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Is it just me, or does anyone else think that AD&D rulesets suck?
Vhayne
Member UncommonPosts: 632
I have tried and tried, and even tried some more, but I still just can't seem to accept the rulesets in the dungeon and dragon games.
I'm sure it all makes total sense when you're throwing dice around, but in a video game, it just seems lackluster.
I admit, I don't know a whole ton about it, but the things I don't like are:
1. THAC0 -- Why does armor class have to be "lower = better"
2. Weapon/Armor diversity -- I've been using a regular storebought Longsword for 5 levels, and I finally get my UBER upgrade.......a Longsword +1 (which in affect lets me add 1 point to my roll when try to hit something?) This is my most hated rule.
3. Saving throws -- While it all makes sense, and I know it's been used in other games, I just can't understand why it can't be as simple as resistance.
4. Buffs -- How about a +2 to your ability to dodge missle attacks? Pfft.
Let's look at Everquest as the king of rules done right. I know they fall back on D&D rules, but they implement them in a much better way in my opinion.
1. If you swing your sword to hit something, different things are calculated behind the screen. How much STR/DEX you have, your weapon skill, mob's AC, and weapon damage rating and speed. I know it's probably similar to THAC0, but why does one really need to worry about this in a video game?
2. Weapons that have all sorts of speed, damage, and damage type ratings. They have stats that add to yours, as well as resists, and sometimes procs, and right-clickable effects. Armor is the same way. Nothing as pathetic as Leather Armor +2.
3. Resists are very similar, but when they get buffed, just tell me that I got a bump in a certain resist. Don't tell me that I have a +1 to tumble.
4. Wow such diversity when it comes to buffs. Stat boosts for every kind. Regen boosts. HoT's, snares that actually work, roots, etc. Fun buffs like levitate and sow (run speed buff). Where is that in D&D?
Again, I say again, I don't know alot about D&D, but from what I've seen of the rules, I just don't care for it. Perhaps it's great on paper and dice, but in a computer game, that stuff is left behind the screen.
Comments
Unless you are trying to argue that a ruleset from twenty years ago sucks, fine, but erm you are waaaay outdated.
3.0 and 3.5 rules are far superior to 1st ed AD&D espeically the way they handled feats and multiclassing/prestige classing.
3.0 and 3.5 have both saving throws and multiple kinds of resistance. Both threshold resisitance and % immunity. Saving throws generally are used for things that can be avoided, either dodged or through strength of will. It is not a bad concept really. And with ed 3+ having the concept of a Difficulty rating it makes much more sense than the old AD&D way. DC baiscally means someone who is a weak caster will often fail a charm against someone who has a strong will, but someone who is a strong caster will often succeed. No longer is it the case that a high level cleric is just plain hard to charm no matter what. If you have really high Int and High level.
Yeah saving throws used to be pretty dumb, but they are actually pretty good now.
They even changed spell resistance to be more sane rather than the orignally super power % failure chance.
Most of the stuff that I thought was outright dumb was made much better in ed 3+
I think what you are trying to say is that you have more than likely tried the DDO trial and find it all a bit complicated, I don't mean that horribly.
Your character in DDO has a lot more stats to play with, fine tune if you like.
I play because you can really create quite a unique character if you wished, dictate how high they can jump, how much they can carry, sneak, spot hidden enemies and tumble, which you mentioned. Ceratin classes like the rogue can roll out of the way of danger etc, get tumble high enough and you can even backflip and do cartwheel like manouvers.
You can make a character more in the style you would want to be, it does not seem so cookie cutter and pre-planned. A wizard being able to use a repeating crossbow for instance is a favourite, you can take this further then with multiclassing, for instance be a wizard/ranger or even, wizard/ranger/rogue, some combinations work better than others, depending on base stats and individual playstyle but that is where the fine tuning and experimenting comes into it.
I play a wizard and have fairly fun spells like feather fall, which i can cast on the group and the dance line of spells and I have 2 speed spells at lvl 5, expeditious retreat which makes me run faster and haste, which speeds up the whole group, not only run speed but attack speed. I have 30 different spells at lvl 5, my lvl 60 character in WoW had less than that, as did my 40 wiz in EQ2!
