Originally posted by SLNTASN City of Heroes, City of Villains, EQ1, EQ2, and Lineage 2. There are probably more, I just don't know what kind of PvP they have.
CoX: Arena. Not PVP. No where can you find CoX claiming to have PVP alone. It is always followed by the word "arena" meaning minigame.
L2: "The only law in this chaotic landscape is the rule of Karma. Two players that are fighting with one another will both be marked as aggressive, at which point only regular death penalties will apply."
That effects the world. 1 person isn't much of the world, multiply that person by 1000 and it effects the world. That player can no longer participate in normal player events. Such as buying items. World effect.
Can't say anything about EQ1 or EQ2 as I have never played. EQ2 PVP was modelled after WoW.
Originally posted by Infliction At all the above posters complaining about leveling being a "grind"... If you dislike playing the game, and consider leveling your character "work", you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs. Period. I've enjoyed (to an extent) leveling characters in every MMORPG that held my interest enough to be called enjoyable. WoW was one of those games. But of course my above gripe with the game made me lose interest at endgame, so I quit playing the game, and moved on.
This seems to be all WOW fanboys favorite line. Well, it has no merit. Look back at UO, you had a choice of multiple professions - even SWG had Entertainer, Medic, Architect, Armorsmith, Chef, Creature Handler, Dancer, Droid Engineer, Tailor and the list goes one! None of which required you to go out and PVE grind.
WOW is the most restricted MMORPG i know - the whole game is linear. Everyone is doing the same quests, everyones doing the same raids. The quests lack depth and substance, crafting is severely lacking and PVP is a joke.
If you have never played any other MMORPG then fine, you will likely enjoy WOW (at least at first) but don't forget there are a lot of other games our there where players actually have some form of freedom and choice.
Where is it written down in Ye Moste Holy Book Of MMORPG Designe that every game has to conform these (apparently already used) constructs and restrictions? Where is that damn tome anyway?
I'm kind of wondering where this whole concept of combat having to permanently effect the world came from anyway. How many other genres of games does that actually happen in... How many times have the same maps been replayed in an RTS, or a FPS? That kind of implies to me that there is a body of people that don't mind combat not having a permanent effect.
If there are so many MMOs that have Snakey's version of what PVP is supposed to be about, it seems quite logical to make an MMO without long term effects anyway. Hm, PVE combat. Sounds like SRPG, with broad co-op mode. People like SRPGs, people like co-op. Broad co-op, plus SRPG, equals PVE MMORPG in my mind. Naturally, however, you are officially barred from such a game because it doesn't conform to specifications. If you were to play and like such a game, you are inherently inferior in some fashion. Even though its essentially composed of ideas from other genres, which don't seem to have a problem with them.
Doesn't matter, can't let your newfangled carebear ideas get in the way of when the One True MMROPG that will lead us all into a dynamic utopia and persistent paradise. Whenever it actually makes its appearance. In the mean time, enjoy the endless parade of false prophets and charlatans whoever have been promising the destruction WoW and its clone army since before whenever I joined.
The one idea I think is good in this thread is killing the WoW threads. Every time I see one, I get flashbacks through every other pointless thread I've seen that tried to argue subjective opinion as the absolute truth. However I think that also extends to what seems like the nearly-as-infinite constellations of threads explicitly designed to destroy WoW, or better yet, compare it to a game that wasn't released at the time and then promptly fell on it's face. However, I think that those two factors would cut the general board down to a few pages of discussions about Korea (half the posts being Gameloading) and what book or movie we'd like to see as an MMO interspersed with the requests for a f2p 3D MMO that doesn't require a download, the number of which is possibly greater than descendants of Abraham.
Originally posted by SLNTASN City of Heroes, City of Villains, EQ1, EQ2, and Lineage 2. There are probably more, I just don't know what kind of PvP they have.
CoX: Arena. Not PVP. No where can you find CoX claiming to have PVP alone. It is always followed by the word "arena" meaning minigame.
L2: "The only law in this chaotic landscape is the rule of Karma. Two players that are fighting with one another will both be marked as aggressive, at which point only regular death penalties will apply."
That effects the world. 1 person isn't much of the world, multiply that person by 1000 and it effects the world. That player can no longer participate in normal player events. Such as buying items. World effect.
Can't say anything about EQ1 or EQ2 as I have never played. EQ2 PVP was modelled after WoW.
CoX has zones designated for PvP.
In world of warcraft, if you take 1000, it will affect the world. More spam in Channels, people running all over the place, and if you are flagged, you will most likely be killed several times, which will effect your ability to "trade" if you can't stay alive long enought to do the trading.
Karma goes away after a while also, so when you stop the "raid" or whatever, everything goes back to normal. Which contradicts one of your above statements if you do claim L2 has World affecting PvP:
"it doesn't effect the world one bit. Because when you leave, it's over."
Originally posted by SLNTASN In world of warcraft, if you take 1000, it will affect the world. More spam in Channels, people running all over the place, and if you are flagged, you will most likely be killed several times, which will effect your ability to "trade" if you can't stay alive long enought to do the trading. Karma goes away after a while also, so when you stop the "raid" or whatever, everything goes back to normal. Which contradicts one of your above statements if you do claim L2 has World affecting PvP: "it doesn't effect the world one bit. Because when you leave, it's over."
I just want to say Thank you.
It's ppl like you that make me rich in games and the reason I left WoW at lvl 35 with 5000g. People with no concept of how an economy works, makes the rest of us rich.
Originally posted by Keebs1984 The pvp system in wow is EXACTLY what pvp is supposed to be PLAYER VS PLAYER. I am not fighting computers and I am fighting other players, and its fun. I never NEVER feel like the opposing side has a 100% guarenteed victory over me. Its balanced, fun, and the best thing is that there are no repercusions if I die. I can pvp for however long I want and leave when I get bored. Sounds great to me. There is nothing in the term PVP that says there has to be repercussions to the player that dies, or that anything has to be gained. EDIT: This was in response to SnaKey not the person above me.
Heh. This is what PvP is supposed to be eh? Says who?
