I do know, last time I checked, Everquest didn't reach 8 million either, no reason why Vanguard would.
So..is THIS the MMO that you were talking about that would take 70% of WoW's subscribers away?.are you SERIOUS?
Vanguard is not EQ. Why would they make EQ when EQ already exists?
Yes i'm very serious and before you say too much remember that i'm a vet of these games and when i say something i have a pretty good idea of what it takes to have a good game. I'm not some noob second life fanboi.
Actually Vanguard IS everquest with a few extra features slapped on it.. and excuse me, But I'm not exactly a newcommer to the genre either.
2005 - The number one selling vehicle in America - Ford F series..... Now, granted they are great trucks, they sell great they keep Ford in business, but.... If you could drive any vehicle at all - regardless of price, which would you choose... a ford truck? Are F150s the best vehicle out on the market?
******
80% of Americans will make at least one purchase at Walmart a year.... Walmart is the largest retailer in the world, Walmart is China's second largest trade partner, behind the US as a whole... Does that make Walmart the best store to shop at?
****** The NewYork Yankees sell more licensed product than any other sports franchise, they boast the largest payroll in MLB, does that make them the best baseball team?
*****
Want me to keep going? or is the horse dead yet?
No, not really. You can't compare those markets with the MMORPG market.
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype... I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Yeah, and you were wrong about that, so thats not really a good example.
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype... I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Yeah, and you were wrong about that, so thats not really a good example.
It seems you misunderstand.. i said it would fail, when i played it in closed beta, as in, after it was released it wouldnt survive amongst the waves in the sea of MMOs currently released. Not that it would die in closed beta, which almost never happens to a game.
I was wrong about nothing.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
SHould be interesting to see this flop harder then archlord. I know for a fact vangaurd doesnt stand a chance against WoW, but whatever, people will buy what they like.
I think your statement that it will flop harder than ArchLord is extremely silly. Vanguard on name alone is going to draw a lot more players from the start, and I see a lot of EQ vets giving Vanguard a go to see if it's what they had hoped EQ2 would have been. As for it flopping, ArchLord announced going free to play after just a few months and the forums turned into a ghost town, only now slowly rising in activity due to the forementioned announcement. Somehow I just don't see that happenening with V:SOH.
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype... I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Yeah, and you were wrong about that, so thats not really a good example.
It seems you misunderstand.. i said it would fail, when i played it in closed beta, as in, after it was released it wouldnt survive amongst the waves in the sea of MMOs currently released. Not that it would die in closed beta, which almost never happens to a game.
I was wrong about nothing.
Indeed, you said it would fail, and it didn't fail, and it seems to survive just fine amongst the waves of MMO's.
AL hasn't even been out for a year. Sorry but AL is just to much of a niche game. There already is game that is more polished then AL and offers the same type of game play and that is Lineage 2. AL can't compete against Lineage2 let alone WoW. Lets see those massive number for AL please. How long will AL sustain it's current population when better MMO's keep coming out and eventually Lineage 3 hits the seen. Not for long IMHO.
As for Vanguard the MMO I don't see it having the huge numbers even EQ1 had in it's time when EQ1 was the only player in town. Today's market is a lot more crowded and competitive so the old EQ1 style of game play that Vanguard is offering wont attract new players but just die-hard EQ1 players who still ghost around on EQ1 servers. Vanguard will eliminate and put the last nail in EQ1's coffin but at the same time dig it's own grave because that style of old game play is no longer appealing to the new wave of MMO players. People are seeking more then just mindless grinding, corpse running, and old EQ1 style raids.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
AL hasn't even been out for a year. Sorry but AL is just to much of a niche game. There already is game that is more polished then AL and offers the same type of game play and that is Lineage 2. AL can't compete against Lineage2 let alone WoW. Lets see those massive number for AL please. How long will AL sustain it's current population when better MMO's keep coming out and eventually Lineage 3 hits the seen. Not for long IMHO.
There are a load of ArchLord servers in China, the game is doing very reasonable in Korea and its doing decent in the west. Al is going just fine, And I expect numbers to grow a lot after the released of Episode 2: Season of Siege.
AL hasn't even been out for a year. Sorry but AL is just to much of a niche game. There already is game that is more polished then AL and offers the same type of game play and that is Lineage 2. AL can't compete against Lineage2 let alone WoW. Lets see those massive number for AL please. How long will AL sustain it's current population when better MMO's keep coming out and eventually Lineage 3 hits the seen. Not for long IMHO.
There are a load of ArchLord servers in China, the game is doing very reasonable in Korea and its doing decent in the west. Al is going just fine, And I expect numbers to grow a lot after the released of Episode 2: Season of Siege.
