The problem with having fun at the max level is it generally takes a significantly larger amount of work (time) to have fun then than it did to get there. I think I'd really like to see a game that proposes a decent amount of enjoyment for your time, no matter the level. The BG's in DAoC really did a lot to that end, gave you a way to level instead of experiencing the mind numbing PVE that DAoC had to offer. I guess I probably differ from many gamers in that I'm not so concerned with being max level, if I can't have a good time along the way, then I will do what is fun rather than slug it out on the grindmill. This generally leads to quite a few alts and very few max level characters, LOL. I kinda preferred SWG when it had no level approximation and you either did or did not have the skills that would make killing a certain monster easy. I'd like to see more things like that, no levels, but skill based systems.
OP needs Darkfall. It "promises" everything you seem to want. Meaningful pvp, etc.
I have been following Darkfall since 04'. Can anyone say it will ever come out? They were supposed to release the game several times now. Most MMO's, even the crappy ones, take a while to develop. I'm not saying darkfall is, and i'm not sure when it'll come out, but I don't think any developer has released on time with their time tables. A lot of folks say they released too early even after the game was developed and worked for 4 or more years. You might look on their forums for a "state of the game" update? The last time I looked over there was a few months ago and I was mostly looking for their conceptual design statements, not really how the game was developing.
I thought the problem with MMORPGS today is that almost every developer is trying to cater to a "niche" market of 10000-20000 people instead of creating a game the general population can enjoy. Hence none of the developers achieved the sucess of WOW.In a poor example (cant think of a better one atm) it's almost like Pepsi Cola focused its product in CA and only CA, A&W rootbeer is focused in Texas and only Texas, and Nestea is focsed in Penn and only Penn... while they enjoyed local moderate success, they can never achieve the commercial success of Coca Cola who focused in North America. Hence Coca Cola is not only able to penetrate market in the above mentioned state, it's also able to penetrate markets in the other untouched states, which in turn, produced massive profits and became the most influentual soda.
I thought the problem with MMORPGS today is that almost every developer is trying to cater to a "niche" market of 10000-20000 people instead of creating a game the general population can enjoy. Hence none of the developers achieved the sucess of WOW.In a poor example (cant think of a better one atm) it's almost like Pepsi Cola focused its product in CA and only CA, A&W rootbeer is focused in Texas and only Texas, and Nestea is focsed in Penn and only Penn... while they enjoyed local moderate success, they can never achieve the commercial success of Coca Cola who focused in North America. Hence Coca Cola is not only able to penetrate market in the above mentioned state, it's also able to penetrate markets in the other untouched states, which in turn, produced massive profits and became the most influentual soda.
Emerging markets, while much more "volatile" than mainstream markets, are where innovation happens. Do you remember when Coke changed it's recipe because they thought the American people should have a different flavor of coke? That's a good example you posted because Coca Cola lost sales until "voila" they released this great new retro drink, Coca Cola Classic! In some cases, the change is good, but generally, trying to change a mainstream market to fit a niche is not really a lucrative investment, however, taking a niche market mainstream can be. We're watching one such struggle happen right now, HD-DVD and Blue Ray, one of them will probably fall off and one will go mainstream, but the mainstream market is currently CD/DVD, so those two are the niche for now. Heck, PC's used to be a niche market for the uber geeky. Now ask anyone how many they have in their home......I bet the average is not less than one, meaning it's mainstream, everyone has one. The examples go on and on, but you get the picture, niche either stay's niche, dies or goes mainstream, but I would gather that they all hope to be mainstream.
