Originally posted by dilatedmind its funny some of you bring up real life... Maybe it was last week on Fox News, Bill O'Reilly ripped apart gamers. I'm not going to lie to you, gaming really does amount to wasting your life. Of course, so does watching most TV programs, and between the two, I'm certain most everyone wastes some of their life. I'm not sure how old some of you are... but I regret spending so much time playing videogames growing up.
Anyway, I'm not a programmer, so I can't say how difficult a game like this would be to code. Most of these ideas have already been realized in other games though, so I can't imagine the difficulty being in the coding. I would expect the difficulty is tying all these complex ideas together, while keeping things simple enough to be enjoyable. If we're going to be investing our time in games like this, we should expect to get something out of it, more then just a higher level and meaningless gear. I think diplomacy is especially lacking in mmorpgs. There are too many rules that prevent players from having influence over one another. They barely rely on each other, the most casual relationships and grouping will do, most items are provided as loot or sold by npcs, and security is provided by town guards or PK restrictions. There is also the necessity of balance between individual achievement, and teamwork. A tale in the desert is a great example of teamwork, while you may look at diablo ii as a perfect example of individual achievement. The biggest setback for a game like the one I'd like to play, is the reliance on its players. If you log onto flyff, it doesn't matter if your the only person on at the time, or if your surrounded by a bunch off assholes, the game will go on. A real mmorpg should be nothing more then a set of rules and an enviroment to role play in. The risk is that it would rely on the virtues of its players to lead and shape the world in such a way that it is enjoyable to be a part of.
As a not-so-advanced-programmer i say: "Bingo". Thats why most games have just a few good sides and never expertly cover everything. Cant be done untill we unlock another 10-20% of our brain power
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Cant be done untill we unlock another 10-20% of our brain power
Or get rid of 10-20% of management Seriously, most software projects suck because they are over-managed; we once spent a whole year working with a team of 5 guys on a project I could have done alone in 2 weeks without the management overhead. I thought that was pretty good but I have since heard MUCH worse stories from friends.
I would play this game. Leveling treadmills and grinding aspects are quite possibility the worst ideas ever manifested in the MMORPG genre. Ultima Online was truly the only MMO I've ever enjoyed fully without feeling obligated to do certain things such as reaching the next level, grinding for phat lewt, or farming cash. I played the game how I wanted with little restriction in doing so and had plenty of fun doing it at the same time.
However I think players should have a choice as to how they want to play their game. I hate the idea of forcing players to do certain things in a game, such as forcing them to play in an open PVP environment. If they want to, then by all means let them. But I think they should have a choice upon character creation or server selection towards what kind of gameplay they want to lean more towards.
I agree completely with everything you said though. We can only pray and hope an Ultima Online 2.0 will come out. But then again, EA will probably just cancel that project as well.
--- Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is. --- Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park --- If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you: www.ProgressQuest.com
the original Swg that was the only RPG couse you could be anything you wanted whenever you wanted.
I played over 2 years I had a clan, shop, I was a ranger, beast master, pistolleer, doc etc etc. Everything had fun and GCW was perfect, after JTL space was awesome.
I really liked that. I liked macros too. The game was playable 24 hours a day.
Theres nothing on market ( maybe RV but it has major problems ) which can give me that freedom of choice.
Sorry but I just have to say this: I wanted to make Wurm because i felt the same way like you do Dilatedmind. And it's up and running. I am working on making fighting more interactive right now.
You sound like a Wurm fanboi, hopefully that's just coincidence. You're welcome to check it out.
wow ive been a reader here on mmorpg.com for a long time and i have never, not once responded to a topic generally because they are always consumed with blatter from 5 year olds flaming other people, who they deem retarded because they thought they were elite at tetris online or something...but this topic, other then the SWG CU emu has caught my eye & i feel i need to say something for this maybe the one time i actually put my 2 cents in.
Well for starters, for all of you who keep flaming people saying, "wow your retarded to want so much stuff, because there is a REAL LIFE, or REAL LIFE this and bash on someone because of REAL LIFE that" and try and make it sound like you live some sort of glamerous life that you have no time for video games, just stop. because if your replying to this topic on a forum at about 11:37 pm, 2:17 am, 5:16 am so on and so on...i'd hate to break it to ya, but you dont have much of a life or much of a important one, if your on here playing flame wars with the little kids here. so lets face it, EVERYONE who posts here is obviously addicted or has been addicted to some online game at one point or another wether it being uo, swg, eq, crackwhoreonline, w/e floated your boat, because none of us here are elite posters at homedepot.com....as i hear its quite boring there.
We all play these games for our own reasons, wether because it helps to relieve stress, or that sea donkey you live with you call a wife is nagging you about the dishs & you feel you gotta get away, or maybe its just plain fun, either way, we're all on here or there, and seem to find it important enough to get back on these forums and talk smack to just about anyone who sounds care bear or retarded to try and show we are just about the most glamerous level 46 nerd in the world...because we are all nerds.
