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Over-drive by developers to force large-size grouping?
Cik_Asalin
Member Posts: 3,033
I've seen this pattern evolve since the days of the original EQ by, what I think to be, i'll informed developers that in order to have a mmorpg, you must design said game to only be completely playable by group sizes no smaller than 5.
However, WoW is the exception....it feels and plays like you can gain full access to the content of its world (less battle grounds) with average party size of <=3.
I've heard rumnlings that the previously mentioned pattern of forced large-group game-play in order to have access to game content will be forced in upcomming games such as Vanguard.
So, I stand on the side of grouping is good...but not necessarily forced large group play in order to access and take advantage of a games content. Should I just drinlk the coolaid?
However, WoW is the exception....it feels and plays like you can gain full access to the content of its world (less battle grounds) with average party size of <=3.
I've heard rumnlings that the previously mentioned pattern of forced large-group game-play in order to have access to game content will be forced in upcomming games such as Vanguard.
So, I stand on the side of grouping is good...but not necessarily forced large group play in order to access and take advantage of a games content. Should I just drinlk the coolaid?
Comments
why can't they make a good game set in a social environment. Creat a sysm that encourages interaction, not force it.
I think this will be my next blog topic ... *ponder*
H
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bain
http://foad.za.net
playing eq2 and two worlds
It is easier to solo and reach max level in WoW, but without groups you are going to miss a large part of the game which is definately group/raid centric thanks to EQ and the guys from EQ at Blizzard and the expansion just looks to be more of the same.
WoW is certainly not an exception.
It merely uses sleight of hand to make you think it is. Rather than forcing you to group to get good stuff and xp, it forces you to group for good stuff but allows you to solo for xp. It compounds this effect by allowing you to do everythign in groups of 5 or less up to 60 and then forcing you to do everything in groups of 20-40 past the level 60 instances.
WoW is actually worse than EQ in this regard. It simply delays the pain. Isn't that sad? Its actually worse.
It's not so much games as it is the Fantasy genre. Leaving games aside lets take a look at some famous fantasy adventures. First off the most popular. The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings. In both adventures you have a little soloing with the majority being small group adventure and limited large scale raid scenarios. Second up would have to be Conan. While Conan did solo some content he also had his little band of merry marauders that he grouped with. You'll find the same thing stories like Xena and Hercules.
Yes Vanguard will require grouping and raiding if you want to get to a portion of the content but they won't be eliminating soloing altogether.
Make a difference!
Because let's face it. You can't always find a party and there is a certain subset of MMO players who actually have jobs, families, and lives outside the game. These people generally work 9-5 every weekday and can really only spend 4 or so hours a day playing their MMO of choice before they begin so suffer the real world consequences of neglecting their real lives. We the "casual" players do not want to spend 3 of our 4 four hours sitting around in town begging everyone within earshot to group up, only to have to log off minutes after the party forms and reaches its destination.
I think that there are two main problems with the way MMOs tend to handle party play.
1. They make it compulsory without providing a viable solo alternative. You have a choice: find a party or sit in town and do nothing.
2. The process of finding and joining a party is poorly implemented. You either spam the shout channel or wait for guild members to log on.
So not only are you forced to join the party, the process of finding and joining said party is incredibly difficult.
One game that makes party play compulsory but actually did it well (despite its myriad of other flaws) was DDO. The LFG, LFM, and player list windows works wonders for finding a party. Most MMOs tend to implement something like this but screw it up by merely adding a LFG flag that is restricted by location. DDO made it global and got it right. Now if we can just get Turbine to fix everything else....
I just don't want to forced to do something in a game.
A better way to handle group forming is alway a good idea as well. have not given it much though, but I'm sure a much more elegant way of handling lone players finding a group to play with can be found.
H
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bain
http://foad.za.net
Killing computer controled monsters? WHOO! Lets make it a lan party and get wild with some zima! If you play mmos to get in a group and kill npcs, well i got a game for ya, its called FF12. Your in a party that uses AI (wich is more than can be said for real players you sometimes group with) and you get to kill npcs all fuckin day. However if you wanna kill real people... well too bad.
MMORPGs were invented to give us REAL opponents, not happy magic fariy butt buddies to frolic around with and kill the same shit we have been killin for years on regular single player rpgs.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Yeah I agree I think more 2-3 people content would be good, with WoW it seems either one extreme or another, solo or 5 man.
MMORPGs were invented to give us REAL opponents, not happy magic fariy butt buddies to frolic around with and kill the same shit we have been killin for years on regular single player rpgs.
Yeah cause 5 people ganking someone is SO challenging ...... PvPer combat has as much unchallenging combat as PvE does and MMORPGs weren't invented for just PvPer, if they were they wouldn't have bothered with crafting or NPC creatures to hunt and the games would look alot like quake or counter strike.
if soloing is always an option, it's the option that the vast, vast, vast majority of players will always take. Mostly for the reasons you mention: it's faster to get started, it's "easy in/easy out", you can pace yourself, log on and off when you want and for myriad other reasons it is just way, way more convenient as a playstyle for the vast majority of players. Unless you force people to group to get through content, you'll have relatively few groups (witness WoW pre-60 ... grouping is very rare indeed outside of instance quests because you just don't need to group, and if you don't need to group, the costs of grouping almost always outweigh the benefits).