I thought the problem with MMORPGS today is that almost every developer is trying to cater to a "niche" market of 10000-20000 people instead of creating a game the general population can enjoy. Hence none of the developers achieved the sucess of WOW.In a poor example (cant think of a better one atm) it's almost like Pepsi Cola focused its product in CA and only CA, A&W rootbeer is focused in Texas and only Texas, and Nestea is focsed in Penn and only Penn... while they enjoyed local moderate success, they can never achieve the commercial success of Coca Cola who focused in North America. Hence Coca Cola is not only able to penetrate market in the above mentioned state, it's also able to penetrate markets in the other untouched states, which in turn, produced massive profits and became the most influentual soda.
sorry phatpanda but you've got it backwards. The problem is that MMO devs try to appeal to the general population. SWG is a prime example of this. They had a great game on their hands and the community was great, but then they changed everything in order to appeal to a larger audience. In the end, they lost a ton of subs and it probably won't be long until the game is cancelled.
These games shouldn't try to appeal to the masses. Why? because it never works. Trying to appeal to more only alienates the core audience, while still not managing to please the people it wants to bring in. WoW, had almost every MMO element included, and everything in it is very shallow. EVE, on the other hand, is very successful primarily because it doesn't try to appeal to more than its core audience and the players love that. If more devs stuck to there "niche" then games like SWG and DDO would be more popular. The niche games insure that there is something out there for everybody.
Its silly for all the devs to try to appeal to everyone anyway. Everyone isn't going to subscribe to every game. Most people don't wanna sub to more than one.
PS: MMO are not cola----for Coca Cola...the more the merrier; for an MMO more people means lag and bad community (bigger communities=bad communities)
I thought the problem with MMORPGS today is that almost every developer is trying to cater to a "niche" market of 10000-20000 people instead of creating a game the general population can enjoy. Hence none of the developers achieved the sucess of WOW.In a poor example (cant think of a better one atm) it's almost like Pepsi Cola focused its product in CA and only CA, A&W rootbeer is focused in Texas and only Texas, and Nestea is focsed in Penn and only Penn... while they enjoyed local moderate success, they can never achieve the commercial success of Coca Cola who focused in North America. Hence Coca Cola is not only able to penetrate market in the above mentioned state, it's also able to penetrate markets in the other untouched states, which in turn, produced massive profits and became the most influentual soda.
Emerging markets, while much more "volatile" than mainstream markets, are where innovation happens. Do you remember when [B]Coke changed it's recipe because[/B] they thought the American people should have a different flavor of coke? That's a good example you posted because Coca Cola lost sales until "voila" they released this great new retro drink, Coca Cola Classic! In some cases, the change is good, but generally, trying to change a mainstream market to fit a niche is not really a lucrative investment, however, taking a niche market mainstream can be. We're watching one such struggle happen right now, HD-DVD and Blue Ray, one of them will probably fall off and one will go mainstream, but the mainstream market is currently CD/DVD, so those two are the niche for now. Heck, PC's used to be a niche market for the uber geeky. Now ask anyone how many they have in their home......I bet the average is not less than one, meaning it's mainstream, everyone has one. The examples go on and on, but you get the picture, niche either stay's niche, dies or goes mainstream, but I would gather that they all hope to be mainstream.
Ok the reason Coke changed their recipe was because of the fact that it had cocain or some such in it that caused people to get high just by adding an asprin to it. That created a whole different flavor that lost it's appeal for many. Ever since then, they have had a struggle. Now that people are becoming more health consience, that has also created problems for junk food and drink companies.
As far as the lack of inovation and such. To many have decided to just follow the lead of other successful games. Hence, the cookie cutter mode we are stuck with now.
It's all about the fantasy baby! www.solsticeserver.com
Merv, I think the problem with SWG is that when they developed the game, they did not have the massive audience in mind. Hence they have to actually change midway in hopes to make the game more interesting for the massive audience. But, as I hate to use it as an example, WOW was really designed with the mass in mind. It took in consideration of both casual players and hardcore (like raiding for Molten Core). Blizzard even went a step further and tries to applease the massive audience rather than cater to the niche market. I think that pissed the hardcore player off in a degree. But, as a business, it was a great success, and it bring many people entertainment. It's influnenced the society in a way no other MMORPG (or even all other MMORPG combined) can ever achieve.