Your want some REAL PvP? Try some PvP on the Asheron's Call Darktide server and THAT is some real PvP. A real challenge. Skill required with dodging and timing and casting the right attack or spells at the right time. Insanely fast paced. With REAL consequences when you die. You leave a corpse that can be looted by the victor. Some of your most valuable items in the game (according to in game value), not real value are almost always lost to the victor. This makes the PvP actually mean something. If there is no risk, then there also is no real reward. Risk = Reward. Nothing Lost, Nothing Gained. Get it? ...Ofcourse you don't. Heh.
Even the PvP on the PvP server of Dark Age of Camelot if ten times better then what WoW offers.
People love and play WoW typically because it's widely known and accepted. (See dictionary defination for "fad") and they have not played a better or more fun style of gameplay. They just don't know better. They think that the more people that play the game, the better the game is.
WoW is a great super simple no risk, all reward game. This is why so many people complain of getting so damn bored of it so quickly. Compare that to the people who have played games like Ultima Online, Everquest (1) and Asherons Call (1) for years and years. There is a huge difference. And I don't mean the graphics either. Graphics ain't crap when it comes to gameplay mechanics and actual fun. I could play a tic-tac-toe game with the best graphics in the world, but the game still pales when compared to a very basic graphical version of Backgammon or Chess.
But you'r right. 7.5 million people can't possibly be wrong. Just ask them. But also ask them if they ever really played Asherons Call or Everquest back in the good mmo days. If they have and are honest about it, chances are they will also fill you in on how much they truly miss while playing WoW and all the great mechanics of those games that made them so much fun.
Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by SLNTASN In world of warcraft, if you take 1000, it will affect the world. More spam in Channels, people running all over the place, and if you are flagged, you will most likely be killed several times, which will effect your ability to "trade" if you can't stay alive long enought to do the trading. Karma goes away after a while also, so when you stop the "raid" or whatever, everything goes back to normal. Which contradicts one of your above statements if you do claim L2 has World affecting PvP: "it doesn't effect the world one bit. Because when you leave, it's over."
I just want to say Thank you.
It's ppl like you that make me rich in games and the reason I left WoW at lvl 35 with 5000g. People with no concept of how an economy works, makes the rest of us rich.
Yes, insult me by relating PvP mechanics to the economy.
I'm not a hard core gamer by any means (I haven't even played a MMO sense leaving WoW this past summer).
With that said my problem with WoW was simple it was way too easy I'm the kind of gamer that prefers to never reach the Lv cap and with WoW I was there in just a few months. I remember hitting Lv 40 in FFXI and being proud of that, but for me WoW offered nothing to be proud of.
As for raiding it was fun until you realize that your just going to see the same thing over and over again, so that you might get the same gear every one else has.
MMO's aren't for the casual gamer. Apart from WoW there isn't any others out there.... I have to agree though with WoW you do feel like you get something, though that something is just kill X amount of Y and you'll get Z as the reward. I want something that has meaning. I don't want to kill mindless shit for no reason. I know its a game and all but I want in-game consequences. WoW has none of that.
I'm going to reject both Keeb's and Zaxtor's predilections and define my own PVP cult. As far as I can tell, it'll be every bit as valid as either of theirs no matter how outlandish I'll be able to state it as if it was absolute fact based on subjective evidence or dubious statistics.
Originally posted by SLNTASN Originally posted by SnaKey Originally posted by SLNTASN In world of warcraft, if you take 1000, it will affect the world. More spam in Channels, people running all over the place, and if you are flagged, you will most likely be killed several times, which will effect your ability to "trade" if you can't stay alive long enought to do the trading. Karma goes away after a while also, so when you stop the "raid" or whatever, everything goes back to normal. Which contradicts one of your above statements if you do claim L2 has World affecting PvP: "it doesn't effect the world one bit. Because when you leave, it's over."
I just want to say Thank you.
It's ppl like you that make me rich in games and the reason I left WoW at lvl 35 with 5000g. People with no concept of how an economy works, makes the rest of us rich.
Yes, insult me by relating PvP mechanics to the economy.
Originally posted by osc8r Originally posted by Infliction At all the above posters complaining about leveling being a "grind"... If you dislike playing the game, and consider leveling your character "work", you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs. Period. I've enjoyed (to an extent) leveling characters in every MMORPG that held my interest enough to be called enjoyable. WoW was one of those games. But of course my above gripe with the game made me lose interest at endgame, so I quit playing the game, and moved on.
This seems to be all WOW fanboys favorite line. Well, it has no merit. Look back at UO, you had a choice of multiple professions - even SWG had Entertainer, Medic, Architect, Armorsmith, Chef, Creature Handler, Dancer, Droid Engineer, Tailor and the list goes one! None of which required you to go out and PVE grind.
WOW is the most restricted MMORPG i know - the whole game is linear. Everyone is doing the same quests, everyones doing the same raids. The quests lack depth and substance, crafting is severely lacking and PVP is a joke.
If you have never played any other MMORPG then fine, you will likely enjoy WOW (at least at first) but don't forget there are a lot of other games our there where players actually have some form of freedom and choice.
I haven't played WoW in over a year. I can hardly be called a fanboy. I'm merely pointing out that most of you bashing the game seem to be doing it because its the "cool" thing to do on these forums. Also I might point out that I've played MMOs since the beginning, starting with The Realm way back in '96. I didn't ever get a chance to play UO or the original EQ in their primes however, but I've played many MMORPGs in that 10 year span. Other than The Realm, which held me for a strong 3 years or so, none of the other MMOs I've played held me as long as WoW did. Maybe it is linear, but its also a solid game, and I enjoyed the full game.
Maybe some of you just need a change of mindset. The idea that an MMORPG starts at endgame is a boneheaded thought. The leveling is meant to be fun, and if that isn't fun in the game you're playing, the game itself isn't fun. In every other MMO I've played besides The Realm and WoW, the leveling itself did seem like a grind. Just my 2 cents, flame away if you must.
Originally posted by SnaKey You're usage of the enter key gives me a headache. Please learn to break your long posts up into paragraphs the next time you post. It really makes it easier to read. Your topic title is kinda ironic, beacuse those run-on-posts always give me a headache when I try to read them. But yes, WoW is a very poorly made game. The content is very much lacking and the requirements of play time are totally insane. You're always trying to get better equipment and better stuff, and therefore are required to raid 5-8hrs a day to actually achieve anything. It's good that you felt like you achieved something when you logged off, but in reality you didn't. Calling WoW's competition system PVP is a joke really. WoW doesn't include PVP within it's game system. Yeah, sure you can kill other players of the oposite faction as long as they are in contested territory or in battlefeilds but what happens when you kill them? Nothing. They respawn where they came from or have to run back to their corpse. Nothing is lost, nothing is gained, besides a minor honor point that means nothing unless you spend hundreds upon hundred of hours grinding for honor. Not only that, but crafting is a joke and useless in WoW. Yeah, sure you can make some really cool stuff... but the time it took you to get to the point where you could make that item, you could have been raiding and gotten a full set of lvl60 items that are better anything you could ever make crafting. World of Warcraft is a poorly made game that has gotten a huge fanbase due to the name that created it and brought many people who weren't even gamers to the Genre. Which is a good thing, but now those new gamers are stuck on the WoW mindset of what a MMORPG is supposed to be. Really, truthfully.. WoW isn't a MMORPG to me. It fits all the characteristics of a MMORPG, except the fact that pretty much every other MMORPG is created to be a virtual world, where WoW is created to be a game.
Always add "this is my opinion" when you post SnaKey, because WoW is actually an excellent game, and all facts (reviews, awards, playerbase) all point against your opinion, so lets leave it at the fact the game is not for you.
Also, saying the game became big because of the WoW name is quite rediculous. if that was the case, then Final Fantasy XI should have equal numbers to WoW, as well as Star Wars Galaxies and the Matrix Online. WoW sold well because WoW is an excellent game, but it still isn't for everyone. yet we see games like Lineage 1 and Lineage 2, that started with absolutely ZERO name recognition, breaking the 1 million subscriber base.
its also funny how you say that WoW isn't a virtual world, if they aren't, then neither are Everquest, Everquest 2, Dark age of Camelot and Final Fantasy XI just to name a few, because there is close to no diffrence between those titles.
Keebs, your points are valid. I criticize the endgame which is honestly lacking progression options. Their raid-or-quit methods make the game painfully repetitive and boring for those persuing that path. Even you don't raid and I don't blame you. In spite of the games outrageous endgame flaws, (and no game is without flaws) it is currently the best mmorpg on the market. But no game is perfect and undeserving of criticism and every game can be improved in some way. I agree that the outright bashing of the whole game is not fair but offering thoughts that could improve the formula is a good thing.
Originally posted by Xpheyel I'm going to reject both Keeb's and Zaxtor's predilections and define my own PVP cult. As far as I can tell, it'll be every bit as valid as either of theirs no matter how outlandish I'll be able to state it as if it was absolute fact based on subjective evidence or dubious statistics.
Bravo.
Just because a game doesn't fit what your preconceived notions of what a feature should be, is no reason to call it a bad game. UO and DAoC were good games and did things a certain way, it doesn't mean WoW or every other game should do it the same way.
PvP in DAoC was fun for me, as it had a tension and an epic feel to taking on raiding armies. PvP in WoW was fun for me also, as it had a fast pace and fun combat mechanics. Someone might agree or disagree with those assessments, but you'd have to give a better argument than DAoC didn't have CTF or WoW didn't have keep raids. Not having certain things made both games fun for me. If a huge war happened in DAoC and everyone kept coming back within 1 min, that wouldn't be fun for me. If a capture the flag game in WoW had everyone take 5-10 mins to get back into the fight, that wouldn't be fun for me.
Games are different for better or worse. If you think WoW has more bad than good on general principle because it doesn't have, or does things in a certain way, you're kidding yourself.
It's obvious to me that most people on these forums are here looking for something new or upcoming, so they must therefore have a problem with every game out. Those problems are shared, pooled, and maginified in this group setting. I usually ignore such meaningless negativity, but I just wanted to say that I enjoyed that post by Xpheyel and then decided added my opinions.
Originally posted by Runny123 I still say WoW sucks. If it didnt exist. SWG would still be here.
And that comment hints that wow is better than SWG.
Anyway wow is not such a bad game if you are new to the mmorpg scene. But its hardly the highest form of online gaming. It doesant even ahve proper pvp.
In my opinion WoW is not the game for me while I found the leveling entertaining and the instance dungeons creative WoW doesn't have the main aspect I look for in games, the ability to live a new life.
SWG for isntance, I didn't have to run mission after mission or grind a skill if I didn't want to. I could just head to the local cantina buy myself a drink and chat it up with the players around me, or I could visit different planets and see different famous locations.
In WoW however I felt forced to level so that I could be useful to my guild in raids. Then I had to raid over and over and get my armor so I could be useful to my guild in better raids etc...
When I play a MMO what I'm looking for is the ability to just enjoy the virtual sites and feel like my character is really living and breathing, while still being able to reach endgame and WoW just doesn't do that for me.
Everyone complains about WoW, but the reality is that it is an extremely popular game for the following reasons:
* Fast pace of advancement makes casual play feasible for levelling while still giving a sense of progress to the average casual gamer
* Low death penalty makes the game more attractive to the casual gamer who doesn't have as much time to play and therefore doesn't want what time they do have to play blown away because of a bad pull
* Accessible interface, controls, abundance of quests that disguise grinding
* PvP for fun, not PKing for loot (which is never attractive to casual gamers)
* Famililar and well-loved setting from WC series of RTS games
* Huge community makes the game very alive, vibrant, active ... which people generally prefer in an online setting (it's a kind of positive reinforcement, instead of logging into another game's newbie zone, being all alone and thinking "Hmmm .. what exactly am I doing in this game ....")
Blizzard took a look at the MMO genre and said "Hmmm ... this is a genre that heretofore has largely been a niche genre, catering to more hardcore gamers who have a lot of time to sink into games, and therefore has had a hard time attracting the more casual gamers in large numbers." Blizzard didn't want a niche MMO ... they don't make niche games, they like to make very, very popular games, it is their business model. So, they took the basic idea of the MMO and streamlined it, made it casual friendly (until level cap) , accessible to people who previously had avoided MMOs like the plague for being notorious timesinks, and emphasized quality control ... and produced a product that millions of people have fun playing.
The problem with WoW, it's weakness, is that its current endgame does not match the design idea for the rest of the game, because it becomes a very traditional MMO timesink at level cap. This problem was exacerbated by the fact that it has taken Blizzard more than 2 years to release an expansion to change the endgame somewhat. It's a glaringly odd design decision when compared with the rest of the game design philosophy, and I tend to think that a lot of heads at Blizzard now think it may have been the wrong decision. It's the main weakness of the game as it stands now. Blizzard designed a hardcore endgame in a game that is otherwise very non-hardcore, and that's a serious mismatch. Lots of level 60 players are annoyed with that decision. Other players feel pressured to level and then raid, because that's what the most hardcore and advanced players are doing, and (rightly in my view) find that less than fun. It's a serious issue with the game, and the main flaw of WoW.
The reason why WoW gets whacked around in these forums so often is that these forums tend to attract and maintain the more "hardcore" MMO gamer, not the casual gamer that was Blizzard's main targetted customer in making WoW. Blizzard didn't want to make another game for the MMO set, they wanted to take the MMO and make it accessible to the non-MMO set, and they did that brilliantly. So it's no surprise that the MMO set doesn't like the product, thinks that it has ruined the industry, thinks it's dumbed down garbage, etc. ... because Blizzard wasn't making a game that catered to that segment of the market, primarily. They decided to go after the much larger casual gaming market rather than the much smaller MMO elite market, and they made a ton of money doing that, and have been a great success. Blizzard doesn't care if the elite MMO crowd hates WoW, it isn't hurting their bottom line one bit.
Originally posted by Awakened I don't hate WoW, I hate people spamming the general forums with it when we have a whole section dedicated to WoW. I don't play it, so I think it's a fair concept that I not have to get slammed with it when I'm not in the WoW section. Seems logical to me. Thanks for adding to the spam btw.
That point would only be valid if:
All Eve posts were confined to the Eve forums
All Guild Wars posts were confined to the Guild Wars forums
All Ryzom posts were confined to the Ryzom forums etc.
Given the number of people playing WoW, the fact that it doesn't get mentioned vastly more than the above games seems that people are behaving reasonably sensibly. Certainly there's no one spamming mentions of it in a way that crowds out other games - there is a fair mixture of discussion here. In the past few days there have been active topics about Ryzom, EQ2, Lineage 2, DDO etc.
This is the general discussion forum - where people discuss lots of games. To completely ignore a hugely popular and influential game in the general discussion forum would be kind of odd.
Originally posted by Anofalye Your point about raiding not been bad on you, it is simple, it is because you ABANDON the idea to reach the top with your toon. If so, then you will be happy in ANY setting and good for you. However, many players HAVE to TRY for the BEST, and this mean they HAVE to raid...which is quite bad, since all they ask, it was to be the best groupers, and they HAVE to raid in order to reach that goal. This is incredibly bad and aggravating in the long run, thinking otherwise is a short term planning, devs seeing a very few subscribtions maintained in the NOW, without any consideration for the game or the franchise in the future. Raiding-enforcement is an extremely short-sighted decision.
isn't that why you play an online game? to be the best you can be? not to be an average, mediocre whatever?
isn't that why you PAY to play a game online? so you can play and become the best whatever?
not saying pvp, just saying that you're paying for a game so that you can just have so/so gear and be a so/so hero/captain/whatever?
i want as much bang for my buck as possible from cable/satellite, my cell phone, my isp, and especially my games.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Novaseeker Everyone complains about WoW, but the reality is that it is an extremely popular game for the following reasons:
* Fast pace of advancement makes casual play feasible for levelling while still giving a sense of progress to the average casual gamer
* Low death penalty makes the game more attractive to the casual gamer who doesn't have as much time to play and therefore doesn't want what time they do have to play blown away because of a bad pull
* Accessible interface, controls, abundance of quests that disguise grinding
* PvP for fun, not PKing for loot (which is never attractive to casual gamers)
* Famililar and well-loved setting from WC series of RTS games
* Huge community makes the game very alive, vibrant, active ... which people generally prefer in an online setting (it's a kind of positive reinforcement, instead of logging into another game's newbie zone, being all alone and thinking "Hmmm .. what exactly am I doing in this game ....")
Blizzard took a look at the MMO genre and said "Hmmm ... this is a genre that heretofore has largely been a niche genre, catering to more hardcore gamers who have a lot of time to sink into games, and therefore has had a hard time attracting the more casual gamers in large numbers." Blizzard didn't want a niche MMO ... they don't make niche games, they like to make very, very popular games, it is their business model. So, they took the basic idea of the MMO and streamlined it, made it casual friendly (until level cap) , accessible to people who previously had avoided MMOs like the plague for being notorious timesinks, and emphasized quality control ... and produced a product that millions of people have fun playing.
The problem with WoW, it's weakness, is that its current endgame does not match the design idea for the rest of the game, because it becomes a very traditional MMO timesink at level cap. This problem was exacerbated by the fact that it has taken Blizzard more than 2 years to release an expansion to change the endgame somewhat. It's a glaringly odd design decision when compared with the rest of the game design philosophy, and I tend to think that a lot of heads at Blizzard now think it may have been the wrong decision. It's the main weakness of the game as it stands now. Blizzard designed a hardcore endgame in a game that is otherwise very non-hardcore, and that's a serious mismatch. Lots of level 60 players are annoyed with that decision. Other players feel pressured to level and then raid, because that's what the most hardcore and advanced players are doing, and (rightly in my view) find that less than fun. It's a serious issue with the game, and the main flaw of WoW.
