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Sigil: Digging a early grave?
godpuppet
Member Posts: 1,416
Is Sigil digging an early grave?
With Vanguard said to go Open Beta this very month they are very precariously exposing not only the merits but the games faults to a very meticulous audience. The first few months of a game will set out its reputation for years to come and seeing this game in its current stage is definately NOT going to give a good impression.
To be plain, Vanguard is no where near ready for an open beta let alone release. Open beta will break this game unless they give it time to resolve the major issues. The core elements: Gameplay, graphics and stability are still lacking significantly. This is not to mention the simple bugs, ui dilemas and the absence of basic content. IMO, vanguard shouldnt consider pushing an Open Beta until March.
Fact to consider: Open Beta is designed to test the stability of servers, it is always prior to recieving the new servers intended for retail and you would only purchase those servers close to retail (so's not to waste money). So obviously retail is soon (weekly?).
Sigil are making some damned awful mistakes and I thought the first and last one would be signing up to SoE. Seems the tale takes a new turn and Sigil continues piling the soil up.
To be plain, Vanguard is no where near ready for an open beta let alone release. Open beta will break this game unless they give it time to resolve the major issues. The core elements: Gameplay, graphics and stability are still lacking significantly. This is not to mention the simple bugs, ui dilemas and the absence of basic content. IMO, vanguard shouldnt consider pushing an Open Beta until March.
Fact to consider: Open Beta is designed to test the stability of servers, it is always prior to recieving the new servers intended for retail and you would only purchase those servers close to retail (so's not to waste money). So obviously retail is soon (weekly?).
Sigil are making some damned awful mistakes and I thought the first and last one would be signing up to SoE. Seems the tale takes a new turn and Sigil continues piling the soil up.
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Comments
I don't know the state of Vanguard, but I do know the state of PvE gaming, and many of us are desperate for a new title and may be forgiving of a new release that still requires some work to be done.
Just how long are we expected to wait? I've been waiting since 2001 for a decent PvE MMORPG to commit my gaming time to. Do I need to wait until late 2007? 2008? 2009?
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Every game has it problems in beta, that why they call it "testing". Give them a chance to see what problems they will have then let them work on it.
The "doom" post do the game and the developers no good. Maybe posting what problems you have and what the game has.
The "death blow" means nothing to folks w/o some good solid information.
Nkat
Let me say just one thing
If Sigil is digging early grave by releasing VG this month.
than release in march would not help much.
Contruary to the popular belief at mmorpg.com - if the game is not good in january there is no way you can make it good until march.
So i say. Let them release.
If the game is POS now. It will be POS in march or july.
At least we will know now and not have to bite our nails for few more months
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
originally posted by godpuppet on 1/04/07 9:43:08 AM
---> So obviously retail is soon (weekly?). <---
If you go to Gamestop to the store or online it says right on the front homepage that Vanguard will most likely launch on January 29th, So it is very soon. I asked one of the workers at the Gamestop store if thats accurate and they said pretty accurate yes. So we will see.
(EDIT) after looking at this.. maybe this January 29th release is just a pre-release and not retail?
The OP is completely correct in his reasoning not to open to public beta. While I can understand some people are just dying for something new to play, thats no reason to open the game early.
With all the hype and hopes behind this game it needs to be polished from day one. That's it's only chance to make it. Why the game makers of the world can't learn from others mistakes is just beyond comprehension. It's like they want to fail, all the warnings are there, yet they act as if they're not.
Small issues will be overlooked as they always are, as long as they are addresses. However, the 5 or 6 800 pound Gorillas in this game are going to turn potential gamers to another title.
Yes, I've played the game. It's potential is huge except for just some of the following issues;
1. Performance
Even on the lowest possible setting it's less than stellar by even game 3 or 4 years older. Yes, I've got a nice rig. [this will improve with time] but you don't go into public beta like this unless you have to and if you have to theres a problem that needs to be addressed. FYI indoor game play is much smoother and one can turn up the settings slightly.
2. Combat while improved much from what it was is still very static and not very exciting.
3. Lots of graphic issues, Tearing, Ghosting, poor Texturing and Animation for lots of things. You would think in the year 2007 we could play a game that did'nt ghost. EQ1 is still horrible about this. It's really a flaw in design and nothing else.
I have many more but no reason to go any further.
This game also has some really awesome stuff. But if half the park is closed and the part thats closed has all the good rides no one will stay for long.....
I want this game to succeed! I want to say finally they did it! But, I'm no fool and I'm not going to be fooled into making due with and/or overlooking things that are not exceptable.
I understand your post, but it's simply not a valid post. I don't mean that as a flame, but rather as the entire post is based on your opionion of a game and how it should be at this stage of development. Now, to be fair to you, this post I'm doing is exactly as your post. Just my opionion.
The true nature of a MMORPG is an ever evolving system of changes, tweaks, and often new content that all cause some type of bug or problem. There never has been and I venture a guess that there never will be the perfect game at release or post release. Something is always going to be broke in one way or another.
