Originally posted by JulianDracos There is good reason for the game to have the raid content have the best gear - if it wasn't that way then no one would go raiding!
No, that's not a good reason, unless you can justify that there's some inherently good about people raiding, which I have yet to see anyone argue. What you have there is a good reason not to include any raid content in a game at all, since it's content that's so drearily unenjoyable no one would even touch it if they didn't have to.
Now i dont think the difference should be HUGE but raid items SHOULD be better then items anyone can get.
Nope, completely and utterly wrong. Raid items SHOULD BE equal or inferior to items gotten from other types of content, since a game should not force people to decide between having fun and being second rate. Look up the word 'game' in a dictionary if you're not clear on the concept.
It's pretty telling that raiding (and the people who infest raid guilds) is so unpleasant that even the biggest proponents of raiding will only endure it if they get better loot.
Go play WOW then your being stupid not to bash you or anything but listen to yourself. You want better items for stuff thats easier to do then for stuff that is hard and takes a long time to do. Theres a reason raiding items SHOULD be better then rest because you have to invest alot of time to get them items.
I do not think the difference should be huge but you should have somewhat better items if you can commit more time and work then someone who doesnt. Now if this work is from crafting instead of raiding then you should get the item equal to raiding. But in no way should you get an item that took you 30 mins to get and expect it to be same as an item that took 4 hrs to get. If you dont wanna work to get these items then your fooling yourself thinking they should be the same quality as someone who invested time wether it be 30 mins a day for 2 weeks or 8 hrs in one night to get. And a FYI your in the minority with your opinion. I would think most people would want a better reward if they invested hrs to get it and someone else only grouped for 30 mins to get a better item.
You guys looking at Vanguard, seriously consider it and try it out and dont go off of the opinions of people who know nothing or have some distorted view of it. Base it on your own expierence in game. Vanguard wont have the BEST items only in raiding, youll get better items crafting then in some raids, or thru diplomacy. Youll get some group items that are better then crafting items. But one thing you will not do is get a WOW game where you spent 30 mins and get the best item in the game. You will have to invest your time wether it be 30 mins a day or 5 hrs a day. You wont get there without working for it, nothing will be given to you.
One more thing, No matter what game you play people who play more will always progress faster, and generally have better items quicker. This is no different in any game ive ever played. The hardcore guys always progress faster. If you want a game that requires no work to progress then Vanguard isnt for you. The devs want you to work to feel a sense of accomplishment for what youve gotten.
My question to those who hate raiding and think the items are too good is... If you like to play the game so much, why can you only invest 30 mins of time into it? I have a girlfriend, job, college, and a white water kayaking hobbie and I still find the time to raid somewhere, I enjoy it... with a 3.8 GPA halfway through my junior year... It must be that you don't really like the game, or your trying to make money off of it. Go find a quick little fps game like counterstrike where everyone has an equal chance, take one head shot, sigh and move on to whatever is more important!
The question shouldn't be will vanguard require me to raid to get the best gear, it should be, what do I LIKE the most in an mmorpg, and which one HAS that.
Vanguard is built to be an epic mmorpg, without raiding, what would make it epic?
Yes it will be like EQ1 a lot more than EQ2 was. Read the FAQ on vanguardsagaofheros.com
If you like crafting, it looks like your great items can also come from there... They don't fall from trees, items have to have some price...
There is good reason for the game to have the raid content have the best gear - if it wasn't that way then no one would go raiding!
No, that's not a good reason, unless you can justify that there's some inherently good about people raiding, which I have yet to see anyone argue. What you have there is a good reason not to include any raid content in a game at all, since it's content that's so drearily unenjoyable no one would even touch it if they didn't have to.
I do not think you understood my point. If you put in Raid content that had the same rewards you could get by grouping, then no one would go on raids. So, if you are a game developer that wants raids you are going to have to make the best rewards gained by raiding. I am not saying there should or should not be raiding, just explaining why if you are going to have raid content then it needs to be this way. If not, you have an entire area of the game most people will never play. This could be a reason to not have raid content, but that is not something I wish to get into.
For the record, I hate raids. I find them boring. I hate having to structure my life around a game. I used to play EQ - before SOE totally took them over. I came to realize how much this game sucked ass. I think the developers of Vanguard are insane or idiots. Given that Brad is the person behind the game, then I think this is going to be a pos game. The fact that it is meant to be EQ on hard mode just makes me hate it worse. I hope that Vanguard is the biggest flop on mmo history and no one every hires him or any EQ designer ever again. EQ was an important tranisition game, but almost anything is better than the model he set up, and the raid content that SOE latter added.
There is good reason for the game to have the raid content have the best gear - if it wasn't that way then no one would go raiding!
No, that's not a good reason, unless you can justify that there's some inherently good about people raiding, which I have yet to see anyone argue. What you have there is a good reason not to include any raid content in a game at all, since it's content that's so drearily unenjoyable no one would even touch it if they didn't have to.
