I think you over exagerate the differences Brad's Vision from Everquest 1 to now.
"
We feel world size should be determined by how much compelling content we can create in the development time we have. Content should drive world size and not really much else. If a world can support 3,000 or 6,000 or 20,000 people simultaneously and the community works, people can find each other, and there's stuff to do for all levels, then it's all good. All that said, given the seamless nature of the world and the ability to travel just about anywhere, Telon IS a big place. Last Updated: 2006-07-06
"
You need to use the informtion available to you and ask the questions "do I agree with the statement?" and "Do I think the game is going to live up to that statement".
If you really want to answer the third question "Has Brad lost his vision since first drumming up Eq 1" you need to think about EQ Classic and only EQ classic then ask yourself if Vanguard really has less or more content to explore than that game did at launch.
This game isn't even out yet and people are saying theres nothign to explore and are comparing it to games that have had 12 expansions.
Originally posted by Razorback If there is a single factor that is attracting me more and more to this game it is the old skool big world and slow travel model. In UO it was one of the best features of the game, the fact that you had to hike pretty much everywhere worth going and the journey was almost always as colourful as the destination. I dont disagree with most of Brads ideas and this is no exception. I think VSoH has a big market with this attitude. There are LOTS of seasoned gamers who look back fondly to the parts of EQ and UO that some people didnt like and are expecting a similar experience with this game. Dont weaken Sigil.... focus
I agree. I want it to feel like I'm going somewhere, not just going through a portal or something.
A game world (in any MMORPG) can be any size, but I think the following equation should apply for there not to be problems:
Size of World = (matched by) Content = (matched by) Size of player base
A "big empty world" does not cut it. A big world filled with content, but lacking players, does not cut it.
That's why I think for new MMORPG's, a smaller world filled with good content is the best place to start. They can always grow a world with new expansions. Just my two cents on this generic topic.
Originally posted by Billius8 A game world (in any MMORPG) can be any size, but I think the following equation should apply for there not to be problems: Size of World = (matched by) Content = (matched by) Size of player base A "big empty world" does not cut it. A big world filled with content, but lacking players, does not cut it. That's why I think for new MMORPG's, a smaller world filled with good content is the best place to start. They can always grow a world with new expansions. Just my two cents on this generic topic.
This is too simplistic. Eve has virtually infinte empty space. But it also has important points of reference, travel chokepoints and ways to survey systems and ways to get where you want within that space.
Big Empty world is far too simplistic of a way to think about such things. It is restraining you to one mechanic for interaction, when in fact there are multiple things you can put together to obtain both space and aggreation or whatever other interaction and world composition goals you want.
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Originally posted by boognish75 is vanguard going to have player housing simialr to swg? if so the empty spaces will fill fast
Vanguard will have player housing. The housing will not be instanced. It will be a part of the world. Beyond that a lot of the specifics of how it will be implemented are not fully known.
I completely understand the point the OP was making. I'm glad it's a large, open world, but I also hope there are rewards to exploring it. Little "Points of Interest" with quests, mobs, rewards for exploring that aren't spectacular enough for power gamers to make a guide on how to find and farm them all, but offer some reward for those who tread off the beaten path and explore ever nook and cranny.
In a simplistic way, EQ2 tried to reward exploration with "collections", where you could find little sea shells, semi-precious rocks, etc... as you explored, things that were worthless except as completed collections that where then traded with an NPC who collected such things. Something similar would be a nice touch here.
I enjoyed exploring SWG lands for the sake of exploring, but always wished there were more rewards for doing so. The terrain looks better in Vanguard, which adds to the interest in exploring terrain just to experience it, but there should be more than that.
Here's an issue. Vanguard is going to feature a number of different mounts, including flying mounts. That's fine. But consider this. In City of Heroes, characters get travel powers. Some can fly. Some get super jump. Some run at incredible speeds. Some teleport (but not portal to portal, just a little ways, and you repeat it). All of that is fun - for a few days. Then you don't care anymore. You just want to get to where you need to go.
The first few times you travel long distance, by whatever means, it's fun. It stops being fun pretty fast, and the 50th+ time you do it it is beyond not fun - it sucks. I think a lot of the enthusiasm for some of these game mechanics are based on how much fun people think it will be the first few times, or else they have forgotten how much they hate that kind of downtime between group encounters.
I remember when I got my first land speeder in SWG. That was a hoot and I loved it, for a week or two. After that, I would have given anything not to have to fly that damn thing across the planet yet again. There were only two things that could happen when I flew, and they were both bad. I could waste 10-15 minutes of my time or I could be attacked and waste even more of my time, but either way I just wished I could get to where I was going.
So if you like this sort of thing, fine, but ask yourself are you gonna love it when you have only 3 hours to play, and you can't hook up with your friends in a dungeon because it will take too long to get there?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
i like big empty spaces. Like wandering around azshara on my low pop WoW server, or back when i mined ore in 1Dh and jumped all the way back to agil to refine it before player stations and such in EVE.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
And thus, he has made a game where the stratifications between players of the same level are off the chart different. You can be level 40 and another player can be level 40 and you may as well be level 12 if you haven't obtained the same items. You can't even effectively group together (as he has said, gear from soloing, for example, does not adequately equip you for group encounters, and likewise from group to raiding). He has taken an element we see in alll rpgs and magnified it into something grotesque for the glorification of the few. In doing so, he has short sheeted a lot of players and a lot of content for those players, because in his mind as long as there are some big carrots in the end game, Joe Lunchpail player will have stars in their eyes and be content to grind in a perpetual state of weakness and monotony, wishing he were somebody else.
I can fully understand your apprehension here; it worries me a little too. My main concern is not being equipped enough to group with a wide variety of people, although in Vanguard crafting also seems to be pretty important in that respect. In games like SWG and Anarchy Online grouping played a major role but was never overly influenced by who had the best weapon and they became good social and fun events, although larger raiding parties were indeed needed for some of the very best items.
My hopes lie in the fact that although we might have learnt to dislike games that get narrower as you progress, leaving you with nothing to do but hunt for carrots. Vanguard might actually get broader allowing for a far greater variety, so those carrots become far less important, not only that but Joe Lunchpail gets lost in the crowd.
As for wide-open spaces, I love them and hopefully there will be many things to discover, time will tell on that one. The most important thing is that devs listen to their players, I really don't think a Carebear/Pking, Joe Lunchbox type of game will survive the 7 years that are planned.
Originally posted by Ryun511 At any rate, I'm sure Brad and co. have seen what happened with Dark and Light and are making things better for travel without teleporters. The whole team really seems to plan and test everything to get it right. I mean,
More importantly though, are you going to be at least trying the game?
I seriously doubt it. Everyone said the same thing about Dark & Light. Before its release MANY people said that D&L would learn from SOE's mistakes of poor customer service and not listening to the player base. ....and of course the Devs of Dark & Light did not learn anything and made the same mistakes.
Game companies are only going to do what makes them money and to hell with what players want.
Originally posted by Tagurit I seriously doubt it. Everyone said the same thing about Dark & Light. Before its release MANY people said that D&L would learn from SOE's mistakes of poor customer service and not listening to the player base. ....and of course the Devs of Dark & Light did not learn anything and made the same mistakes.
Developers don't have to learn, or listen to their customer base, because they are developers, and as such have the wisdom of the ages. Customers are ignorant slime sucking weasels that will purchase any shovelware developers shovel out, because they are too desperate for a good game. So, Christmas is coming, let's just shovel the garbage out the door, onto the shelves, and patch it later. Or maybe, not patch it later....after all, once the sale is made, do we really care? After all, we have the next piece of shovelware to get out by next Christmas....
Well I know nothing about this games current state but I wouldnt doubt that this game has alot of problems in it. I haven't bought a game in years that has worked properly. It seems you dont have to release games that are finished anymore. When I see negative posts like this it gives me alot of doubts.
I hope it turns out to be a decent game. Thats all I expect from games lately.
Originally posted by Tayem makes no freakin sense to me why you waiste your time makin that big awful post of a game you dont care or know anything about about. dont you have something better to do?
Sometime you come across someone who says something that they hadn't really thought about and you say to yourself "they just don't get it".
Right now I'm saying to myself that Tayem just don't get it. Some who criticize Vanguard or it's owner/devs are doing so because they see what could be a very promising game and want to play it. In this example the owners have a track record, several years of it with EQ1. We remember those years, those were the hardest most frustrating times in EQ ever. They said and did things according to their "Vision". Kinda like a "Let them eat cake" attitude. I wonder who came up with the phrase "You're in our world now!" Sometimes doing things in the game that were ugly and mean spirited.
If I made a list of that sort of crap it would be quite large. So now we fast forward to now and Brad and company are in beta for the first game of their new company. We simply don't want to go through that again and it's a legitimate concern in playing Vanguard.
Brad to his credit has come out and admitted to artificial time sinks and other stuff about EQ1 and has said they won't be in Vanguard and has addressed some other concerns, though not all. Thing is that Brad in some ways has to be like a politician. Tell'em what they want to hear so they'll vote (spend money in Brad's case). Of late Brad has backed off on the difficulty of Vanguard. Is he telling the truth? I hope so, many do I'm sure. But people like Amathe are needed for their point of view and to bring attention to concerns and to ask people to be accountable to what they say or ask them to clarify what they say. Ultimately we'll see what's what when the game comes out. But remember we care or we wouldn't bother being the squeaky wheel.
At any rate, I'm sure Brad and co. have seen what happened with Dark and Light and are making things better for travel without teleporters. The whole team really seems to plan and test everything to get it right. I mean, More importantly though, are you going to be at least trying the game?
I seriously doubt it. Everyone said the same thing about Dark & Light. Before its release MANY people said that D&L would learn from SOE's mistakes of poor customer service and not listening to the player base. ....and of course the Devs of Dark & Light did not learn anything and made the same mistakes. Game companies are only going to do what makes them money and to hell with what players want.
You are absolutely correct! In fact, Why play any game? its just the same garbage as you expect... lmfao
At any rate, I'm sure Brad and co. have seen what happened with Dark and Light and are making things better for travel without teleporters. The whole team really seems to plan and test everything to get it right. I mean, More importantly though, are you going to be at least trying the game?
I seriously doubt it. Everyone said the same thing about Dark & Light. Before its release MANY people said that D&L would learn from SOE's mistakes of poor customer service and not listening to the player base. ....and of course the Devs of Dark & Light did not learn anything and made the same mistakes. Game companies are only going to do what makes them money and to hell with what players want.
You are absolutely correct! In fact, Why play any game? its just the same garbage as you expect... lmfao
LOL no doubt! I doubt any game will be any good, let's go read.
Originally posted by spiritglow Right now I'm saying to myself that Tayem just don't get it. Some who criticize Vanguard or it's owner/devs are doing so because they see what could be a very promising game and want to play it. In this example the owners have a track record, several years of it with EQ1. We remember those years, those were the hardest most frustrating times in EQ ever. They said and did things according to their "Vision". Kinda like a "Let them eat cake" attitude. I wonder who came up with the phrase "You're in our world now!" Sometimes doing things in the game that were ugly and mean spirited.
Spiritglow
I dont know amathe but based on all his posts about vanguard i dont think ive even seen a hint of interest in it for what it is. Which is why i highlighted the red part above. he sure doesnt have to like it or play it but if he doesnt why spend so much time trying to change something that obviously has nothing he likes to begin with. Just take this thread, he complains that it has a big world when its one of the key features of the game. Normally i wouldnt have posted anything but all his posts added up and this just happend to be the final straw. Especially since he spouts alot of humbug about a supposidly empty world when he really have no idea what it will be like unless he's in beta and wishes to break it.