I think except the truely few in society where they don't have anything else better to do, most of the people on planet earth enjoys grinding (vanguard and the koerans etc), camping and ganking routine very much. Nowever, during the Everquest I to pre WOW period, people simply dont have a choice. They are forced to grind if they want to play mmorpg. I think many current WOW players will never switched to any other MMORPG because they don't enjoy the grinding and they refused to be forced into grinding.
I know there are players that prized themselves on their ability to grind and camp. But, there are many other players that dont. Games like Eve and WOW is coming out and providing players the choice, and many will take it.
And, no, I am not an WOW fanboi. I dont have a WOW subscription anymore, I do have an active subscription to EVE atm.
I thought the problem with MMORPGS today is that almost every developer is trying to cater to a "niche" market of 10000-20000 people instead of creating a game the general population can enjoy. Hence none of the developers achieved the sucess of WOW.In a poor example (cant think of a better one atm) it's almost like Pepsi Cola focused its product in CA and only CA, A&W rootbeer is focused in Texas and only Texas, and Nestea is focsed in Penn and only Penn... while they enjoyed local moderate success, they can never achieve the commercial success of Coca Cola who focused in North America. Hence Coca Cola is not only able to penetrate market in the above mentioned state, it's also able to penetrate markets in the other untouched states, which in turn, produced massive profits and became the most influentual soda.
Emerging markets, while much more "volatile" than mainstream markets, are where innovation happens. Do you remember when Coke changed it's recipe because they thought the American people should have a different flavor of coke? That's a good example you posted because Coca Cola lost sales until "voila" they released this great new retro drink, Coca Cola Classic! In some cases, the change is good, but generally, trying to change a mainstream market to fit a niche is not really a lucrative investment, however, taking a niche market mainstream can be. We're watching one such struggle happen right now, HD-DVD and Blue Ray, one of them will probably fall off and one will go mainstream, but the mainstream market is currently CD/DVD, so those two are the niche for now. Heck, PC's used to be a niche market for the uber geeky. Now ask anyone how many they have in their home......I bet the average is not less than one, meaning it's mainstream, everyone has one. The examples go on and on, but you get the picture, niche either stay's niche, dies or goes mainstream, but I would gather that they all hope to be mainstream.
The sad part is... it wasnt any of the niche game that was able to bring MMORPG into the mainstream society. It was WOW that successfully bring MMORPG into the mainstream. Niche games that focused on grinding routine can't never, ever bring MMORPG into mainstream, because people don't like it, except a few. (I know I will pissed off a bunch of people with the following statement, but bleh ) Trying to bring niche MMORPG into the mainstream, to me and imo, will almost be the same as trying to bring foot fetish into the mainstream, they both fail for the same reason: the mass population does not enjoy it.
Emerging markets, while much more "volatile" than mainstream markets, are where innovation happens.
The statement is true only when the innovation is accepted and then embraced by the mainstream market.
1. first the society has to think it's ok, i.e. playing MMORPG is a good way to pass time. (accept)
2. then playing MMORPG is fun and enjoyable. and it is MORE FUN than watching TV or a movie, or going out with friends. (embraced)
If an innovation cannot do that, it is only an innovation, it will not ever get picked up or noticed by the mass.
I thinkplaying computer games, MMORPG was considered to be a geek thing even in the 90's. I wouldnt say WOW get MMORPG accepted by the mainstream, it certainly was VERY influential at getting the mainstream market embraceing it.
I thought the problem with MMORPGS today is that almost every developer is trying to cater to a "niche" market of 10000-20000 people instead of creating a game the general population can enjoy. Hence none of the developers achieved the sucess of WOW.In a poor example (cant think of a better one atm) it's almost like Pepsi Cola focused its product in CA and only CA, A&W rootbeer is focused in Texas and only Texas, and Nestea is focsed in Penn and only Penn... while they enjoyed local moderate success, they can never achieve the commercial success of Coca Cola who focused in North America. Hence Coca Cola is not only able to penetrate market in the above mentioned state, it's also able to penetrate markets in the other untouched states, which in turn, produced massive profits and became the most influentual soda.