Of course it's doing decent in Asia but it is not doing anything in the West. Sorry but again Western players aren't attracted to what AL is offering if they were Lineage 2 would of been the WoW of MMO's before WoW was around. Most western players know that if you want what AL is offering then you'd be better off with Lineage 2 because at least they got most of the bugs out of the way and are now focusing mainly on adding more content. Again lets see those decent numbers in regards to Western players. Truely I could care less if tictac toe was the number one MMO in Asia because well i don't live in Asia and it doesn't effect me one bit if AL lives on in China. In the west AL is barely staying afloat and as time goes on more then likely they'll use those numbers in Asia to try to have western servers going but eventually they will go the free route or close it down like so many other failed MMO's.
Then again this isn't about AL it's about Vanguard and the impending failure that EQ1 clone of game is going face as people remember why they left EQ1 in the first place.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
AL hasn't even been out for a year. Sorry but AL is just to much of a niche game. There already is game that is more polished then AL and offers the same type of game play and that is Lineage 2. AL can't compete against Lineage2 let alone WoW. Lets see those massive number for AL please. How long will AL sustain it's current population when better MMO's keep coming out and eventually Lineage 3 hits the seen. Not for long IMHO.
There are a load of ArchLord servers in China, the game is doing very reasonable in Korea and its doing decent in the west. Al is going just fine, And I expect numbers to grow a lot after the released of Episode 2: Season of Siege.
Of course it's doing decent in Asia but it is not doing anything in the West. Sorry but again Western players aren't attracted to what AL is offering if they were Lineage 2 would of been the WoW of MMO's before WoW was around. Most western players know that if you want what AL is offering then you'd be better off with Lineage 2 because at least they got most of the bugs out of the way and are now focusing mainly on adding more content. Again lets see those decent numbers in regards to Western players. Truely I could care less if tictac toe was the number one MMO in Asia because well i don't live in Asia and it doesn't effect me one bit if AL lives on in China. In the west AL is barely staying afloat and as time goes on more then likely they'll use those numbers in Asia to try to have western servers going but eventually they will go the free route or close it down like so many other failed MMO's.
Then again this isn't about AL it's about Vanguard and the impending failure that EQ1 clone of game is going face as people remember why they left EQ1 in the first place. it doesn't really matter how good it does in the west, since the development costs are already covered by the asian releases, and the only real costs the western publisher has are staff, hosting service, stuff like that. Also, most bugs of AL are fixed. The Brumhart server is pretty much on medium population most of the time, so thats saying something that the population is actually rising. By the way, Al already is free to play. Its the new standard for asian MMORPG's.
I honestly do not see Vanguard failing within the first year, or even the second. It will not, however, take over World of Warcraft's subscription base - which, honestly, if you've ever seriously played WoW, you'd realize is a VERY good thing.
Vanguard, unlike assertions otherwise, is not EverQuest 2.5. It isn't EQ2, and it certainly isn't EQ1. That being said, I can see Vanguard taking in, easily, half of the old EverQuest 1 crowd. The game isn't as much like EverQuest as some would like, but it's areas have a nostalgic feel that old-timers would love.
Ca'ial Brael has a nice, Kelethin'ish feel, with houses and shops up in the treetops, as well as nestled down amongst the roots and boles of the trees. Graphically, it's stunning - I've not seen a prettier 'natural' themed city in any existing MMO.
Mekalia brings to mind Ak'Anon, in a way. It looks fairly industrial, and part of it is underground. It is also pretty attractive, gnome-infested or no.
Systems-wise, EverQuest 1 and 2 are so dissimilar from Vanguard as to be hard to compare. Combat-wise, sure they have similarities - all combat based games tend to, excluding, possibly, first person shooters. ALL of the games mentioned follow a similar pattern.
EverQuests system is nothing special, and nothing particularly involved. You turn on autoattack. Every now and then, you click kick. Or backstab. Or Flying Kick. Uhhuh...
Everquest 2? You click auto attack. You click, say, Jab. Then gouge to turn the wheel. The Dirty Trick to complete the wheel and stun the target.
WoW? You click auto attack. Then you spam buttons until your target is dead.
Vanguard's is similar, I suppose, to all of those. You click auto attack. If you're groupless, you use whichever abilities you have energy for, depending on the situation. You might, say, use a frost bolt to snare the target, then nuke it a few times. Or you might sneak up behind it, backstab it, and use whatever skills you think would be best - a rend type of ability or a stun or what have you.
Each is different, but in the end, basically the same.
Crafting systems? WoW doesn't have one. I don't care what anyone thinks otherwise, their system is so incredibly lazy in this department that I don't consider it a real crafting system. I was a big crafter in EQ, being a member of the 1750 club, and a big crafter in EQ2, being the first on the server to be max level in Tailoring and being the player people went to for their goods. For players like me, who enjoy crafting in games immensely, WoW is the biggest let down.
EQ1's was a trial of endurance. Clickity click EQ2's was a nice, involved system. Vanguards looks like it took EQ2's concept and built upon it massively, using the same concept of multiple qualities of end results, with an interesting way of creating the product.