The reason why WoW gets whacked around in these forums so often is that these forums tend to attract and maintain the more "hardcore" MMO gamer, not the casual gamer that was Blizzard's main targetted customer in making WoW. Blizzard didn't want to make another game for the MMO set, they wanted to take the MMO and make it accessible to the non-MMO set, and they did that brilliantly. So it's no surprise that the MMO set doesn't like the product, thinks that it has ruined the industry, thinks it's dumbed down garbage, etc. ... because Blizzard wasn't making a game that catered to that segment of the market, primarily. They decided to go after the much larger casual gaming market rather than the much smaller MMO elite market, and they made a ton of money doing that, and have been a great success. Blizzard doesn't care if the elite MMO crowd hates WoW, it isn't hurting their bottom line one bit.
i agree with most of what you said.
i do think that going from casual-friendly all the way up to 60, to hardcore-friendly post-60 was a huge mistake on their part. yes, this was driven by kaplan. there's no way to say that mr "learn to raid" is not the reason that the game takes a radical turn from casual-friendly once you hit 60.
i know a few people that play it just out of boredom. it's not very twitch intensive, and they just keep leveling 60s. every new patch that comes out, the reaction is something like "oh joy, more NON-casual fun that'll take tons of hours to try to get goodies from. yaaaay, i'll just keep doing the same stuff i've been doing since last patch".
boredom, or lack of a suitable alternative is not my idea of having fun. i still think they pushed back BC release because they realized it wouldn't be so easy to undo all the raid-only garbage that kaplan had planned for it all this time.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by zaxtor99 Originally posted by Keebs1984 The pvp system in wow is EXACTLY what pvp is supposed to be PLAYER VS PLAYER. I am not fighting computers and I am fighting other players, and its fun. I never NEVER feel like the opposing side has a 100% guarenteed victory over me. Its balanced, fun, and the best thing is that there are no repercusions if I die. I can pvp for however long I want and leave when I get bored. Sounds great to me. There is nothing in the term PVP that says there has to be repercussions to the player that dies, or that anything has to be gained. EDIT: This was in response to SnaKey not the person above me.
Heh. This is what PvP is supposed to be eh? Says who?
Says the generally accepted definetion of the acronym PVP, Player vs Player. As long as you are fighting against another player in the game then it is pvp. For the love of god, CS is a pvp game, and there are no repercussions in that.
Your want some REAL PvP? Try some PvP on the Asheron's Call Darktide server and THAT is some real PvP. A real challenge. Skill required with dodging and timing and casting the right attack or spells at the right time. Insanely fast paced. With REAL consequences when you die. You leave a corpse that can be looted by the victor. Some of your most valuable items in the game (according to in game value), not real value are almost always lost to the victor. This makes the PvP actually mean something. If there is no risk, then there also is no real reward. Risk = Reward. Nothing Lost, Nothing Gained. Get it? ...Ofcourse you don't. Heh.
I am not denying that this ^ is not PvP. But PvP does NOT have to meet your own specific requirements in order to be called so. You have taken your own experiences of pvp, judged which one was best, and have hence-forth labelled all forms of pvp unlike this as not being "real" pvp? You seem to have tacked on to the Player vs player acronym definition that there must be timed skills, interactive dodge affects, and repercussions when the acronym does not imply any of that. It doesnt exclude any of that but it has never implied it.
Even the PvP on the PvP server of Dark Age of Camelot if ten times better then what WoW offers.
In your opinion, right? Your word is not the word of law. Once again its a different form of PvP that better suits your tastes, nothing more.
People love and play WoW typically because it's widely known and accepted. (See dictionary defination for "fad") and they have not played a better or more fun style of gameplay. They just don't know better. They think that the more people that play the game, the better the game is.
I have played L2, EQ2, CoH/CoV, UO, PSU, SWG, PS, WoW. All of these games are fun. I am not arguing that. And you know what I'll even throw you a bone; some of those games are funner than WoW if you are a hardcore gamer with plenty of time to sink into them, however, I am not arguing for the sake of hardcore gamers. The only game in the list above that can truely be played by a casual is WoW. That was the point of my entire argument.
WoW is a great super simple no risk, all reward game. This is why so many people complain of getting so damn bored of it so quickly. Compare that to the people who have played games like Ultima Online, Everquest (1) and Asherons Call (1) for years and years. There is a huge difference. And I don't mean the graphics either. Graphics ain't crap when it comes to gameplay mechanics and actual fun. I could play a tic-tac-toe game with the best graphics in the world, but the game still pales when compared to a very basic graphical version of Backgammon or Chess.
Yes I will compare the players who are currently playing WoW, and players who are currently playing EQ, or AC. Hey! I just found something! It seems as though most people in the higher up in EQ and AC seem to be able to sink hours a day into the game. Hell After 5 minutes in Orgrimmar in WoW I found 3 people who have full time jobs, and families and are only able to play a few hours a week, all 3 of them in the upper tier of levels. Is EQ and AC funner? Yes but only for hardcore players, casuals will never be able to play those games.
But you'r right. 7.5 million people can't possibly be wrong. Just ask them. But also ask them if they ever really played Asherons Call or Everquest back in the good mmo days. If they have and are honest about it, chances are they will also fill you in on how much they truly miss while playing WoW and all the great mechanics of those games that made them so much fun.
I never ever said 7.5 million people cant be wrong. Shit, 7 billion people can be wrong. I never once compared WoW to any other game in my original argument. All I said is that WoW is one of the very very few games that casuals can actually play. EQ, L2, etc we can't get 1 quest done or 5% of a lvl complete in an hour of gameplay, as opposed to WoW. You are arguing from the point of a hardcore gamer, and even if you are a casual gamer, then you know what maybe WoW just doesnt fit your specific needs, but that doesnt make it a bad game.
Comments
Couldn't have put it better myself.
CoX: Arena. Not PVP. No where can you find CoX claiming to have PVP alone. It is always followed by the word "arena" meaning minigame.
L2:
"The only law in this chaotic landscape is the rule of Karma. Two players that are fighting with one another will both be marked as aggressive, at which point only regular death penalties will apply."
That effects the world. 1 person isn't much of the world, multiply that person by 1000 and it effects the world. That player can no longer participate in normal player events. Such as buying items. World effect.
Can't say anything about EQ1 or EQ2 as I have never played. EQ2 PVP was modelled after WoW.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
WOW is the most restricted MMORPG i know - the whole game is linear. Everyone is doing the same quests, everyones doing the same raids. The quests lack depth and substance, crafting is severely lacking and PVP is a joke.
