Hey This is a great topic and awesome comments from all members!
Even though I do not post very often, I do read these Forums almost everyday and find it very enlightening to hear from other hardcore MMo..ers..
I agree wil everything everyone has said and more. It sure looks like all of you or us have tons of excellent experience in alll fields of MMOs...hopefully developers read this as well!!!
Saying that! The DO NOT CHANGE one might not always be a bad move, I played SWG when it first came out and found it soooo confusing, hard to understand, had absolutely no idea what I was doing or where I was going. It was at that time the most difficult MMO I have ever played. After about 3-4 months of try and try I left the game (I am not a Sci-Fi fan but more of a Fantasy fan) so that may have been part of it. I went back to SWG after they made all those changes ( about 5 months ago) and low and behold..it was so much easier to play....not combat style or crafting, selling..it was the entire game itself. For the Mature 43 year old me, I could understand so much more...Now before anyone says anything "like there goes a newbie" which I am not,: it made it more accessable to play for casual "older" players like myself. It was way to complicated before so they changed it and made it more "user Friendly" for peeps like me. Anyways, enough said about that...
The biggest part of any "new game" must be done in Beta phase. LISTEN TO YOUR BETA TESTERS!!! How many times have testers found major and minor flaws only to be completely ignored by Devs... Friends and myself found some big bugs in Archlord and repedetely told the Devs about it only to have the exact same bugs appear in the release of the game worlwide only to have it cause major aggravation to all those new players....Damn it Devs, we beta play/test games before they are released and try things out in advance of released dates only to have it still appear in released games....I am sure others have experienced this...
One more important item: Hire Tech support people that have actually beta tested, played and had their bloddy credit card declined on them for no reason so they FEEL for you when you run into a problem....And make sure that your Tech support peeps ACTUALLY answer in a timely fashion any ingame issues that may arise..Bad tech Support = Hard core players leave to go elsewhere....
Long post but I needed to add to this great topic..
Cheers
Rad
Its worse to actually think about doing something then actually doing it!!!
If you run a free to play game with the option to pay cash for items (eg shopping mall) In which many games do.
Do not make the game so you eventualy have to pay in order to have fun in the game. This will make you lose some players. I've seen this happen alot at the moment in Conqueronline.
Originally posted by bverji Originally posted by Distortion0 This is actually pretty good advice. Hell, #4 is why I left a bunch of other MMOs for CoH/V.
Heh, number 1 is why I and most of my guild left COH. As well as number 4 bec ause it had almost no end game. I would like to know what huge changes CoH made? Did you read #4, it says not to focus only on the end game! It as the same end game as all other regular MMO, PvP and Raiding. But atleast the level is fun and the questing is non linear.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Cryptic ( COH/COV) is one of the BIGGEST offenders of this articles 1st rule. COH's Issue 5/ ED "DEBACLE" is STILL a sore spot among many of those who still play.
They basicly reset the game and at the same time obliterated dozens of builds.
You are comparing ED nerf with SWG NGE, I think something is very wrong here to say that Cryptic is one of the biggest offenders of rule #1. You do realise that other games as been change more than that. ED was needed for the good of the game, I remember, I was able to herd over 100 mobs with my invulnerable tank, for me that did not make sense and there was no challenge. ED was just a nerf like you see in most game when something is not well balance for the fonctionality of the game, but they did not change everything in the game like SWG.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
I loved the artical and I have to say that I'm plesantly surprised that the SOE fury has not reared its ugly head on this artical..............yet.
another rule I would like to add is:
NEVER EVER put a alpha class in a MMO, leave it for single player games. Jedi was this in SWG. true everyone wants to be a jedi in a star wars game ( unless your a freak like me ) but there are times when that is VERY unwise.
Personally I think another could be added to the list. However I'm not sure how important it is to a lot of people.
Don't waste the game world is what I would add or let it become to big. Everquest 1 is a great example of this. Build up the game yes however there comes a point where the game world is so large that majority of it goes unused and as a result creates the feeling of a dead world. This generally happens I think when games become so top heavy and developers begin to fous only on end game content. You kill any type of new growth as a result I think. New players join and find dead space in areas they should be hunting. This forces people to blitz through the game to get to other players and "new content" which is blown through by hardcore players.
It's a combination of being "endgame" content happy and letting the direction of the game be decided by the vocal powergamers instead of normal players. Those that notice this however are the ones that suffer because of it while those at the top don't ever realize it. Developers being to endgame happy don't realize it I think or refuse to.
Hey, I haven't cared for most of Dan's articles so far but this one was good and well written. It also happened to be spot on. I would add a #5... going back and fixing content to be bug free and work properly is better than just adding more content that doesn't work.
1,2,3,5 are why I left AO 1,2,3,4 are why I left Neocron. All of them are why I left Ryzom. 1 and 4 are why I quit WoW in the end.
Originally posted by Anofalye About the "DON'T CHANGE YOUR GAME TOO MUCH". I agree with the OP. However, starting a new server with completely different rules and system is definitely possible. See, if SWG would have see CU on new servers only, then NGE on a next gen of servers later...it would prolly be towering over all other SoE products in subscribtions and fans would be "happy". Of course, updating existing games would start been an issue, but if you have double the players, you can then decide which servers deserve updates and which doesn't...which is better than been stuck with the NGE, for the better and the worst. Expansions should normally not go live on existing servers, only on new ones, while you automatically duplicate toons from server A to server C, so you don't waste time to ask players which server they prefer, transfer or not...the player has his toon on both server at the release of a new expansion and can try both and change his mind as often as he wishes. If the player advances his character on a server and not the other, he pretty much make his choice...and if he plays on both, well he advances twice slower, which mean he will remain a subscribing player longer, which is again something you should be happy with. No player will hold a grudge to see you do all type of weird stuff on different servers, in fact, most will love to know that you are always trying, seriously, to improve the game. Even if you make a pink server and I think you are nuts, that is still not affecting me in any ill way, and once you see that players don't join the pink servers you can just shrug off these months of developpment and return to the basic, to what the players like.
bump Bump BUMP!
