I used to look forward to the release of Vanguard, but as time goes by I tend to think 'less' of it in terms as a game I would choose to play,. Mainly due to the community that surrounds this game . After reading numurous posts from their official threads which some of the people rave and hail it with such arrogance as the game of all games. When in fact it's not out and will not be out for some time. But I'll be optimistic and say that this game will be more successful than EQ and EQ II combined and far less than WOW.
Originally posted by Bakgrind I used to look forward to the release of Vanguard, but as time goes by I tend to think 'less' of it in terms as a game I would choose to play,. Mainly due to the community that surrounds this game . After reading numurous posts from their official threads which some of the people rave and hail it with such arrogance as the game of all games. When in fact it's not out and will not be out for some time. But I'll be optimistic and say that this game will be more successful than EQ and EQ II combined and far less than WOW.
i agree.
The community is bothersome to say the least.
I will only say that Vanguard is focused on building community. I think when the game releases and the masses log in for the first time the community will find a good balance.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by nakedone Originally posted by GameloadingOriginally posted by nakedone Nomatter what game comes out. WOW will still have 6 mill+ asian players. WOW will always wave this flag until the end of time. It's all they have going for them. It's thier gimmick.Join WOW now and play with 7 million other people online!!! Except that they didn't mention other Asian games have far more players, they're just not released in the U.S. and Europe so they are unheard of.They also don't mention that the majority of the 1 million U.S. and European players get bored within the first 2 months and leave or only play because there is nothing else to do.I think the U.S and European market for WOW will fall. But they will still wave that flag to attract new players.
The mention of other asian games having far more players is merely an assumptions. Most asian MMORPG's use a free to play model, and only count the accounts created, Nobody knows how many of those are still actually playing. and if we look in terms of subscribers, we see that WoW is on top with almost 8 million subscribers, the next mmorpg is Lineage, with 1,5 million players. the majority of those 1 million players got bored? You have anything to base that numbers on, or are you making pointless assumptions? I bet you do.
Show me an official link that states that there are 7mill or 8mill (of whatever the number is this week) active subs in WOW. Until you can find proof, you are assuming numbers based on units sold since it's release.
"In addition, Blizzard today announced that the subscriber base for World of Warcraft has reached a new milestone, with 7.5 million players worldwide."
" World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Very well then. WOW has 7.5MIL active subs.
Here's another question. How many are the Asian market? How many are the U.S. and European market (to include Aussies and New Zealand)?
Who the hell cares how many subscribers this and that have or wether or not vanguard will destroy wow? I mean, come on I know there are people who are just so frikkin jealous that wow is so popular but what the hell as long as the game is fun nothing else matters?
WOW would stay greater if it would just be serious. But cartoonish graphics, canned pop-culture humor, and trolls that talk like Miss Cleo all go into ruining what could be an excellent fantasy gaming experience.
I do expect WOW to retain the edge on subscriptions and it certainly is the most polished game out there. It's just not a very serious game, so it's hard to be serious about it.
To have a raid free server would require a major reworking of the core games code. Thats like asking for a raidfree wow server. And the result of asking for either will be the same... no chance in hell.
Challenging is one thing, but Brad doesn't design challenge, he designs timesinks from hell that only the masochistic enjoy. In order for there to be a challenge there would have to be alot more work done on the AI side of things, to have mobbies that acted as though they were controlled by humans. We aren't to that point yet so there is no way in hell that Vanguard will come up with it.
People seem to forget one major thing here. SOE is the house that McQuaid built. His methodologies and idealogies are what set people like Smedley on their current tracks. For Example Smedley spends an inordinate amount of time on the Fires of Heaven message boards, a guild that doesnt play SWG, and these are the people from whom smedley gets ideas from. Now you are sitting there saying so what thats smedley. http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=453
yes, but it's also Mcquaid.
Believe all they hype you want about McQuaid and Vanguard. I have seen McQuaid in action and know that he is about as honest and straighforward as any mouthpiece for sony's marketing department.
Originally posted by xplororor Originally posted by nakedone And its hard to believe that the MMO industry and the U.S. and European market went from the average of 250k-500k active accounts in major titles to 1 million upon the release of one game. The only game that compete with WOW as far as boxes sold over time, is the one who releases the game in Asia.