If you have never played any other MMORPG then fine, you will likely enjoy WOW (at least at first) but don't forget there are a lot of other games our there where players actually have some form of freedom and choice.
Where is it written down in Ye Moste Holy Book Of MMORPG Designe that every game has to conform these (apparently already used) constructs and restrictions? Where is that damn tome anyway?
I'm kind of wondering where this whole concept of combat having to permanently effect the world came from anyway. How many other genres of games does that actually happen in... How many times have the same maps been replayed in an RTS, or a FPS? That kind of implies to me that there is a body of people that don't mind combat not having a permanent effect.
If there are so many MMOs that have Snakey's version of what PVP is supposed to be about, it seems quite logical to make an MMO without long term effects anyway. Hm, PVE combat. Sounds like SRPG, with broad co-op mode. People like SRPGs, people like co-op. Broad co-op, plus SRPG, equals PVE MMORPG in my mind. Naturally, however, you are officially barred from such a game because it doesn't conform to specifications. If you were to play and like such a game, you are inherently inferior in some fashion. Even though its essentially composed of ideas from other genres, which don't seem to have a problem with them.
Doesn't matter, can't let your newfangled carebear ideas get in the way of when the One True MMROPG that will lead us all into a dynamic utopia and persistent paradise. Whenever it actually makes its appearance. In the mean time, enjoy the endless parade of false prophets and charlatans whoever have been promising the destruction WoW and its clone army since before whenever I joined.
The one idea I think is good in this thread is killing the WoW threads. Every time I see one, I get flashbacks through every other pointless thread I've seen that tried to argue subjective opinion as the absolute truth. However I think that also extends to what seems like the nearly-as-infinite constellations of threads explicitly designed to destroy WoW, or better yet, compare it to a game that wasn't released at the time and then promptly fell on it's face. However, I think that those two factors would cut the general board down to a few pages of discussions about Korea (half the posts being Gameloading) and what book or movie we'd like to see as an MMO interspersed with the requests for a f2p 3D MMO that doesn't require a download, the number of which is possibly greater than descendants of Abraham.
Originally posted by SnaKey
CoX has zones designated for PvP.
In world of warcraft, if you take 1000, it will affect the world. More spam in Channels, people running all over the place, and if you are flagged, you will most likely be killed several times, which will effect your ability to "trade" if you can't stay alive long enought to do the trading.
Karma goes away after a while also, so when you stop the "raid" or whatever, everything goes back to normal. Which contradicts one of your above statements if you do claim L2 has World affecting PvP:
I just want to say
Thank you.
It's ppl like you that make me rich in games and the reason I left WoW at lvl 35 with 5000g.
People with no concept of how an economy works, makes the rest of us rich.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
Heh. This is what PvP is supposed to be eh? Says who?
Your want some REAL PvP? Try some PvP on the Asheron's Call Darktide server and THAT is some real PvP. A real challenge. Skill required with dodging and timing and casting the right attack or spells at the right time. Insanely fast paced. With REAL consequences when you die. You leave a corpse that can be looted by the victor. Some of your most valuable items in the game (according to in game value), not real value are almost always lost to the victor. This makes the PvP actually mean something. If there is no risk, then there also is no real reward. Risk = Reward. Nothing Lost, Nothing Gained. Get it? ...Ofcourse you don't. Heh.
Even the PvP on the PvP server of Dark Age of Camelot if ten times better then what WoW offers.
People love and play WoW typically because it's widely known and accepted. (See dictionary defination for "fad") and they have not played a better or more fun style of gameplay. They just don't know better. They think that the more people that play the game, the better the game is.
WoW is a great super simple no risk, all reward game. This is why so many people complain of getting so damn bored of it so quickly. Compare that to the people who have played games like Ultima Online, Everquest (1) and Asherons Call (1) for years and years. There is a huge difference. And I don't mean the graphics either. Graphics ain't crap when it comes to gameplay mechanics and actual fun. I could play a tic-tac-toe game with the best graphics in the world, but the game still pales when compared to a very basic graphical version of Backgammon or Chess.
But you'r right. 7.5 million people can't possibly be wrong. Just ask them. But also ask them if they ever really played Asherons Call or Everquest back in the good mmo days. If they have and are honest about it, chances are they will also fill you in on how much they truly miss while playing WoW and all the great mechanics of those games that made them so much fun.
- Zaxx
I just want to say
Thank you.
It's ppl like you that make me rich in games and the reason I left WoW at lvl 35 with 5000g.
People with no concept of how an economy works, makes the rest of us rich.
Yes, insult me by relating PvP mechanics to the economy.
Run out of other things to say?
Moron
I'm not a hard core gamer by any means (I haven't even played a MMO sense leaving WoW this past summer).
With that said my problem with WoW was simple it was way too easy I'm the kind of gamer that prefers to never reach the Lv cap and with WoW I was there in just a few months. I remember hitting Lv 40 in FFXI and being proud of that, but for me WoW offered nothing to be proud of.
As for raiding it was fun until you realize that your just going to see the same thing over and over again, so that you might get the same gear every one else has.
I'm going to reject both Keeb's and Zaxtor's predilections and define my own PVP cult. As far as I can tell, it'll be every bit as valid as either of theirs no matter how outlandish I'll be able to state it as if it was absolute fact based on subjective evidence or dubious statistics.
I just want to say
Thank you.
It's ppl like you that make me rich in games and the reason I left WoW at lvl 35 with 5000g.
People with no concept of how an economy works, makes the rest of us rich.
Yes, insult me by relating PvP mechanics to the economy.
Run out of other things to say?
Moron
No, it's just over your head. Move along.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
[quote]Originally posted by SnaKeyNo, it's just over your head. Move along.[/b][/quote]
You have yet to prove my previous statements to be incorrect.
WOW is the most restricted MMORPG i know - the whole game is linear. Everyone is doing the same quests, everyones doing the same raids. The quests lack depth and substance, crafting is severely lacking and PVP is a joke.
If you have never played any other MMORPG then fine, you will likely enjoy WOW (at least at first) but don't forget there are a lot of other games our there where players actually have some form of freedom and choice.