So on the money except for expansions going on new servers but clearly with SWG they should have rolled out changes onto new servers and let players decide which they preferred. Probably would put a strain on the devs infighting behind the scenes for the direction of the game.
Although I agree with the OP for the editorial, I don't agree with some of the CoX comments.
NC Soft has done pretty well with its game IMHO, it has stayed on my hard drive since installation unlike WoW, DAoC and EQ2. I do remember when they made the enhancement changes and the backlash because of it. I had a scrapper (which were supposedly "nerfed" with it) but I just respec'd and adjusted the slotting. Continued with him no problem and he was my first 50.
The endgame in CoX is rather light, but then the nature of the game that's to be expected. Still most players don't spend all the time doing trials and task/strike forces either so they will still have that to do if they wish.
Carbon copying other MMOs may seem like the perfect financial move but it generally ends up costing money. Basically no originality exists to keep a gamer engaged and interested. World of Warcraft, Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest, Asheron's Call, City of Heroes/Villains, and Second Life (to name a few) are great examples of games that spent years developing an innovative experience that for the most part keep their player base happy and addicted.
NUMBER SIX: STORY BEFORE GRAPHICS
Maybe it's me but there seems to be a growing trend among Asian MMOs of having ad-hoc like storylines that are merely in place to justify a MMO's existence. For certain games like Quake where the FPS action is THE story within complex online environments the story remains one of the most important elements. George Lucas in the video, "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga" ironically said it best, "A special effect is a tool that carries a story forward. A special effect without a story is a boring thing." (Change "special effect" with "graphics"). In a recent tryout of Space Cowboy the feeling I got was, "why am I shooting floating jellyfish?! Is this part of the story? Where's the Space in Space Cowboy?"
NUMBER SEVEN: NEGLECT LEADS TO ATTRITION
This is an expansion of number three that goes beyond talking with testers and into conversing with the community. And not merely having CSRs answering forum postings but holding town hall meetings and the like goes a long way in showing the fan base the developers/publishers really cares for their product. For example the staff and an army of Volunteers for Second Life do an excellent job of getting involved in the community and listening to their concerns. In a recent decision Linden Labs was going to increase pricing for island real estate. The community outcry caused Linden Labs to make satisfactory compromises.
NUMBER EIGHT: COMMUNITY BEFORE STORY
Why do many play MMOs? Essentially to meet other like-minded gamers, form alliances, and share adventures. What happens when an MMO doesn't have intuitive tools for this aspect of gameplay? You end up having a MMO that doesn't really feel like a community effort and diminishes into a single player experience... something that isn't worth $15 bucks a month. This of course leads to...
NUMBER NINE: YOU CAN BE FREE AND PROFITABLE
Some companies are exploring this business model and finding a healthy modicum of success. Anarchy Online explored the concept of including billboard advertisements in-game in exchange for playing for free. While it is strange to encounter billboards advertising Fanta cola within an Alien world, the fact that this helps makes AO free is fine. Second Life offers a free account and a premium account. While both give the residents the same level of immersion only premium account holders can own land as well as receive a sizeable increase to their weekly stipends (from 50 $Lindens to 500 $Lindens). Saga of Ryzom lets visitors play free for an unlimited trial period within a huge landmass (about the size of four WOW zones). When you're ready you can upgrade to a subscription and access the mainland. Guild Wars' model is simple: buy the game retail and play online for free. And both the Maple Story client and online play is free. The trick is Nexon offers uniquely created gear that can be purchased using their proprietary NexonCash, a form of currency that can be purchased with real cash.
NUMBER TEN: LET THE PLAYERS IMPACT THE STORY AND ENVIRONMENT
To this day Asheron's Call remains one of my favorite MMOs. I felt like my actions and the actions of those on my server (Morningthaw and Solclaim) truly affected the storyline. Turbine did an unheard of thing -- and to date no other company has matched -- of delivering new story-driven content each month (many companies said attempting something like this would be prohibitively expensive). New content consisted of several small quests and usually one main storyline. The main plot would arc over a period of months before completion was achieved. And unheard of was Turbine decision to deliver varied results to each server depending on how well the community handled last month's plot objectives. Turbine was also never afraid to make shocking, albeit welcomed changes to world. An example comes in the form of a plot device during the first retail year. The story line starts off with several mysteriously large rotating Spires leaving destruction in their wake as they travelled the landscape. The next month the Spires destroy three cities; one of which, Arwic, was considered THE central trading hub for many. I remember logging in one evening and shockingly hearing reports from guildmates that Arwic is gone. I couldn't believe it until I visited and a city I visited frequently was reduced to a large crater. This is what I call impacting the story and environment! In retrospect this would be tantamount to Blizzard deciding to destroy Ironforge or Ogrimmar because the ongoing story warranted it. While the joint effort between Horde and Alliance against the Qirajian invasion was a great move in the overall WOW story, sadly this sort of gameplay does not exist in many of today's MMOs (even in a large part within WOW). And it should.
Sorry about the long reply. Dan's article sparked several issues that have irked me with today's MMOs. I feel better having gotten them off my chest. Hopefully you can agree with some of my observations.
This time Dan had a good muse and for that it's a big relief. Hope it'll stick around uhh... for Dan's sake.
