Casual Play Column: Raiding Needs to Die

vajuras · December 2006

No, its not that simple. I subscribed to WoW many months and I only raided molten core like twice. I got a friend that only hit MC 3 times. Not everyone that subscribes to WoW likes to raid. Not ev1 that subscribes like to pvp, craft, fish, etc. The only thing you can assume WoW is doing right is making the game fun. But you cant assume ev1 is hanging around for raiding. Not to mention WoW is running a massive TV campaign, mag ads, had like the biggest booth at E3, etc. You are correct though mmorpg makers will take a strong look at WoW no doubt. [edit] Actually I hope they do. That means we'll get more fast leveling, rested bonus xp, and pvp rewards. If anything, WoW proves if you try to please everyone (be flexible), it will pay off

Ancile · December 2006

This "article" is littered with laughable statements, and little more then the usuall whining nonsense from so called "casual" players.

The truth of it all is that, the so called "casual" players, that they claim them self to be, aren't the majority of the proper casual player base. In fact they are the vocal minority whining about how they really don't want all the shines dangling at the end of the stick, when the fact of the matter is, that's exactly what they want, but without putting in the same effort it takes the Raiders to do so. They want it now, and with no effort. Preferably from a vending machine so they don't even have to go out and adventure.

"...few shinies in front of obsessive-compulsive players...".

The only obessive-compulsive is the whining author.

"It takes hours to run these adventures, and it can take an hour to get all the people gathered for bigger runs, not to mention days in the case of rare spawns"

More ridiculous and vastly exaggerated examples that aren't the norm, and the author bloody well knows so. Feigning ignorance isn't valid in this case.

You also bloody well know, you don't have a necessity for any of the items that raiders comes across to play your "casual" solo/group game. When you can get by more then adequately in past games, with crafted and group dropped gear. There has yet to be a game that required raid gear to succeed in the normal content available.

The author even shoots him self in the foot with an early statement.

"For casual players, this phase of the game is typically when they pack their bags and move on to more entertaining pastures."

There's absolutely no reason to cater to the crowd the "author" belongs to, for that very reason that they aren't the core gamers. They aren't the gamer that will stick around for months upon months, or even years on end paying the subscription. When you jump ship so often it's not a bloody wonder now is it.

Regardless, this so called article isn't worth the "paper" it's written, and it's futile to comment of it any further, it's bottom line laughable.

vajuras · December 2006

Originally posted by Ancile
The truth of it all is that, the so called "casual" players, that they claim them self to be, aren't the majority of the proper casual player base.

You're seriously delusional if you think the majority of WoW players arent casual btw. everyone can easily solo themselves to 60 in WoW. That argument makes no sense.

[edit] Additionally its pretty foolish to claim they dont put in the hours. A raider plays in 5+ hour chunks for example. A casual might play in 1 hour chunks. 5 == 5. Additionally, if they are grouping, then how can you call it fair they dont deserve the rewards? For instance, lets say I pvp with 40+ ppl from my guild. Why dont I deserve equal rewards? Even blizzard is coming around to rewarding pvpers better now

Ancile · December 2006

Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by Ancile
This "article" is littered with laughable statements, and little more then the usuall whining nonsense from so called "casual" players.

You're seriously delusional if you think the majority of WoW players arent casual btw. everyone can easily solo themselves to 60 in WoW. That argument makes no sense.

I'm delusional? Heh, what does WoW have to do with anything you just quoted?

vajuras · December 2006

Originally posted by Ancile
I'm delusional? Heh, what does WoW have to do with anything you just quoted?

The truth of it all is that, the so called "casual" players, that they claim them self to be, aren't the majority of the proper casual player base. In fact they are the vocal minority whining about how they really don't want all the shines dangling at the end of the stick, when the fact of the matter is, that's exactly what they want, but without putting in the same effort it takes the Raiders to do so. They want it now, and with no effort. Preferably from a vending machine so they don't even have to go out and adventure.