Emerging markets, while much more "volatile" than mainstream markets, are where innovation happens. Do you remember when Coke changed it's recipe because they thought the American people should have a different flavor of coke? That's a good example you posted because Coca Cola lost sales until "voila" they released this great new retro drink, Coca Cola Classic! In some cases, the change is good, but generally, trying to change a mainstream market to fit a niche is not really a lucrative investment, however, taking a niche market mainstream can be. We're watching one such struggle happen right now, HD-DVD and Blue Ray, one of them will probably fall off and one will go mainstream, but the mainstream market is currently CD/DVD, so those two are the niche for now. Heck, PC's used to be a niche market for the uber geeky. Now ask anyone how many they have in their home......I bet the average is not less than one, meaning it's mainstream, everyone has one. The examples go on and on, but you get the picture, niche either stay's niche, dies or goes mainstream, but I would gather that they all hope to be mainstream.
The sad part is... it wasnt any of the niche game that was able to bring MMORPG into the mainstream society. It was WOW that successfully bring MMORPG into the mainstream. Niche games that focused on grinding routine can't never, ever bring MMORPG into mainstream, because people don't like it, except a few. (I know I will pissed off a bunch of people with the following statement, but bleh ) Trying to bring niche MMORPG into the mainstream, to me and imo, will almost be the same as trying to bring foot fetish into the mainstream, they both fail for the same reason: the mass population does not enjoy it.
EQ1 brought MMO's into the mainstream in my opinion. Blizzard touts big numbers but I really don't think they hold 7 million "active" subcriptions, rather I think they have activated 7 million individual accounts. <shrugs> All Blizzard did was capitalize on a popular gaming IP (warcraft) and made a successful alternative to what was available in the MMO market by taking out all the things that people incessantly complained about with EQ. It's odd, but as I see it, they made a niche game (catering to the warcraft fans) that went mainstream and dominated the market. I believe that's what I pointed out above. I don't think they intended to steal the grand majority of the market or they would have had more servers and server capacity early on, LOL. Now EQ is the mainstream of yesteryear, WoW is the mainstream of today and we're still looking for the mainstream of tomorrow it seems.
Ok the reason Coke changed their recipe was because of the fact that it had cocain or some such in it that caused people to get high just by adding an asprin to it. That created a whole different flavor that lost it's appeal for many. Ever since then, they have had a struggle. Now that people are becoming more health consience, that has also created problems for junk food and drink companies.
As far as the lack of inovation and such. To many have decided to just follow the lead of other successful games. Hence, the cookie cutter mode we are stuck with now.
Really? I thought the reason they changed their recipe was because they were losing sales to Pepsi hand over fist, so they tried to be more like Pepsi and started losing the folks who were sticking it out with them too? Maybe I'm misinformed, but I seriously doubt the whole coke in the cola and pep in the pepsi was still around in the 80's when they changed their recipe.
"Coca cola's original drink's market share had been shrinking for decades, from 60% just after World War II to under 24% in 1983, in the face of fierce competition from arch rival Pepsi-Cola."
Hehe, I would really think that EQ was the big thing amongst gamers. WOW is the big thing amongsted gamers & non gamers. While EQ bring many people that enjoys gaming to MMORPG, it lacks the success WOW has that brings an entire family to play. My gf has never ever played a day of computer game in her life before. She just thought the graphic was kinda neat and started a hunter on my account to mess around. One years later she has a 60 priest and 60 hunter. (Ohh I remembered that it used to annoyed me to hell with her playing on my account and I was late for guild raids on Molten Core). At least for me that saids alot about WOW's ability to bring people from all walks of life into MMORPG.