To the pks...because we are all flamboyantly audacious, and we ALL [pvp'rs, pks] believe we are the supreme beings and are better then everyone...stop. we need the care bears. because if they just suddenly dissappeared, who else of a player will you find in the middle of the woods in UO chopping firewood ? who else are you gonna give a tinker trapped box while telling them theres rare items inside...face it. being uo, wow, eq, swg, homedepotadventuresonline, we need care bears, because if we didnt have any, then we'd just be playing with just the 6 of us...
to the care bears..you need hard core pvp'rs. because without us, you would never figure out the core stradegies, you'd still be looking in that old stradegy guide trying to power level yourself to level 9 so you can get that awesome forest bow of shame. and yes...sad to say, you also need pks. because if you didnt have them, once you got your shiny new rusty armor, and there was no way to loose it, that is just 1 part of the game you cant do again...because there is no way for you to "un-master it" or loose it. there will be always be the exciting rush of replanning and recamping to acquire that 1 of a kind item again.
And why pay attention to what tv reporters say? if i am not mistaken..arent they the loosers who bash on us for playing video games, and are also the people who go to cheese parties & report on stuff they saw "someone else" doing something so utterly wild and exciting, and just felt they need'd to tell the WORLD about it...key word "SAW SOMEONE ELSE DOING SOMETHING" ok key words...tv reporters....are LOOSERS.."so its gonna be like..cloudy...and wet...and um...HOLY MARY DID YOU SEE THAT GUY?! HE JUST MELEE ATTACKED MY CAMERA MAN IN THE FACE! FREAKIN WILD MAN! MARY, I HOPE YOUR SEEING THIS"
In essence, its us [Gamers] vs just about anyone else. ESPECIALLY the mmo rpg players..we all take pride in what our charecter looks like, because we all know, FASHION is quite possible the biggest thing in the mmo world. wether its some fancy looking armor, or your that crazy f*cin pk guy runnin around in a sports bra, we all remember what we someone else looked like. We all take pride in our game possessions, we ALL take pride in our knowledge of what makes that game go round...and sorry to say, that kind of knowledge doesnt happen with someone playing 30 minutes a day, a hour a day, 2 hours a day...your there...hours on end just like the rest of us. so unless your life is seriously revolved on testing keyboard keys for odd sounds, or making sure monitors dont change random colors after 4 hours of use...i think your obviously a gamer. i know..HOLY SHIZZLES YOUR INFECTED. quick run outside and get a life...or make it easy on yourself and go bid on one on ebay.
to the moderator of this post, i am like you and many others, a ultima online guy. i have played EVERYTHING to date, and can not find anything like it. there are 3 types of people. someone who liked UO, someone who HATED UO, or someone who has HEARD of UO. and we all come to the conclussion that is unlike anything you will ever play.
im not saying UO is the best thing out there, its just very different. its captivating because it does what a MMO should be doing, simulating LIFE. thats what made UO fun. the fact you can just log online and literally watch life just happen around you. people get up to make weapons, armor, peolpe who beg for money in the streets. fisherman go out to sea and get fish, or people who offer haha poisoned goods to others, just to watch them suffer. "quick here, DRINK THIS, AH S*** MAN, I FEEL SICK, WHAT YOU PUT IN THIS?! oh you know cider, apple flavoring, man bear pig poison..you know that kinda stuff..have fun choking"
no other game in existence to date can claim to give you this kind of charecter creation and play freedom...NOTHING.freedom does though comes with its cost. its un-controllable. pks and such had nothing to fear upon death except loose a few items, and in some rare occassions a small stat hit...shadowbane just came to early. lineage [2] was only for the person who could play 37 1/2 hours a day to power level all the way to 75, wow doesnt have enough content & well then theres EQ.. you either like it or...well most likely hate it.
SWG was probably the only other game, well RPG type i liked other then UO. because it had alot of freedom..controlled freedom, but it felt good. alot of charecter involvement, and A LOAD of potential. LEVEL based games require way to much grinding, and you only really get a sense of accomplishment after you reached those peak levels...but what happens when you max out? theres not much more to experience? its kinda like playing in a big box. eventually you make your to the top of the box, and then you kinda just drift to the sides of the wall with everyone else once they have reached the top also..eventually, the box becomes to full...and yea..people start jumping out...to other crappy boxes
im not saying they are bad, just to different then what a MMO game should be. i dont think a video game should take us away for 5 6 7 8 9 10 hours just to get to level 10, because yes, for those of us in the real world, there is stuff to be done. open skill based games i have noticed generally ARE much larger, WITH much more playable content. so someone who does play like a hour or 2 hours, can easily catch up to the others a day or 2 away, or can plan it out, so they can go do something totally off ball and have some fun.
i think we need a game where we have everything. literally everything is on the table. you wanna play care bear? and run outside and hold hands? and go light the torchs in the dungeon? sure go ahead...but be careful..some dumbass with a hammer might knock you up while your down there, so you might want to bring a friend. you feelin a bit dangerous? you want that care bears new awesome shoes who camped out with his friends for 6 months to finally get? so dare yourself and go take it from him...but beware, once you kill him, your pretty much shunned from society, because you have a social problem.
something so SIMPLE like this can quickly balance itself out. a game for everyone. a single concequence for a single action, with no in betweens or fine print, a game we can all simply play. or if this didnt really do it, i guess we can all go play hello kitty online adventures, and pretend to have hot anime s3x right?