There is so much weapon diversity, I could not list them all here, crossbows, pick's, scimitar's, rapier's, greatswords, daggers, wands, on and on and on. Some have special properties, like a '+2 flaming rapier of power I' for instance, which my ranger/wizard soloing character has.
Turbine have not implemented all the rules, spells etc of D&D, they have also changed some, like giving casters spell points etc and having shrines but you have to remember, these rules have grown over 30 years and nearly if not all MMO's today have sprung from these rules.
People say that NWN etc have implemented them better, but you have to remember that it's essentially a turn based game like D&D, in an MMO like DDO, it would be impossible, could you imagine just 2 wizards with a spell like time stop? I think Turbine have done a good job.
Even Blizzard had to make changes to their own lore for MMO purposes, will Warhammer be exactly like the tabletop/miniatures game? Will Conan be just like the books? Sacrifices have to be made, just as they are in movies, Spidey's web shooters spring to mind.
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This is me coming from L2, but.. I despise buffs. The permanent kind (like passives and buffs on gear) are okay, but what I hate is that routine you have to do every 20 minutes. This gets especially inane at higher levels when you have 2 or 3 buffers in your party who all needs to give your party full buffs.
There are buffs in D&D in the form of potions, spells, and enchanted gear.
Resists is a broad term. In your average game, just 4% reduction in fire damage is kinda boring I think. D&D has damage soak as well. Tumble let's you avoid attacks of opportunity while moving, it's kinda like a ninja/commando roll.
1. If you swing your sword to hit something, different things are
calculated behind the screen. How much STR/DEX you have, your weapon
skill, mob's AC, and weapon damage rating and speed. I know it's
probably similar to THAC0, but why does one really need to worry about
this in a video game?
What would be the point of str/dex if it had no effect? If it did have an effect but it was "hidden", 90% of us would want to know what the formula was anyway so we could work with it.
I play rpg's to evolve and develop my character. If I want it to be about "personal skill" I just go play unreal tournament or something.
AD&D ruleset!?
Where did you find that , in some dusty old attic .. lol
Dude AD&D ruleset is discontinued for over what, 10 years now ?
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2. a longsword +1 adds +1 to your to-hit roll AND your damage. D&D variety in items comes much later, with special abilities like flaming, holy avengers, vorpals and loads more. sadly you need to be quite higher than 5 to get any of those.
3. what you mean "something as simple as resistance"? care to explain?
4. eh? many buffs in DDO and D&D affects your STATS, like strength and dexterity. don't recall such a meager thing as +2 only to avoid missiles? there is a spell to give you damage resistance to missiles though that makes you higly invulnerables from them... or almost.
SECOND part
1. strength affect damage and to-hit in D&D. Dexterity affects how hard you are to hit and to-hit for ranged weapons. beside, what you mean why somebody has to worry about this in a videogame? what the heck you mean? you do not care about all those effects in EQ? it is the same damn thing, just changes the maths, but it still depends on what class you are, what weapon you using, what are your stats and what you fighting.
2. so is D&D, albeit more limited. but higher level magic items can have all you mentioned.
3. tumble is a skill? what it has to do with resistances??
4. stats' buff: All the various buffs that affect. dunno: dexteirty, strength (Bull's strength, bear's endurance, owl's wisdom etc), there are healing spells, not sure about regneration spells, but prolly
you get snares, it is called "Web". "grease" is another form of that. Levitation exists and there is a spell called "expeditious retreat" or haste that affect your movement speed.
So what you are talking about?
From your post it is not clear if you are talking about DDO, the 1980s AD&D or what. care to explain better?
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Check your facts.
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??? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ??.
^that's supposed to say "All this is Greek to me." in Greek. But apparently they don't support the Greek Alphabet on these forums. :-/
W/e. I wish there was a delete button, that would be so nice.
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I think the ruleset translated well for the most part to the MMO aspect. My only dislike was the leveling aspect of DDO(can you say...streeetched?).
That and maybe 'Attacks of Opportunity.' Is that in DDO? I don't remember. That's something I think needs to be worked on or simplified.
D
The D&D rules are designed for pencil and paper gaming, and the latest version (3.5 ed) is more than adequate in that genre, although arguably not the best (insert religious war here). The rules govern a large number of different situations, and allow resolution using only a minimal number of dice rolls and relatively simple calculations.