As to the system spec's thing excluding 90% of the population? This is simply untrue. My roommate has beta access (this is where I am getting my data - watching her play while I raid in WoW.), and trust me when I say her computer is NOT top of the line. She has my old computer -
An ASUS A7V333 KT333 MoBo
An aMD Athlon XP 2200+ CPU
1Gig of value ram
An nVidia Geforce 4 FX 6200
and shes got a 450 watt power supply.
She runs Vanguard on High Performance settings and gets, on average, 18FPS in cities and 25FPS outside of cities. That is a more than acceptable FPS for a new game on her spec's, and when you take into account that they say the graphics system isn't completed, and hasn't been optimized for release yet, it's a more than fair FPS - period. And the game still looks beautiful on those settings. These spec's are pretty average for this day and age - you could put together a system with similar stats and pay only about 250$ USD.
That being said, I do see Vanguard doing fine. I can see it easily taking in old EQ1 players who miss their roots, and I can see it taking in disgruntled EQ2 players who, liking this sort of game, haven't gone over to the raid-fest that is WoW, or the Asian oriented games flooding the market. I can also see 25k+ subscribers coming in from WoW, as well, because, honestly, Burning Crusade is nothing more than "same ol', same ol'."
I was recently accepted in Vanguard beta and I'll just say this... it's a freakin resource hog, you need a top of the line computer to get any decent FPS, that alone will prevent it from becoming a major success.
2005 - The number one selling vehicle in America - Ford F series..... Now, granted they are great trucks, they sell great they keep Ford in business, but.... If you could drive any vehicle at all - regardless of price, which would you choose... a ford truck? Are F150s the best vehicle out on the market?
******
80% of Americans will make at least one purchase at Walmart a year.... Walmart is the largest retailer in the world, Walmart is China's second largest trade partner, behind the US as a whole... Does that make Walmart the best store to shop at?
****** The NewYork Yankees sell more licensed product than any other sports franchise, they boast the largest payroll in MLB, does that make them the best baseball team?
*****
Want me to keep going? or is the horse dead yet?
No, not really. You can't compare those markets with the MMORPG market.
Well, to a certain extend I agree you can't compare any of these markets to the MMORPG market directly across the board....there are differences in availability and price which factor into their success. (At least with the vehicle and store reference)
I will say however, that all 4 things do share one thing in common, which really was the entire point of my post, sucess in numbers or popularity does not necessarily mean the best in quality.
I have played WoW, infact my account is still active. But that really is just because there is nothing else out to play and MMORPGs are enjoyment for me and a nice way to relax at night. I know I am not alone in this, I would guess there is a handfull of people playing WoW that are waiting for the next game out.... be it AoC, WAR, Vanguard, ect....
WoW is popular for many reasons, its easy to play, it has FPS style PvP (BGs and respawn, with little to NO death penalty), you can level up fast, it has name recognition, just about any computer can run it, they have done some successful marketing, and overall its a pretty fun game. But I would argue WoW had one thing above all going for it.... It was in the right place at the right time. It took advantage of a massively inflated market which was created by its predecessors. WoW would not be where it is today without the success of EQ or DAoC. A brief look into history would reveal that WoW released during the explosion of the market, it was during a time when the computer gaming world was bracing for a flood of new MMORPG, many of which did not see the light of day or did not produce what or when they should have.
It does not mean that WoW is the best MMORPG ever made, it just means it is the most financially successful game.
In terms of total player base and revenue generated, WoW will probably not be beaten by any games coming out in the recent future. However, in terms of depth, content, and quality, I don't think it would take much to beat it. Depending on how you determine what > means I think the jury is still out.
vixyn I just had to laugh at your post. You do a good job at covering up how much you love Vanguard. Up until the point where you started talking about WoW's crafting. Then your true colors show. Who are you to say if WoW has crafting on not? Whether you believe it has crafting or not is moot. It does, no matter how much you dislike it.
Swear every post I read by some of these die-hard Vanguard fans. Sounds more and more like post by Eve-Online players. It's all fine and good you want to hype your game, but you look bad when you can't do it without. Taking pot shots at other MMORPG's that are (and in Vanguards case probably will be) more successful then your game will ever be.
As for this topic. Xplorer said all that needed to be said in this thread, with his first post.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
newbinator is right so i heard, don't think u can use the same computer that can play eq2 and wow on max setting to play vanguard. So i heard . And i would like to see vixyn's Roomate play it on max settings cause it seems to me it is a miracle from god for this to happen.
vixyn I just had to laugh at your post. You do a good job at covering up how much you love Vanguard. Up until the point where you started talking about WoW's crafting. Then your true colors show. Who are you to say if WoW has crafting on not? Whether you believe it has crafting or not is moot. It does, no matter how much you dislike it.
Swear every post I read by some of these die-hard Vanguard fans. Sounds more and more like post by Eve-Online players. It's all fine and good you want to hype your game, but you look bad when you can't do it without. Taking pot shots at other MMORPG's that are (and in Vanguards case probably will be) more successful then your game will ever be.