To me, if any or 25% of developers/publishers/designers resolves to RELIGIOUSLY adhere to point No.3, it can easily lead to No.1, 2 & 4 almost painlessly. Realistically it won't get things improved up to the needed 90% mark (worse case scenario would be that players themselves who fucked up the whole deal by fussing over minor deets if any..) but imagine the time and effort saved from taking point No.3 seriously. Let's not even begin on post title launch aggravations by players which (more often than not) may stretch for years to come..
It's still is an amazing thing (yet not remotely funny anymore..) to see Shadowbane vets still spewing hell in their pissed off rants on SB's ever prevalent flaws and shit but who can blame 'em?
Originally posted by Rihahn If you look at the credits on a few near-miss titles you'll see an almost ten to one ratio of art folks to designers.
This is fairly common in game development. The artist to dev/designer ratio for a PC or next gen title can be 10 to 1 at times (I am a dev so I am speaking from that angle). The reason is that all of the newer games require lots of art that is not easy to generate so you end up with an army of artists.
I do occasionally run into artists that feel they should design the game since they determine the look (which I believe is a very wrong approach). However, in most cases designers are responsible for the primary design of the game. Now whether or not these are good designers is another story (ie SWG).
I do agree on all the points mentioned for new MMO's. The biggest problem is scope. Many games try to do too much and leave the basics half finished (like decent terrain collision or a properly westernized control scheme when shipped in the US). If the core is solid you can always grow the game later (WoW and CoH are both testaments to this approach).
Originally posted by KillerJimmy #1 is huge. It could go along the lines of a thought I had about why I quit MMOs. #1.5 Don't ruin player plans This came to me when I was playing WoW recently and trying to figure out why I quit most MMOs I had liked. Sure I had played them for a long time (usually around 6-9 months, sometimes more), but something had to trigger my leaving. Many times I would think while playing: "I need more content", "PvP isn't balanced", "x is broken with my class" or "x and y bugs are really annoying and should have been fixed months ago"...but I would play on. What made something snap inside? SWG - For SWG it wasn't what you might expect. I had wanted to unlock a jedi since I started, I wanted all the game had to offer and there was a super secret, super detailed way to become a hero. So I explored everything, I mapped every planet on foot...I had every POI in the game on my maps and could return to the x,y at any time. I knew all the caves very well. I spent a lot of time at old jedi ruins and a lot of time on the force crystal caves looking for the smallest clue or the smallest switch to open something. One day $OE released holos to light the way to the path. I figured: "I've done everything else in the game, this will be the final thing I need. Since I haven't done many professions..." If I had known the truth about 8 professions being the only thing to unlock jedi, I'm sure I would have quit right then. Instead I joined the holo-grind to get the jedi I had always wanted. I am not a crafter or businessman by nature, so I don't play one in games. The only way I could support the cost of switching professions and grinding them was to sell whatever I found while adventuring. One day our guild mall was just gone. I couldn't support myself with all that money missing, so I sought help from $OE. The CSR claimed it couldn't be recovered (which I knew was a lie) and with the prospect of my plans being ruined or hugely set back, I quit SWG. The entire core group of people that had made the guild famous quit within 1-2 months of that event. Lineage 2 - The grind in Lineage 2 is the silliest thing I have ever seen with a game, at 52+ it was taking me 3-4+ weeks to get a single level due to having a job. Still I played on. I went away for a week or two and when I came back everyone I knew had already left the game due to grind. This game is the only one where I think it wasn't a drastic game change that made me leave. Just the same old boring game play took important people from the game. World of Warcraft - I hate the WoW engine, straight up think it is junk. But I loved the game early on. I could solo significant encounters. I could play an important role in a group (coming from no groups wanting my class in L2, it seemed like heaven). From polish, to quests, to fun filled zones and PvP, this game had it made. When I hit 60 I did the logical thing for my character progression and started raiding with my guild. The thing I remember the most was looking forward to my teir 2 paladin set. I raided to get that set so I could smack down some evil undead. Then one day Blizzard overhauled the teir 2 sets. Suddenly the set I was looking forward to for a useful PvP boost, was 95% PvE. That was the original decline of WoW for me. Up until then I was hypnotized into not hating raiding, I put up with junior high kids who were AFK an entire raid and would treat people like pure dirt... After the set change I saw how bored I was with raiding and how much I disliked 30 of the 40 people I raided with 3+ times a week. Shortly after that I burned all my "DKP" on a decent item I wanted and I left the guild, I was sick of raiding. I switched to PvPing with a small group of friends for a good while. The final "I'm cancelling" event came when they rewrote my melee class to be a caster class. All the items I had collected were now either worthless or not-so-great. The day that patch went live, I quit. Sweeping changes are death to your game. Smaller events that cause significant change for your customers are also bad. Disclaimer: I hate WoW raiding and the shallowness of the game in general. WoW is still the best MMO to be released in the last two years in my opinion (what does that say about games released recently?!), so I am back in it for a short time.
Paladin are for healing anyway
i agree WoW is still the best mmo. gameplay wise, ui scripting, balance but the mandatory raid guild to advance in the game can be withdrawal if the player doesnt fit in
Originally posted by ZenoLoc I have to agree that it was a good article even if admitting that I agree with Dan about anything does make me feel a little ill.
Sure we didn't have a ghost writer this week?
I was a ghost for Halloween. Does that count?
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.
i agree WoW is still the best mmo. gameplay wise, ui scripting, balance but the mandatory raid guild to advance in the game can be withdrawal if the player doesnt fit in
paladin PAL-uh-din, noun: 1. A knight-errant; a distinguished champion of a medieval king or prince; as, the paladins of Charlemagne. 2. A champion of a cause.