You said casual players dont make up the majority. The majority of western MMO players play WoW bar none. WoW caters to casual players from 1-60. Thus, your post whether you intended it or not does cover WoW

Viczar · December 2006

I agree with the article in most aspects. There does need to be a better "end game" for the casual players. I believe the best way to do this is to devote your game to either casual players or hardcore players. WoW caters to both imo, which is where you can see some flaws in the game... look at the current debate of the PvP rewards, the hardcores are angry that it is "too easy" to obtain these PvP rewards, while many casuals still believe they are too hard to achieve.

There are already many games that cater to hardcore players, EQ, EQ2, many aspects of WoW, and Vanguard will definitely cater towards the hardcore type of player. Now, its time for a more casual friendly game. A casual game shouldn't reward time spent in game per say, where as a hardcore game should. When time-spent gives the best reward, it will never be a casual friendly game, especially when PvP is involved, because the casuals will never be able to compete with the hardcores.

Cholayna · December 2006

Originally posted by Viczar

There are already many games that cater to hardcore players, EQ, EQ2, many aspects of WoW, and Vanguard will definitely cater towards the hardcore type of player. Now, its time for a more casual friendly game. A casual game shouldn't reward time spent in game per say, where as a hardcore game should. When time-spent gives the best reward, it will never be a casual friendly game, especially when PvP is involved, because the casuals will never be able to compete with the hardcores.

So ....ummm....why play any mmo then?

Ancile · December 2006

Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by Ancile
I'm delusional? Heh, what does WoW have to do with anything you just quoted? The truth of it all is that, the so called "casual" players, that they claim them self to be, aren't the majority of the proper casual player base. In fact they are the vocal minority whining about how they really don't want all the shines dangling at the end of the stick, when the fact of the matter is, that's exactly what they want, but without putting in the same effort it takes the Raiders to do so. They want it now, and with no effort. Preferably from a vending machine so they don't even have to go out and adventure.

You said casual players dont make up the majority. The majority of western MMO players play WoW bar none. WoW caters to casual players from 1-60. Thus, your post whether you intended it or not does cover WoW

Sorry but you may need a tad higher skill level in reading comprehension. But I'll rephrase it nonetheless.

What I mean by the above sentence, especially the very first, was that the author and others voicing similar opinions aren't the true casual gamers. True casual gamers doesn't throw the same hissy fits or obsessions over loot. Because that's what this is all about, they don't desire or want to put in whatever effort is required to optain the items.
Even though it's clear as day that the games of today are primarily about item acquisition, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

In fact this is the aged old debate of Risk vs Reward that dates as far back as to the dawn of raiding.
.
Now what people need to understand is that, it doesn't take several "days" on end as the author so clearly put it, to be a raider. Especially in the silver platter game that is WoW, MMORPG players today have it far easier then they ever did but that's a different discussion.
I personally know plenty of people with real life jobs, significant others, ect. That has sufficient time for a couple hours every other night for a little MC raiding, or what not.

It's an old tired out discussion when people bring up the fact that they don't have time. When it's more about how they manage their time, and their priorities. The problem isn't with the developers or the raiders.

Ancile · December 2006

Originally posted by Viczar
I agree with the article in most aspects. There does need to be a better "end game" for the casual players. I believe the best way to do this is to devote your game to either casual players or hardcore players. WoW caters to both imo, which is where you can see some flaws in the game... look at the current debate of the PvP rewards, the hardcores are angry that it is "too easy" to obtain these PvP rewards, while many casuals still believe they are too hard to achieve. There are already many games that cater to hardcore players, EQ, EQ2, many aspects of WoW, and Vanguard will definitely cater towards the hardcore type of player. Now, its time for a more casual friendly game. A casual game shouldn't reward time spent in game per say, where as a hardcore game should. When time-spent gives the best reward, it will never be a casual friendly game, especially when PvP is involved, because the casuals will never be able to compete with the hardcores.

EverQuest 2 isn't in any stretch of the imagination hardcore, we had plenty of players I'd consider casual when I raided, all through the beginning and up until KoS. Granted I doubt we share the same opinion on what the term hardcore truly means.