As for this topic. Xplorer said all that needed to be said in this thread, with his first post.
i have a 300 tailor / 300 enchanter and a 300 alchemist in WoW. sure it has crafting, just like lego construction is engineering. WoW's crafting is go farm mats... hope they drop... go farm recipies... hope they drop... once all your mats are assembled, have supper.... drink your pop, while you click create or if you're doing stacks, click create, go in the other room to stare at your wife for a couple of minutes. sure, that IS a crafting system, but it is a crafting system intended for adventurers who really don't want to craft, they just want to sell mats to those too frustrated to farm exclusively, but who see a market in the recipies they have accumulated. at least it's better than EQ's where you could craft a bunch of the stuff while you were running around PoK spamming for buffs, making your arrows.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
2005 - The number one selling vehicle in America - Ford F series..... Now, granted they are great trucks, they sell great they keep Ford in business, but.... If you could drive any vehicle at all - regardless of price, which would you choose... a ford truck? Are F150s the best vehicle out on the market?
******
80% of Americans will make at least one purchase at Walmart a year.... Walmart is the largest retailer in the world, Walmart is China's second largest trade partner, behind the US as a whole... Does that make Walmart the best store to shop at?
****** The NewYork Yankees sell more licensed product than any other sports franchise, they boast the largest payroll in MLB, does that make them the best baseball team?
*****
Want me to keep going? or is the horse dead yet?
No, not really. You can't compare those markets with the MMORPG market.
Well, to a certain extend I agree you can't compare any of these markets to the MMORPG market directly across the board....there are differences in availability and price which factor into their success. (At least with the vehicle and store reference)
I will say however, that all 4 things do share one thing in common, which really was the entire point of my post, sucess in numbers or popularity does not necessarily mean the best in quality.
I have played WoW, infact my account is still active. But that really is just because there is nothing else out to play and MMORPGs are enjoyment for me and a nice way to relax at night. I know I am not alone in this, I would guess there is a handfull of people playing WoW that are waiting for the next game out.... be it AoC, WAR, Vanguard, ect....
WoW is popular for many reasons, its easy to play, it has FPS style PvP (BGs and respawn, with little to NO death penalty), you can level up fast, it has name recognition, just about any computer can run it, they have done some successful marketing, and overall its a pretty fun game. But I would argue WoW had one thing above all going for it.... It was in the right place at the right time. It took advantage of a massively inflated market which was created by its predecessors. WoW would not be where it is today without the success of EQ or DAoC. A brief look into history would reveal that WoW released during the explosion of the market, it was during a time when the computer gaming world was bracing for a flood of new MMORPG, many of which did not see the light of day or did not produce what or when they should have.
It does not mean that WoW is the best MMORPG ever made, it just means it is the most financially successful game.
In terms of total player base and revenue generated, WoW will probably not be beaten by any games coming out in the recent future. However, in terms of depth, content, and quality, I don't think it would take much to beat it. Depending on how you determine what > means I think the jury is still out.
The point I was trying to make is that diffrent things are popular for diffrent reasons. For example, Price, This doesn't count for WoW, since WoW is just as expensive as any other MMORPG,
avaibality, Walmart for example is just about anywhere & has cheap price products. This doesn't count for WoW either.
The sport example is just bizare, you REALLY can't compare that to the gaming industry.
You say the most subscribtions don't point the quality of the game.
Yet, we see two things with WoW.
it is the biggest mmorpg in subscribers.
We also see that WoW has the best reviews of any MMORPG, along with the most awards. Surely the terms of subscribers do say something about the game.
WoW is not the only one.
look at EVE. EVE increased in terms of quality over the last couple of years, it receives good review scores everywhere. Not only that, but also the subscriber base of EVE increases.
Next is Star Wars Galaxies. The game quality became less with the NGE, as a result, we see the subscriber base of SWG drop.
Subscriber base DOES point out quality games. It shouldn't be seen as the one thing that points out quality, but a big subscriber base DOES say something about the game.
who cares , do you really want the people who seem to think WOW is so great coming to Vanguard. I know i want them to stay playing WOW . Think about it do you want all the whining little loot whores coming to vanguard and saying nerf this and that .Let the idiots stay there and pay blizzard for the dumb downed crap they made
Personally i ordered the guild edtion of vanguard and after the new years am building a new computer to play it ,my computer will already play it no problem , but its time to upgrade anyways , direct x 10 and widows vista is coming out . So yes all build a computer to play it and any other game that comes out in the next 3 years no problem
World of warcrap was the biggest letdown ive had in my gaming life , god what a overhyped, shallow , boring , repetative , no crafting will there is but only a real idiot would do it Only game ive played where even there gold was useless once you had an epic mount , and the game been so simple took me all of 3 days to farm 1000 for my epic mount Yes after playing WoW i cant see vanguard been any worse. All tell you one thing though if WoW is the best mmo', its time to stop playing mmo,s
vixyn I just had to laugh at your post. You do a good job at covering up how much you love Vanguard. Up until the point where you started talking about WoW's crafting. Then your true colors show. Who are you to say if WoW has crafting on not? Whether you believe it has crafting or not is moot. It does, no matter how much you dislike it.