I believe, strongly, that only when there are significant public attension, interest, and wallets willing to open, can MMORPG industry truely grow and develop. This in turn, benefit us, the MMORPG players.
EDIT: I am just rather sad that it wasnt Eve that achieved this. Eve is an amazing game that requires virtually no grinding (if you dont like) at all, and still allows u to enjoy the majority of the game. But I suppse the time based training system is both a bless and a curse for Eve.
I knew a lot of families that played EQ. My ex-girlfriend played for several years, my wife played as a result of me getting a few friends (a married couple i know) into playing, which resulted in us meeting eventually. I think shooter fans when you say gamers like that. I think EQ appealed to a very different market than shooters did just due to the complexity and similarity to real life. I think this "different" type of game play actually attracted those who never really played anything other than spider solitaire before into playing a subscription based game. You'd be surprised at how many folks I worked with for years and never really talked to much until they found out I played EQ also. My entire guild in EQ was made up of some 30 friends locally that get together regularly at the 4th of July and such. As a side note, most of them also play WoW now <sighs>. I think WoW took some of the seriousness out of the game while keeping a lot of the dynamics that make an MMO what it is. I think this is the appeal of WoW, the casual gamer has a place. From what I understand of my friends though, it has a way of making a casual gamer a hardcore gamer with the end game farming and such, though, LOL. I am playing EVE myself and my buddy, the one I met my wife through has started up the trial account as well. Maybe I can convert him over from the dark side....we shall see.
Well, I kinda agree that WOW tend to have the ability to transfrom casual players into hardcore. My gf was complaining when I was in AO that I spend at least 5 hrs a day to lv up my engineer... boy was she in a shock when I was playing WOW... I was in University when I played AO and I skip almsot all the class to play AO 5-7 hrs a day... I play WOW for 5 hrs a day M-F, and that was with an full time 8-5 job... >.<
My gf never fall for the conversion to hardcore though, she play plays a couple hrs, then log off. Good thing her priest was easy to find a team to do scholo, and Dwarfan hand cannon was every that expensive
Edit: Dude... u are a pirate? hopefully we never met in game heh... I am just a noob mission runner trying to make it to lv 4...
Merv, I think the problem with SWG is that when they developed the game, they did not have the massive audience in mind. Hence they have to actually change midway in hopes to make the game more interesting for the massive audience. But, as I hate to use it as an example, WOW was really designed with the mass in mind. It took in consideration of both casual players and hardcore (like raiding for Molten Core). Blizzard even went a step further and tries to applease the massive audience rather than cater to the niche market. I think that pissed the hardcore player off in a degree. But, as a business, it was a great success, and it bring many people entertainment. It's influnenced the society in a way no other MMORPG (or even all other MMORPG combined) can ever achieve. I think except the truely few in society where they don't have anything else better to do, most of the people on planet earth enjoys grinding (vanguard and the koerans etc), camping and ganking routine very much. Nowever, during the Everquest I to pre WOW period, people simply dont have a choice. They are forced to grind if they want to play mmorpg. I think many current WOW players will never switched to any other MMORPG because they don't enjoy the grinding and they refused to be forced into grinding. I know there are players that prized themselves on their ability to grind and camp. But, there are many other players that dont. Games like Eve and WOW is coming out and providing players the choice, and many will take it. And, no, I am not an WOW fanboi. I dont have a WOW subscription anymore, I do have an active subscription to EVE atm.
Lemme start by apologizing again.
Im sorry, but you haven't made your point....Im not even sure you have one anymore.
WoW, as I stated before (then you for some reason re-stated) did attempt to appeal to the masses. The game does everything, PvP, PvE, crafting, story, etc. However, it doesn't do any of them well. People that enjoy these things, and almost noone likes doing them all, look to games that offer more and deeper options. As a business decision, its a toss-up as to whether or not its good. On one hand, you sell more subscriptions, but on the other hand people don't subscribe for very long. While this may be just a theory, your canceled account (and mine) supports it. I played WoW for less than 2 months
I guess you don't consider WoW to be a grind??? I'm sorry but games that have quests that say kill X number of whatever enemy is still a grind.