Regardless Vanguard is about the core gamer, the player that sticks around for a long time and doesn't jump ship at earliest convenience.

WoW is in every way the casual gamers MMORPG.

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Ancile
Originally posted by vajuras

It's an old tired out discussion when people bring up the fact that they don't have time. When it's more about how they manage their time, and their priorities. The problem isn't with the developers or the raiders.

sex with the wife.... raiding (more than two hours at a time, i'm afraid, in all reality) with people i don't even know....

my god, what HAVE i been thinking??????????

anyone that believes a game should be a priority, yeah, i'm sorry for your family and friends.

you're right in what you're saying, just in a way you don't mean.

the problem is most definitely with the game developers and the people whose business models revolve around catering to less than 1% of the playerbase (using wow as an example and kaplan's slides from e3 for the %).

just looking at those numbers, you plainly, undeniably see that over 99.2% of the wow populace does NOT engage in raiding. period. end of story.

i don't see where there's a debate. after all, to quote some moronic thinking, how can 99.2%+ of 7million+ subs be wrong?

Balmer · December 2006

Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie.

It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

ginfress01 · December 2006

Raiding itself doesnt need to die. It's the group of raiders that keeps shouting that the items they are getting from raids should be the best in the game that need to die out.

Xenduli · December 2006

I'm laughing right now. Why? Because all those people who consider themselves hardcore will be replacing thier epic items in a matter of minutes playing TBC as the greens there are "superior", then they rush to 70 and do the same shit all over again.

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Balmer
Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie. It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

see, you're just making up numbers. as i stated in my post, jeff kaplan (you know, lead dev for world of warcraft, that guy...) had a presentation at the last e3 show (big event, lots of gaming devs go there to show off their stuff, you might've heard of it). now, at this thing, as i stated previously, kaplan had a presentation, if you look at the presentation, he has numbers, taken directly from the game, of how many people raid.

so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following. now see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %. a calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how many raid.

feel free to apologize.

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Ancile
This "article" is littered with laughable statements, and little more then the usuall whining nonsense from so called "casual" players.

what's a casual player? and why do you keep saying -- so called "casual" players -- ??

The truth of it all is that, the so called "casual" players, that they claim them self to be, aren't the majority of the proper casual player base.

what in the world does that even mean? looking at replies to your post, others also don't understand it.

In fact they are the vocal minority whining about how they really don't want all the shines dangling at the end of the stick, when the fact of the matter is, that's exactly what they want, but without putting in the same effort it takes the Raiders to do so.

most people define casual player as someone who doesn't have the time to devote endless hours on end to play a game. said casual players often put in just a many, if not more, actual hours playing a game, just not for as long continuously. as stated somewhere else, a raider might log in 10 times for 10 hours a whack, while a casual might log in 50-60 times for 2-3 hours a whack, during the same timespan.

They want it now, and with no effort. Preferably from a vending machine so they don't even have to go out and adventure.

are you whining about raiders, casuals, or yourself?

"...few shinies in front of obsessive-compulsive players...".

The only obessive-compulsive is the whining author.

someone hand me a mirror please. i'm agreeing that we have a whiny author here, that's hating on the majority of a playerbase for no obvious reason. gertrude, be a love and get me a fresh bottle of hater-aid out of the refrigi-hater please, this person needs a refill.

"It takes hours to run these adventures, and it can take an hour to get all the people gathered for bigger runs, not to mention days in the case of rare spawns"

this is true. my wife plays wow still, with a maxed out (member-wise) guild and from watching that guild, and remembering two other raiding guilds from when i played... if you're lucky, everyone is there, and ready, in an hour's time. that's including locks summoning folks. ever notice how some folks will just farm in silithus whilst waiting, with the caveat of "summon me when everyone is actually ready"? or, are you just making up things, with no practical experience in the area (which is a more likely scenario).

More ridiculous and vastly exaggerated examples that aren't the norm, and the author bloody well knows so. Feigning ignorance isn't valid in this case.

you're right, being ignorant isn't an excuse. so do your homework.