Swear every post I read by some of these die-hard Vanguard fans. Sounds more and more like post by Eve-Online players. It's all fine and good you want to hype your game, but you look bad when you can't do it without. Taking pot shots at other MMORPG's that are (and in Vanguards case probably will be) more successful then your game will ever be.
As for this topic. Xplorer said all that needed to be said in this thread, with his first post.
i have a 300 tailor / 300 enchanter and a 300 alchemist in WoW. sure it has crafting, just like lego construction is engineering. WoW's crafting is go farm mats... hope they drop... go farm recipies... hope they drop... once all your mats are assembled, have supper.... drink your pop, while you click create or if you're doing stacks, click create, go in the other room to stare at your wife for a couple of minutes. sure, that IS a crafting system, but it is a crafting system intended for adventurers who really don't want to craft, they just want to sell mats to those too frustrated to farm exclusively, but who see a market in the recipies they have accumulated. at least it's better than EQ's where you could craft a bunch of the stuff while you were running around PoK spamming for buffs, making your arrows.
S/He nailed WoW's system right on the head. It is boring. It is very much not immersive. It is a massive dissappoint to those of us who love crafting in games. On a whole, it just lacks. And who am I? I'm a gamer. I'm a person who is playing the game. My opinion - thought it is a mere drop in the bucket as subscribers to WoW go (Because, yes, I am subscribed currently.) - counts as much as anyone elses does because I'm paying for the game. WoW's system just can't compare to EQ2's, or even EQ1's.
And I am as qualified to judge WoW's crafting as any other person. I have a 300 Armoursmith with all known recipes available to armoursmiths, a 300 Tailor with all recipes, a 300 Enchanter with all known recipes, and a 300 Tribal Leatherworker with all known recipes available to tribal leatherworkers. I'm not some random, WoW hating fangirl hyping Vanguard by taking 'pot shots' at WoW.
I won't deny that Vanguard is a game that I think is going to do well, and I won't deny that I will probably be playing it post-release. I won't deny that I truly believe this game has great potential and will do well. I do, however, deny being a die-hard fan. If you poke around on various forums - EQInterface, Stratics, EQ2's official forums - you'll see my posts dating back as far as 2003 where I've gone over their 'ideas' piece by piece and shredded them. I specifically tore into their Diplomacy FAQ releases back around then, as they were practically a copy/paste job of a players post on SWG of how he wished the entertainers were in that game. I didn't look at Vanguard as anything more than something of a joke until the past 5 or 6 months, when I've noted the changes to their old released info and FAQ. I should also point out that, unlike these so-called fanbois, I also am not claiming that Vanguard is going to overtake WoW.
As to my roommates system playing on max settings? That was a joke, right? Did you not note the part where I stated she played on High PERFORMANCE? Not once did I claim that she was playing on anything but. It would take a newer system than she has to do that - top of the line, I would imagine - but it certainly refutes past claims that it takes a top of the line computer to play it at all, doesn't it? She's not playing on the lowest settings, even, and has no apparent performance issues. I've watched her walk around in cities, past animated objects, through trees (jungle areas, even), and all without issue.
No real point in debating this, since it has not even been released yet. I remember hearing how Dark and Light was going to be the greatest MMO of all time before it was released, and how's it doing now? Sure you may enjoy the gameplay in beta, but upon release different type of bugs, frequent disconnects, and server lag can kill even the games with the greatest potential.
WoW appeals to so many since its simplistic and easy to learn, and isn't a nice game that Vanguard seems to be, and in the MMO market filled with adults along with children, appeal > quality of game, or so it seems in terms of WoW's success.
Nobody enjoyed the gameplay in Dark in Light Beta. Dark and Light also distributed a worm. They are also a nobody company. They also are still charging people who asked for refunds months ago. You can't compare Dark and Light with anything. Because not only was Dark and Light a bad game, it was a total scam from the get go.
Comments
So..is THIS the MMO that you were talking about that would take 70% of WoW's subscribers away?.are you SERIOUS?
Vanguard is not EQ. Why would they make EQ when EQ already exists?
Yes i'm very serious and before you say too much remember that i'm a vet of these games and when i say something i have a pretty good idea of what it takes to have a good game. I'm not some noob second life fanboi.
Actually Vanguard IS everquest with a few extra features slapped on it.. and excuse me, But I'm not exactly a newcommer to the genre either.But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Yeah, and you were wrong about that, so thats not really a good example.But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Yeah, and you were wrong about that, so thats not really a good example.It seems you misunderstand.. i said it would fail, when i played it in closed beta, as in, after it was released it wouldnt survive amongst the waves in the sea of MMOs currently released. Not that it would die in closed beta, which almost never happens to a game.
I was wrong about nothing.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
But at the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion.
And a matter of whos actually in the beta, and whos just reading the hype...