Yeah it's a shame that the majority of MMO's tend to see a Paladin in a hybrid form of healer/lesser tank and champions of undead. I believe that Vanguard from what all I've read will be some what more of what the class should be. EQ2 caused me to quit playing my Pali at level 51 due to the combat changes that made him more into a Templar with less dps ( unsure how it is now since I haven't played EQ2 since Feb 06 ) I personally enjoyed my Shadow Knight more than the Paladin class due to the fact that I felt that the SK class was more of what I thought a Paladin should be. But having said that I enjoy playing a WOW Paladin a bit more as tank/light healer/group buffer with moderate dps. I'm still hoping for the day when a paladin can be a become a better DPS class with less healing.
Number One: DON'T MAKE HUGE CHANGES TO YOUR GAME AFTER IT'S RELEASED.
I've always seen change as a good thing but I agree huge change to a game can cripple it.
My biggest gripe with change is balance; in my opinion balance should be achieved thru alternatives rather than nerfing.
Its so common to see x game mechanic getting removed or reduced to the point of uselessness to cater to a proportion of players who will not experiment or alter their play style from a purely max/min approach.
E.g. Players wanting x class to tank, do massive damage and cast very effective spells.
Number Two: DON'T OVER PROMISE.
Im sick and tired of game companies not being able to give people a straight answer. We are working on a 3 month dev cycle. so will we get a full expansion every 3 months or just a reskin of a model? Its used car salesmen, politicians, lawyers and Game developers.
Number Three: TALK TO YOUR TESTERS
Sometimes, I agree testers provide valuable additions to the process but more and more Alpha/Beta testing has turned into a free trial. Along with that mentality it has become more and more apparent that testers are pushing for changes not based upon overall game play but their play experience.
NUMBER 4: DON'T PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET.
My personal horror story was WOW, That game featured very little real content, after running the 4 or so high level dungeons 100 or so times the game was dead to me. There was nothing to do and I sure as hell wasnt going to go back and do it all again for the hell of it.
Im now an eve player (at the 1 year mark) and its wonderful, content doesnt depend on the company creating it for you to beat. You create your own gaming experience and as a result it doesnt end. It is player dependant so if you refuse to put in, you will get nothing out.
Originally posted by Distortion0 This is actually pretty good advice. Hell, #4 is why I left a bunch of other MMOs for CoH/V.
Distortion0
Cryptic ( COH/COV) is one of the BIGGEST offenders of this articles 1st rule. COH's Issue 5/ ED "DEBACLE" is STILL a sore spot among many of those who still play.
They basicly reset the game and at the same time obliterated dozens of builds.
Zarraa Voltayre Ancient Legacy/Zero/Sum/Damage Inc
I remember the first time I had teamed up with a group where smoke got used. I could tell after one battle something was broken. After that night, I was 100% certain smoke was busted. This is a poor design/dev issue imo. This stuff shoudl be well thought out and indepently and automatically tested (when possible).
Still coh was a great game IMO. I think the nerf was appropriate but should have been avoided through reasonable design and testing.
Originally posted by oglem balance; in my opinion balance should be achieved thru alternatives rather than nerfing.
I think balance is a myth. If someone can show a math based proof of balance for a significant system like wow, eq2, and others. Aoe is a fundamental problem for balance in a math sense in current implementations of aoe.
I think bottom line, if i were a game dev, and i wanted to jack people for as much cash as possible wich I feel is most of there goal. after all they are a company, they arent doin it for free. But either way, I would definately say to add more content to lower lvl stuff. Make lower lvl stuff look cooler, make it better in anyway possible. When making new expansions, bring atleast one new element in. it will change game balance for a while till the new wears off, but it will keep people comming for more. Example bein, Im a WoW player, and they are comming out with the BC expansion, first one ever in 2 years or so mind you. But nearly all of the content that has been brought to public attention is geard toward High lvl... with the exception of the two new races. But my point is , the two new races is killer.. what would be better is two new classes. People get tired of the grind after making several 60's just to try a new race and do the same class and grind it all out again.. You wanna hook em? Give em a class, and you will have everyone and there aunt tryin to start from scratch willing to pay you several months worth of playtime to start all over from lvl 1.. I know for me, Im not stating all over just to try a new race, So in the end, I would say that was a lame attempt that seems to be fooling all. Before im flamed, there are definately some cool things in BC, but I just think they went the lazy and easy rout.
Black is to white as this "no no" list is to sony's design documentation?
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, a lot of companies are guilty of this kinda stuff... but Sony is one of the worst.
Some changes need made to games... a good example was the original eq2 berserker class... they had a skill bloodlust if i remember the name correctly... once it went off it ticked on everyone in the group every few seconds... that was okay, but each tick also generated an insane amount of agro for the berserker... making him basically impossible to pull a mob off of... this was heavily exploited. It needed fixed. Changes should be made on a 1 by 1 basis though and not broad sweeping changes to the game.
Oh yah... and the other one that sony has been doing in eq2 that just pisses me off to no end.
DON'T NERF/COMBAT UPDATE/ETC EVERYONE PRIOR TO EXPANSIONS EOF is a perfect example, AC got lowered, effects of adept3 and master1 got lowered, etc... just so they could give that all back with the expansion and not have to bother with how the new changes balanced with the older world. God i hate that. It's a ... So let me get this straight... I'm paying you to make my character weaker so I have to grind for a months to pick up AA points to make my character back to the strength I originally was and maybe marginally (1-2%) better? yah... thanks, but no thanks. /wave eq2.