You also bloody well know, you don't have a necessity for any of the items that raiders comes across to play your "casual" solo/group game. When you can get by more then adequately in past games, with crafted and group dropped gear. There has yet to be a game that required raid gear to succeed in the normal content available.

ever hear of pvp? do you actually pay to play a game where you CAN'T get the best 'stuff'? wow has nothing aside from stuff. stuff is the entirety of the wow goals/experience. so, because people properly prioritize things in their lives (i.e. family, friends, work, THEN a game) they should be punished by people who intentionally neglect family, friends, work, FOR a game? that makes no sense at all. children shouldn't be wasting their lives growing fat (the south park episode was hilariously on the money) and adults who DO devote that amount of time to a game in such huge chunks either have no lives, or neglect the lives they have (ever heard of eq-widows? something kaplan knew all about before helping make wow a eq-clone. seriously lass, do a little research before spouting off absurdities.)

The author even shoots him self in the foot with an early statement.

i agree, the author of this post is definitely on a roll. gertrude, did you get the hater-aid for this lass yet?

"For casual players, this phase of the game is typically when they pack their bags and move on to more entertaining pastures."

why did wow never give free trials until ooo about the time they realized that kaplan had uberly messed up with the nonstop additions of raids? why did wow all of a sudden change burning crusade from a nonstop raidfest to something without ANY 40man raids?

just pointing out something painfully obvious to thinking people... you don't change a winning formula. you change things that are costing you money... IF you're thinking and logical. of course, maybe they're stupid, and getting rid of raids is there way of saying, "o raids are uberly popular, we're making too much money--get rid of them!"

are they?

There's absolutely no reason to cater to the crowd the "author" belongs to, for that very reason that they aren't the core gamers. They aren't the gamer that will stick around for months upon months, or even years on end paying the subscription. When you jump ship so often it's not a bloody wonder now is it.

so is that why BC is losing the raids and adding solo/casual content in the place of said raids, because it's NOT catering to that crowd? oh wait, if it weren't catering to that crowd, then it'd have kept the raids... ignorance isn't an excuse, remember? lack of logical thinking isn't an excuse either. God in heaven knows that emo isn't an excuse. check kaplan's numbers from e3... less than 1% of wow's players raid (that's counting toons, not subs, i know people that rotate the toons with which they raid...) kaplan - lead wow dev - numbers on presentation at e3. hit something like google.com and do a search, then r e a d what you find. google is this search engine thing, you type in words, it searches for them.

Regardless, this so called article isn't worth the "paper" it's written, and it's futile to comment of it any further, it's bottom line laughable.

moreso is this review of the article, which is littered with fancy

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Cholayna
Originally posted by Viczar
There are already many games that cater to hardcore players, EQ, EQ2, many aspects of WoW, and Vanguard will definitely cater towards the hardcore type of player. Now, its time for a more casual friendly game. A casual game shouldn't reward time spent in game per say, where as a hardcore game should. When time-spent gives the best reward, it will never be a casual friendly game, especially when PvP is involved, because the casuals will never be able to compete with the hardcores.

So ....ummm....why play any mmo then?

i think there needs to be a redefinition of terms people use in general.

it shouldn't be casual v hardcore. the terms normally are applied to those who participate in raids and those that don't.

raider - someone who can spend 6-20 hours at a session playing a game. those who wil prioritize a game above family, friends, and work.

non-raider - someone who willfully chooses to handle a gaming addiction with intelligence -- who prioritizes family, friends and work ABOVE said game. this is someone who will spend as much, if not more, time playing than any raider, only for shorter amounts of time (say half an hour to 4 hours).

casual - someone who plays a game for under 10 hours a week. non-raiders mostly. perhaps a teeny tiny portion of raiders who gather only to work on a single raid?

hardcore - someone who plays a game for 30+ hours a week. includes raiders and non-raiders

insert name here - someone who plays between 10 and 30 hours a week. includes a small number of raiders (notably professionals irl, i.e. lawyer, doctor, etc) and non-raiders

Reklaw · December 2006

Casual players: those that rush to max lvl ,scream the end game sucks, compulsive addicted to running the same thing over and over again and scream they are hardcore, wich is true if they where playing FPS or singleplayer games

Hardcore player: those that fully enjoy every aspect of a mmorpg, are fully absorbed by the character they play, but will never be foolish enough to do the same thing over and over again.

