, the "hardcore", raid guilder type players, who enjoy, well, raiding with their guildmates, also become dominant in PvP due to item inflation. Blah, blah, blah, sorry, the point is that WoW does cater to a fairly broad range of players, which is a big reason it's so successful.

It seems Vanguard is attempting broad appeal, with out compromising so much as to totally turn of the EQ style vets. In a large game world, with many classes, races and a broad level range, it should be entirely possible to cater to diverse playstyles and experience levels successfully. Hopefully Vanguard will get the mix right.

To turn from thoughtful to shallow, I think now my personal biggest concern is that the character models in Vanguard are looking a little to much EQ2. I've tried three times to enjoy EQ2. I like quests and EQ2 has buckets of them, but the plastic doll look just completely turned me off to the game. I have a high end system with a high end video card and still could not find settings I found aesthetically bearable. I just hope they can find away to negate the plastic action figure look.

Eagler777 · November 2006

I have a question maybe someone could help me with. I keep hearing, on many different threads, that Vanguard graphics or w/e will be to high and such. Some people I've even seen said they may not be able to run it. I'm not very knowledgable about this kinda thing, especially because any game I have ever play before has been on game consoles, not PC's. But I'm really looking forward to this game and I dont wanna buy it and not be able to run it.... so here is what I have

the dual core processing running at 2.4 Ghz

2048 MB DDR2 RAM

512 nVIDIA Geforce video card

so am I going to be ok to run this or do you need more info to know? let me know

anarchyart · November 2006

Originally posted by Sharkypal

http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=431
Towards the bottom of this article there are some comments that imply that the focus of this game has switched from the hardcore MMO market to the WoW crowd (A consensus that seems to be growing concerning Vanguard). The reviewer implies that this is a consequence of Vanguard being "taken over" by SOE.
SOE already has a care bear MMO, I really don't understand why they would make Vanguard into the same thing. Guess thats another game I won't be buying.
/me waits for an MMO that isnt designed for people who want everything yesterday.
S

All I can say is don't worry. EQ and WoW fans alike will find PLENTY to love about Vanguard. Power gamers, soloers, groupers, questers, grinders...everyone will have lots of content made just for them.

anarchyart · November 2006

Originally posted by Eagler777

I have a question maybe someone could help me with. I keep hearing, on many different threads, that Vanguard graphics or w/e will be to high and such. Some people I've even seen said they may not be able to run it. I'm not very knowledgable about this kinda thing, especially because any game I have ever play before has been on game consoles, not PC's. But I'm really looking forward to this game and I dont wanna buy it and not be able to run it.... so here is what I have
the dual core processing running at 2.4 Ghz
2048 MB DDR2 RAM
512 nVIDIA Geforce video card
so am I going to be ok to run this or do you need more info to know? let me know

Your system will already be able to kick Vanguards butt, and they haven't even optimized it fully yet.

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