Vanguard looks awesome to me, if you want to explore what more could you want . I love to explore too ,and riding around a big empty world has got to be better than riding into a new zone at level 55 and seeing the same things you been killing since level 25 only a little different color and name like world of warcrap or craft i mean lol
Comments
Just please don't put on a wedding dress.
Also should not that be Miss Haversham ??
Support Bacteria, its the only culture some people have.
I think you over exagerate the differences Brad's Vision from Everquest 1 to now.
"
We feel world size should be determined by how much compelling content we can create in the development time we have. Content should drive world size and not really much else.
If a world can support 3,000 or 6,000 or 20,000 people simultaneously and the community works, people can find each other, and there's stuff to do for all levels, then it's all good. All that said, given the seamless nature of the world and the ability to travel just about anywhere, Telon IS a big place.
Last Updated: 2006-07-06
"
You need to use the informtion available to you and ask the questions "do I agree with the statement?" and "Do I think the game is going to live up to that statement".
If you really want to answer the third question "Has Brad lost his vision since first drumming up Eq 1" you need to think about EQ Classic and only EQ classic then ask yourself if Vanguard really has less or more content to explore than that game did at launch.
This game isn't even out yet and people are saying theres nothign to explore and are comparing it to games that have had 12 expansions.
imho
A game world (in any MMORPG) can be any size, but I think the following equation should apply for there not to be problems:
Size of World = (matched by) Content = (matched by) Size of player base
A "big empty world" does not cut it. A big world filled with content, but lacking players, does not cut it.
That's why I think for new MMORPG's, a smaller world filled with good content is the best place to start. They can always grow a world with new expansions. Just my two cents on this generic topic.
Big Empty world is far too simplistic of a way to think about such things. It is restraining you to one mechanic for interaction, when in fact there are multiple things you can put together to obtain both space and aggreation or whatever other interaction and world composition goals you want.
playing eq2 and two worlds
If I recall correctly there will be player housing but only in specific locations to begin with.
Take a look at these FAQ articles: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=518
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Beyond that a lot of the specifics of how it will be implemented are not fully known.
In a simplistic way, EQ2 tried to reward exploration with "collections", where you could find little sea shells, semi-precious rocks, etc... as you explored, things that were worthless except as completed collections that where then traded with an NPC who collected such things. Something similar would be a nice touch here.
I enjoyed exploring SWG lands for the sake of exploring, but always wished there were more rewards for doing so. The terrain looks better in Vanguard, which adds to the interest in exploring terrain just to experience it, but there should be more than that.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Here's an issue. Vanguard is going to feature a number of different mounts, including flying mounts. That's fine. But consider this. In City of Heroes, characters get travel powers. Some can fly. Some get super jump. Some run at incredible speeds. Some teleport (but not portal to portal, just a little ways, and you repeat it). All of that is fun - for a few days. Then you don't care anymore. You just want to get to where you need to go.
The first few times you travel long distance, by whatever means, it's fun. It stops being fun pretty fast, and the 50th+ time you do it it is beyond not fun - it sucks. I think a lot of the enthusiasm for some of these game mechanics are based on how much fun people think it will be the first few times, or else they have forgotten how much they hate that kind of downtime between group encounters.
I remember when I got my first land speeder in SWG. That was a hoot and I loved it, for a week or two. After that, I would have given anything not to have to fly that damn thing across the planet yet again. There were only two things that could happen when I flew, and they were both bad. I could waste 10-15 minutes of my time or I could be attacked and waste even more of my time, but either way I just wished I could get to where I was going.
So if you like this sort of thing, fine, but ask yourself are you gonna love it when you have only 3 hours to play, and you can't hook up with your friends in a dungeon because it will take too long to get there?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
pop WoW server, or back when i mined ore in 1Dh and jumped all the way
back to agil to refine it before player stations and such in EVE.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Amathe posted;
And thus, he has made a game where the stratifications between players of the same level are off the chart different. You can be level 40 and another player can be level 40 and you may as well be level 12 if you haven't obtained the same items. You can't even effectively group together (as he has said, gear from soloing, for example, does not adequately equip you for group encounters, and likewise from group to raiding). He has taken an element we see in alll rpgs and magnified it into something grotesque for the glorification of the few. In doing so, he has short sheeted a lot of players and a lot of content for those players, because in his mind as long as there are some big carrots in the end game, Joe Lunchpail player will have stars in their eyes and be content to grind in a perpetual state of weakness and monotony, wishing he were somebody else.
I can fully understand your apprehension here; it worries me a little too. My main concern is not being equipped enough to group with a wide variety of people, although in Vanguard crafting also seems to be pretty important in that respect. In games like SWG and Anarchy Online grouping played a major role but was never overly influenced by who had the best weapon and they became good social and fun events, although larger raiding parties were indeed needed for some of the very best items.
My hopes lie in the fact that although we might have learnt to dislike games that get narrower as you progress, leaving you with nothing to do but hunt for carrots. Vanguard might actually get broader allowing for a far greater variety, so those carrots become far less important, not only that but Joe Lunchpail gets lost in the crowd.
As for wide-open spaces, I love them and hopefully there will be many things to discover, time will tell on that one. The most important thing is that devs listen to their players, I really don't think a Carebear/Pking, Joe Lunchbox type of game will survive the 7 years that are planned.
I seriously doubt it. Everyone said the same thing about Dark & Light. Before its release MANY people said that D&L would learn from SOE's mistakes of poor customer service and not listening to the player base. ....and of course the Devs of Dark & Light did not learn anything and made the same mistakes.
Game companies are only going to do what makes them money and to hell with what players want.
QFE
It is HUGE, and FAR from empty.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Well I know nothing about this games current state but I wouldnt doubt that this game has alot of problems in it. I haven't bought a game in years that has worked properly. It seems you dont have to release games that are finished anymore. When I see negative posts like this it gives me alot of doubts.
I hope it turns out to be a decent game. Thats all I expect from games lately.
Right now I'm saying to myself that Tayem just don't get it. Some who criticize Vanguard or it's owner/devs are doing so because they see what could be a very promising game and want to play it. In this example the owners have a track record, several years of it with EQ1. We remember those years, those were the hardest most frustrating times in EQ ever. They said and did things according to their "Vision". Kinda like a "Let them eat cake" attitude. I wonder who came up with the phrase "You're in our world now!" Sometimes doing things in the game that were ugly and mean spirited.
If I made a list of that sort of crap it would be quite large. So now we fast forward to now and Brad and company are in beta for the first game of their new company. We simply don't want to go through that again and it's a legitimate concern in playing Vanguard.
Brad to his credit has come out and admitted to artificial time sinks and other stuff about EQ1 and has said they won't be in Vanguard and has addressed some other concerns, though not all. Thing is that Brad in some ways has to be like a politician. Tell'em what they want to hear so they'll vote (spend money in Brad's case). Of late Brad has backed off on the difficulty of Vanguard. Is he telling the truth? I hope so, many do I'm sure. But people like Amathe are needed for their point of view and to bring attention to concerns and to ask people to be accountable to what they say or ask them to clarify what they say. Ultimately we'll see what's what when the game comes out. But remember we care or we wouldn't bother being the squeaky wheel.
Spiritglow
I too adore exploring worlds,
which is why i loved WoW so much. Just out of curiosity...what games have you played that are really fun to explore? thx
Lu.
You are absolutely correct! In fact, Why play any game? its just the same garbage as you expect... lmfao
I seriously doubt it. Everyone said the same thing about Dark & Light. Before its release MANY people said that D&L would learn from SOE's mistakes of poor customer service and not listening to the player base. ....and of course the Devs of Dark & Light did not learn anything and made the same mistakes. Game companies are only going to do what makes them money and to hell with what players want.
You are absolutely correct! In fact, Why play any game? its just the same garbage as you expect... lmfao
LOL no doubt! I doubt any game will be any good, let's go read.