Here we go, another one who has no idea of the history of Blizzard. BEFORE any of the major mmorpgs ever came out, before UO, M59, and a billion years before EQ.... Blizzard already had an online presence. Blizzard was already successful. Heck, YOU right now can view the WoW trailor for free. At the very start, they say 10 YEARS . And that trailor came out when WoW came out.
While the US and European mmorpg market had roughly 1-2 million players (UO, EQ, M59, Lin1, RS). And the Asian mmorpg market had only Lineage 1, and other very minor mmorpgs like El Karidian, with roughly 1-2 million players.....
..............Blizzard during the SAME time period had 10 million (minimum) to 25 million (liberal) O-N-L-I-N-E players. Did you ever hear of Diablo 1? Diablo 2? Starcraft? Warcraft? These are some of the best ever selling computer games in history. Ancient Diablo 1 is still being sold in computer stores! The majority of Blizzard's players were not mmorpg players. All WoW simply did was attract Blizzard's already existing fanbase. WoW did not go after the existing mmorpg market - UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, M59, RS, etc... etc... The US and European mmorpg market never went from 250k-500k active accounts to 1+ million active accounts. Blizzard's online market existed longer, and seperatly from the mmorpg market for over 10 years. Blizzard's market has now come to the attention of the mmorpg market.
Need another example? CSWG. There are litterally 50+ MILLION Star Wars fans worldwide. And easily 5 million of them in the US and Europe. CSWG peaked at over 300k accounts with no end in growth, on track to reaching 5 million accounts at current time. Where did those 300k players come from? EQ, AC, UO, and other major mmorpgs showed little to no drop in accounts when CSWG came out. (Unfortunatly CSWG did sooo well, the lead game DEV got promoted and was no longer directly in charge of only CSWG. The game went brutally downhill after that starting with the Jedi Hologrindfest.)(Add the fact that it still boggles the MIND that CSWG was never advertised in a trailor before the Revenge of the Sith movie?!?!? Meanwhile EQ2, and MxO trailors were playing in movie theaters!)
STO is the only other mmorpg that has a chance at what was available to CSWG, and WoW. There are easily 5+ million Star Trek fans in the US and Europe. And easily 25+ million Star Trek fans world wide. An ALREADY existing fanbase numbering in the millions. If STO is done right, and continued to be done right, it will easily reach 1 million accounts in the first year, and rival WoW, and has an excellent chance of having more accounts than WoW. And.. without taking accounts from WoW, or other major mmorpgs. Because STO's existing fanbase exist outside of the current mmorpgs... for now.
-----------------------------------
And to the OP, you must be soo happy to see so many bite the bait you laid. All that needs to be said about Vanguard aka VG, is they only need to worry about reaching 100k accounts. That is it. If VG can do that, then it meets the definition of a bona fide successfull mmorpg. VG will then re-coupe all of its investment money. Now OP go find a mmorpg you like to play, and have some fun! Both VG and WoW will end up re-couping their investment monies. Both will be hit, successfull mmorpgs.
300k over a few years is skyrocketing ? Please !!!! Wow had 300k accounts in the first hour of it's luanch. SWG was a crappy bug ridden game that only those who were blinded by the SW brand stayed with and were rabid fans of. The game had very little to no content and the classes were highly unbalanced. Sorry but SWG was a disaster from the get go and it got worse once Lucas Arts took control over the game.
As for Vangaurd ? Sorry I don't see a game catering to the angry, anti-social, bitter, elitist ex-EQ1 players who want grind, grind grind and raid, raid, raid as formula for succes.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Originally posted by Anofalye I personnally think that Vanguard, as of now, would have problems to break 50k subscribers.
This will most likely be the true story about Vanguard. Just the rumors from people that broke the NDA plus the fact that SOE is involved have sealed this game's fate.
Originally posted by M1sf1t Originally posted by xplororor
300k over a few years is skyrocketing ? Please !!!! Wow had 300k accounts in the first hour of it's luanch. SWG was a crappy bug ridden game that only those who were blinded by the SW brand stayed with and were rabid fans of. The game had very little to no content and the classes were highly unbalanced. Sorry but SWG was a disaster from the get go and it got worse once Lucas Arts took control over the game.