I think the game will be moderately successful and I disagreed with your statement that it would flop like ArchLord. That's my opinion.
Everything you've said has been just your opinion, is it not?
Everything posted here is opinion, i just have a knack for calling games. Hell.. i said archlord would fail way before it left closed beta, i actually said its going to start p2p and just go back to f2p with item shop like all low quality games.
Vangaurd will have a rough time keeping up with games that actually plan on brining something new to the forefront, like Age of conan. Hero's Journey, Tabula Rasa, etc. Vangaurd is comming out to compete with games like WoW.. fine, WoW is dated, and in 2k7 there are more important things to do then to beat a dead concept. Vangaurd offers nothing new, and even after experiencing the game it still holds true that it isnt even qualified to be mentioned as a game that may change soemthing.
Yeah, and you were wrong about that, so thats not really a good example.It seems you misunderstand.. i said it would fail, when i played it in closed beta, as in, after it was released it wouldnt survive amongst the waves in the sea of MMOs currently released. Not that it would die in closed beta, which almost never happens to a game.
I was wrong about nothing.
Indeed, you said it would fail, and it didn't fail, and it seems to survive just fine amongst the waves of MMO's.As for Vanguard the MMO I don't see it having the huge numbers even EQ1 had in it's time when EQ1 was the only player in town. Today's market is a lot more crowded and competitive so the old EQ1 style of game play that Vanguard is offering wont attract new players but just die-hard EQ1 players who still ghost around on EQ1 servers. Vanguard will eliminate and put the last nail in EQ1's coffin but at the same time dig it's own grave because that style of old game play is no longer appealing to the new wave of MMO players. People are seeking more then just mindless grinding, corpse running, and old EQ1 style raids.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Of course it's doing decent in Asia but it is not doing anything in the West. Sorry but again Western players aren't attracted to what AL is offering if they were Lineage 2 would of been the WoW of MMO's before WoW was around. Most western players know that if you want what AL is offering then you'd be better off with Lineage 2 because at least they got most of the bugs out of the way and are now focusing mainly on adding more content. Again lets see those decent numbers in regards to Western players. Truely I could care less if tictac toe was the number one MMO in Asia because well i don't live in Asia and it doesn't effect me one bit if AL lives on in China. In the west AL is barely staying afloat and as time goes on more then likely they'll use those numbers in Asia to try to have western servers going but eventually they will go the free route or close it down like so many other failed MMO's.
Then again this isn't about AL it's about Vanguard and the impending failure that EQ1 clone of game is going face as people remember why they left EQ1 in the first place.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Of course it's doing decent in Asia but it is not doing anything in the West. Sorry but again Western players aren't attracted to what AL is offering if they were Lineage 2 would of been the WoW of MMO's before WoW was around. Most western players know that if you want what AL is offering then you'd be better off with Lineage 2 because at least they got most of the bugs out of the way and are now focusing mainly on adding more content. Again lets see those decent numbers in regards to Western players. Truely I could care less if tictac toe was the number one MMO in Asia because well i don't live in Asia and it doesn't effect me one bit if AL lives on in China. In the west AL is barely staying afloat and as time goes on more then likely they'll use those numbers in Asia to try to have western servers going but eventually they will go the free route or close it down like so many other failed MMO's.
Then again this isn't about AL it's about Vanguard and the impending failure that EQ1 clone of game is going face as people remember why they left EQ1 in the first place. it doesn't really matter how good it does in the west, since the development costs are already covered by the asian releases, and the only real costs the western publisher has are staff, hosting service, stuff like that. Also, most bugs of AL are fixed. The Brumhart server is pretty much on medium population most of the time, so thats saying something that the population is actually rising. By the way, Al already is free to play. Its the new standard for asian MMORPG's.
Vanguard, unlike assertions otherwise, is not EverQuest 2.5. It isn't EQ2, and it certainly isn't EQ1. That being said, I can see Vanguard taking in, easily, half of the old EverQuest 1 crowd. The game isn't as much like EverQuest as some would like, but it's areas have a nostalgic feel that old-timers would love.
Ca'ial Brael has a nice, Kelethin'ish feel, with houses and shops up in the treetops, as well as nestled down amongst the roots and boles of the trees. Graphically, it's stunning - I've not seen a prettier 'natural' themed city in any existing MMO.
Mekalia brings to mind Ak'Anon, in a way. It looks fairly industrial, and part of it is underground. It is also pretty attractive, gnome-infested or no.
Systems-wise, EverQuest 1 and 2 are so dissimilar from Vanguard as to be hard to compare. Combat-wise, sure they have similarities - all combat based games tend to, excluding, possibly, first person shooters. ALL of the games mentioned follow a similar pattern.
EverQuests system is nothing special, and nothing particularly involved. You turn on autoattack. Every now and then, you click kick. Or backstab. Or Flying Kick. Uhhuh...
Everquest 2? You click auto attack. You click, say, Jab. Then gouge to turn the wheel. The Dirty Trick to complete the wheel and stun the target.