Originally posted by Bakgrind Originally posted by vv33d
Paladin are for healing anyway :pi agree WoW is still the best mmo. gameplay wise, ui scripting, balancebut the mandatory raid guild to advance in the game can be withdrawal if the player doesnt fit in paladin PAL-uh-din, noun:1. A knight-errant; a distinguished champion of a medieval king or prince; as, the paladins of Charlemagne.2. A champion of a cause. Yeah it's a shame that the majority of MMO's tend to see a Paladin in a hybrid form of healer/lesser tank and champions of undead. I believe that Vanguard from what all I've read will be some what more of what the class should be. EQ2 caused me to quit playing my Pali at level 51 due to the combat changes that made him more into a Templar with less dps ( unsure how it is now since I haven't played EQ2 since Feb 06 ) I personally enjoyed my Shadow Knight more than the Paladin class due to the fact that I felt that the SK class was more of what I thought a Paladin should be. But having said that I enjoy playing a WOW Paladin a bit more as tank/light healer/group buffer with moderate dps. I'm still hoping for the day when a paladin can be a become a better DPS class with less healing.
That's because they're all essentially d&d ripoffs and that's what most people in the fantasy community associate with the word paladin.
Originally posted by HashBrick Good artical, one more thing to add though... Don't always give in to your player base when the game already has a direction, give it time for the players to adapt to the direction your game is headed. This is the exact reason why Jedi was implemented in SWG and why it was changed around how to unlock it 3-4 times(I stopped counting after I quit the CU), after that all hell broke lose and SOE lost trust in their players now the game sits to die slowly.
This is one point I wholeheartedly agree with and have posted this opinion on different forums. Developers should listen to the players to a certain extent but there's a cutoff off as to when they should stop listening. There's far too much whining and Developers shouldn't cave in to the whiners.
While I agree with Dan's points, for the most part, I think that the first one is more a matter of how it is done. Making sudden, unexplained, and sweeping changes will absolutely cause the player base to lose trust in the game. Using the "game balance" arguement as a reason for making those changes doesn't hold water, either.
However, I think that players might be accepting of changes that occurred within the context of the game's storyline. Making the changes occur over a period of time, basically tying those changes to the development of the storyline, could be one way to help players adjust their play style without making them feel like they have been targeted by the dev team.
Of course, I could be completely off base here. If the players are not interested in, or driven by, the game's story then they are not going to see how the changes are relevant, beyond making them weaker or someone else stronger.
So, what do you think? Would you be more accepting of a change in the game mechanics if those changes were explained in terms of the game's storyline? Would you prefer changes be administered over time, as the story develops, or would you prefer to just get all the "!@#! nerfing" done up front.
Changes happen, they just shouldnt be common practice as SOE makes them.
Testing and speaking to the testers? LOL. Very few companies actually take what is said in testing and look at it. Many of them say they go over it but sadly it is just not true.
Closed beta is a joke in most games. The asian titles brought to the english speaking market are there for one thing, localization. If there are bugs of any type then 90% of the time they stay in. The titles developed here can have extensive bug reports doen by players and still ignored. Mythic was a good one for this as was and still is Turbine. SOE is SOE and the only thing I can say good about them is the games are pretty.
No company will ever get it all right simply because what may be right to them or some people will not be right in the mind of others.
If WEBZEN or a company like it with good existing games from Asia is able to do the things they have done over there with changes to suit a western audience I think the bar on the issues that Dana brought up will be raised. I do not see SOE, EA, Turbine or any of the other major companies changing how they operate but Acclaim and smaller companies may get a good idea of what to do and what not to do. Just remember that this industry is fairly young and that nothing is set in stone. The big boys today can be very easily shoved out of the way by smaller companies that listen to the people who pay to play and do the little things right instead of worrying about lining their pockets.
Comments
Hey This is a great topic and awesome comments from all members!
Even though I do not post very often, I do read these Forums almost everyday and find it very enlightening to hear from other hardcore MMo..ers..
I agree wil everything everyone has said and more. It sure looks like all of you or us have tons of excellent experience in alll fields of MMOs...hopefully developers read this as well!!!
Saying that! The DO NOT CHANGE one might not always be a bad move, I played SWG when it first came out and found it soooo confusing, hard to understand, had absolutely no idea what I was doing or where I was going. It was at that time the most difficult MMO I have ever played. After about 3-4 months of try and try I left the game (I am not a Sci-Fi fan but more of a Fantasy fan) so that may have been part of it. I went back to SWG after they made all those changes ( about 5 months ago) and low and behold..it was so much easier to play....not combat style or crafting, selling..it was the entire game itself. For the Mature 43 year old me, I could understand so much more...Now before anyone says anything "like there goes a newbie" which I am not,: it made it more accessable to play for casual "older" players like myself. It was way to complicated before so they changed it and made it more "user Friendly" for peeps like me. Anyways, enough said about that...
The biggest part of any "new game" must be done in Beta phase. LISTEN TO YOUR BETA TESTERS!!! How many times have testers found major and minor flaws only to be completely ignored by Devs... Friends and myself found some big bugs in Archlord and repedetely told the Devs about it only to have the exact same bugs appear in the release of the game worlwide only to have it cause major aggravation to all those new players....Damn it Devs, we beta play/test games before they are released and try things out in advance of released dates only to have it still appear in released games....I am sure others have experienced this...
One more important item: Hire Tech support people that have actually beta tested, played and had their bloddy credit card declined on them for no reason so they FEEL for you when you run into a problem....And make sure that your Tech support peeps ACTUALLY answer in a timely fashion any ingame issues that may arise..Bad tech Support = Hard core players leave to go elsewhere....
Long post but I needed to add to this great topic..
Cheers
Rad
Its worse to actually think about doing something then actually doing it!!!
I would like to add something. If its of any use.
If you run a free to play game with the option to pay cash for items (eg shopping mall) In which many games do.