Originally posted by dvscloak to the care bears..you need hard core pvp'rs. because without us, you would never figure out the core stradegies, you'd still be looking in that old stradegy guide trying to power level yourself to level 9 so you can get that awesome forest bow of shame. and yes...sad to say, you also need pks. because if you didnt have them, once you got your shiny new rusty armor, and there was no way to loose it, that is just 1 part of the game you cant do again...because there is no way for you to "un-master it" or loose it. there will be always be the exciting rush of replanning and recamping to acquire that 1 of a kind item again.
I wish you hadn't included that paragraph, in what was otherwise a good first post. Suggesting that PvE players can't understand game mechanics and therefore have to ask PvP'ers how to play is insulting - some PvE guilds actually even avoid recruiting enthusiastic PvP'ers because they tend to be so clueless about coordinated group tactics.
I'm not really blaming you though, as I see that same arrogance and complete inability to understand the PvE mindset in the comments of practically every PvP enthusiast. They all claim that PvE'ers need PvP'ers, without considering that the basis of any such argument is only valid from a PvP point of view; which is what PvE'ers do not share.
Originally posted by Jade6 Originally posted by dvscloak to the care bears..you need hard core pvp'rs. because without us, you would never figure out the core stradegies, you'd still be looking in that old stradegy guide trying to power level yourself to level 9 so you can get that awesome forest bow of shame. and yes...sad to say, you also need pks. because if you didnt have them, once you got your shiny new rusty armor, and there was no way to loose it, that is just 1 part of the game you cant do again...because there is no way for you to "un-master it" or loose it. there will be always be the exciting rush of replanning and recamping to acquire that 1 of a kind item again.
I wish you hadn't included that paragraph, in what was otherwise a good first post. Suggesting that PvE players can't understand game mechanics and therefore have to ask PvP'ers how to play is insulting - some PvE guilds actually even avoid recruiting enthusiastic PvP'ers because they tend to be so clueless about coordinated group tactics.
I'm not really blaming you though, as I see that same arrogance and complete inability to understand the PvE mindset in the comments of practically every PvP enthusiast. They all claim that PvE'ers need PvP'ers, without considering that the basis of any such argument is only valid from a PvP point of view; which is what PvE'ers do not share.
Well this looks like a good thread to make my first post in I am a lover of the classic UO myself. I like PvP and *gasp* PvE. What I wish people would do is embrace the no-holds-barred PvP environment for all MMOs not because it's my opinion like I know some troll is waiting somewhere to reply with, but because it benefits a PvE player to have some *EXCITEMENT* once in a while. I can see how getting rich on an MMO can be fun, can you see why the prospect of having to run for your life can turn mundane "grinding" tasks like wood chopping into an adventure? This is why the MMOs I've played don't strike me as adventure, because I can basically play with my eyes closed half the time.
The benefit is, on UO, you BITE YOUR NAILS IN EXCITEMENT over mining ore, chopping trees, or fishing. At the same time, if you play smart on UO you can escape almost any fight or do these activities in quiet areas.
I really don't understand why a pure-PvE player can't think of a PK as another mob that he has to escape from. I wonder, is it because you can post in the forums to nerf mobs that are difficult, but to nerf PKs you have to destroy the fun for poor me? I'll chop wood in UO thanks.
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Originally posted by Saikron I really don't understand why a pure-PvE player can't think of a PK as another mob that he has to escape from. I wonder, is it because you can post in the forums to nerf mobs that are difficult, but to nerf PKs you have to destroy the fun for poor me? I'll chop wood in UO thanks.
A monster has a pattern, while a PKer is roaming and seeking players to kill. If you want to PROGRESS but are always been throw into other aspects because some players keep seeking you out, despite the fact you are not currently wishing for players combats, this is seriously aggravating. PvE and PvP are different gameplays. Someone might say it isn't the case because the rules are the same, but the fact is PKer may camp a spot, then camp another area, go in a guerilla streak and so on.
If you are looking solely for challenge, than PvP will outmatch anything PvE will even bring. However, if you are looking for a progression, a developpment, PvP is leagues behind with it constant setbacks.
Now, to get you an example, play Civ IV. Select any map and play a game, this is how the PvE players like it. Then, pick the map name TERRA, make it HUGE, add factions so there is 15 countries and click permanent war, so all factions are always at war with each other. Then when you developp your techs, pick no military tech until you have Monotheism & Alphabet. Trying to defend your cities with warriors against axemans, catapults, chariots and more will get on your nerves quite fast, I can assure you.