I think they are holding the open beta for 2 reasons. Reason one is to swarm the servers, account creation web sites, and try their best to break the system. This last minute influx of information will be very good to have for release date as they have a better chance to have any "show stopping" problems fixed by then. Reason two is to give everyone a chance to see and try the game before spending their hard earned money. I think they are proud and excited enough about Vanguard that they are willing to do this and at the same time it will help cut down on those who would have bought it, played it, hated it and then swamped their customer service and forums with refund requests. Sure that will still happen, but this will cut down on it.
I will be there in the beta and I've got high hopes for this to be the next game I enjoy enough to play. If I get really lucky it will good enough to lure my wife away from EQ2, but without a little devine intervention that won't happen.
I understand your post, but it's simply not a valid post. I don't mean that as a flame, but rather as the entire post is based on your opionion of a game and how it should be at this stage of development. Now, to be fair to you, this post I'm doing is exactly as your post. Just my opionion.
The true nature of a MMORPG is an ever evolving system of changes, tweaks, and often new content that all cause some type of bug or problem. There never has been and I venture a guess that there never will be the perfect game at release or post release. Something is always going to be broke in one way or another.
I think they are holding the open beta for 2 reasons. Reason one is to swarm the servers, account creation web sites, and try their best to break the system. This last minute influx of information will be very good to have for release date as they have a better chance to have any "show stopping" problems fixed by then. Reason two is to give everyone a chance to see and try the game before spending their hard earned money. I think they are proud and excited enough about Vanguard that they are willing to do this and at the same time it will help cut down on those who would have bought it, played it, hated it and then swamped their customer service and forums with refund requests. Sure that will still happen, but this will cut down on it.
I will be there in the beta and I've got high hopes for this to be the next game I enjoy enough to play. If I get really lucky it will good enough to lure my wife away from EQ2, but without a little devine intervention that won't happen.
I understand what your saying; "There is no 'complete' MMO becuase they are ever changing" and I totally agree with this way of thinking. But there is a level of achievement required for the MMO succeed in getting subscribers. It requires seamless gameplay, basic level of content and a good stability & performance level.Vanguard will have a following and some level of success, but releasing this Open Beta sooner rather then later is dwarfing and severely limiting its initial success. The reputation it recieves will go on throughout the MMORPG community and it will be passed on until dramatic change occurs. Word of mouth has a serious effect on MMO's, ive heard of people skipping WoW or EVE merely becuase their room mate said it was crap. To put this issue simply, by releasing within the next month Sigil will be limiting their profits and our enjoyment to such a level we may not see the game improve for 6 months, a year or maybe never.
I love this game, I think it has alot of potential but its being squandered.
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They're a few patches away from being ready for release but they're more than ready for a 25,000 person stress test and that's what it is. It's not an open beta. There's not going to be an open beta. They are going to increase to 25,000 tester for a short period before release. Most likely the next 2-3 weeks.
I just can't wait for the lag and login server issues the first couple days of this stress test. It's always bad the first day of a stress test but i can't wait to read all the whiners posts LOL.
Make a difference!
I was only invited at the beginning of Beta 4 (less then a month ago), it doesnt take longer then a week to realise this game is not ready and im sure the Developers realise that too, yet they are still pushing for a release.
EDIT: Mind you, the Devs prob have little say in the matter, they're just doing a job for a wage. Its the Department heads & their bosses that make the decisions.
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I think part of the problem is that the general populace has become accustomed to "open beta" being synonymous with "free retail". If they open the game up and there are massive performance issues, they reserve the right to close the beta and re-work the code. Granted, I don't believe there's been a single developer to date who actually did this, nor do I know the financial ramifications of doing it, but it's still possible.
Many of the performance issues that you're seeing in the closed Beta could indeed be due to you running a debug version of the client. I have seen in other beta's where the retail version of the client is MUCH MUCH faster than the beta version.
I don't know what role SOE plays in Vanguard but just knowing Soe is involved gives people reason to fear. If and I mean if, Vanguard is not ready and they go ahead and release it, chances are Soe is behind this. I'm thinking the reasoning behind this has to do with WoW and its oncoming expansion. I just hope they do the right thing and release it when it's ready.
We all know just how deceiving and dastardly the heads at soe are.
All MMOs are released in some stage of Beta, it is the nature of the beast. I'm not happy that SOE are involved but I don't think it's in their best interests to butcher another game. It won't help them financially or otherwise and it has been stated time and time again that they do not have any creative control. Until it is proven otherwise, I'd say Vanguard will do fine.
You'd think that by now, Dev houses would listen when beta testers say "please bake it a little more". Beta testers ARE special. They are potential (or in the case of test server dwellers - current) customers, that like the idea of the game well enough to play it while it is still a buggy PoS, just to give devs feedback on how to make it better. Sure, they do all have thier own agenda, and its a dev art on figuring out which gameplay tweak suggestion to implement and which to ignore. But, if the testers are saying things like "its not stable", "its too buggy", "it needs polish" ... meh. That feedback is not usually tester agenda driven, but a real red flag.
AC2 and AO are monuments to (not) listening to that type of feedback. Again, I can't speak directly to VG:SoH. But in the current marketplace, where games have launched playable and with polish at release (WoW, CoH/V) I do not think a game will survive the backlash. WoW & CoH's open betas showed definite polish in place and remarkable stability considering it was the "cattle call" please break our servers performance phase prior to release.
I agree with the OP in that respect. Open beta cattle call testers are not closed beta testers and they have different (and bar has been raised!) expectations. I hope VG is looking at the results of AC2 and AO, and planning accordingly. If they are not, and issue an open beta to a buggy, unstable, unfinished and unpolished game ... no good can come of that.
I would hate to add VG to AC2 & AO as subtitles for this poster:
My first point is that the game will be a successful venture no matter what for one simple reason. It is tailored to the Fanboys.
Brad always said it. His goal is to get 150k-200k subscribers and no more. All the people who are saying that V:SoH is going to take population away from WoW are, in my opinion, wrong because V:SoH is not going to be a competitor to WoW, it will be an alternative with deeper gameplay for people who so desire.
Second I will dispute the readiness of the game. Right now Sigil is releasing a huge patch after a huge patch. And at the rate that they are going, I expect the game to be pretty polished by mid-beta.
Third point is that Beta 5 that's going to roll around is not TRULY an open beta. They are still limiting access to I believe 15k accounts (not 25K as was stated earlier). The reason they are calling it open is because there will be no NDA.
I will agree that many people expect Open-beta to be a free trial and THAT might hurt some reputation, but I wouldn't be worried about it.
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The game does have some truly amazing features. It has stunning graphics (even on my mid range system: 3,0GHz, XT1950Pro, 2GB). It still needs some polish here and there and some performance optimizations.
As for beeing a WoW competitor...not a chance. The game is more like a mixture of FFXI and EQ. I can't comment in any more detail due to the NDA, but trust me, if you like complex and involving MMORPGs then you will like this. It's everything but a WoW 'easy mode' MMORPG.
The game will find it's player base and i dare say it will be more than the 150k - 200k Brad thinks are enough. It has alot to offer for everyone that is bored with the 'lightweight' MMORPGs we have been flooded with in 2006.
Open beta means: game almost finished, only a few bugs remaning but nothing critical.
The game is good, even atm. They will just need some time to make it even better, almost all the mmorpg ar released "unfinished", because the developpement cost alot of money. Once it comes out they will get loads of money and will be able to eradicate the remaining bugs.
Anyway what else could we 'hope' from someone who called himself 'soe hater' +_+
I was only invited at the beginning of Beta 4 (less then a month ago), it doesnt take longer then a week to realise this game is not ready and im sure the Developers realise that too, yet they are still pushing for a release.
EDIT: Mind you, the Devs prob have little say in the matter, they're just doing a job for a wage. Its the Department heads & their bosses that make the decisions.
Ok not to flame but thats just really ignorant to say that about Devs particularly if you include Programmers into that portion. Not one game designer or programmer that I know would ever just do a job for a wage! You pratically give up everything to work hard and long and alot. Its true the upper ups have the say on when certain things are decided but they don't do it randomly even if it seems like it.
I dont' think I've ever played a mmo that didn't have a million and one problems when it launched including WOW which still has several! Its the nature of programming. Fix one thing or add one thing and it somehow breaks another.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
umm the open in "open beta" only refers to the lifting of the nda - 'players are open to discuss it'
the stress testing and optimisation occurs during this phase, so any one complaining about the performance etc before these have been done, and whilst the debug scripts are running really are the dumb freeloaders that got past the screening for beta keys
This post makes absolutly no sense, alot can be done in 3 months.. Thinking otherwise is not only inane but ridiculous.
If the game needs more time they should take it, but I think they are starting to feel the pressure to release that SOE is known to put on Companys and developers.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I was only invited at the beginning of Beta 4 (less then a month ago), it doesnt take longer then a week to realise this game is not ready and im sure the Developers realise that too, yet they are still pushing for a release.
EDIT: Mind you, the Devs prob have little say in the matter, they're just doing a job for a wage. Its the Department heads & their bosses that make the decisions.
Ok not to flame but thats just really ignorant to say that about Devs particularly if you include Programmers into that portion. Not one game designer or programmer that I know would ever just do a job for a wage! You pratically give up everything to work hard and long and alot. Its true the upper ups have the say on when certain things are decided but they don't do it randomly even if it seems like it.
I dont' think I've ever played a mmo that didn't have a million and one problems when it launched including WOW which still has several! Its the nature of programming. Fix one thing or add one thing and it somehow breaks another.
With that wisdom in mind, the Developers must see the problems evident in the game. They are obvious, not to mention the fact they are often brought up topics on the forum. So either A: They are venting their frustrations and nobodys listening. or B: The company has problems and the Devs are trying to make the best of the situation. Im thinking B, becuase under your logic they would have quit if people ignored them. Maybe the common rumor is right, Sigil is running low on cash?---