As for Vangaurd ? Sorry I don't see a game catering to the angry, anti-social, bitter, elitist ex-EQ1 players who want grind, grind grind and raid, raid, raid as formula for succes. 1. CSWG reached 300k accounts during its First Year. Before CSWG came out, DAoC had the record for fastest growth in a 1 year period. Before that EQ had it. WoW fans, and non-fans still have no idea how insane EQ, DAoC, and later WoW did/are doing! A mmorpg needs a minimum of 50k accounts to have a chance in heaven or hell of re-couping its investment money. It needs 100k accounts to reach hit/successful status. With this in mind, now you, and others, can see how phenominal EQ, DAoC, then SWG all were. WoW litterally is an unnatural game that even Blizzard cannot believe exists (Blizzard was aiming for 1 million accounts for WoW.). It is like 99.99% of baseball players making 5 million to 200 million in salary. Then suddently 1 baseball player gets 1 Trillion in salary! And that player himself not understanding why he is making 1 Trillion in salary!
2. You obviously were not there during the first month CSWG (originally SWG, now known as Classic SWG since the original SWG got soo gutted it is litterally a whole new game, different from the original SWG.). When the original SWG aka now known as CSWG released, it did have plenty of content, and in no way what-so-ever was a "disaster". And more proof you were not there from the start for CSWG, LucasArts always had total control over the game from the getgo. SOE was partners with LucasArts, with LA calling the shots ultimatly. From when it was first developed back in early 2000, to when it was released, and on to present time. The game DEVs constantly commented on how they had to put every single item, every part, of the game by LucasArts first, get an OK, before they could preceed on anything.
One of the most famous or infamous, trails LucasArts left on the CSWG commmunity, is how they tried to shut down a very popular, and long-running Star Wars fansite named "Star Wars Combine". LA claimed a fan-made game was interferring with their OWN GAME SWG. And for them to "cease and dissist" the SWC. Their main programmers appealed to the rest of the CSWG community on the CSWG game forums. I helped clarify their case on the SWG forums, and LucasArts responded by backing down. (It can be amazing the power of the internet! ). The programmers at SWC helped out my character in their little game by allowing me to be the only person ever to willingly ask and recieve a full character stat re-set. This happend while SWG was still in development.. and... of course under the control of LucasArts.
3. I also see how you missed the fact that you and I are in full agreement on the success of WoW. I targeted my response to another person who was wondering where WoW's accounts came from, and was going in the direction of claiming WoW's subscription numbers are made-up.
--------------------------------
This thread is now dead lol. The OP conciously, or subconciously was trying to bait. He made yet another "(insert game here) vs WoW" thread. And many allowed theirselves to fall for it. The bottom line again is, Vanguard's only worry is not WoW, or EQ2, or any other game. VG's only worry is making 100k accounts.
The game is much deeper, more demanding, and gives the player much more to do than you will find in WoW. At the same time though it is not as user friendly, it is not as easy, and it doesn't have PvP.
I imagine we'll see a lot of players move from WoW to Vanguard, sort of like a stepping stone. Many WoW players are first time MMO players. It would be a nice step up for most of them. The non-PvP aspect and semi-forced grouping will keep many players out though. I do expect Vanguard to have a much more mature population. Without the PvP/Faction basis there is going to be less need for competition and a much stronger community as a result.
Originally posted by nakedoneVery well then. WOW has 7.5MIL active subs.Here's another question. How many are the Asian market? How many are the U.S. and European market (to include Aussies and New Zealand)?
According to mmogchart.com:
"As of June 2006, WoW has reached 6.6 million subscribers worldwide, including over 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China."
And before anyone jumps at the quote and tries to shoot it down, notice how I don't say it's 100% accurate and neither does the site.
"While I am the first to admit that the data is not always reliable, it does represent the best research in the industry to date, and it is most definitely not made up or at least, not by me."
Originally posted by Anofalye I personnally think that Vanguard, as of now, would have problems to break 50k subscribers.
This will most likely be the true story about Vanguard. Just the rumors from people that broke the NDA plus the fact that SOE is involved have sealed this game's fate.
Same here. I imagine numbers between 70k-300k within a year. Just dont think it will ever pass even 500k subscriptions. Only thing that offers some competition to WoW looks to be Warhammer.
Vanguard will not dethrone WoW in terms of suscription because its not designed for "kiddies" which make up a decent amount of the playerbase, as they will be put of by the gameplay, graphics, and interface, furthermore the game currently requires a relatively high performance computer in order to demonstrates its graphics, and "older" computer will have problems running Vanguard and the graphics are plain ugly that is if you dont posses a fairly good graphics card...
To the OP: are you currently a beta tester or are your basing your assumptions out of nowhere?
Originally posted by severius To have a raid free server would require a major reworking of the core games code. Thats like asking for a raidfree wow server. And the result of asking for either will be the same... no chance in hell.
If I would just want Vanguard to have raid-free server, I would do it on the official Vanguard forums. If I would just want WoW to do it, I would do so on their website as well.
However, by been here, other devs or would-be-devs may read. Maybe they will be influenced positively and maybe it will make a change in a future MMO, improving a future MMO.
As to saying no chance in hell, all it need to be there at launch, is Brad saying: Eh, you 2 noobs programmers, make such a server and follow these guidelines...and tada, it would work. Reworking the raiding into grouping doesn't take much time, it is polishing it...and unlike FoH-noobs, I never care about something fully polished, as long as it is FUN. And noobs programmers are likely to make something FUN from Brad's assets and hardwork, they just need to fine tune it, following some guidelines...and if you tell me that Brad is annoyed and don't follow these servers developpment much, all the better IMO! The artwork is the same, the design is slightly altered, nothing that 2 programmers with "wanna be designers" aspirations can't overcome.
However, raid-free servers MUST be there at launch, post-launch would attract a LOT less players while aggroing raiders for real, since you change the rules POST-release, but if they are present at release, raiders will get over it and join either server rules they prefer. Changing the rules AFTER release is problematic, especially to peoples with FoH-mindset. See SWG for bad impacts on changing the rules post-release.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Vangaurd greater then WoW huh... SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Vangaurd greater then WoW huh...
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Originally posted by IdesofMarch Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Vangaurd greater then WoW huh... SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion. And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype... I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
I say it really depends on Burning Crusade. However, I don't think Vanguard is gonna pull the same numbers, just be a contributer to making WoW not as popular. Primarily since its been mentioned before, the disregard for PVP. If you wanna pull in a large amount of players like 5+ million subscribers, you must have some form of competitive PVP that is well thought out and balanced. All the games that have reached that 5+ million subscriber range have had some large scale form of rewarding-pvp.
What really will sink WoW if the BC expansion sucks is all the new quality games getting released in China in 2007 which is where most of its subscribers are from.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Vangaurd greater then WoW huh...
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype... I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
2005 - The number one selling vehicle in America - Ford F series.....
Now, granted they are great trucks, they sell great they keep Ford in business, but....
If you could drive any vehicle at all - regardless of price, which would you choose... a ford truck?
Are F150s the best vehicle out on the market?
******
80% of Americans will make at least one purchase at Walmart a year.... Walmart is the largest retailer in the world, Walmart is China's second largest trade partner, behind the US as a whole...
Does that make Walmart the best store to shop at?
******
The NewYork Yankees sell more licensed product than any other sports franchise, they boast the largest payroll in MLB, does that make them the best baseball team?
***** Want me to keep going? or is the horse dead yet?
Comments
... and yes, yes I do know.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
... and yes, yes I do know.
apparently you don't
Make a difference!
i agree.
The community is bothersome to say the least.
I will only say that Vanguard is focused on building community. I think when the game releases and the masses log in for the first time the community will find a good balance.
Make a difference!
Show me an official link that states that there are 7mill or 8mill (of whatever the number is this week) active subs in WOW. Until you can find proof, you are assuming numbers based on units sold since it's release.
Sure, no problem.
http://www.blizzard.com/press/061109.shtml <- official press statement.
"In addition, Blizzard today announced that
the subscriber base for World of Warcraft has reached a new milestone, with 7.5 million players worldwide."
"
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a
subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft,
as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with
one free month access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the
game over the last thirty days are also counted as customers. The above
definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions,
expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards.
Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Very well then. WOW has 7.5MIL active subs.
Here's another question. How many are the Asian market? How many are the U.S. and European market (to include Aussies and New Zealand)?
not vanguard will destroy wow? I mean, come on I know there are people
who are just so frikkin jealous that wow is so popular but what the
hell as long as the game is fun nothing else matters?
WOW would stay greater if it would just be serious. But cartoonish graphics, canned pop-culture humor, and trolls that talk like Miss Cleo all go into ruining what could be an excellent fantasy gaming experience.
I do expect WOW to retain the edge on subscriptions and it certainly is the most polished game out there. It's just not a very serious game, so it's hard to be serious about it.
Challenging is one thing, but Brad doesn't design challenge, he designs timesinks from hell that only the masochistic enjoy. In order for there to be a challenge there would have to be alot more work done on the AI side of things, to have mobbies that acted as though they were controlled by humans. We aren't to that point yet so there is no way in hell that Vanguard will come up with it.
People seem to forget one major thing here. SOE is the house that McQuaid built. His methodologies and idealogies are what set people like Smedley on their current tracks. For Example Smedley spends an inordinate amount of time on the Fires of Heaven message boards, a guild that doesnt play SWG, and these are the people from whom smedley gets ideas from. Now you are sitting there saying so what thats smedley. http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=453
yes, but it's also Mcquaid.
Believe all they hype you want about McQuaid and Vanguard. I have seen McQuaid in action and know that he is about as honest and straighforward as any mouthpiece for sony's marketing department.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Here we go, another one who has no idea of the history of Blizzard. BEFORE any of the major mmorpgs ever came out, before UO, M59, and a billion years before EQ.... Blizzard already had an online presence. Blizzard was already successful. Heck, YOU right now can view the WoW trailor for free. At the very start, they say 10 YEARS . And that trailor came out when WoW came out.
While the US and European mmorpg market had roughly 1-2 million players (UO, EQ, M59, Lin1, RS). And the Asian mmorpg market had only Lineage 1, and other very minor mmorpgs like El Karidian, with roughly 1-2 million players.....
..............Blizzard during the SAME time period had 10 million (minimum) to 25 million (liberal) O-N-L-I-N-E players. Did you ever hear of Diablo 1? Diablo 2? Starcraft? Warcraft? These are some of the best ever selling computer games in history. Ancient Diablo 1 is still being sold in computer stores! The majority of Blizzard's players were not mmorpg players. All WoW simply did was attract Blizzard's already existing fanbase. WoW did not go after the existing mmorpg market - UO, AC, EQ, DAoC, M59, RS, etc... etc... The US and European mmorpg market never went from 250k-500k active accounts to 1+ million active accounts. Blizzard's online market existed longer, and seperatly from the mmorpg market for over 10 years. Blizzard's market has now come to the attention of the mmorpg market.
Need another example? CSWG. There are litterally 50+ MILLION Star Wars fans worldwide. And easily 5 million of them in the US and Europe. CSWG peaked at over 300k accounts with no end in growth, on track to reaching 5 million accounts at current time. Where did those 300k players come from? EQ, AC, UO, and other major mmorpgs showed little to no drop in accounts when CSWG came out. (Unfortunatly CSWG did sooo well, the lead game DEV got promoted and was no longer directly in charge of only CSWG. The game went brutally downhill after that starting with the Jedi Hologrindfest.)(Add the fact that it still boggles the MIND that CSWG was never advertised in a trailor before the Revenge of the Sith movie?!?!? Meanwhile EQ2, and MxO trailors were playing in movie theaters!)
STO is the only other mmorpg that has a chance at what was available to CSWG, and WoW. There are easily 5+ million Star Trek fans in the US and Europe. And easily 25+ million Star Trek fans world wide. An ALREADY existing fanbase numbering in the millions. If STO is done right, and continued to be done right, it will easily reach 1 million accounts in the first year, and rival WoW, and has an excellent chance of having more accounts than WoW. And.. without taking accounts from WoW, or other major mmorpgs. Because STO's existing fanbase exist outside of the current mmorpgs... for now.
-----------------------------------
And to the OP, you must be soo happy to see so many bite the bait you laid. All that needs to be said about Vanguard aka VG, is they only need to worry about reaching 100k accounts. That is it. If VG can do that, then it meets the definition of a bona fide successfull mmorpg. VG will then re-coupe all of its investment money. Now OP go find a mmorpg you like to play, and have some fun! Both VG and WoW will end up re-couping their investment monies. Both will be hit, successfull mmorpgs.
300k over a few years is skyrocketing ? Please !!!! Wow had 300k accounts in the first hour of it's luanch. SWG was a crappy bug ridden game that only those who were blinded by the SW brand stayed with and were rabid fans of. The game had very little to no content and the classes were highly unbalanced. Sorry but SWG was a disaster from the get go and it got worse once Lucas Arts took control over the game.
As for Vangaurd ? Sorry I don't see a game catering to the angry, anti-social, bitter, elitist ex-EQ1 players who want grind, grind grind and raid, raid, raid as formula for succes.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
300k over a few years is skyrocketing ? Please !!!! Wow had 300k accounts in the first hour of it's luanch. SWG was a crappy bug ridden game that only those who were blinded by the SW brand stayed with and were rabid fans of. The game had very little to no content and the classes were highly unbalanced. Sorry but SWG was a disaster from the get go and it got worse once Lucas Arts took control over the game.
As for Vangaurd ? Sorry I don't see a game catering to the angry, anti-social, bitter, elitist ex-EQ1 players who want grind, grind grind and raid, raid, raid as formula for succes.
1. CSWG reached 300k accounts during its First Year. Before CSWG came out, DAoC had the record for fastest growth in a 1 year period. Before that EQ had it. WoW fans, and non-fans still have no idea how insane EQ, DAoC, and later WoW did/are doing! A mmorpg needs a minimum of 50k accounts to have a chance in heaven or hell of re-couping its investment money. It needs 100k accounts to reach hit/successful status. With this in mind, now you, and others, can see how phenominal EQ, DAoC, then SWG all were. WoW litterally is an unnatural game that even Blizzard cannot believe exists (Blizzard was aiming for 1 million accounts for WoW.).
It is like 99.99% of baseball players making 5 million to 200 million in salary. Then suddently 1 baseball player gets 1 Trillion in salary! And that player himself not understanding why he is making 1 Trillion in salary!
2. You obviously were not there during the first month CSWG (originally SWG, now known as Classic SWG since the original SWG got soo gutted it is litterally a whole new game, different from the original SWG.). When the original SWG aka now known as CSWG released, it did have plenty of content, and in no way what-so-ever was a "disaster". And more proof you were not there from the start for CSWG, LucasArts always had total control over the game from the getgo. SOE was partners with LucasArts, with LA calling the shots ultimatly. From when it was first developed back in early 2000, to when it was released, and on to present time. The game DEVs constantly commented on how they had to put every single item, every part, of the game by LucasArts first, get an OK, before they could preceed on anything.
One of the most famous or infamous, trails LucasArts left on the CSWG commmunity, is how they tried to shut down a very popular, and long-running Star Wars fansite named "Star Wars Combine". LA claimed a fan-made game was interferring with their OWN GAME SWG. And for them to "cease and dissist" the SWC. Their main programmers appealed to the rest of the CSWG community on the CSWG game forums. I helped clarify their case on the SWG forums, and LucasArts responded by backing down. (It can be amazing the power of the internet!
3. I also see how you missed the fact that you and I are in full agreement on the success of WoW. I targeted my response to another person who was wondering where WoW's accounts came from, and was going in the direction of claiming WoW's subscription numbers are made-up.
--------------------------------
This thread is now dead lol. The OP conciously, or subconciously was trying to bait. He made yet another "(insert game here) vs WoW" thread. And many allowed theirselves to fall for it. The bottom line again is, Vanguard's only worry is not WoW, or EQ2, or any other game. VG's only worry is making 100k accounts.