I haven't played WoW in over a year. I can hardly be called a fanboy. I'm merely pointing out that most of you bashing the game seem to be doing it because its the "cool" thing to do on these forums. Also I might point out that I've played MMOs since the beginning, starting with The Realm way back in '96. I didn't ever get a chance to play UO or the original EQ in their primes however, but I've played many MMORPGs in that 10 year span. Other than The Realm, which held me for a strong 3 years or so, none of the other MMOs I've played held me as long as WoW did. Maybe it is linear, but its also a solid game, and I enjoyed the full game.
Maybe some of you just need a change of mindset. The idea that an MMORPG starts at endgame is a boneheaded thought. The leveling is meant to be fun, and if that isn't fun in the game you're playing, the game itself isn't fun. In every other MMO I've played besides The Realm and WoW, the leveling itself did seem like a grind. Just my 2 cents, flame away if you must.
Always add "this is my opinion" when you post SnaKey, because WoW is actually an excellent game, and all facts (reviews, awards, playerbase) all point against your opinion, so lets leave it at the fact the game is not for you.
Also, saying the game became big because of the WoW name is quite rediculous. if that was the case, then Final Fantasy XI should have equal numbers to WoW, as well as Star Wars Galaxies and the Matrix Online. WoW sold well because WoW is an excellent game, but it still isn't for everyone. yet we see games like Lineage 1 and Lineage 2, that started with absolutely ZERO name recognition, breaking the 1 million subscriber base.
its also funny how you say that WoW isn't a virtual world, if they aren't, then neither are Everquest, Everquest 2, Dark age of Camelot and Final Fantasy XI just to name a few, because there is close to no diffrence between those titles.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Bravo.
Just because a game doesn't fit what your preconceived notions of what a feature should be, is no reason to call it a bad game. UO and DAoC were good games and did things a certain way, it doesn't mean WoW or every other game should do it the same way.
PvP in DAoC was fun for me, as it had a tension and an epic feel to taking on raiding armies. PvP in WoW was fun for me also, as it had a fast pace and fun combat mechanics. Someone might agree or disagree with those assessments, but you'd have to give a better argument than DAoC didn't have CTF or WoW didn't have keep raids. Not having certain things made both games fun for me. If a huge war happened in DAoC and everyone kept coming back within 1 min, that wouldn't be fun for me. If a capture the flag game in WoW had everyone take 5-10 mins to get back into the fight, that wouldn't be fun for me.
Games are different for better or worse. If you think WoW has more bad than good on general principle because it doesn't have, or does things in a certain way, you're kidding yourself.
It's obvious to me that most people on these forums are here looking for something new or upcoming, so they must therefore have a problem with every game out. Those problems are shared, pooled, and maginified in this group setting. I usually ignore such meaningless negativity, but I just wanted to say that I enjoyed that post by Xpheyel and then decided added my opinions.
And that comment hints that wow is better than SWG.
Anyway wow is not such a bad game if you are new to the mmorpg scene. But its hardly the highest form of online gaming. It doesant even ahve proper pvp.
In my opinion WoW is not the game for me while I found the leveling entertaining and the instance dungeons creative WoW doesn't have the main aspect I look for in games, the ability to live a new life.
SWG for isntance, I didn't have to run mission after mission or grind a skill if I didn't want to. I could just head to the local cantina buy myself a drink and chat it up with the players around me, or I could visit different planets and see different famous locations.
In WoW however I felt forced to level so that I could be useful to my guild in raids. Then I had to raid over and over and get my armor so I could be useful to my guild in better raids etc...
When I play a MMO what I'm looking for is the ability to just enjoy the virtual sites and feel like my character is really living and breathing, while still being able to reach endgame and WoW just doesn't do that for me.
Which FF Character Are You?
Everyone complains about WoW, but the reality is that it is an extremely popular game for the following reasons:
* Fast pace of advancement makes casual play feasible for levelling while still giving a sense of progress to the average casual gamer
* Low death penalty makes the game more attractive to the casual gamer who doesn't have as much time to play and therefore doesn't want what time they do have to play blown away because of a bad pull
* Accessible interface, controls, abundance of quests that disguise grinding
* PvP for fun, not PKing for loot (which is never attractive to casual gamers)
* Famililar and well-loved setting from WC series of RTS games
* Huge community makes the game very alive, vibrant, active ... which people generally prefer in an online setting (it's a kind of positive reinforcement, instead of logging into another game's newbie zone, being all alone and thinking "Hmmm .. what exactly am I doing in this game ....")
Blizzard took a look at the MMO genre and said "Hmmm ... this is a genre that heretofore has largely been a niche genre, catering to more hardcore gamers who have a lot of time to sink into games, and therefore has had a hard time attracting the more casual gamers in large numbers." Blizzard didn't want a niche MMO ... they don't make niche games, they like to make very, very popular games, it is their business model. So, they took the basic idea of the MMO and streamlined it, made it casual friendly (until level cap) , accessible to people who previously had avoided MMOs like the plague for being notorious timesinks, and emphasized quality control ... and produced a product that millions of people have fun playing.
The problem with WoW, it's weakness, is that its current endgame does not match the design idea for the rest of the game, because it becomes a very traditional MMO timesink at level cap. This problem was exacerbated by the fact that it has taken Blizzard more than 2 years to release an expansion to change the endgame somewhat. It's a glaringly odd design decision when compared with the rest of the game design philosophy, and I tend to think that a lot of heads at Blizzard now think it may have been the wrong decision. It's the main weakness of the game as it stands now. Blizzard designed a hardcore endgame in a game that is otherwise very non-hardcore, and that's a serious mismatch. Lots of level 60 players are annoyed with that decision. Other players feel pressured to level and then raid, because that's what the most hardcore and advanced players are doing, and (rightly in my view) find that less than fun. It's a serious issue with the game, and the main flaw of WoW.