I do not think you understood my point. If you put in Raid content that had the same rewards you could get by grouping, then no one would go on raids. So, if you are a game developer that wants raids you are going to have to make the best rewards gained by raiding. I am not saying there should or should not be raiding, just explaining why if you are going to have raid content then it needs to be this way. If not, you have an entire area of the game most people will never play. This could be a reason to not have raid content, but that is not something I wish to get into.
For the record, I hate raids. I find them boring. I hate having to structure my life around a game. I used to play EQ - before SOE totally took them over. I came to realize how much this game sucked ass. I think the developers of Vanguard are insane or idiots. Given that Brad is the person behind the game, then I think this is going to be a pos game. The fact that it is meant to be EQ on hard mode just makes me hate it worse. I hope that Vanguard is the biggest flop on mmo history and no one every hires him or any EQ designer ever again. EQ was an important tranisition game, but almost anything is better than the model he set up, and the raid content that SOE latter added.
...so then why do you care if this game has raids? its obviously not for you, why do you punish it? i like raids, they are making this game so that people like ME (who enjoy raiding and grouping) will by it. if you like solo play, you can play WoW or conan or WAR.
and who said EQ on hard mode was bad? EQ did pretty good for itself i woud say...
Originally posted by Markn12 Go play WOW then your being stupid not to bash you or anything but listen to yourself.
Telling someone who hates raiding to go play WOW really says it all about who's being stupid here, since WOW is a raiding game.
You want better items for stuff thats easier to do then for stuff that is hard and takes a long time to do.
Raiding is not hard, it's just boring, annoying, and requires treating a game like a job. I know raiders believe that raiding takes elite skills, but following a simple script like 'keep pressing 2, then when he does the blue attack stand there and press 3, then move back on the red attack' is not actually that difficult. The hardest part of raiding is withstanding the boring repetitive
Theres a reason raiding items SHOULD be better then rest because you have to invest alot of time to get them items... If you dont wanna work to get these items then your fooling yourself thinking they should be the same quality as someone who invested time wether it be 30 mins a day for 2 weeks or 8 hrs in one night to get. And a FYI your in the minority with your opinion. I would think most people would want a better reward if they invested hrs to get it and someone else only grouped for 30 mins to get a better item.
This is about raiding versus not raiding, not about total time invested. Please try to keep up if you're going to fling around insults about people's intelligence, I was discussing only raiding versus not raiding, nothing about time required. While I think the 'time = reward' bit in MMOs is pretty moronic (should 30 minutes of challenging stuff provide less reward than 8 hours of spamming one key?), it's irrelevant here - the discussion is about raiding or not.
Now if this work is from crafting instead of raiding then you should get the item equal to raiding.
That's not the case in WOW, EQ, or (according to the devs) in Vanguard. If you don't raid those games, your gear will be worse than the gear of people who do, it's as simple as that.
You guys looking at Vanguard, seriously consider it and try it out and dont go off of the opinions of people who know nothing or have some distorted view of it.
The lead developer has explicitly said that if you want a set of the best gear in the game, you will have to raid, and has gone on and on about why he thinks raiding should be better rewarded. I don't think he has a distorted view of his own game.
Vanguard wont have the BEST items only in raiding, youll get better items crafting then in some raids, or thru diplomacy. Youll get some group items that are better then crafting items.
However, when you assemble a set of gear you will discover that some of the best items come only from raids, and are faced with the choice of 'raid or be second rate'.
But one thing you will not do is get a WOW game where you spent 30 mins and get the best item in the game.
The best items currently in WOW drop from the end bosses in Naxx, it's not even possible for raid guilds who have been running BWL, AQ, and MC for months to clear Naxx in a half hour, much less people in general. Do you actually know anything about WOW, or do you just use it like a swear word?
Originally posted by JulianDracos I do not think you understood my point.
I understood it perfectly. You said "There is good reason for the game to have the raid content have the best gear - if it wasn't that way then no one would go raiding!", but 'no one would go raiding' is not a bad thing in and of itself, only if you add a condition like:
So, if you are a game developer that wants raids you are going to have to make the best rewards gained by raiding.
which was not in your original comment. It's only a "good reason" if for some reason you think raiding is a good thing, like I said before. Your adding the condition 'if you're a game developer that wants raids and wants people to go on them' only serves to highlight the problem that most people don't actually like raids.
Originally posted by teldath ...so then why do you care if this game has raids? its obviously not for you, why do you punish it?
I know I discuss the role of raiding in games so that people who don't like raiding don't get suckered into the game.
i like raids,
If they made the game so that there were raids but you could get the exact same rewards from grouping, would you raid at all? If the answer is no, then I don't believe that you actually like raiding. You may like attendant stuff, like being able to boss people around in a guild or being able to strut around with gear that people who don't join raid guilds can't get, but not the actual gameplay.
if you like solo play, you can play WoW or conan or WAR.