The game is much deeper, more demanding, and gives the player much more to do than you will find in WoW. At the same time though it is not as user friendly, it is not as easy, and it doesn't have PvP.
I imagine we'll see a lot of players move from WoW to Vanguard, sort of like a stepping stone. Many WoW players are first time MMO players. It would be a nice step up for most of them. The non-PvP aspect and semi-forced grouping will keep many players out though. I do expect Vanguard to have a much more mature population. Without the PvP/Faction basis there is going to be less need for competition and a much stronger community as a result.
"As of June
2006, WoW has reached 6.6 million subscribers worldwide, including over 1
million in Europe and somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million in North America,
with most of the remainder in China."
And before anyone jumps at the quote and tries to shoot it down, notice how I don't say it's 100% accurate and neither does the site.
"While I am
the first to admit that the data is not always reliable, it does represent the
best research in the industry to date, and it is most definitely not made up
or at least, not by me."
Same here. I imagine numbers between 70k-300k within a year. Just dont think it will ever pass even 500k subscriptions. Only thing that offers some competition to WoW looks to be Warhammer.
Played: Quite a few Mmos
Playing: Something
Vanguard will not dethrone WoW in terms of suscription because its not designed for "kiddies" which make up a decent amount of the playerbase, as they will be put of by the gameplay, graphics, and interface, furthermore the game currently requires a relatively high performance computer in order to demonstrates its graphics, and "older" computer will have problems running Vanguard and the graphics are plain ugly that is if you dont posses a fairly good graphics card...
To the OP: are you currently a beta tester or are your basing your assumptions out of nowhere?
If I would just want Vanguard to have raid-free server, I would do it on the official Vanguard forums. If I would just want WoW to do it, I would do so on their website as well.
However, by been here, other devs or would-be-devs may read. Maybe they will be influenced positively and maybe it will make a change in a future MMO, improving a future MMO.
As to saying no chance in hell, all it need to be there at launch, is Brad saying: Eh, you 2 noobs programmers, make such a server and follow these guidelines...and tada, it would work. Reworking the raiding into grouping doesn't take much time, it is polishing it...and unlike FoH-noobs, I never care about something fully polished, as long as it is FUN. And noobs programmers are likely to make something FUN from Brad's assets and hardwork, they just need to fine tune it, following some guidelines...and if you tell me that Brad is annoyed and don't follow these servers developpment much, all the better IMO!
The artwork is the same, the design is slightly altered, nothing that 2 programmers with "wanna be designers" aspirations can't overcome.
However, raid-free servers MUST be there at launch, post-launch would attract a LOT less players while aggroing raiders for real, since you change the rules POST-release, but if they are present at release, raiders will get over it and join either server rules they prefer. Changing the rules AFTER release is problematic, especially to peoples with FoH-mindset. See SWG for bad impacts on changing the rules post-release.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Vangaurd greater then WoW huh...
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Copeland, keep it up. Sometimes I just come to this teenager hangout to see your posts.
Kepe sailing close to the wind, m8.
I say it really depends on Burning Crusade. However, I don't think Vanguard is gonna pull the same numbers, just be a contributer to making WoW not as popular. Primarily since its been mentioned before, the disregard for PVP. If you wanna pull in a large amount of players like 5+ million subscribers, you must have some form of competitive PVP that is well thought out and balanced. All the games that have reached that 5+ million subscriber range have had some large scale form of rewarding-pvp.
What really will sink WoW if the BC expansion sucks is all the new quality games getting released in China in 2007 which is where most of its subscribers are from.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
2005 - The number one selling vehicle in America - Ford F series.....
Now, granted they are great trucks, they sell great they keep Ford in business, but....
If you could drive any vehicle at all - regardless of price, which would you choose... a ford truck?
Are F150s the best vehicle out on the market?
******
80% of Americans will make at least one purchase at Walmart a year.... Walmart is the largest retailer in the world, Walmart is China's second largest trade partner, behind the US as a whole...
Does that make Walmart the best store to shop at?
******
The NewYork Yankees sell more licensed product than any other sports franchise, they boast the largest payroll in MLB, does that make them the best baseball team?
*****
Want me to keep going? or is the horse dead yet?