WoW? You click auto attack. Then you spam buttons until your target is dead.
Vanguard's is similar, I suppose, to all of those. You click auto attack. If you're groupless, you use whichever abilities you have energy for, depending on the situation. You might, say, use a frost bolt to snare the target, then nuke it a few times. Or you might sneak up behind it, backstab it, and use whatever skills you think would be best - a rend type of ability or a stun or what have you.
Each is different, but in the end, basically the same.
Crafting systems? WoW doesn't have one. I don't care what anyone thinks otherwise, their system is so incredibly lazy in this department that I don't consider it a real crafting system. I was a big crafter in EQ, being a member of the 1750 club, and a big crafter in EQ2, being the first on the server to be max level in Tailoring and being the player people went to for their goods. For players like me, who enjoy crafting in games immensely, WoW is the biggest let down.
EQ1's was a trial of endurance. Clickity click
As to the system spec's thing excluding 90% of the population? This is simply untrue. My roommate has beta access (this is where I am getting my data - watching her play while I raid in WoW.), and trust me when I say her computer is NOT top of the line. She has my old computer -
An ASUS A7V333 KT333 MoBo
An aMD Athlon XP 2200+ CPU
1Gig of value ram
An nVidia Geforce 4 FX 6200
and shes got a 450 watt power supply.
She runs Vanguard on High Performance settings and gets, on average, 18FPS in cities and 25FPS outside of cities. That is a more than acceptable FPS for a new game on her spec's, and when you take into account that they say the graphics system isn't completed, and hasn't been optimized for release yet, it's a more than fair FPS - period. And the game still looks beautiful on those settings. These spec's are pretty average for this day and age - you could put together a system with similar stats and pay only about 250$ USD.
That being said, I do see Vanguard doing fine. I can see it easily taking in old EQ1 players who miss their roots, and I can see it taking in disgruntled EQ2 players who, liking this sort of game, haven't gone over to the raid-fest that is WoW, or the Asian oriented games flooding the market. I can also see 25k+ subscribers coming in from WoW, as well, because, honestly, Burning Crusade is nothing more than "same ol', same ol'."
Well, to a certain extend I agree you can't compare any of these markets to the MMORPG market directly across the board....there are differences in availability and price which factor into their success. (At least with the vehicle and store reference)
I will say however, that all 4 things do share one thing in common, which really was the entire point of my post, sucess in numbers or popularity does not necessarily mean the best in quality.
I have played WoW, infact my account is still active. But that really is just because there is nothing else out to play and MMORPGs are enjoyment for me and a nice way to relax at night. I know I am not alone in this, I would guess there is a handfull of people playing WoW that are waiting for the next game out.... be it AoC, WAR, Vanguard, ect....
WoW is popular for many reasons, its easy to play, it has FPS style PvP (BGs and respawn, with little to NO death penalty), you can level up fast, it has name recognition, just about any computer can run it, they have done some successful marketing, and overall its a pretty fun game. But I would argue WoW had one thing above all going for it.... It was in the right place at the right time. It took advantage of a massively inflated market which was created by its predecessors. WoW would not be where it is today without the success of EQ or DAoC. A brief look into history would reveal that WoW released during the explosion of the market, it was during a time when the computer gaming world was bracing for a flood of new MMORPG, many of which did not see the light of day or did not produce what or when they should have.
It does not mean that WoW is the best MMORPG ever made, it just means it is the most financially successful game.
In terms of total player base and revenue generated, WoW will probably not be beaten by any games coming out in the recent future. However, in terms of depth, content, and quality, I don't think it would take much to beat it. Depending on how you determine what > means I think the jury is still out.
Swear every post I read by some of these die-hard Vanguard fans. Sounds more and more like post by Eve-Online players. It's all fine and good you want to hype your game, but you look bad when you can't do it without. Taking pot shots at other MMORPG's that are (and in Vanguards case probably will be) more successful then your game will ever be.
As for this topic. Xplorer said all that needed to be said in this thread, with his first post.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
newbinator is right so i heard, don't think u can use the same computer that can play eq2 and wow on max setting to play vanguard. So i heard
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
Well, to a certain extend I agree you can't compare any of these markets to the MMORPG market directly across the board....there are differences in availability and price which factor into their success. (At least with the vehicle and store reference)
I will say however, that all 4 things do share one thing in common, which really was the entire point of my post, sucess in numbers or popularity does not necessarily mean the best in quality.
I have played WoW, infact my account is still active. But that really is just because there is nothing else out to play and MMORPGs are enjoyment for me and a nice way to relax at night. I know I am not alone in this, I would guess there is a handfull of people playing WoW that are waiting for the next game out.... be it AoC, WAR, Vanguard, ect....