I do not really blame only those gamers but also the game developers of losing their way and trying to say (not in these excect words afcourse) you are hardcore if you run the same thing over and over again just so that you will continue to pay your sub-fee even if the game is actualy finished.

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Balmer

It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

just to point this out... is this the latest trend? is it fashionable to now say "oh imma hardcore player, i won't ever leave this game. they should listen to us and not the ones that jump from game to game all the time."

this latest trend is just redefining 'fanboi'. but now, instead of it meaning a mindless lemming who won't desert his/her god and can't see any wrong done by his/her god... now it's supposed to mean -- imma hardcore playa! i won't neva leave this game! this game needs to give me the stuff i need!

you've said something about ignorance isn't a reason or excuse or something... smoking huge bob marley joints isn't an excuse either.

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Reklaw
Casual players: those that rush to max lvl ,scream the end game sucks, compulsive addicted to running the same thing over and over again and scream they are hardcore, wich is true if they where playing FPS or singleplayer games Hardcore player: those that fully enjoy every aspect of a mmorpg, are fully absorbed by the character they play, but will never be foolish enough to do the same thing over and over again. I do not really blame only those gamers but also the game developers of losing their way and trying to say (not in these excect words afcourse) you are hardcore if you run the same thing over and over again just so that you will continue to pay your sub-fee even if the game is actualy finished.

welp, by your definition, raiders are casual players. also by your definition raiders can never be hardcore players (repeating the same dungeon 50 times over would disallow them being hardcore).

i actually believe this is what you're pointing out. but since you didn't throw the raider tag onto it, i figured i'd help out.

Reklaw · December 2006

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by Reklaw

Casual players: those that rush to max lvl ,scream the end game sucks, compulsive addicted to running the same thing over and over again and scream they are hardcore, wich is true if they where playing FPS or singleplayer games
Hardcore player: those that fully enjoy every aspect of a mmorpg, are fully absorbed by the character they play, but will never be foolish enough to do the same thing over and over again.
I do not really blame only those gamers but also the game developers of losing their way and trying to say (not in these excect words afcourse) you are hardcore if you run the same thing over and over again just so that you will continue to pay your sub-fee even if the game is actualy finished.

welp, by your definition, raiders are casual players. also by your definition raiders can never be hardcore players (repeating the same dungeon 50 times over would disallow them being hardcore).

i actually believe this is what you're pointing out. but since you didn't throw the raider tag onto it, i figured i'd help out.

cheers, but not the complete raid thing, raids are cool and fun, but over and over again indeed foolish and definitly not hardcore.

edit earlyer post on this topic from me:

I do not blame people for thinking this cause lets face it, look at real life we are so stupid and blind to think that terrorist'm has anything to do with religion even the media is so incridible stupid to say so, holdon it gets even more messed up, those same terrorist think that what they do has anything to do with religion, how messed up is this so i completly understand the misguidens of people that think they are hardcore, in a way they are just not in the way hardcore was ment for in a MMORPG

y.o.b: 1972 might give some weight in my overall life experiance

Ancile · December 2006

Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Balmer
Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie. It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

see, you're just making up numbers. as i stated in my post, jeff kaplan (you know, lead dev for world of warcraft, that guy...) had a presentation at the last e3 show (big event, lots of gaming devs go there to show off their stuff, you might've heard of it). now, at this thing, as i stated previously, kaplan had a presentation, if you look at the presentation, he has numbers, taken directly from the game, of how many people raid.

so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following. now see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %. a calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how many raid.

feel free to apologize.