If you have a game that is gung-ho about forced grouping, however, you automatically limit your player base, because a lot of people find grouping to be a pain in the ass for their "many short sessions" gaming style.So if you make a game like DDO, you're going to get a lot of folks who just won't play because it is forced grouping -- or, rather, was when they initially released the game --- they faced reality and subsequently changed it to attract more soloists. The same will be the case for Vanguard, although if Vanguard has better content than DDO (hard not to ... and very likely that Vanguard will be much much better content wise than DDO), it will attract/retain at least the group-oriented players it is designed for.
About the most balanced group/solo game I know of right now is EQ2, which is that way now, but was not that way at release, when it was very group-oriented. People complained, it lost them, subs and ... lo and behold ... more solo content came into the game.
I find it amusing that you would use WoW as an example of a game that doesn't have forced grouping when the entire end game of WoW is forced raiding.
As far as EQ.. I solo'd all the time in EQ with my Mage
MMORPGs were invented to give us REAL opponents, not happy magic fariy butt buddies to frolic around with and kill the same shit we have been killin for years on regular single player rpgs.
Ok, to get out of your little fantasy world, if that really was true, then all MMORPG's would be about pvp, which is not the case. welcome to reality.
Personnally, I try to do SERVERWIDE and SERVER first. You won't change me, I will try both. Don't mind me, I will prolly not succeed, I am only 1 player on sooo many, but, maybe we never know.
Having the best groupers been groupers, the best soloers been soloers and the best raiders been raiders (either in a perfectly designed game or at least on their specific servers) would increase such "competitive nature". Competition must not be done at the expense of cooperation, this is partly why I love instanced sooo much.
I don't think that ANY enforced gameplay is good, but some are worser. Raid is the worst of them all for an achiever, while PvP is the worst of them all for a socialiser. Of course, these are generalisation, some achievers like to raid (they usually end-up been raid-leaders) and some socialiser enjoy PvP (a GL is often a socialiser).
A good gameplay doesn't have to be enforced on other gameplays. Having a different endgame per gameplay would insure that, but I don't see that coming in any near future, devs are too dumbs for that.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You are wrong. The vast overwhelming majority of players in CoH and CoV are grouping, not soloing.
And I don't see how soloing could be made more "always an option". Grouping just has to be interesting and FUN, which game suffering from soloing attrition usually forget, to make it FUN to group. See, why would someone group in DDO? DDO doesn't encourage grouping, in fact, it kinda deters from it with the way the encounters are built...while CoH is encouraging grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This is something I don't freak out about much. If you can advance and do some of the content solo, I don't have a problem. Some of the content is going to be designed around grouping for certain levels. Thats fine too as far as I'm concerned.
You are wrong. The vast overwhelming majority of players in CoH and CoV are grouping, not soloing.
And I don't see how soloing could be made more "always an option". Grouping just has to be interesting and FUN, which game suffering from soloing attrition usually forget, to make it FUN to group. See, why would someone group in DDO? DDO doesn't encourage grouping, in fact, it kinda deters from it with the way the encounters are built...while CoH is encouraging grouping.
Well in CoX there is a substantial XP increase when a player groups instead of being solo.
MMORPGs were invented to give us REAL opponents, not happy magic fariy butt buddies to frolic around with and kill the same shit we have been killin for years on regular single player rpgs.
Yeah cause 5 people ganking someone is SO challenging ...... PvPer combat has as much unchallenging combat as PvE does and MMORPGs weren't invented for just PvPer, if they were they wouldn't have bothered with crafting or NPC creatures to hunt and the games would look alot like quake or counter strike.
See folks? This is what we call the "Sand in Vagina anti-pvper" This type of anti-pvper hates pvp cause they left a safe cozzy mmo, started playin a real mmo, got ganked a few times, threw a hissy then /quit.
Come play Shadowbane, death is around every corner, and aient shit you can do about it baby. In Shadowbane you got two options. Either /quit grab your blankie, and log into hello kittie island adventure. Or deal with it, get big, and get revenge. Having thouse two options keeps the right people in SB, the pussys quit, the tough stay and fight.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
MMORPGs were invented to give us REAL opponents, not happy magic fariy butt buddies to frolic around with and kill the same shit we have been killin for years on regular single player rpgs.
Yeah cause 5 people ganking someone is SO challenging ...... PvPer combat has as much unchallenging combat as PvE does and MMORPGs weren't invented for just PvPer, if they were they wouldn't have bothered with crafting or NPC creatures to hunt and the games would look alot like quake or counter strike.
See folks? This is what we call the "Sand in Vagina anti-pvper" This type of anti-pvper hates pvp cause they left a safe cozzy mmo, started playin a real mmo, got ganked a few times, threw a hissy then /quit.
Come play Shadowbane, death is around every corner, and aient shit you can do about it baby. In Shadowbane you got two options. Either /quit grab your blankie, and log into hello kittie island adventure. Or deal with it, get big, and get revenge. Having thouse two options keeps the right people in SB, the pussys quit, the tough stay and fight.
ohh nice attempt. I point out that PvPer has it's fair share of unchallenging and you resort to assumptions and insults, great counter arguement.
PvPer is a play style, you like it? Fine but it's just as challenging as PvE alot of the time and going on about how much more 'challenging' it is in a thread where the OP was basicaly saying he wants non pvper intrested players to be victums in his mmo to be able to enjoy pvper is very amusing.
LoL, yea, I open my mouth WAY too much.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde