Originally posted by Distortion0 This is actually pretty good advice. Hell, #4 is why I left a bunch of other MMOs for CoH/V.
Yeah, #4 was excellent. CoH/V definitely has some good content but there hasn't been any end game content added since Issue 1 (which extended level cap to 50). And no, I'm not counting the arena/pvp. And WoW on the other extreme has a long history of end-game additions but not so much for the sub 60's. If the devs could only find some middle ground....
#1 was why i quit playing SWG #2 was why i didnt play Dark and Light #3 is why i'm going to play Vanguard (they listen) #4 is why i'm going to be happy to quit WoW (when Vanguard comes out)
cheers
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion
Very good advice in the article and across this thread. We can only hope that some developers out there take the time to read it.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
This is quite possibly the best, and most needed editorial I have read on here in my roughly one year on the site. This is not a slap at other good editorials, but rather an appreciation for some of my own pet peeves about the mmo genre. These very issues (cough cough especially the first) have me on the precipice of giving up on the entire genre. Frankly, ive become bored with everything gaming in the past year and cant seem to find my fix in the MMO or single player market.
Thanks for a needed article......
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
This article states the obvious. Which is good. In this day and age of MMORPGs, you would think the developers would have a good grasp on what it takes to make a good staying MMO. However, as you look around at all the titles that have come and gone... and those that are currently on the market you have to ask yourself... are developers really paying any attention to what works and what doesn't?
2 Biggest points in that article.. the NGE and keeping in touch with your community. In my eyes, one company has no idea what the player wants, and sees more of how they see the game going. And that is SOE. Their MMOs are mediocre at best. I am not saying they are horrible, however, they are not outstanding either. Hell, I like EQ 2, however, lets look at their roster. SWG (was actually unique and fun before NGE), Matrix Online (uh.... yeaa... poor design plagues this game, I won't go into specifics, if you played it.. you will know), Planetside (was fun, for a short while... and that was that), EQ2 (I like this game, but frustration factor on PvP server in regards to player lvl and pvp balance is too much to bear).
My biggest gripe with MMOs is... sometimes I get the feeling that developers either are blinded by their "vision" and can't see what is feesible. To emphasize my point, I want to discuss what I touched on with EQ 2. I understand what I am going to talk about does not affect all servers, as it only pertains to the PvP ruleset. But that was my reason for playing the game, so here goes.
If any of you have played on the PvP servers. As you begin to clash with players from the opposite alignment ( Good vs Evil ) you will notice that, if you do encounter a player a few levels higher than yourself, it is exceptionally difficult to kill them. For instance, I was dungeon crawling with a full group of players in their mid 20s only to run into a player that was low 30s and alone. This player proceeded to beat the ever living snot out of the entire group taking minimal damage per hit. Now, we did defeat him in the end, however, barely. It was a PUG and I was happy, cause we won the battle and the group didn't break up.... let the XP'ing continue! Well, when the enemy returned he brought a single friend with him that was also of his level. And bam, our group was done for. My question to the dev's in this case would be, "Is it intended for player levels to have such a huge impact on PvP?" I say this because I also remember a time early after the servers were launched when I was playing my 54 bruiser... and a low level 60 enemy rolled up on my group of mid 50s. Not a single blow was landed on the higher level player due to his chances to parry/block and our cons to him.
This is a HUGE problem for PvP... yet it goes ignored. There has been one company in my history of MMO playing that has shown they have what it takes to adapt to the changes and roll with what they got. And my hat goes off to Mythic. With what they learned with their first MMO I expect to see none of the problems mentioned in the article in their second.
I agree with almost the entire blog, however, I have something of a beef with the first item. As a player of the game Eve Online for the past year, I've heard the horror stories of the early days of Eve (and some of the glory stories as well) and all the changes that have made the Eve experience much better.
In addition, as a late adopter of WoW (only been playing for a few months), I cringe when I read what some of the people endured in the "early days" of the game.
I'm not sure what the author would define as sweeping changes, but both those MMO's have come a looooong way from their first incarnations, some of those changes good, some bad, some just different.