WOW is a raid game. Do you guys just use WOW like a swear word without worrying about whether what you say makes sense?
Originally posted by TaerinX My question to those who hate raiding and think the items are too good is... If you like to play the game so much, why can you only invest 30 mins of time into it?
My question to you is do you understand basic logic? Becaue I hate raiding with a passion, yet the majority of my gaming sessions are longer than 30 minutes, and looking back I haven't made a single complaint about things taking longer than 30 minutes. Your question doesn't make any sense, since the thing I (and others like Anofalaye) hate is RAIDING, not 'more than 30 minutes of play'.
Vanguard is built to be an epic mmorpg, without raiding, what would make it epic?
A mob of people following a script to bring down a really dumb boss is not epic; raiding certainly doesn't bring an epic feel to a game. If one looks to literature that people consider epic, there is a distinct lack of anything remotely like an MMORPG raid. There may be huge (as in tens of thousands, not 50) armies, and there may be a few main characters with some generic cannon fodder, but there's nothing where there are several dozen equally important characters forming a group to take down an enemy.
I think Lord of the Rings is a pretty epic story, and there's not a single MMORPG-style raid in the whole series (books or movies).
...so then why do you care if this game has raids? its obviously not for you, why do you punish it?
I know I discuss the role of raiding in games so that people who don't like raiding don't get suckered into the game.
i like raids,
If they made the game so that there were raids but you could get the exact same rewards from grouping, would you raid at all? If the answer is no, then I don't believe that you actually like raiding. You may like attendant stuff, like being able to boss people around in a guild or being able to strut around with gear that people who don't join raid guilds can't get, but not the actual gameplay.
if you like solo play, you can play WoW or conan or WAR.
WOW is a raid game. Do you guys just use WOW like a swear word without worrying about whether what you say makes sense?
1. no you dont, the lines "i hope this game floops hard" has nothing to do with people getting "suckered in"
2. i played FFXI, the raids there had little reward for me at all (BLM), Raiding is about guild pride, not about gear, gear that you get from raiding isnt about the stats its about the rarity and the value. no, i would not raid is the rewards where the same, because then they would not hold the value and pride. But, even if they where just a little bit better, i would raid.
3. levels 1-60 in wow are solo, the rep grind is solo, and 90% of the quests are solo. it has 6 raids in the entire game.
imo those that don't like to do raid content because it seems too much like work, or that it forces them to play in a way they do not enjoy. Is the same as those that used game sharks/ game genies to get to the end content or special features of a game. those that want the extra's a game has to offer should have to work for them in some facility. having raid content open for groups would make the work it takes to get a good raid together and spend time learning the target utterly pointless. why would we spend 4 weeks learning a raid event when i could just get a group and go get it with fewer people and less difficulty? this whole concept make no sense to me. Not in every game do i go for raid content, i dont need the best drops available. If your were to just be happy with what you were willing to work for you would probally not feel the same about raiding. they only other option is to find a game not item centric!
Originally posted by teldath 1. no you dont, the lines "i hope this game floops hard" has nothing to do with people getting "suckered in"
A. I didn't say that line, so I'm not sure what possible relevance it has. B. Even if I did say that line, there's no contradiction between wanting a game to flop hard and wanting people to know the actual facts about the game.
2. i played FFXI, the raids there had little reward for me at all (BLM), Raiding is about guild pride, not about gear, gear that you get from raiding isnt about the stats its about the rarity and the value.no, i would not raid is the rewards where the same, because then they would not hold the value and pride. But, even if they where just a little bit better, i would raid.
Yep, exactly as I thought. It has nothing to do with actually playing raids, and you wouldn't choose that playstyle on its own. The gameplay in raids is so bad that even you, an ardent raid defender, would not raid were it not for the gear. It IS about the gear if you wouldn't raid without the gear, whether you want to admit it or not.
3. levels 1-60 in wow are solo, the rep grind is solo, and 90% of the quests are solo. it has 6 raids in the entire game.
And at 60, all of the best gear comes from raids, the nonraid gear isn't even close. Plus the time to go 1-60 and complete the solo quests is far less than the time it would take to complete the raids. You guys pretending like WOW isn't a raid game just makes you look foolish, it doesn't help your arugment.
Originally posted by skeezixs imo those that don't like to do raid content because it seems too much like work, or that it forces them to play in a way they do not enjoy. Is the same as those that used game sharks/ game genies to get to the end content or special features of a game.
No, it's just people that play games they actually find enjoyable. Only someone with full-on raider brain damage could consider "I want a game to be fun to play" to be equivalent to "I want to skip past the actual gameplay".
why would we spend 4 weeks learning a raid event when i could just get a group and go get it with fewer people and less difficulty? this whole concept make no sense to me.