You bash him for making up numbers, but given the fact on how Blizzard calculates subscriptions I'd be hesitant to bash him if I were you.
There's a large porpotion of their subscriber base in Asia, where the norm isn't the subscription service we have in Europe, or the yanks have in the US. By far the most common way to play an MMO in Asia is at a cafe, where they pay to play for a few hours at a time, and not per a monthly basis for their account.

Your 1% means nothing in this case.

damian7 · December 2006

Originally posted by Ancile
Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Balmer
Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie. It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

see, you're just making up numbers. as i stated in my post, jeff kaplan (you know, lead dev for world of warcraft, that guy...) had a presentation at the last e3 show (big event, lots of gaming devs go there to show off their stuff, you might've heard of it). now, at this thing, as i stated previously, kaplan had a presentation, if you look at the presentation, he has numbers, taken directly from the game, of how many people raid.

so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following. now see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %. a calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how many raid.

feel free to apologize.

You bash him for making up numbers, but given the fact on how Blizzard calculates subscriptions I'd be hesitant to bash him if I were you.
There's a large porpotion of their subscriber base in Asia, where the norm isn't the subscription service we have in Europe, or the yanks have in the US. By far the most common way to play an MMO in Asia is at a cafe, where they pay to play for a few hours at a time, and not per a monthly basis for their account.

Your 1% means nothing in this case.

really?

was wow released in asia when e3 was going on? if so, how many subs were there? wasn't wow's population around the 4m mark at that time?

and it's not 1%, it's a fraction of 1%, and it's not MY numbers, it's the lead dev from blizzard, jeff kaplan's numbers.

OBVIOUSLY there's something to the numbers, otherwise

1 kaplan would still be shouting to real people, along the lines of "learn to raid noobs!!!"
2 BC would be chock full of kaplan raids

yeah, i'm wrong, kaplan's numbers are wrong... blizzard's new marketing strategy completely supports your bashing me Balmer. you're da bomb and totally in the right it seems. here's your sign!

Ancile · December 2006

Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Ancile
Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Balmer
Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie. It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

see, you're just making up numbers. as i stated in my post, jeff kaplan (you know, lead dev for world of warcraft, that guy...) had a presentation at the last e3 show (big event, lots of gaming devs go there to show off their stuff, you might've heard of it). now, at this thing, as i stated previously, kaplan had a presentation, if you look at the presentation, he has numbers, taken directly from the game, of how many people raid.

so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following. now see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %. a calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how many raid.

feel free to apologize.

You bash him for making up numbers, but given the fact on how Blizzard calculates subscriptions I'd be hesitant to bash him if I were you.
There's a large porpotion of their subscriber base in Asia, where the norm isn't the subscription service we have in Europe, or the yanks have in the US. By far the most common way to play an MMO in Asia is at a cafe, where they pay to play for a few hours at a time, and not per a monthly basis for their account.

Your 1% means nothing in this case.

really?

was wow released in asia when e3 was going on? if so, how many subs were there? wasn't wow's population around the 4m mark at that time?

and it's not 1%, it's a fraction of 1%, and it's not MY numbers, it's the lead dev from blizzard, jeff kaplan's numbers.

Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Balmer
Less
that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In
fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie. It
may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that
Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that
pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that
hits thier local Wal Mart.

see, you're just making up numbers. as i stated in my post, jeff
kaplan (you know, lead dev for world of warcraft, that guy...) had a
presentation at the last e3 show (big event, lots of gaming devs go
there to show off their stuff, you might've heard of it). now, at this
thing, as i stated previously, kaplan had a presentation, if you look
at the presentation, he has numbers, taken directly from the game, of
how many people raid.

so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following. now
see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %. a
calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how
many raid.

feel free to apologize.

Less mad ranting please.