See, PvE and PvP offers DIFFERENTS gameplays, 1 is about progression and developpment (PvE) while the other is about challenges(PvP). Even if they are not per say automatically impossible to reconciliate, often it is impossible. The only game I will give a PvP chance is WAR; and I am almost sure I will HATE the enforced PvP and go back to ANY PvE game. The only thing that is worser than PvP is raiding IMO.
See, some peoples play on PvP games, but they play at 4:00 AM and they exit the zone as soon as they see someone entering it, are they really playing the game as intended or aren't they playing it for the PvE component they love?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Saikron it benefits a PvE player to have some *EXCITEMENT* once in a while. I can see how getting rich on an MMO can be fun, can you see why the prospect of having to run for your life can turn mundane "grinding" tasks like wood chopping into an adventure?
Unfortunately that's still PvP mentality speaking. At least for me it goes back to what Sun Tzu wrote more than 2000 years ago - the greatest general is not the one who can defeat 100 armies in 100 battles, but the one who can control things so well that the need to fight never arises. My ability to enjoy the "excitement" of PvP is mainly reduced by knowing that no matter who wins or loses, the situation happened because I was not smart enough to avoid it in the first place.
So you see, there's a strategic element involved here, at least for me. PvP is chaotic in nature, whereas PvE'ers are people who prefer to choose their own battles. I can fight against over-whelming odds again and again until the mob finally goes down, but I fight because I choose to fight. PvP is about reaction speed and simple learned responses which are practiced until they become instinctive; PvE is more like performance art or gymnastics in the sense that a certain fight can require an incredibly complex series of coordinated movements, but the rules of engagement remain the same, allowing one to explore different strategies, fine-tune his performance, and measure his progress reliably.
I mean, it may sound weird when I say this, but PvP is just not challenging enough for me in terms of the sort of challenges I really enjoy. While my experience with large scale PvP is limited, I have fought some duels to see what it's like, and I really didn't enjoy it. The learning consisted mostly of knowing what moves to use against each type of opponent and after that it was all about reaction speed. My enjoyment comes from understanding complexity, planning, fine-tuning, strategy, and executing long series of movements perfectly. I used to play Unreal Tournament online and actually did quite well in it, but it got old pretty fast because I felt that it didn't actually challenge me mentally.
Jade6 you make PvP and PvE sound the same: simple learned responses. And I agree. PvE is PvP without the reaction time and without having opponents that you can actually enjoy the company of. And when you say" understanding complexity, planning, fine-tuning, strategy, and executing long series of movements perfectly" you are just glamorizing the same stuff that goes into both PvP and PvE and calling it PvE.
And in response to the poster before Jade6, think of it this way. Jade6 is right even she didn't mean to make PvE and PvP the same, the difference in preference is really if you like tweaker games like UT or if you like more contemplative stuff like good PvE. The thing is, in PvE without PvP you always hit the ceiling. I think a lot of people would agree with me that in a game like WoW (with extremely restricted PvP) and EQ (PvP? give you 10pp for it?) you always hit the top. With games like classic UO where you dont have to grind for uber itemz and you lose them in PvP - there is no ceiling to anybody's enjoyment.
Other than that is sounds like the PvE consumers are confused about what they want and will never be happy: Unrestricted PvP makes PvE too hard! My Shaman is 60 with all the best items give me expansions!
Me - I just want everybody to be considered equally, PvPrs and PvErs. SO MANY GAMES are shutting the PvPrs out practically completely by having such heavy restrictions on not just who you can attack, but how you can make a character that is capable of PvPing (ie you need l33t tier 2 itemz or epic shit, or level 100 enchanted armor repair). It's just sad really that the (large) PvP minority's interests are shit on by games like EQ and WoW, where, if PvP occurs, after all is said and done, it's between your equipment and theirs.
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Originally posted by Saikron Jade6 you make PvP and PvE sound the same: simple learned responses.
PvP = "he does X, I do Y". PvE = "I do A,B,C,D... all the way to Z, and I'm just getting started".
If you want a simple definition, basically the difference is that PvE wants to maintain control while PvP wants to lose it in order to fight it back. Neither is any harder than the other; people perform to their maximum capacity in any case and I'm pretty sure that neither side has higher IQ than the other.
PvE is PvP without the reaction time and without having opponents that you can actually enjoy the company of.
Well, except that reaction time is very much part of PvE as well, it's just not all there's to it. And enjoying the company of allies tends to be a lot easier than enjoying the company of opponents.
Most FPS games are single player and therefore PvE after all; yet reaction speed is crucial in them. Even in the MMO world, reaction speed is needed when adds run in, etc. It's fun occasionally, but more than once in a blue moon tends to shift the focus away from what makes it all worthwile for a PvE'er.
I like to play single player FPS when I'm not playing my MMO. My enjoyment comes from mastering each level; I repeat the run with small adjustments until I can run through the entire level without getting hit at all (if possible). I find the most efficient path through, and if I get hit, I just reload. I imagine a PvP'er would do the exact opposite: try to get through on first try and get bored if he doesn't since after the first few tries the level stops being "unpredictable". I dunno, just a guess... it would make sense.
you are just glamorizing the same stuff that goes into both PvP and PvE and calling it PvE.