Yes, it's called raider brain damage. The concept of playing games that are fun is simply beyond your grasp, and the idea that stuff in a game should be enjoyable isn't even comprehensible, neither is the idea that you should be playing with people that you enjoy playing with.
First to Gatheris, no crafted items can't substitute for raided gear. If you read the Vanguard FAQ what they go to some lengths to explain is that to get fully decked out with the best gear will require players to raid a bit, solo a bit, group a bit and craft a bit. Each method will get you different bits of gear. The developers' goal is to make the end-game a bit more varied.
Second, to the point that game developers have to put all the best gear in raid dungeons or no-one would raid - I MUST pose the question, why do you play? I play to have fun and if the content is fun then I enjoy it. I really enjoyed WoW getting to 60 (several times). What I loathed about WoW's end-game was it's very narrow focus - which happened to be on raids. You ended up running the same raid instances over and over and over and over with a fairly tiny chance in any given raid of getting any 'reward'. I'm not a masochist. If I want to perform repetitive actions with little chance of reward I'll go to work.
I think what they're aiming for in Vanguard is good. They're taking the 'healthy balance' route.
Second, to the point that game developers have to put all the best gear in raid dungeons or no-one would raid - I MUST pose the question, why do you play?
I play for challenge, and to meet other people who love to tackle a challenge. I play for stimulation.
I do not consider raids challenging. The only thing challenging about a raid is keeping my eyes open.
I don't like people in raiding guilds. Most of them only care about one thing; singing on at raid time. Never see them any other time.
The problem with raid obtained gear, as has been said thousands of times in this thread, is it imbalances the game.
Look at EQ. Mobs are quadding for over 2000 now. That's a mob a group is expected to kill. No one but dedicated raiders can kill the mobs in EQ nowadays. Raid gear has killed the EQ grouping game, because the devs have to make the regular mobs stronger to challenge raiders. I can't enjoy EQ any longer, because of the obscene rewards handed out at raids. Its impossible not to be a raider and enjoy EQ post-75.
I used to play EQ 35-50 hours a week. I just didn't raid. I would rather stimulate my mind then stare blankly at the screen for 5-8 hours. I'm very willing to put time into a game. Just not boring time. I expect to be stimulated, and raiding is far from stimulating.
To any of you idiots who think raiding is easy or doesnt require work. Lead a raid once, Go back to EQ and beat Sullon Zek or Performer on the 50th try let alone the 1st. These raids require skill not dps, not the best tanks not the best stats. But skill and work. Raids are NOT just sitting there doing nothing. If your in the guild leadership area you do more work then your own job reading about strategy on these raids, wiping 20 times just to beat it once out of pure luck, learning from every experience and getting better. EQ Raiding is not the same as the POP days where it was click attack and thats it.
Id also say my WOW bashing is as it is. I hate WOW and will say it, the game does nothing to the idiots who suck, you dont have to have any skill or thought to play the game.
To the person who said brad has said the best items come from raids, your reading half a sentence and i encourage you to read everything he has said., Vanguard WILL NOT be a raid only game, the best items will NOT ONLY come from raiding but will come from all 3 spheres, adventure, crafting, diplomacy. Read about it before you speak and dont just read 2 sentences and get bored.
I don't think you "players" truly understand what you think is "fun". Whine Whine Whine "We want content, end-game pvp, and player run" who-ha. Now what would really be fun is a restrictive world that have graphics that look like a 10 year old did them, with 7k man raid dungeons. You will need just enough people so you cannot even move from the lag spike from our completely un-optimized game.
WoW raiding as it stands completely sucks, I've lead raids, I've been the loot master and I can tell you one thing about it..It is the MOST stressfull thing I have EVER had to do in my gaming history. Nearly everyone who had lead a raid from my guild by the end of the night was that damn annoied at: People going AFK mid boss fight and then coniserendly turning back up just when their item drops, the squabbles over the loot itself, the fact it took 7 attemps to do the simplest task.. I can list things forever..
The other end of the line is not that good either, I've been MT, Healer and Caster DPS and they are completely boring, whats worse you have all these 'skills' to level with and by the time 'raiding' hits it boils down to amost one skill a fight, hybrids just boil down to heal/cleanse spamming so why are they 'hybrids' in the first place? Basically put WoW should only really have Warrior (Tank), Priest (healer), and Mage (DPS) cuz thats basically all you actally need.. Also wheres the 'skill in raiding' a hear lots about? Theres almost no thinking required by most raiding groups as all most raids do is follow a pre-written battle plan players already know what to do and what to expect as the 'skillful' raiding groups have done all the donkey work for them, they do all the thinking and planning for you, all you have to do is stand where you are told and hit the required button for that boss/mob..
The only ever 'fun' in WoW raiding atm is the loot reward itself IMO, no ofference to anyone but if you havn't lead a raid or loot mastered or gone into a raiding situation blind you barely have to do anything, your 'fun' is the shiny prize at the end, for the people who do those jobs raiding = work... period, WoW may have had the right idea to begin with but being with 40 people for up to 6 hours per night of raiding with only lets say 20-ish usefull items shouldn't really be anyone's idea of 'fun'.. It's more like Christmas shopping with everyone trying to grab the only turkey in the store. People will fight and people will be carrying a large chunk of the raid throughout the night. I have never seen a raid in WoW were everyone was actally doing their 'job' and everyone got along.
All in all, yes raiding is a nessercery tool/game style, but if TBC or any game follows this current 'WoW Raiding' style it's certainly not a fun game to play for some people. Throw out this 'on mass' raiding numbers scale it down, make most of the 'skills' aviable to the raid actally needed for the 'raid' if its intened to be 'end game content', and either ban 'guides' or make encounters hard to predict and THEN raiding can be classed as both 'fun' and 'skillfull'
Killer sword X exists in game. Sword X is only obtainable by a hard/long solo quest. Same sword is available at the end of a hard/long 40 man raid, only at the end of the raid, the reward is 40 sword Xs (Not 1 or 2). No one loses, everyone has a blast, both solo and social players are satisfied, EVERYONE WINS!
I have read most of this thread and have been enlightened on things I haven’t thought much about, and have sparked some concerns to me as well. I normally have a low vocal on gaming forums and opinions, but I can respect the points Pantastic and others are trying to convey with likes/dislikes to raiding and how it enviably ruins a game with its flow of high-end, high stats gear, which can throw the whole game into a high-end only game.
But something I recall reading somewhere about the 20% raid content gear would be useful on certain raid content only and not worth much on regular content…I will see if I can locate this comment…it could have been one of those backseat designer posts or a dream.../shrug.
With Vanguard promoting itself as item centric, it would not surprise me to see this type of gear showing up from raid content, Sigil has committed to “learning from past mistakes” Might they have this portion covered and the fears of someone like Pantastic be revealed to be unwarranted?
So if “Best gear” is from Raid or items taking from raids to craft only to be used on content/mobs found in raids. Mobs will be affected by different type of weapons, spells, attacks are not unheard of and Vanguard I believe will have this on regular content. Will this change some thinking on how raiding will be done in Vanguard, and how it effects the economy, game play, community, game evolution, elitism, guilds…*gasp*…grouping?
Would be a interesting twist to raiding for sure.
edit* "is done" to "will be done" : game isnt out yet
Comments
No, that's not a good reason, unless you can justify that there's some inherently good about people raiding, which I have yet to see anyone argue. What you have there is a good reason not to include any raid content in a game at all, since it's content that's so drearily unenjoyable no one would even touch it if they didn't have to.
Nope, completely and utterly wrong. Raid items SHOULD BE equal or inferior to items gotten from other types of content, since a game should not force people to decide between having fun and being second rate. Look up the word 'game' in a dictionary if you're not clear on the concept.
It's pretty telling that raiding (and the people who infest raid guilds) is so unpleasant that even the biggest proponents of raiding will only endure it if they get better loot.
Go play WOW then your being stupid not to bash you or anything but listen to yourself. You want better items for stuff thats easier to do then for stuff that is hard and takes a long time to do. Theres a reason raiding items SHOULD be better then rest because you have to invest alot of time to get them items.
I do not think the difference should be huge but you should have somewhat better items if you can commit more time and work then someone who doesnt. Now if this work is from crafting instead of raiding then you should get the item equal to raiding. But in no way should you get an item that took you 30 mins to get and expect it to be same as an item that took 4 hrs to get. If you dont wanna work to get these items then your fooling yourself thinking they should be the same quality as someone who invested time wether it be 30 mins a day for 2 weeks or 8 hrs in one night to get. And a FYI your in the minority with your opinion. I would think most people would want a better reward if they invested hrs to get it and someone else only grouped for 30 mins to get a better item.
You guys looking at Vanguard, seriously consider it and try it out and dont go off of the opinions of people who know nothing or have some distorted view of it. Base it on your own expierence in game. Vanguard wont have the BEST items only in raiding, youll get better items crafting then in some raids, or thru diplomacy. Youll get some group items that are better then crafting items. But one thing you will not do is get a WOW game where you spent 30 mins and get the best item in the game. You will have to invest your time wether it be 30 mins a day or 5 hrs a day. You wont get there without working for it, nothing will be given to you.
One more thing, No matter what game you play people who play more will always progress faster, and generally have better items quicker. This is no different in any game ive ever played. The hardcore guys always progress faster. If you want a game that requires no work to progress then Vanguard isnt for you. The devs want you to work to feel a sense of accomplishment for what youve gotten.
sorry, if someone already said:
1. wait for releaee
2. happy new year
My question to those who hate raiding and think the items are too good is... If you like to play the game so much, why can you only invest 30 mins of time into it? I have a girlfriend, job, college, and a white water kayaking hobbie and I still find the time to raid somewhere, I enjoy it... with a 3.8 GPA halfway through my junior year... It must be that you don't really like the game, or your trying to make money off of it. Go find a quick little fps game like counterstrike where everyone has an equal chance, take one head shot, sigh and move on to whatever is more important!
The question shouldn't be will vanguard require me to raid to get the best gear, it should be, what do I LIKE the most in an mmorpg, and which one HAS that.
Vanguard is built to be an epic mmorpg, without raiding, what would make it epic?
Yes it will be like EQ1 a lot more than EQ2 was. Read the FAQ on vanguardsagaofheros.com
If you like crafting, it looks like your great items can also come from there... They don't fall from trees, items have to have some price...
In games that price is time...
In answer to the original question, the previously mentioned FAQ goes into great detail to answer this.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/faq.php?eid=11&faqid=11&ptext=Items+and+the+Player+Driven+Economy
11.13
No, that's not a good reason, unless you can justify that there's some inherently good about people raiding, which I have yet to see anyone argue. What you have there is a good reason not to include any raid content in a game at all, since it's content that's so drearily unenjoyable no one would even touch it if they didn't have to.
I do not think you understood my point. If you put in Raid content that had the same rewards you could get by grouping, then no one would go on raids. So, if you are a game developer that wants raids you are going to have to make the best rewards gained by raiding. I am not saying there should or should not be raiding, just explaining why if you are going to have raid content then it needs to be this way. If not, you have an entire area of the game most people will never play. This could be a reason to not have raid content, but that is not something I wish to get into.
For the record, I hate raids. I find them boring. I hate having to structure my life around a game. I used to play EQ - before SOE totally took them over. I came to realize how much this game sucked ass. I think the developers of Vanguard are insane or idiots. Given that Brad is the person behind the game, then I think this is going to be a pos game. The fact that it is meant to be EQ on hard mode just makes me hate it worse. I hope that Vanguard is the biggest flop on mmo history and no one every hires him or any EQ designer ever again. EQ was an important tranisition game, but almost anything is better than the model he set up, and the raid content that SOE latter added.
see the faq. 11.13 and 11.13.1
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/faq.php?eid=11&faqid=11&ptext=Items+and+the+Player+Driven+Economy
No, that's not a good reason, unless you can justify that there's some inherently good about people raiding, which I have yet to see anyone argue. What you have there is a good reason not to include any raid content in a game at all, since it's content that's so drearily unenjoyable no one would even touch it if they didn't have to.
I do not think you understood my point. If you put in Raid content that had the same rewards you could get by grouping, then no one would go on raids. So, if you are a game developer that wants raids you are going to have to make the best rewards gained by raiding. I am not saying there should or should not be raiding, just explaining why if you are going to have raid content then it needs to be this way. If not, you have an entire area of the game most people will never play. This could be a reason to not have raid content, but that is not something I wish to get into.
For the record, I hate raids. I find them boring. I hate having to structure my life around a game. I used to play EQ - before SOE totally took them over. I came to realize how much this game sucked ass. I think the developers of Vanguard are insane or idiots. Given that Brad is the person behind the game, then I think this is going to be a pos game. The fact that it is meant to be EQ on hard mode just makes me hate it worse. I hope that Vanguard is the biggest flop on mmo history and no one every hires him or any EQ designer ever again. EQ was an important tranisition game, but almost anything is better than the model he set up, and the raid content that SOE latter added.
...so then why do you care if this game has raids? its obviously not for you, why do you punish it? i like raids, they are making this game so that people like ME (who enjoy raiding and grouping) will by it. if you like solo play, you can play WoW or conan or WAR.
and who said EQ on hard mode was bad? EQ did pretty good for itself i woud say...
Telling someone who hates raiding to go play WOW really says it all about who's being stupid here, since WOW is a raiding game.
Raiding is not hard, it's just boring, annoying, and requires treating a game like a job. I know raiders believe that raiding takes elite skills, but following a simple script like 'keep pressing 2, then when he does the blue attack stand there and press 3, then move back on the red attack' is not actually that difficult. The hardest part of raiding is withstanding the boring repetitive
This is about raiding versus not raiding, not about total time invested. Please try to keep up if you're going to fling around insults about people's intelligence, I was discussing only raiding versus not raiding, nothing about time required. While I think the 'time = reward' bit in MMOs is pretty moronic (should 30 minutes of challenging stuff provide less reward than 8 hours of spamming one key?), it's irrelevant here - the discussion is about raiding or not.
That's not the case in WOW, EQ, or (according to the devs) in Vanguard. If you don't raid those games, your gear will be worse than the gear of people who do, it's as simple as that.
The lead developer has explicitly said that if you want a set of the best gear in the game, you will have to raid, and has gone on and on about why he thinks raiding should be better rewarded. I don't think he has a distorted view of his own game.
However, when you assemble a set of gear you will discover that some of the best items come only from raids, and are faced with the choice of 'raid or be second rate'.