Do not make the game so you eventualy have to pay in order to have fun in the game. This will make you lose some players. I've seen this happen alot at the moment in Conqueronline.
1 of 2 developers of a new MMORPG
I would like to know what huge changes CoH made?
Did you read #4, it says not to focus only on the end game! It as the same end game as all other regular MMO, PvP and Raiding. But atleast the level is fun and the questing is non linear.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Cryptic ( COH/COV) is one of the BIGGEST offenders of this articles 1st rule.
COH's Issue 5/ ED "DEBACLE" is STILL a sore spot among many of those who still play.
They basicly reset the game and at the same time obliterated dozens of builds.
You are comparing ED nerf with SWG NGE, I think something is very wrong here to say that Cryptic is one of the biggest offenders of rule #1. You do realise that other games as been change more than that. ED was needed for the good of the game, I remember, I was able to herd over 100 mobs with my invulnerable tank, for me that did not make sense and there was no challenge. ED was just a nerf like you see in most game when something is not well balance for the fonctionality of the game, but they did not change everything in the game like SWG.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
I loved the artical and I have to say that I'm plesantly surprised that the SOE fury has not reared its ugly head on this artical..............yet.
another rule I would like to add is:
NEVER EVER put a alpha class in a MMO, leave it for single player games. Jedi was this in SWG. true everyone wants to be a jedi in a star wars game ( unless your a freak like me
) but there are times when that is VERY unwise.
Don't waste the game world is what I would add or let it become to big. Everquest 1 is a great example of this. Build up the game yes however there comes a point where the game world is so large that majority of it goes unused and as a result creates the feeling of a dead world. This generally happens I think when games become so top heavy and developers begin to fous only on end game content. You kill any type of new growth as a result I think. New players join and find dead space in areas they should be hunting. This forces people to blitz through the game to get to other players and "new content" which is blown through by hardcore players.
It's a combination of being "endgame" content happy and letting the direction of the game be decided by the vocal powergamers instead of normal players. Those that notice this however are the ones that suffer because of it while those at the top don't ever realize it. Developers being to endgame happy don't realize it I think or refuse to.
1,2,3,5 are why I left AO
1,2,3,4 are why I left Neocron.
All of them are why I left Ryzom.
1 and 4 are why I quit WoW in the end.
I have to agree that it was a good article even if admitting that I agree with Dan about anything does make me feel a little ill.
Sure we didn't have a ghost writer this week?
So on the money except for expansions going on new servers but clearly with SWG they should have rolled out changes onto new servers and let players decide which they preferred. Probably would put a strain on the devs infighting behind the scenes for the direction of the game.
Spiritglow
Although I agree with the OP for the editorial, I don't agree with some of the CoX comments.
NC Soft has done pretty well with its game IMHO, it has stayed on my hard drive since installation unlike WoW, DAoC and EQ2. I do remember when they made the enhancement changes and the backlash because of it. I had a scrapper (which were supposedly "nerfed" with it) but I just respec'd and adjusted the slotting. Continued with him no problem and he was my first 50.
The endgame in CoX is rather light, but then the nature of the game that's to be expected. Still most players don't spend all the time doing trials and task/strike forces either so they will still have that to do if they wish.
Anyhoo, just my 2 cents worth on CoX
In addition to Dan's article...
NUMBER FIVE: MEDIOCRITY BREEDS MEDIOCRITY
Carbon copying other MMOs may seem like the perfect financial move but it generally ends up costing money. Basically no originality exists to keep a gamer engaged and interested. World of Warcraft, Dark Age of Camelot, EverQuest, Asheron's Call, City of Heroes/Villains, and Second Life (to name a few) are great examples of games that spent years developing an innovative experience that for the most part keep their player base happy and addicted.
NUMBER SIX: STORY BEFORE GRAPHICS
Maybe it's me but there seems to be a growing trend among Asian MMOs of having ad-hoc like storylines that are merely in place to justify a MMO's existence. For certain games like Quake where the FPS action is THE story within complex online environments the story remains one of the most important elements. George Lucas in the video, "From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga" ironically said it best, "A special effect is a tool that carries a story forward. A special effect without a story is a boring thing." (Change "special effect" with "graphics"). In a recent tryout of Space Cowboy the feeling I got was, "why am I shooting floating jellyfish?! Is this part of the story? Where's the Space in Space Cowboy?"
NUMBER SEVEN: NEGLECT LEADS TO ATTRITION
This is an expansion of number three that goes beyond talking with testers and into conversing with the community. And not merely having CSRs answering forum postings but holding town hall meetings and the like goes a long way in showing the fan base the developers/publishers really cares for their product. For example the staff and an army of Volunteers for Second Life do an excellent job of getting involved in the community and listening to their concerns. In a recent decision Linden Labs was going to increase pricing for island real estate. The community outcry caused Linden Labs to make satisfactory compromises.
NUMBER EIGHT: COMMUNITY BEFORE STORY
Why do many play MMOs? Essentially to meet other like-minded gamers, form alliances, and share adventures. What happens when an MMO doesn't have intuitive tools for this aspect of gameplay? You end up having a MMO that doesn't really feel like a community effort and diminishes into a single player experience... something that isn't worth $15 bucks a month. This of course leads to...
NUMBER NINE: YOU CAN BE FREE AND PROFITABLE
Some companies are exploring this business model and finding a healthy modicum of success. Anarchy Online explored the concept of including billboard advertisements in-game in exchange for playing for free. While it is strange to encounter billboards advertising Fanta cola within an Alien world, the fact that this helps makes AO free is fine. Second Life offers a free account and a premium account. While both give the residents the same level of immersion only premium account holders can own land as well as receive a sizeable increase to their weekly stipends (from 50 $Lindens to 500 $Lindens). Saga of Ryzom lets visitors play free for an unlimited trial period within a huge landmass (about the size of four WOW zones). When you're ready you can upgrade to a subscription and access the mainland. Guild Wars' model is simple: buy the game retail and play online for free. And both the Maple Story client and online play is free. The trick is Nexon offers uniquely created gear that can be purchased using their proprietary NexonCash, a form of currency that can be purchased with real cash.
NUMBER TEN: LET THE PLAYERS IMPACT THE STORY AND ENVIRONMENT
To this day Asheron's Call remains one of my favorite MMOs. I felt like my actions and the actions of those on my server (Morningthaw and Solclaim) truly affected the storyline. Turbine did an unheard of thing -- and to date no other company has matched -- of delivering new story-driven content each month (many companies said attempting something like this would be prohibitively expensive). New content consisted of several small quests and usually one main storyline. The main plot would arc over a period of months before completion was achieved. And unheard of was Turbine decision to deliver varied results to each server depending on how well the community handled last month's plot objectives. Turbine was also never afraid to make shocking, albeit welcomed changes to world. An example comes in the form of a plot device during the first retail year. The story line starts off with several mysteriously large rotating Spires leaving destruction in their wake as they travelled the landscape. The next month the Spires destroy three cities; one of which, Arwic, was considered THE central trading hub for many. I remember logging in one evening and shockingly hearing reports from guildmates that Arwic is gone. I couldn't believe it until I visited and a city I visited frequently was reduced to a large crater. This is what I call impacting the story and environment! In retrospect this would be tantamount to Blizzard deciding to destroy Ironforge or Ogrimmar because the ongoing story warranted it. While the joint effort between Horde and Alliance against the Qirajian invasion was a great move in the overall WOW story, sadly this sort of gameplay does not exist in many of today's MMOs (even in a large part within WOW). And it should.
Sorry about the long reply. Dan's article sparked several issues that have irked me with today's MMOs. I feel better having gotten them off my chest. Hopefully you can agree with some of my observations.
To me, if any or 25% of developers/publishers/designers resolves to RELIGIOUSLY adhere to point No.3, it can easily lead to No.1, 2 & 4 almost painlessly. Realistically it won't get things improved up to the needed 90% mark (worse case scenario would be that players themselves who fucked up the whole deal by fussing over minor deets if any..) but imagine the time and effort saved from taking point No.3 seriously. Let's not even begin on post title launch aggravations by players which (more often than not) may stretch for years to come..
It's still is an amazing thing (yet not remotely funny anymore..) to see Shadowbane vets still spewing hell in their pissed off rants on SB's ever prevalent flaws and shit but who can blame 'em?
This is fairly common in game development. The artist to dev/designer ratio for a PC or next gen title can be 10 to 1 at times (I am a dev so I am speaking from that angle). The reason is that all of the newer games require lots of art that is not easy to generate so you end up with an army of artists.
I do occasionally run into artists that feel they should design the game since they determine the look (which I believe is a very wrong approach). However, in most cases designers are responsible for the primary design of the game. Now whether or not these are good designers is another story (ie SWG).
I do agree on all the points mentioned for new MMO's. The biggest problem is scope. Many games try to do too much and leave the basics half finished (like decent terrain collision or a properly westernized control scheme when shipped in the US). If the core is solid you can always grow the game later (WoW and CoH are both testaments to this approach).
i agree WoW is still the best mmo. gameplay wise, ui scripting, balance
but the mandatory raid guild to advance in the game can be withdrawal if the player doesnt fit in
I was a ghost for Halloween. Does that count?
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.
i agree WoW is still the best mmo. gameplay wise, ui scripting, balance
but the mandatory raid guild to advance in the game can be withdrawal if the player doesnt fit in
paladin PAL-uh-din, noun:
1. A knight-errant; a distinguished champion of a medieval king or prince; as, the paladins of Charlemagne.
2. A champion of a cause.
Yeah it's a shame that the majority of MMO's tend to see a Paladin in a hybrid form of healer/lesser tank and champions of undead. I believe that Vanguard from what all I've read will be some what more of what the class should be. EQ2 caused me to quit playing my Pali at level 51 due to the combat changes that made him more into a Templar with less dps ( unsure how it is now since I haven't played EQ2 since Feb 06 ) I personally enjoyed my Shadow Knight more than the Paladin class due to the fact that I felt that the SK class was more of what I thought a Paladin should be. But having said that I enjoy playing a WOW Paladin a bit more as tank/light healer/group buffer with moderate dps. I'm still hoping for the day when a paladin can be a become a better DPS class with less healing.
Hi all,
Number One: DON'T MAKE HUGE CHANGES TO YOUR
GAME AFTER IT'S RELEASED.
I've always seen change as a good thing but I agree huge change to a game can
cripple it.
My biggest gripe with change is balance; in
my opinion balance should be achieved thru alternatives rather than nerfing.
Its so common to see x game mechanic
getting removed or reduced to the point of uselessness to cater to a proportion
of players who will not experiment or alter their play style from a purely
max/min approach.
E.g. Players wanting x class to tank, do massive damage
and cast very effective spells.
Number Two: DON'T OVER PROMISE.
Im sick and tired of game companies not
being able to give people a straight answer. We are working on a 3 month dev
cycle. so will we get a full expansion every 3 months or just a reskin of a
model? Its used car salesmen, politicians, lawyers and Game developers.
Number Three: TALK TO YOUR TESTERS
Sometimes, I agree testers provide valuable additions to the process but more
and more Alpha/Beta testing has turned into a free trial. Along with that
mentality it has become more and more apparent that testers are pushing for
changes not based upon overall game play but their play experience.