While the SWG debacle is a shining example of a game company royally screwing a loyal fan base, major changes can have a positive impact on a game and can attract more subscribers (which sometimes means better development because the company has more money, as in the case of Eve).
One of my favorite parts of the MMO experience is that the game changes, evolves even, as players and developers alike get a better sense of the world they're a part of.
That issue aside, kudos on hitting some major pains in MMO's. I've only played two games extensively, but there's a litterful of free trials I've attempted that never made it past the first play. Sadly, many MMO's just suck...
I find it kind of sad that developers, when confronted with problems specifically player created issues like abuse of a certain skill or if a certain area were to be controllable then it would dramatically change things always tend to cop out. They hardly ever just "roll" with things and when they do go wrong they come in with the almighty nerf bat, I think a few devs always as taking on the aforementioned suggestions could learn a lot from guildwars setup, instead of completely nerfing something or other, they make little changes and add new things and let the players cope with it.
Everytime I see this sort of thing happening it lessens the immersion, it labels the devs (i find) incompetent at maintaining a fantasy world without going in with cackhanded out of character actions and changing everything. Granted, some behemoths like WoW would just require more than the devs could cope with if they carried on with the grind / treadmill / tier + pvp rubbish but. . . Is it any fun, Is there any point, other than filling their wallets so they can add more spectacular grinds which bore you anyway ? Imagine if, when you logged in instead of saying "Oh, nifty, I like 12456 other players before me have now conquered molten core and have the dragon slaying toothpick of +20 agility, yay." you could really do something ? Perhaps it just goes against the whole design idea but I think player created content and actions are a hell of a lot more interesting than "scripted" quests, which in most cases you repeat on other characters and don't really enjoy in the first place.
You have to realise, up until now we've never had such a capacity to accomplish these things, multiplayer, online, ai and other important fields in today's gaming have seen huge advancements whilst things like story and design have gone into reverse. . . Maybe it's just a pipedream but I don't see why it should be so difficult, code a system with which you can change the world (dramatically) without taking it offline, sure it would be different but isn't that what people want ?
I mean, seriously. . . Your the developers, think of something !
Originally posted by kxmodeIn addition to Dan's article...NUMBER FIVE: MEDIOCRITY BREEDS MEDIOCRITYNUMBER SIX: STORY BEFORE GRAPHICSNUMBER SEVEN: NEGLECT LEADS TO ATTRITIONNUMBER EIGHT: COMMUNITY BEFORE STORYNUMBER NINE: YOU CAN BE FREE AND PROFITABLENUMBER TEN: LET THE PLAYERS IMPACT THE STORY AND ENVIRONMENT
The only thing that matters in these games is community. If you do anything that pisses the MMO community off, you're game will not be a success. It won't matter if you fix all the bugs, introduce all kinds of new features, or cure cancer. If my friends aren't playing your game, I'm not going to. Period.
Originally posted by kxmode NUMBER TEN: LET THE PLAYERS IMPACT THE STORY AND ENVIRONMENTTo this day Asheron's Call remains one of my favorite MMOs. I felt like my actions and the actions of those on my server (Morningthaw and Solclaim) truly affected the storyline. Turbine did an unheard of thing -- and to date no other company has matched -- of delivering new story-driven content each month (many companies said attempting something like this would be prohibitively expensive). New content consisted of several small quests and usually one main storyline. The main plot would arc over a period of months before completion was achieved. And unheard of was Turbine decision to deliver varied results to each server depending on how well the community handled last month's plot objectives. Turbine was also never afraid to make shocking, albeit welcomed changes to world. An example comes in the form of a plot device during the first retail year. The story line starts off with several mysteriously large rotating Spires leaving destruction in their wake as they travelled the landscape. The next month the Spires destroy three cities; one of which, Arwic, was considered THE central trading hub for many. I remember logging in one evening and shockingly hearing reports from guildmates that Arwic is gone. I couldn't believe it until I visited and a city I visited frequently was reduced to a large crater. This is what I call impacting the story and environment! In retrospect this would be tantamount to Blizzard deciding to destroy Ironforge or Ogrimmar because the ongoing story warranted it. While the joint effort between Horde and Alliance against the Qirajian invasion was a great move in the overall WOW story, sadly this sort of gameplay does not exist in many of today's MMOs (even in a large part within WOW). And it should.Sorry about the long reply. Dan's article sparked several issues that have irked me with today's MMOs. I feel better having gotten them off my chest. Hopefully you can agree with some of my observations.