Ancile · December 2006

Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Ancile

Steve Wilson Wrote:
It takes hours to run these adventures, and it can take an hour to get all the people gathered for bigger runs, not to mention days in the case of rare spawns

this is true. my wife plays wow still, with a maxed out (member-wise) guild and from watching that guild, and remembering two other raiding guilds from when i played... if you're lucky, everyone is there, and ready, in an hour's time. that's including locks summoning folks. ever notice how some folks will just farm in silithus whilst waiting, with the caveat of "summon me when everyone is actually ready"? or, are you just making up things, with no practical experience in the area (which is a more likely scenario).

you're right, being ignorant isn't an excuse. so do your homework.

ever hear of pvp? do you actually pay to play a game where you CAN'T get the best 'stuff'? wow has nothing aside from stuff. stuff is the entirety of the wow goals/experience. so, because people properly prioritize things in their lives (i.e. family, friends, work, THEN a game) they should be punished by people who intentionally neglect family, friends, work, FOR a game? that makes no sense at all. children shouldn't be wasting their lives growing fat (the south park episode was hilariously on the money) and adults who DO devote that amount of time to a game in such huge chunks either have no lives, or neglect the lives they have (ever heard of eq-widows? something kaplan knew all about before helping make wow a eq-clone. seriously lass, do a little research before spouting off absurdities.

It's obvious to me that you don't display any proper raiding experience outside of Blizzards WoW. Much less an MMO experience that extends further back then WoW in general.
This discussion isn't about WoW, it's about Raiding in general, and it's about the other play styles.

I suggest you go back and reread my post, as it's ever so obvious you failed to comprehend most of it with your mad ranting.

As I've said so in the previous post you quoted, it's all about management. And there's plenty of examples that people with jobs, families, and what have you are perfectly capable of managing to fit in a couple hours a night for some raiding, even in bleeding edge guilds across various games. Yours, and the authors illogical ideas that it has to take several hours/days to accomplish anything as a raid, is an aged old excuse going as far as as EQ1 raiding.
Which boils down to the (in)competence of your raid or guild leaders and the overall mentality of the guilds members.

It's about priorities in the sense that you allow plenty of time for family/GF/BF/Work/what have you, but also by having time for some R&R with computer games or other hobbies. With better time management you could suddenly free up a couple hours a night of raiding. You don't need much more then ~3 hours set aside. And that's not really that much at all.

Edit: spelling

Anofalye · December 2006

Originally posted by Balmer

Less that one percent are raiders? I find that extremely hard to believe. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that's an outright lie.
It may be closer to 15%, but that's a pretty loyal contingency that Blizzard is counting on to be around...because they're the ones that pay to play for years...not the casuals who jump at the next MMO that hits thier local Wal Mart.

It is more 5% than 15%. 15% is the amount of peoples who try to raid with more or less interest. 5% is the peoples who actually stick to raiding. To use a 15% number, you have to count peoples like me as raiders, and you really shouldn't. So, 5% of the player base is not even able to compensate regular fluctuations in the market; it is neglictable in the bigger scope. Yet, you shaft 95% of the players, some of which really HATE raiding a LOT and realize you shaft them....that is far worser than whatever meager bonuses the 5% who actually "enjoy" raiding bring to you. Also note that MOST raiders don't plan on raiding in their next MMOs, they doesn't have the time to commit to raiding or their tastes change, weither they support or not raiding is irrelevant, since they won't raid again, they won't stick to a MMO because of raiding...Raiding has a very poor retention value in the long run, as raiders, usually leave raiding.

NOW, as we speak, how much % of the servers are actually raiding? Less than 5%, way less than 5%! ACTUALLY, ATM, what are the peoples in WoW doing, it is either soloing or grouping, not raiding, raiding is never the main activity, it is having issues to break the 5% cap, it will never get anywhere close to 50% until the game has a foot in its graveyard...

Why do you think SoE is the most hated company? SWG is part of the explanation, but if I recall well, they where vastly hated prior SWG...and I don't think SWG haters are the core of SoE haters. Again, check Blizzard standing toward the public. 3 years ago, there where very few haters; some peoples might dislike or not enjoy Blizzard games, but they actually don't hate them. Now, Blizzard is rivalring SoE in hating terms and they will outmatch SoE as the top-hated company in a few years...guess what make players hate Blizzard...tic tac...tic tac...yes, it is raiding that create that hatred, this ruins a reputation, a franchise and your future...all this for a meager instant gratification that wasn't worth it...LOL.

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