NUMBER 4: DON'T PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET.
My personal horror story was WOW, That game
featured very little real content, after running the 4 or so high level
dungeons 100 or so times the game was dead to me. There was nothing to do and I
sure as hell wasnt going to go back and do it all again for the hell of it.
Im now an eve player (at the 1 year mark)
and its wonderful, content doesnt depend on the company creating it for you to
beat. You create your own gaming experience and as a result it doesnt end. It is
player dependant so if you refuse to put in, you will get nothing out.
,
Oglem
Cryptic ( COH/COV) is one of the BIGGEST offenders of this articles 1st rule.
COH's Issue 5/ ED "DEBACLE" is STILL a sore spot among many of those who still play.
They basicly reset the game and at the same time obliterated dozens of builds.
Zarraa Voltayre
Ancient Legacy/Zero/Sum/Damage Inc
I remember the first time I had teamed up with a group where smoke got used. I could tell after one battle something was broken. After that night, I was 100% certain smoke was busted. This is a poor design/dev issue imo. This stuff shoudl be well thought out and indepently and automatically tested (when possible).
Still coh was a great game IMO. I think the nerf was appropriate but should have been avoided through reasonable design and testing.
Excellent advice, but I can sum it up in 1 sentance:
"Don't be a bunch of toolbags."
Sony is probably guilty of more of these than any other company in existance.
SWG: 1,1,2,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,4
EQ2: 1(LU13),1(EOF),2,3,4,4,4,4
EQ1: 3,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Wait... could this be...
Black is to white as this "no no" list is to sony's design documentation?
EDIT:
Don't get me wrong, a lot of companies are guilty of this kinda stuff... but Sony is one of the worst.
Some changes need made to games... a good example was the original eq2 berserker class... they had a skill bloodlust if i remember the name correctly... once it went off it ticked on everyone in the group every few seconds... that was okay, but each tick also generated an insane amount of agro for the berserker... making him basically impossible to pull a mob off of... this was heavily exploited. It needed fixed. Changes should be made on a 1 by 1 basis though and not broad sweeping changes to the game.
Oh yah... and the other one that sony has been doing in eq2 that just pisses me off to no end.
DON'T NERF/COMBAT UPDATE/ETC EVERYONE PRIOR TO EXPANSIONS
EOF is a perfect example, AC got lowered, effects of adept3 and master1 got lowered, etc... just so they could give that all back with the expansion and not have to bother with how the new changes balanced with the older world. God i hate that. It's a ... So let me get this straight... I'm paying you to make my character weaker so I have to grind for a months to pick up AA points to make my character back to the strength I originally was and maybe marginally (1-2%) better? yah... thanks, but no thanks. /wave eq2.
Bleh.
Shadus
paladin PAL-uh-din, noun:1. A knight-errant; a distinguished champion of a medieval king or prince; as, the paladins of Charlemagne.2. A champion of a cause.
Yeah it's a shame that the majority of MMO's tend to see a Paladin in a hybrid form of healer/lesser tank and champions of undead. I believe that Vanguard from what all I've read will be some what more of what the class should be. EQ2 caused me to quit playing my Pali at level 51 due to the combat changes that made him more into a Templar with less dps ( unsure how it is now since I haven't played EQ2 since Feb 06 ) I personally enjoyed my Shadow Knight more than the Paladin class due to the fact that I felt that the SK class was more of what I thought a Paladin should be. But having said that I enjoy playing a WOW Paladin a bit more as tank/light healer/group buffer with moderate dps. I'm still hoping for the day when a paladin can be a become a better DPS class with less healing.
That's because they're all essentially d&d ripoffs and that's what most people in the fantasy community associate with the word paladin.
Shadus
While I agree with Dan's points, for the most part, I think that the first one is more a matter of how it is done. Making sudden, unexplained, and sweeping changes will absolutely cause the player base to lose trust in the game. Using the "game balance" arguement as a reason for making those changes doesn't hold water, either.
However, I think that players might be accepting of changes that occurred within the context of the game's storyline. Making the changes occur over a period of time, basically tying those changes to the development of the storyline, could be one way to help players adjust their play style without making them feel like they have been targeted by the dev team.
Of course, I could be completely off base here. If the players are not interested in, or driven by, the game's story then they are not going to see how the changes are relevant, beyond making them weaker or someone else stronger.
So, what do you think? Would you be more accepting of a change in the game mechanics if those changes were explained in terms of the game's storyline? Would you prefer changes be administered over time, as the story develops, or would you prefer to just get all the "!@#! nerfing" done up front.
Testing and speaking to the testers? LOL. Very few companies actually take what is said in testing and look at it. Many of them say they go over it but sadly it is just not true.
Closed beta is a joke in most games. The asian titles brought to the english speaking market are there for one thing, localization. If there are bugs of any type then 90% of the time they stay in. The titles developed here can have extensive bug reports doen by players and still ignored. Mythic was a good one for this as was and still is Turbine. SOE is SOE and the only thing I can say good about them is the games are pretty.
No company will ever get it all right simply because what may be right to them or some people will not be right in the mind of others.
If WEBZEN or a company like it with good existing games from Asia is able to do the things they have done over there with changes to suit a western audience I think the bar on the issues that Dana brought up will be raised. I do not see SOE, EA, Turbine or any of the other major companies changing how they operate but Acclaim and smaller companies may get a good idea of what to do and what not to do. Just remember that this industry is fairly young and that nothing is set in stone. The big boys today can be very easily shoved out of the way by smaller companies that listen to the people who pay to play and do the little things right instead of worrying about lining their pockets.