WoW is popular for many reasons, its easy to play, it has FPS style PvP (BGs and respawn, with little to NO death penalty), you can level up fast, it has name recognition, just about any computer can run it, they have done some successful marketing, and overall its a pretty fun game. But I would argue WoW had one thing above all going for it.... It was in the right place at the right time. It took advantage of a massively inflated market which was created by its predecessors. WoW would not be where it is today without the success of EQ or DAoC. A brief look into history would reveal that WoW released during the explosion of the market, it was during a time when the computer gaming world was bracing for a flood of new MMORPG, many of which did not see the light of day or did not produce what or when they should have.
It does not mean that WoW is the best MMORPG ever made, it just means it is the most financially successful game.
In terms of total player base and revenue generated, WoW will probably not be beaten by any games coming out in the recent future. However, in terms of depth, content, and quality, I don't think it would take much to beat it. Depending on how you determine what > means I think the jury is still out.
The point I was trying to make is that diffrent things are popular for diffrent reasons. For example, Price, This doesn't count for WoW, since WoW is just as expensive as any other MMORPG,avaibality, Walmart for example is just about anywhere & has cheap price products. This doesn't count for WoW either.
The sport example is just bizare, you REALLY can't compare that to the gaming industry.
You say the most subscribtions don't point the quality of the game.
Yet, we see two things with WoW.
it is the biggest mmorpg in subscribers.
We also see that WoW has the best reviews of any MMORPG, along with the most awards. Surely the terms of subscribers do say something about the game.
WoW is not the only one.
look at EVE. EVE increased in terms of quality over the last couple of years, it receives good review scores everywhere. Not only that, but also the subscriber base of EVE increases.
Next is Star Wars Galaxies. The game quality became less with the NGE, as a result, we see the subscriber base of SWG drop.
Subscriber base DOES point out quality games. It shouldn't be seen as the one thing that points out quality, but a big subscriber base DOES say something about the game.
who cares , do you really want the people who seem to think WOW is so great coming to Vanguard. I know i want them to stay playing WOW . Think about it do you want all the whining little loot whores coming to vanguard and saying nerf this and that .Let the idiots stay there and pay blizzard for the dumb downed crap they made
Personally i ordered the guild edtion of vanguard and after the new years am building a new computer to play it ,my computer will already play it no problem , but its time to upgrade anyways , direct x 10 and widows vista is coming out . So yes all build a computer to play it and any other game that comes out in the next 3 years no problem
World of warcrap was the biggest letdown ive had in my gaming life , god what a overhyped, shallow , boring , repetative , no crafting will there is but only a real idiot would do it Only game ive played where even there gold was useless once you had an epic mount , and the game been so simple took me all of 3 days to farm 1000 for my epic mount Yes after playing WoW i cant see vanguard been any worse. All tell you one thing though if WoW is the best mmo', its time to stop playing mmo,s
S/He nailed WoW's system right on the head. It is boring. It is very much not immersive. It is a massive dissappoint to those of us who love crafting in games. On a whole, it just lacks. And who am I? I'm a gamer. I'm a person who is playing the game. My opinion - thought it is a mere drop in the bucket as subscribers to WoW go (Because, yes, I am subscribed currently.) - counts as much as anyone elses does because I'm paying for the game. WoW's system just can't compare to EQ2's, or even EQ1's.
And I am as qualified to judge WoW's crafting as any other person. I have a 300 Armoursmith with all known recipes available to armoursmiths, a 300 Tailor with all recipes, a 300 Enchanter with all known recipes, and a 300 Tribal Leatherworker with all known recipes available to tribal leatherworkers. I'm not some random, WoW hating fangirl hyping Vanguard by taking 'pot shots' at WoW.
I won't deny that Vanguard is a game that I think is going to do well, and I won't deny that I will probably be playing it post-release. I won't deny that I truly believe this game has great potential and will do well. I do, however, deny being a die-hard fan. If you poke around on various forums - EQInterface, Stratics, EQ2's official forums - you'll see my posts dating back as far as 2003 where I've gone over their 'ideas' piece by piece and shredded them. I specifically tore into their Diplomacy FAQ releases back around then, as they were practically a copy/paste job of a players post on SWG of how he wished the entertainers were in that game. I didn't look at Vanguard as anything more than something of a joke until the past 5 or 6 months, when I've noted the changes to their old released info and FAQ. I should also point out that, unlike these so-called fanbois, I also am not claiming that Vanguard is going to overtake WoW.
As to my roommates system playing on max settings? That was a joke, right? Did you not note the part where I stated she played on High PERFORMANCE? Not once did I claim that she was playing on anything but. It would take a newer system than she has to do that - top of the line, I would imagine - but it certainly refutes past claims that it takes a top of the line computer to play it at all, doesn't it? She's not playing on the lowest settings, even, and has no apparent performance issues. I've watched her walk around in cities, past animated objects, through trees (jungle areas, even), and all without issue.
WoW appeals to so many since its simplistic and easy to learn, and isn't a nice game that Vanguard seems to be, and in the MMO market filled with adults along with children, appeal > quality of game, or so it seems in terms of WoW's success.
Just my two cents. Happy Holidays