Computer games can take advantage of a PCs ability to number crunch efficiently, and can involve alot more number calculations behind the scenes, allowing slightly smoother, more realistic outcomes, and a higher level of detail. For example the feat system in WoW is alot more number crunchy than the corresponding system in D&D.
Rules systems designed for PCs are also more heavily slanted towards being friendly to new players, and introduce concepts as you advance, whilst tabletop systems are designed to give complex gameplay for all character levels, and have a steeper learning curve. Whereas for many computer games like WoW and everquest it is possible to start playing after only a few minutes glancing at the manual, someone who wants to run a table top game may have to spend several evenings reading through manuals (this is true for alot of tabletop systems, not just D&D). Even to sit down and play a tabletop game, with other people handing the number crunchy bits, may require a new player to endure a 10-20 minute explanation of what all those numbers are on his character sheet etc.
Any computer game developed using tabletop rules is deliberately avoiding taking advantage of the opportunities presented by the medium, and hence is likely to be less than it could be. To this extent you could say "it sucks". However it has the advantage of immediate familiarity to tabletop players and other people who have played D&D based computer games.
Hence for existing D&D players - computer game with D&D ruleset = familiar and easy to learn
For non-D&D players - computer game with D&D ruleset = steep learning curve and not designed to take advantage of PC
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I quite like the "Attacks of Opportunity" system. It adds a little more realism to combat and allows things like:
i) Holding a line based on the reach of your weapon rather than just the space your body is physically occupying.
ii) Simulating the difficulty of casting a complex spell whilst someone is waving a large axe in your face
iii) How turning and running may allow an opponent a free chance to hit you in the back.
Of course, if you are running a tabletop game, then it's your adventure, and if you want a system thats relatively light on rules and concentrates on character interaction and roleplay, then attacks of opportunity may get in the way and hence you should drop them. It's all a matter of what style of game you want.
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So my opinion on your post is that AD&D is a good system for powergamer tweaker types and the ruleset just takes a bit of getting used to it (When I started roleplaying it was natural that less AC was better). And the saving throw system is much better than your "universal resistance"-sytem since there is actually a spell resistance system included in the game.
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my favourite tabletop ruleset is legnd of the five rings, but having a
good GM is far more important than any system.
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A good GM can make any system fun.
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Biggest myth ever.
The CAN but why should they have to do three times as much work and use a system that doesn't support the playstyle they're going for?
A huge problem with modern MMOs is that they've learned squat from 30+ years of RPGs. Most still use classes/levelss for example.
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i) Holding a line based on the reach of your weapon rather than just the space your body is physically occupying.
ii) Simulating the difficulty of casting a complex spell whilst someone is waving a large axe in your face
iii) How turning and running may allow an opponent a free chance to hit you in the back.
Of course, if you are running a tabletop game, then it's your adventure, and if you want a system thats relatively light on rules and concentrates on character interaction and roleplay, then attacks of opportunity may get in the way and hence you should drop them. It's all a matter of what style of game you want.
Agreed. Though when I played the tabletop it was hard to explain to some folks. In games like NWN2 and TOEE, if the AI pathing was poor, it was a goddamn nightmare. Since I don't remember how it works in DDO I can't comment. Perhaps then its 'medium' specific.
D
Complete crap! Whilst you put "1337" speak into the mouths of others, if anyone is being elitist it is you. For are you not claiming that your version of roleplaying is better than that practiced by the masses?
When was this mythical golden age that you speak of? The thing that has been destroyed by wizards? Did people speak in the tones of Shakesperean actors, and use words backed by an imagination worthy of Lewis Carroll?
People are people. The majority of the roleplaying hobby has always been interested in mini-maxing to some extent, and it's quite clear from looking at an area where wizards has less influence (e.g. MMOs or even the real world) that this is a reflection of human nature rather than any sinister scheme on the part of wizards of the coast.
Curiously enough, the least mini-maxing game I have ever played was based around D&D. The campaign ran for around eight years, and emphasised fun and humour. The GM put in alot of effort and every session was set to it's own pre-record soundtrack from his extensive music collection. XP was awarded in such a way that it was easy to advance past the first few levels, but took a long time after that. I believe in that entire campaign no-one ever advanced past seventh level.
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