Creating a dynamic world in MMO is what I would love to see as well. I've even started toying with the idea of an episodic persistent world system. Create a world with maps etc etc. release it with a short story line. maybe 3 months worth to finish he primary story line. Release a new episode every 3 months. similar to guild wars but not.
Now let the story design be part user driven, part user defined and part written by writer/designer
The story should affect the world. in every way possible. Change of landscape, change of people and places. let users make choices in the story. ask a questions or give a choice of action see what the majority of that choice was over a week and affect the storyline accordingly. Yes this means somebody has to be active in the story while the system is playing, but that will also make it more real.
A lot of MMO dev's say they don't have the time. Well here is a suggestion. Release tools to build content for your game. create a sandbox area for testers, let them create a new quest on existing land, create new enemies etc etc. when they "test" the map it uploads to the server. let the server test for the basic needs of a completed quest etc tec and submit it for a QA test. If the submission is up to scratch add it to the game and credit the author.
people want to feel like the are part of the world and the game. not just visiting.
Originally posted by bainster Originally posted by kxmode NUMBER TEN: LET THE PLAYERS IMPACT THE STORY AND ENVIRONMENTTo this day Asheron's Call remains one of my favorite MMOs. I felt like my actions and the actions of those on my server (Morningthaw and Solclaim) truly affected the storyline. Turbine did an unheard of thing -- and to date no other company has matched -- of delivering new story-driven content each month (many companies said attempting something like this would be prohibitively expensive). New content consisted of several small quests and usually one main storyline. The main plot would arc over a period of months before completion was achieved. And unheard of was Turbine decision to deliver varied results to each server depending on how well the community handled last month's plot objectives. Turbine was also never afraid to make shocking, albeit welcomed changes to world. An example comes in the form of a plot device during the first retail year. The story line starts off with several mysteriously large rotating Spires leaving destruction in their wake as they travelled the landscape. The next month the Spires destroy three cities; one of which, Arwic, was considered THE central trading hub for many. I remember logging in one evening and shockingly hearing reports from guildmates that Arwic is gone. I couldn't believe it until I visited and a city I visited frequently was reduced to a large crater. This is what I call impacting the story and environment! In retrospect this would be tantamount to Blizzard deciding to destroy Ironforge or Ogrimmar because the ongoing story warranted it. While the joint effort between Horde and Alliance against the Qirajian invasion was a great move in the overall WOW story, sadly this sort of gameplay does not exist in many of today's MMOs (even in a large part within WOW). And it should.Sorry about the long reply. Dan's article sparked several issues that have irked me with today's MMOs. I feel better having gotten them off my chest. Hopefully you can agree with some of my observations.
Creating a dynamic world in MMO is what I would love to see as well. I've even started toying with the idea of an episodic persistent world system. Create a world with maps etc etc. release it with a short story line. maybe 3 months worth to finish he primary story line. Release a new episode every 3 months. similar to guild wars but not.
Now let the story design be part user driven, part user defined and part written by writer/designer
The story should affect the world. in every way possible. Change of landscape, change of people and places. let users make choices in the story. ask a questions or give a choice of action see what the majority of that choice was over a week and affect the storyline accordingly. Yes this means somebody has to be active in the story while the system is playing, but that will also make it more real.
A lot of MMO dev's say they don't have the time. Well here is a suggestion. Release tools to build content for your game. create a sandbox area for testers, let them create a new quest on existing land, create new enemies etc etc. when they "test" the map it uploads to the server. let the server test for the basic needs of a completed quest etc tec and submit it for a QA test. If the submission is up to scratch add it to the game and credit the author.
people want to feel like the are part of the world and the game. not just visiting.