The best items currently in WOW drop from the end bosses in Naxx, it's not even possible for raid guilds who have been running BWL, AQ, and MC for months to clear Naxx in a half hour, much less people in general. Do you actually know anything about WOW, or do you just use it like a swear word?
I understood it perfectly. You said "There is good reason for the game to have the raid content have the best gear - if it wasn't that way then no one would go raiding!", but 'no one would go raiding' is not a bad thing in and of itself, only if you add a condition like:
which was not in your original comment. It's only a "good reason" if for some reason you think raiding is a good thing, like I said before. Your adding the condition 'if you're a game developer that wants raids and wants people to go on them' only serves to highlight the problem that most people don't actually like raids.
I know I discuss the role of raiding in games so that people who don't like raiding don't get suckered into the game.
If they made the game so that there were raids but you could get the exact same rewards from grouping, would you raid at all? If the answer is no, then I don't believe that you actually like raiding. You may like attendant stuff, like being able to boss people around in a guild or being able to strut around with gear that people who don't join raid guilds can't get, but not the actual gameplay.
WOW is a raid game. Do you guys just use WOW like a swear word without worrying about whether what you say makes sense?
My question to you is do you understand basic logic? Becaue I hate raiding with a passion, yet the majority of my gaming sessions are longer than 30 minutes, and looking back I haven't made a single complaint about things taking longer than 30 minutes. Your question doesn't make any sense, since the thing I (and others like Anofalaye) hate is RAIDING, not 'more than 30 minutes of play'.
A mob of people following a script to bring down a really dumb boss is not epic; raiding certainly doesn't bring an epic feel to a game. If one looks to literature that people consider epic, there is a distinct lack of anything remotely like an MMORPG raid. There may be huge (as in tens of thousands, not 50) armies, and there may be a few main characters with some generic cannon fodder, but there's nothing where there are several dozen equally important characters forming a group to take down an enemy.
I think Lord of the Rings is a pretty epic story, and there's not a single MMORPG-style raid in the whole series (books or movies).
I know I discuss the role of raiding in games so that people who don't like raiding don't get suckered into the game.
If they made the game so that there were raids but you could get the exact same rewards from grouping, would you raid at all? If the answer is no, then I don't believe that you actually like raiding. You may like attendant stuff, like being able to boss people around in a guild or being able to strut around with gear that people who don't join raid guilds can't get, but not the actual gameplay.
WOW is a raid game. Do you guys just use WOW like a swear word without worrying about whether what you say makes sense?
1. no you dont, the lines "i hope this game floops hard" has nothing to do with people getting "suckered in"2. i played FFXI, the raids there had little reward for me at all (BLM), Raiding is about guild pride, not about gear, gear that you get from raiding isnt about the stats its about the rarity and the value. no, i would not raid is the rewards where the same, because then they would not hold the value and pride. But, even if they where just a little bit better, i would raid.
3. levels 1-60 in wow are solo, the rep grind is solo, and 90% of the quests are solo. it has 6 raids in the entire game.
its solo
A. I didn't say that line, so I'm not sure what possible relevance it has.
B. Even if I did say that line, there's no contradiction between wanting a game to flop hard and wanting people to know the actual facts about the game.
Yep, exactly as I thought. It has nothing to do with actually playing raids, and you wouldn't choose that playstyle on its own. The gameplay in raids is so bad that even you, an ardent raid defender, would not raid were it not for the gear. It IS about the gear if you wouldn't raid without the gear, whether you want to admit it or not.
And at 60, all of the best gear comes from raids, the nonraid gear isn't even close. Plus the time to go 1-60 and complete the solo quests is far less than the time it would take to complete the raids. You guys pretending like WOW isn't a raid game just makes you look foolish, it doesn't help your arugment.
No, it's just people that play games they actually find enjoyable. Only someone with full-on raider brain damage could consider "I want a game to be fun to play" to be equivalent to "I want to skip past the actual gameplay".
Yes, it's called raider brain damage. The concept of playing games that are fun is simply beyond your grasp, and the idea that stuff in a game should be enjoyable isn't even comprehensible, neither is the idea that you should be playing with people that you enjoy playing with.
Wow, this is getting heated.
First to Gatheris, no crafted items can't substitute for raided gear. If you read the Vanguard FAQ what they go to some lengths to explain is that to get fully decked out with the best gear will require players to raid a bit, solo a bit, group a bit and craft a bit. Each method will get you different bits of gear. The developers' goal is to make the end-game a bit more varied.
Second, to the point that game developers have to put all the best gear in raid dungeons or no-one would raid - I MUST pose the question, why do you play? I play to have fun and if the content is fun then I enjoy it. I really enjoyed WoW getting to 60 (several times). What I loathed about WoW's end-game was it's very narrow focus - which happened to be on raids. You ended up running the same raid instances over and over and over and over with a fairly tiny chance in any given raid of getting any 'reward'. I'm not a masochist. If I want to perform repetitive actions with little chance of reward I'll go to work.