The reason why WoW gets whacked around in these forums so often is that these forums tend to attract and maintain the more "hardcore" MMO gamer, not the casual gamer that was Blizzard's main targetted customer in making WoW. Blizzard didn't want to make another game for the MMO set, they wanted to take the MMO and make it accessible to the non-MMO set, and they did that brilliantly. So it's no surprise that the MMO set doesn't like the product, thinks that it has ruined the industry, thinks it's dumbed down garbage, etc. ... because Blizzard wasn't making a game that catered to that segment of the market, primarily. They decided to go after the much larger casual gaming market rather than the much smaller MMO elite market, and they made a ton of money doing that, and have been a great success. Blizzard doesn't care if the elite MMO crowd hates WoW, it isn't hurting their bottom line one bit.
All Eve posts were confined to the Eve forums
All Guild Wars posts were confined to the Guild Wars forums
All Ryzom posts were confined to the Ryzom forums etc.
Given the number of people playing WoW, the fact that it doesn't get mentioned vastly more than the above games seems that people are behaving reasonably sensibly. Certainly there's no one spamming mentions of it in a way that crowds out other games - there is a fair mixture of discussion here. In the past few days there have been active topics about Ryzom, EQ2, Lineage 2, DDO etc.
This is the general discussion forum - where people discuss lots of games. To completely ignore a hugely popular and influential game in the general discussion forum would be kind of odd.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
isn't that why you PAY to play a game online? so you can play and become the best whatever?
not saying pvp, just saying that you're paying for a game so that you can just have so/so gear and be a so/so hero/captain/whatever?
i want as much bang for my buck as possible from cable/satellite, my cell phone, my isp, and especially my games.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i do think that going from casual-friendly all the way up to 60, to hardcore-friendly post-60 was a huge mistake on their part. yes, this was driven by kaplan. there's no way to say that mr "learn to raid" is not the reason that the game takes a radical turn from casual-friendly once you hit 60.
i know a few people that play it just out of boredom. it's not very twitch intensive, and they just keep leveling 60s. every new patch that comes out, the reaction is something like "oh joy, more NON-casual fun that'll take tons of hours to try to get goodies from. yaaaay, i'll just keep doing the same stuff i've been doing since last patch".
boredom, or lack of a suitable alternative is not my idea of having fun. i still think they pushed back BC release because they realized it wouldn't be so easy to undo all the raid-only garbage that kaplan had planned for it all this time.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Heh. This is what PvP is supposed to be eh? Says who?
Says the generally accepted
definetion of the acronym PVP, Player vs Player. As long as you are
fighting against another player in the game then it is pvp. For the
love of god, CS is a pvp game, and there are no repercussions in that.
Your want some REAL PvP? Try some PvP on the Asheron's Call Darktide
server and THAT is some real PvP. A real challenge. Skill required with
dodging and timing and casting the right attack or spells at the right
time. Insanely fast paced. With REAL consequences when you die. You
leave a corpse that can be looted by the victor. Some of your most
valuable items in the game (according to in game value), not real value
are almost always lost to the victor. This makes the PvP actually mean
something. If there is no risk, then there also is no real reward. Risk
= Reward. Nothing Lost, Nothing Gained. Get it? ...Ofcourse you don't.
Heh.
I am not denying that this ^
is not PvP. But PvP does NOT have to meet your own specific
requirements in order to be called so. You have taken your own
experiences of pvp, judged which one was best, and have hence-forth
labelled all forms of pvp unlike this as not being "real" pvp? You seem
to have tacked on to the Player vs player acronym definition that there
must be timed skills, interactive dodge affects, and repercussions when
the acronym does not imply any of that. It doesnt exclude any of that
but it has never implied it.
Even the PvP on the PvP server of Dark Age of Camelot if ten times better then what WoW offers.
In your opinion, right? Your
word is not the word of law. Once again its a different form of PvP
that better suits your tastes, nothing more.
People love and play WoW typically because it's widely known and
accepted. (See dictionary defination for "fad") and they have not
played a better or more fun style of gameplay. They just don't know
better. They think that the more people that play the game, the better
the game is.
I have played L2, EQ2,
CoH/CoV, UO, PSU, SWG, PS, WoW. All of these games are fun. I am not
arguing that. And you know what I'll even throw you a bone; some of
those games are funner than WoW if you are a hardcore gamer with plenty
of time to sink into them, however, I am not arguing for the sake of
hardcore gamers. The only game in the list above that can truely be
played by a casual is WoW. That was the point of my entire argument.
WoW is a great super simple no risk, all reward game. This is why so
many people complain of getting so damn bored of it so quickly. Compare
that to the people who have played games like Ultima Online, Everquest
(1) and Asherons Call (1) for years and years. There is a huge
difference. And I don't mean the graphics either. Graphics ain't crap
when it comes to gameplay mechanics and actual fun. I could play a
tic-tac-toe game with the best graphics in the world, but the game
still pales when compared to a very basic graphical version of
Backgammon or Chess.
Yes I will compare the
players who are currently playing WoW, and players who are currently
playing EQ, or AC. Hey! I just found something! It seems as though most
people in the higher up in EQ and AC seem to be able to sink hours a
day into the game. Hell After 5 minutes in Orgrimmar in WoW I found 3
people who have full time jobs, and families and are only able to play
a few hours a week, all 3 of them in the upper tier of levels. Is EQ
and AC funner? Yes but only for hardcore players, casuals will never be
able to play those games.
But you'r right. 7.5 million people can't possibly be wrong. Just
ask them. But also ask them if they ever really played Asherons Call or
Everquest back in the good mmo days. If they have and are honest about
it, chances are they will also fill you in on how much they truly miss
while playing WoW and all the great mechanics of those games that made
them so much fun.
I never ever said 7.5 million
people cant be wrong. Shit, 7 billion people can be wrong. I never once
compared WoW to any other game in my original argument. All I said is
that WoW is one of the very very few games that casuals can actually
play. EQ, L2, etc we can't get 1 quest done or 5% of a lvl complete in
an hour of gameplay, as opposed to WoW. You are arguing from the point
of a hardcore gamer, and even if you are a casual gamer, then you know
what maybe WoW just doesnt fit your specific needs, but that doesnt
make it a bad game.
- Zaxx
Thank you and goodnight
Eternally mine,
Keebs
The MMO gaming blog I write for.