H
One day someone will make moddable mmorpgs with player GM's. Like NWN as a mmorpg. Such games may well have shortened dev times because players would be free to make content. I think such a mmorpg would make the old ones pretty much obselete. Freeform play and content in a mmorpg, wow.
Comments
And WoW on the other extreme has a long history of end-game additions but not so much for the sub 60's. If the devs could only find some middle ground....
#1 was why i quit playing SWG
#2 was why i didnt play Dark and Light
#3 is why i'm going to play Vanguard (they listen)
#4 is why i'm going to be happy to quit WoW (when Vanguard comes out)
cheers
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa
Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate
Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion
Very good advice in the article and across this thread. We can only hope that some developers out there take the time to read it.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
This is quite possibly the best, and most needed editorial I have read on here in my roughly one year on the site. This is not a slap at other good editorials, but rather an appreciation for some of my own pet peeves about the mmo genre. These very issues (cough cough especially the first) have me on the precipice of giving up on the entire genre. Frankly, ive become bored with everything gaming in the past year and cant seem to find my fix in the MMO or single player market.
Thanks for a needed article......
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
This article states the obvious. Which is good. In this day and age of MMORPGs, you would think the developers would have a good grasp on what it takes to make a good staying MMO. However, as you look around at all the titles that have come and gone... and those that are currently on the market you have to ask yourself... are developers really paying any attention to what works and what doesn't?
2 Biggest points in that article.. the NGE and keeping in touch with your community. In my eyes, one company has no idea what the player wants, and sees more of how they see the game going. And that is SOE. Their MMOs are mediocre at best. I am not saying they are horrible, however, they are not outstanding either. Hell, I like EQ 2, however, lets look at their roster. SWG (was actually unique and fun before NGE), Matrix Online (uh.... yeaa... poor design plagues this game, I won't go into specifics, if you played it.. you will know), Planetside (was fun, for a short while... and that was that), EQ2 (I like this game, but frustration factor on PvP server in regards to player lvl and pvp balance is too much to bear).
My biggest gripe with MMOs is... sometimes I get the feeling that developers either are blinded by their "vision" and can't see what is feesible. To emphasize my point, I want to discuss what I touched on with EQ 2. I understand what I am going to talk about does not affect all servers, as it only pertains to the PvP ruleset. But that was my reason for playing the game, so here goes.
If any of you have played on the PvP servers. As you begin to clash with players from the opposite alignment ( Good vs Evil ) you will notice that, if you do encounter a player a few levels higher than yourself, it is exceptionally difficult to kill them. For instance, I was dungeon crawling with a full group of players in their mid 20s only to run into a player that was low 30s and alone. This player proceeded to beat the ever living snot out of the entire group taking minimal damage per hit. Now, we did defeat him in the end, however, barely. It was a PUG and I was happy, cause we won the battle and the group didn't break up.... let the XP'ing continue! Well, when the enemy returned he brought a single friend with him that was also of his level. And bam, our group was done for. My question to the dev's in this case would be, "Is it intended for player levels to have such a huge impact on PvP?" I say this because I also remember a time early after the servers were launched when I was playing my 54 bruiser... and a low level 60 enemy rolled up on my group of mid 50s. Not a single blow was landed on the higher level player due to his chances to parry/block and our cons to him.
This is a HUGE problem for PvP... yet it goes ignored. There has been one company in my history of MMO playing that has shown they have what it takes to adapt to the changes and roll with what they got. And my hat goes off to Mythic. With what they learned with their first MMO I expect to see none of the problems mentioned in the article in their second.
beef with the first item. As a player of the game Eve Online for
the past year, I've heard the horror stories of the early days of Eve
(and some of the glory stories as well) and all the changes that have
made the Eve experience much better.
In addition, as a late adopter of WoW (only been playing for a few
months), I cringe when I read what some of the people endured in the
"early days" of the game.
I'm not sure what the author would
define as sweeping changes, but both those MMO's have come a looooong
way from their first incarnations, some of those changes good, some
bad, some just different.
While the SWG debacle is a shining
example of a game company royally screwing a loyal fan base, major
changes can have a positive impact on a game and can attract more
subscribers (which sometimes means better development because the
company has more money, as in the case of Eve).
One of my
favorite parts of the MMO experience is that the game changes, evolves
even, as players and developers alike get a better sense of the world
they're a part of.
That issue aside, kudos on hitting some
major pains in MMO's. I've only played two games extensively, but
there's a litterful of free trials I've attempted that never made it
past the first play. Sadly, many MMO's just suck...
Everytime I see this sort of thing happening it lessens the immersion, it labels the devs (i find) incompetent at maintaining a fantasy world without going in with cackhanded out of character actions and changing everything.
Granted, some behemoths like WoW would just require more than the devs could cope with if they carried on with the grind / treadmill / tier + pvp rubbish but. . . Is it any fun, Is there any point, other than filling their wallets so they can add more spectacular grinds which bore you anyway ?
Imagine if, when you logged in instead of saying "Oh, nifty, I like 12456 other players before me have now conquered molten core and have the dragon slaying toothpick of +20 agility, yay." you could really do something ?
Perhaps it just goes against the whole design idea but I think player created content and actions are a hell of a lot more interesting than "scripted" quests, which in most cases you repeat on other characters and don't really enjoy in the first place.
You have to realise, up until now we've never had such a capacity to accomplish these things, multiplayer, online, ai and other important fields in today's gaming have seen huge advancements whilst things like story and design have gone into reverse. . .
Maybe it's just a pipedream but I don't see why it should be so difficult, code a system with which you can change the world (dramatically) without taking it offline, sure it would be different but isn't that what people want ?
I mean, seriously. . . Your the developers, think of something !
I like your list better than Dan's.
blank
Creating a dynamic world in MMO is what
I would love to see as well. I've even started toying with the idea
of an episodic persistent world system. Create a world with maps etc
etc. release it with a short story line. maybe 3 months worth to
finish he primary story line. Release a new episode every 3 months.
similar to guild wars but not.
Now let the story design be
part user driven, part user defined and part written by
writer/designer
The story should affect the world. in every
way possible. Change of landscape, change of people and places. let
users make choices in the story. ask a questions or give a choice of
action see what the majority of that choice was over a week and
affect the storyline accordingly. Yes this means somebody has to be
active in the story while the system is playing, but that will also
make it more real.
A lot of MMO dev's say they don't have the
time. Well here is a suggestion. Release tools to build content for
your game. create a sandbox area for testers, let them create a new
quest on existing land, create new enemies etc etc. when they "test"
the map it uploads to the server. let the server test for the basic
needs of a completed quest etc tec and submit it for a QA test. If
the submission is up to scratch add it to the game and credit the
author.
people want to feel like the are part of the world
and the game. not just visiting.
H
--
bain
http://foad.za.net
Creating a dynamic world in MMO is what I would love to see as well. I've even started toying with the idea of an episodic persistent world system. Create a world with maps etc etc. release it with a short story line. maybe 3 months worth to finish he primary story line. Release a new episode every 3 months. similar to guild wars but not.
Now let the story design be part user driven, part user defined and part written by writer/designer
The story should affect the world. in every way possible. Change of landscape, change of people and places. let users make choices in the story. ask a questions or give a choice of action see what the majority of that choice was over a week and affect the storyline accordingly. Yes this means somebody has to be active in the story while the system is playing, but that will also make it more real.
A lot of MMO dev's say they don't have the time. Well here is a suggestion. Release tools to build content for your game. create a sandbox area for testers, let them create a new quest on existing land, create new enemies etc etc. when they "test" the map it uploads to the server. let the server test for the basic needs of a completed quest etc tec and submit it for a QA test. If the submission is up to scratch add it to the game and credit the author.
people want to feel like the are part of the world and the game. not just visiting.
H
One day someone will make moddable mmorpgs with player GM's. Like NWN as a mmorpg. Such games may well have shortened dev times because players would be free to make content. I think such a mmorpg would make the old ones pretty much obselete. Freeform play and content in a mmorpg, wow.
Spiritglow