I think what they're aiming for in Vanguard is good. They're taking the 'healthy balance' route.
I do not consider raids challenging. The only thing challenging about a raid is keeping my eyes open.
I don't like people in raiding guilds. Most of them only care about one thing; singing on at raid time. Never see them any other time.
The problem with raid obtained gear, as has been said thousands of times in this thread, is it imbalances the game.
Look at EQ. Mobs are quadding for over 2000 now. That's a mob a group is expected to kill. No one but dedicated raiders can kill the mobs in EQ nowadays. Raid gear has killed the EQ grouping game, because the devs have to make the regular mobs stronger to challenge raiders. I can't enjoy EQ any longer, because of the obscene rewards handed out at raids. Its impossible not to be a raider and enjoy EQ post-75.
I used to play EQ 35-50 hours a week. I just didn't raid. I would rather stimulate my mind then stare blankly at the screen for 5-8 hours. I'm very willing to put time into a game. Just not boring time. I expect to be stimulated, and raiding is far from stimulating.
To any of you idiots who think raiding is easy or doesnt require work. Lead a raid once, Go back to EQ and beat Sullon Zek or Performer on the 50th try let alone the 1st. These raids require skill not dps, not the best tanks not the best stats. But skill and work. Raids are NOT just sitting there doing nothing. If your in the guild leadership area you do more work then your own job reading about strategy on these raids, wiping 20 times just to beat it once out of pure luck, learning from every experience and getting better. EQ Raiding is not the same as the POP days where it was click attack and thats it.
Id also say my WOW bashing is as it is. I hate WOW and will say it, the game does nothing to the idiots who suck, you dont have to have any skill or thought to play the game.
To the person who said brad has said the best items come from raids, your reading half a sentence and i encourage you to read everything he has said., Vanguard WILL NOT be a raid only game, the best items will NOT ONLY come from raiding but will come from all 3 spheres, adventure, crafting, diplomacy. Read about it before you speak and dont just read 2 sentences and get bored.
Time for my 2 copper...
WoW raiding as it stands completely sucks, I've lead raids, I've been the loot master and I can tell you one thing about it..It is the MOST stressfull thing I have EVER had to do in my gaming history. Nearly everyone who had lead a raid from my guild by the end of the night was that damn annoied at: People going AFK mid boss fight and then coniserendly turning back up just when their item drops, the squabbles over the loot itself, the fact it took 7 attemps to do the simplest task.. I can list things forever..
The other end of the line is not that good either, I've been MT, Healer and Caster DPS and they are completely boring, whats worse you have all these 'skills' to level with and by the time 'raiding' hits it boils down to amost one skill a fight, hybrids just boil down to heal/cleanse spamming so why are they 'hybrids' in the first place? Basically put WoW should only really have Warrior (Tank), Priest (healer), and Mage (DPS) cuz thats basically all you actally need.. Also wheres the 'skill in raiding' a hear lots about? Theres almost no thinking required by most raiding groups as all most raids do is follow a pre-written battle plan players already know what to do and what to expect as the 'skillful' raiding groups have done all the donkey work for them, they do all the thinking and planning for you, all you have to do is stand where you are told and hit the required button for that boss/mob..
The only ever 'fun' in WoW raiding atm is the loot reward itself IMO, no ofference to anyone but if you havn't lead a raid or loot mastered or gone into a raiding situation blind you barely have to do anything, your 'fun' is the shiny prize at the end, for the people who do those jobs raiding = work... period, WoW may have had the right idea to begin with but being with 40 people for up to 6 hours per night of raiding with only lets say 20-ish usefull items shouldn't really be anyone's idea of 'fun'.. It's more like Christmas shopping with everyone trying to grab the only turkey in the store. People will fight and people will be carrying a large chunk of the raid throughout the night. I have never seen a raid in WoW were everyone was actally doing their 'job' and everyone got along.
All in all, yes raiding is a nessercery tool/game style, but if TBC or any game follows this current 'WoW Raiding' style it's certainly not a fun game to play for some people. Throw out this 'on mass' raiding numbers scale it down, make most of the 'skills' aviable to the raid actally needed for the 'raid' if its intened to be 'end game content', and either ban 'guides' or make encounters hard to predict and THEN raiding can be classed as both 'fun' and 'skillfull'
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
*Easy* fix for both camps.
Killer sword X exists in game. Sword X is only obtainable by a hard/long solo quest. Same sword is available at the end of a hard/long 40 man raid, only at the end of the raid, the reward is 40 sword Xs (Not 1 or 2). No one loses, everyone has a blast, both solo and social players are satisfied, EVERYONE WINS!
LOL
Nice way to break the NDA. They will find you!
Zero? yes
Cool? No
Nobody is perfect...My name is Nobody