Nope. PvP'ers would be the first to chirp in that the whole point of PvP is that it's unpredictable.
in PvE without PvP you always hit the ceiling.
In a "game", both hit the ceiling eventually; in a "virtual world" (sandbox), neither ever will.
Other than that is sounds like the PvE consumers are confused about what they want
Nope, it just sounds like you are confused about how we think.
Please tell me then, what makes it worthwhile that you can't find in a world in unrestricted PvP? Also, I never claimed to know what PvErs think. What I do know is that you see posts complaining about both things: unrestricted PvP makes PvE too hard, and then in EQ you have people begging for expansions because they hit the level cap. Surely you've heard these complaints before?
Also, I know you don't legitimately believe: PvP = "he does X, I do Y". PvE = "I do A,B,C,D... all the way to Z, and I'm just getting started"
What PvP are you talking about? Complexity isn't hard to find in good PvP.
Lastly, you claim to like to do single player FPS levels until you can do it without getting hit, what do you do when you reach that point? In PvP you never reach such a point, because your opponents are learning along with you.
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
I didn't even have to read the OP, I just saw the length of it and then read the 2nd post in the thread and Immediately shot all the Ice cold Milk I had in my mouth out threw my Nose......Heh.
The Game.
Originally posted by Aquakitty Well, sounds like you want a new game called Life Replacement
Im a carebear (i guess), and to me, PvP is not as important as PvE. However, the thing that people forget when trhying to compare PvP with PvE is predictabiliity. Anofalye pointed out very well, when playing vs NPC monster, however good AI is,in time you will learn its strategy and tactics, and it becomes easier to handle, thus creating a feeling that you are getting better. Its VERY different ith PCs. They do weird stuff, unpredictable stuff, they dont fall into pattern, they do things you never thought was possible. Thus PC PvP is very fun becuase it almost alwyas "feels" unique. However, the bad side to that is many PCs will go "out of their way" to be mean or annoy u. NPCs never do that. This very often creates unpleasant experience. Ganking, PKing, Kill stealing - all of that can ruin someone's enjoyment of the game.
The best example would be with WoW I think. I was playing on Open PvP server and i was level 25ish -30ish, then a level 60 enemy player arrives, starts killing my quest mobs and me as well. I understand that open PvP means just that, open PvP, and it was my choice to pick a server i was playing on. But does any1 realy enjoy dying over and over to a character they cant realy hurt? I think this one inbalance is the one that creates even greater rift between PvP-ers and PvE-ers, pushing them to their extremes - PvPers become PKers, and PvEers become carebears. Its all about well designed PvP, if its fair, its gonna do great under any circumstances, if its not, its gonna encourage a few people (PKers), but discourage a whole lot of other people (carebears).
In a counter example, ill throw in PvP system in Planetside, which one of the few hardcore open PvP systems that I ( as a carebear) enjoy. In Planetside, you are 100% able to compete with anyone. Meaning there is no PK, becuase not a single person is unbalanced to the point where u stand no chances against that person.That type of PvP is the system that would bring PvErs and PvPers closer together IMO. True PvP should NOT give anyone preferrential treatment.
Originally posted by Saikron what makes it worthwhile that you can't find in a world in unrestricted PvP?
Everything. Unrestricted PvP is completely random; success mostly just depends on level and luck.
in EQ you have people begging for expansions because they hit the level cap.
Kicking them back down is not the answer. When you finish reading a book, you can't extend the experience by flipping back a few hundred pages and reading it all over again now can you? It just makes you angry if some dude runs by occasionally and flips those pages for you, against your will.
The real solution might be a sandbox system (I played pre-CU SWG and yes I'm a fan), dramatically increasing difficulty in endgame content or an integrated player-made content system (so that the story never ends). PvE thinking is story-driven; always searching for new experiences. PvP is always the same: a bunch of guys fighting another bunch of guys. It's like comparing football to a movie.
Complexity isn't hard to find in good PvP.
Then I have yet to come across good PvP I guess.
Lastly, you claim to like to do single player FPS levels until you can do it without getting hit, what do you do when you reach that point?
I then go on to play the next level the same way, or if the game ends, another game.
The experience I'm looking for in these games is that entirely fluid, continuous execution of perfected movements in sequence; it can take a whole lot of movements to get through an entire level without stopping or getting hit even once. I find it very enjoyable once it finally works out.
In PvP you never reach such a point, because your opponents are learning along with you.
Then it's clearly not worth it. It makes sense to practice until you overcome an obstacle, but when there is no reward (such as access to a whole new zone and the experiences that come with it), or when you can't overcome the obstacle even with practice, why waste time on it to begin with?
Comments
not-so-advanced-programmer i say: "Bingo". Thats why most games have
just a few good sides and never expertly cover everything. Cant be done
untill we unlock another 10-20% of our brain power
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I would play this game. Leveling treadmills and grinding aspects are quite possibility the worst ideas ever manifested in the MMORPG genre. Ultima Online was truly the only MMO I've ever enjoyed fully without feeling obligated to do certain things such as reaching the next level, grinding for phat lewt, or farming cash. I played the game how I wanted with little restriction in doing so and had plenty of fun doing it at the same time.
However I think players should have a choice as to how they want to play their game. I hate the idea of forcing players to do certain things in a game, such as forcing them to play in an open PVP environment. If they want to, then by all means let them. But I think they should have a choice upon character creation or server selection towards what kind of gameplay they want to lean more towards.
I agree completely with everything you said though. We can only pray and hope an Ultima Online 2.0 will come out. But then again, EA will probably just cancel that project as well.
---
Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is.
---
Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park
---
If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you:
www.ProgressQuest.com
the original Swg that was the only RPG couse you could be anything you wanted whenever you wanted.
I played over 2 years I had a clan, shop, I was a ranger, beast master, pistolleer, doc etc etc. Everything had fun and GCW was perfect, after JTL space was awesome.
I really liked that. I liked macros too. The game was playable 24 hours a day.
Theres nothing on market ( maybe RV but it has major problems ) which can give me that freedom of choice.
Have fun
______________________________________________________________________
Lend a hand and break the chains of regularity you lean so closely upon
Sorry but I just have to say this: I wanted to make Wurm because i felt the same way like you do Dilatedmind. And it's up and running. I am working on making fighting more interactive right now.
You sound like a Wurm fanboi, hopefully that's just coincidence. You're welcome to check it out.
http://www.wurmonline.com for gods sake!
wow ive been a reader here on mmorpg.com for a long time and i have never, not once responded to a topic generally because they are always consumed with blatter from 5 year olds flaming other people, who they deem retarded because they thought they were elite at tetris online or something...but this topic, other then the SWG CU emu has caught my eye & i feel i need to say something for this maybe the one time i actually put my 2 cents in.
Well for starters, for all of you who keep flaming people saying, "wow your retarded to want so much stuff, because there is a REAL LIFE, or REAL LIFE this and bash on someone because of REAL LIFE that" and try and make it sound like you live some sort of glamerous life that you have no time for video games, just stop. because if your replying to this topic on a forum at about 11:37 pm, 2:17 am, 5:16 am so on and so on...i'd hate to break it to ya, but you dont have much of a life or much of a important one, if your on here playing flame wars with the little kids here. so lets face it, EVERYONE who posts here is obviously addicted or has been addicted to some online game at one point or another wether it being uo, swg, eq, crackwhoreonline, w/e floated your boat, because none of us here are elite posters at homedepot.com....as i hear its quite boring there.
We all play these games for our own reasons, wether because it helps to relieve stress, or that sea donkey you live with you call a wife is nagging you about the dishs & you feel you gotta get away, or maybe its just plain fun, either way, we're all on here or there, and seem to find it important enough to get back on these forums and talk smack to just about anyone who sounds care bear or retarded to try and show we are just about the most glamerous level 46 nerd in the world...because we are all nerds.
To the pks...because we are all flamboyantly audacious, and we ALL [pvp'rs, pks] believe we are the supreme beings and are better then everyone...stop. we need the care bears. because if they just suddenly dissappeared, who else of a player will you find in the middle of the woods in UO chopping firewood ? who else are you gonna give a tinker trapped box while telling them theres rare items inside...face it. being uo, wow, eq, swg, homedepotadventuresonline, we need care bears, because if we didnt have any, then we'd just be playing with just the 6 of us...
to the care bears..you need hard core pvp'rs. because without us, you would never figure out the core stradegies, you'd still be looking in that old stradegy guide trying to power level yourself to level 9 so you can get that awesome forest bow of shame. and yes...sad to say, you also need pks. because if you didnt have them, once you got your shiny new rusty armor, and there was no way to loose it, that is just 1 part of the game you cant do again...because there is no way for you to "un-master it" or loose it. there will be always be the exciting rush of replanning and recamping to acquire that 1 of a kind item again.
And why pay attention to what tv reporters say? if i am not mistaken..arent they the loosers who bash on us for playing video games, and are also the people who go to cheese parties & report on stuff they saw "someone else" doing something so utterly wild and exciting, and just felt they need'd to tell the WORLD about it...key word "SAW SOMEONE ELSE DOING SOMETHING" ok key words...tv reporters....are LOOSERS.."so its gonna be like..cloudy...and wet...and um...HOLY MARY DID YOU SEE THAT GUY?! HE JUST MELEE ATTACKED MY CAMERA MAN IN THE FACE! FREAKIN WILD MAN! MARY, I HOPE YOUR SEEING THIS"
In essence, its us [Gamers] vs just about anyone else. ESPECIALLY the mmo rpg players..we all take pride in what our charecter looks like, because we all know, FASHION is quite possible the biggest thing in the mmo world. wether its some fancy looking armor, or your that crazy f*cin pk guy runnin around in a sports bra, we all remember what we someone else looked like. We all take pride in our game possessions, we ALL take pride in our knowledge of what makes that game go round...and sorry to say, that kind of knowledge doesnt happen with someone playing 30 minutes a day, a hour a day, 2 hours a day...your there...hours on end just like the rest of us. so unless your life is seriously revolved on testing keyboard keys for odd sounds, or making sure monitors dont change random colors after 4 hours of use...i think your obviously a gamer. i know..HOLY SHIZZLES YOUR INFECTED. quick run outside and get a life...or make it easy on yourself and go bid on one on ebay.
to the moderator of this post, i am like you and many others, a ultima online guy. i have played EVERYTHING to date, and can not find anything like it. there are 3 types of people. someone who liked UO, someone who HATED UO, or someone who has HEARD of UO. and we all come to the conclussion that is unlike anything you will ever play.
im not saying UO is the best thing out there, its just very different. its captivating because it does what a MMO should be doing, simulating LIFE. thats what made UO fun. the fact you can just log online and literally watch life just happen around you. people get up to make weapons, armor, peolpe who beg for money in the streets. fisherman go out to sea and get fish, or people who offer haha poisoned goods to others, just to watch them suffer. "quick here, DRINK THIS, AH S*** MAN, I FEEL SICK, WHAT YOU PUT IN THIS?! oh you know cider, apple flavoring, man bear pig poison..you know that kinda stuff..have fun choking"
no other game in existence to date can claim to give you this kind of charecter creation and play freedom...NOTHING.freedom does though comes with its cost. its un-controllable. pks and such had nothing to fear upon death except loose a few items, and in some rare occassions a small stat hit...shadowbane just came to early. lineage [2] was only for the person who could play 37 1/2 hours a day to power level all the way to 75, wow doesnt have enough content & well then theres EQ.. you either like it or...well most likely hate it.
SWG was probably the only other game, well RPG type i liked other then UO. because it had alot of freedom..controlled freedom, but it felt good. alot of charecter involvement, and A LOAD of potential. LEVEL based games require way to much grinding, and you only really get a sense of accomplishment after you reached those peak levels...but what happens when you max out? theres not much more to experience? its kinda like playing in a big box. eventually you make your to the top of the box, and then you kinda just drift to the sides of the wall with everyone else once they have reached the top also..eventually, the box becomes to full...and yea..people start jumping out...to other crappy boxes
im not saying they are bad, just to different then what a MMO game should be. i dont think a video game should take us away for 5 6 7 8 9 10 hours just to get to level 10, because yes, for those of us in the real world, there is stuff to be done. open skill based games i have noticed generally ARE much larger, WITH much more playable content. so someone who does play like a hour or 2 hours, can easily catch up to the others a day or 2 away, or can plan it out, so they can go do something totally off ball and have some fun.
i think we need a game where we have everything. literally everything is on the table. you wanna play care bear? and run outside and hold hands? and go light the torchs in the dungeon? sure go ahead...but be careful..some dumbass with a hammer might knock you up while your down there, so you might want to bring a friend. you feelin a bit dangerous? you want that care bears new awesome shoes who camped out with his friends for 6 months to finally get? so dare yourself and go take it from him...but beware, once you kill him, your pretty much shunned from society, because you have a social problem.
something so SIMPLE like this can quickly balance itself out. a game for everyone. a single concequence for a single action, with no in betweens or fine print, a game we can all simply play. or if this didnt really do it, i guess we can all go play hello kitty online adventures, and pretend to have hot anime s3x right?
I sleep with a pillow under my gun.
I wish you hadn't included that paragraph, in what was otherwise a good first post. Suggesting that PvE players can't understand game mechanics and therefore have to ask PvP'ers how to play is insulting - some PvE guilds actually even avoid recruiting enthusiastic PvP'ers because they tend to be so clueless about coordinated group tactics.
I'm not really blaming you though, as I see that same arrogance and complete inability to understand the PvE mindset in the comments of practically every PvP enthusiast. They all claim that PvE'ers need PvP'ers, without considering that the basis of any such argument is only valid from a PvP point of view; which is what PvE'ers do not share.
I wish you hadn't included that paragraph, in what was otherwise a good first post. Suggesting that PvE players can't understand game mechanics and therefore have to ask PvP'ers how to play is insulting - some PvE guilds actually even avoid recruiting enthusiastic PvP'ers because they tend to be so clueless about coordinated group tactics.
I'm not really blaming you though, as I see that same arrogance and complete inability to understand the PvE mindset in the comments of practically every PvP enthusiast. They all claim that PvE'ers need PvP'ers, without considering that the basis of any such argument is only valid from a PvP point of view; which is what PvE'ers do not share.
Well this looks like a good thread to make my first post in
The benefit is, on UO, you BITE YOUR NAILS IN EXCITEMENT over mining ore, chopping trees, or fishing. At the same time, if you play smart on UO you can escape almost any fight or do these activities in quiet areas.
I really don't understand why a pure-PvE player can't think of a PK as another mob that he has to escape from. I wonder, is it because you can post in the forums to nerf mobs that are difficult, but to nerf PKs you have to destroy the fun for poor me? I'll chop wood in UO thanks.
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
A monster has a pattern, while a PKer is roaming and seeking players to kill. If you want to PROGRESS but are always been throw into other aspects because some players keep seeking you out, despite the fact you are not currently wishing for players combats, this is seriously aggravating. PvE and PvP are different gameplays. Someone might say it isn't the case because the rules are the same, but the fact is PKer may camp a spot, then camp another area, go in a guerilla streak and so on.
If you are looking solely for challenge, than PvP will outmatch anything PvE will even bring. However, if you are looking for a progression, a developpment, PvP is leagues behind with it constant setbacks.
Now, to get you an example, play Civ IV. Select any map and play a game, this is how the PvE players like it. Then, pick the map name TERRA, make it HUGE, add factions so there is 15 countries and click permanent war, so all factions are always at war with each other. Then when you developp your techs, pick no military tech until you have Monotheism & Alphabet. Trying to defend your cities with warriors against axemans, catapults, chariots and more will get on your nerves quite fast, I can assure you.
See, PvE and PvP offers DIFFERENTS gameplays, 1 is about progression and developpment (PvE) while the other is about challenges(PvP). Even if they are not per say automatically impossible to reconciliate, often it is impossible. The only game I will give a PvP chance is WAR; and I am almost sure I will HATE the enforced PvP and go back to ANY PvE game. The only thing that is worser than PvP is raiding IMO.
See, some peoples play on PvP games, but they play at 4:00 AM and they exit the zone as soon as they see someone entering it, are they really playing the game as intended or aren't they playing it for the PvE component they love?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
eq2 is the best ever ......
No JK actually my personal favorite MMo was SWG pre-CU
The new EQ2, better than ever befor !
don't click this link...
And in response to the poster before Jade6, think of it this way. Jade6 is right even she didn't mean to make PvE and PvP the same, the difference in preference is really if you like tweaker games like UT or if you like more contemplative stuff like good PvE. The thing is, in PvE without PvP you always hit the ceiling. I think a lot of people would agree with me that in a game like WoW (with extremely restricted PvP) and EQ (PvP? give you 10pp for it?) you always hit the top. With games like classic UO where you dont have to grind for uber itemz and you lose them in PvP - there is no ceiling to anybody's enjoyment.
Other than that is sounds like the PvE consumers are confused about what they want and will never be happy:
Unrestricted PvP makes PvE too hard!
My Shaman is 60 with all the best items give me expansions!
Me - I just want everybody to be considered equally, PvPrs and PvErs. SO MANY GAMES are shutting the PvPrs out practically completely by having such heavy restrictions on not just who you can attack, but how you can make a character that is capable of PvPing (ie you need l33t tier 2 itemz or epic shit, or level 100 enchanted armor repair). It's just sad really that the (large) PvP minority's interests are shit on by games like EQ and WoW, where, if PvP occurs, after all is said and done, it's between your equipment and theirs.
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
Please tell me then, what makes it worthwhile that you can't find in a world in unrestricted PvP? Also, I never claimed to know what PvErs think. What I do know is that you see posts complaining about both things: unrestricted PvP makes PvE too hard, and then in EQ you have people begging for expansions because they hit the level cap. Surely you've heard these complaints before?
Also, I know you don't legitimately believe: PvP = "he does X, I do Y". PvE = "I do A,B,C,D... all the way to Z, and I'm just getting started"
What PvP are you talking about? Complexity isn't hard to find in good PvP.
Lastly, you claim to like to do single player FPS levels until you can do it without getting hit, what do you do when you reach that point? In PvP you never reach such a point, because your opponents are learning along with you.
_______________________________
PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
The best example would be with WoW I think. I was playing on Open PvP server and i was level 25ish -30ish, then a level 60 enemy player arrives, starts killing my quest mobs and me as well. I understand that open PvP means just that, open PvP, and it was my choice to pick a server i was playing on. But does any1 realy enjoy dying over and over to a character they cant realy hurt? I think this one inbalance is the one that creates even greater rift between PvP-ers and PvE-ers, pushing them to their extremes - PvPers become PKers, and PvEers become carebears. Its all about well designed PvP, if its fair, its gonna do great under any circumstances, if its not, its gonna encourage a few people (PKers), but discourage a whole lot of other people (carebears).
In a counter example, ill throw in PvP system in Planetside, which one of the few hardcore open PvP systems that I ( as a carebear) enjoy. In Planetside, you are 100% able to compete with anyone. Meaning there is no PK, becuase not a single person is unbalanced to the point where u stand no chances against that person.That type of PvP is the system that would bring PvErs and PvPers closer together IMO. True PvP should NOT give anyone preferrential treatment.
PS: @dvscloak, welcome to the vocal side
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.