You've also helped me make my point with your continued subscription to EVE. EVE is a niche game. It doesn't appeal to me or scores of other people. Yet it thrives because it caters to its core audience and doesn't try to be anything else.
What you don't seem to understand is that the entire MMO genre is "niche". People that have no interest in the lore of games shouldn't play them....and NO game should try to be all things to all people.
Timing schedules are the reason why I cancelled the game. It's not because I don't enjoyed the game. It's still very fun for me. I have OCD and playing WOW is making it worse because I constantly thinking about lving and raiding every min... It was a very fun game for me. True I miss the customizations available to me in AO, but WOW was very fun for me. I played WOW from OB right until summer last year.
If player does not subscribe very long, how come it's subscription keeps growing not falling?
Grind is a part of any MMORPG, but there is no point making grind the central part of a game right? WOW has grind, but it wasnt the central part of the game,
EVE is a nice game. It's giving a decent ROI for its investors. I wouldnt call it thrive. According to Merrian-Webster dictionary, it implies "to grow vigorously " and EvE isn't really growing that vigorously.
In order for MMORPG industry to grow, we need to get more public attention, as well as people willing to pay to play. WOW is able to create great public interest for MMORPG industry, which in turns entice investor interest, and more developer will have the resources develop more great games for us, the MMORPG players. While Eve is a fine game for us, it certainly wasn't helping MMORPG industry as a while gaining public & investor interest to invest in the industry. Hence, I would think WOW did help MMORPG industry as a whole to grow, and therefore, I think there should be more games like WOW, that can create a favorable condition for the MMORPG industry to grow.
Edit: no, I agree that no game should try to be all things to all people, but I do believe that MMORPG games should be more accessiable to more people, and provide more fun to more people. That will allow the MMORPG industry to grow.
Ok maybe "thrive" wasn't the right word. But my point is that the EVE doesn't try to appeal to the scores of people that have no interest in it. The devs don't compromise what makes the game great to its players to try to draw in more players.
WoW has growing numbers because of its advertising...its a commercial success, however if you look or ask around this site and others, you would find that many people haven't cancelled either because they are hoping that the upcoming expansion makes it better, or they are just waiting for something better to come out. Also, that 7 million subs they advertise includes trials and inactive accounts. While WoW has brought mmorpg's to the masses, it ultimately hurts the mmo community, because WoW isn't original at all, however it will still be copied many times over.
FACT: The masses don't buy superior products. They buy mass produced crap.
Big business for mmo's is not a good thing. Big business for any product is not a good thing. Sure its great for the company, but big $$ makes the products, as well as original ideas suffer. Thats ultimately the point I wanted to make.
Ok while I agree that EQ did great because it was a great game for it's time. Many still complained about it. People whom complained about it still played it because there was nothing else better at that time. The reason SWG was so popular was because people could do and have so much more in a game then ever before while still enjoying the good stuff from EQ and so on. Still many were not happy with having to grind.
As for the Coke company. I was talking pre 80's. Coke at one time was more popular then Pepsi. I was talking about what started their downward financial spiral. What you had stated was true and came about after what I had written about. You do know that the same man who worked for Coke and created the Coke flavor the first time, also created the Pepsi one right? It is true. He became upset with the owners of the Coke company so left and developed Pepsi.
It's all about the fantasy baby! www.solsticeserver.com
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It's all about the fantasy baby!
www.solsticeserver.com
These games shouldn't try to appeal to the masses. Why? because it never works. Trying to appeal to more only alienates the core audience, while still not managing to please the people it wants to bring in. WoW, had almost every MMO element included, and everything in it is very shallow. EVE, on the other hand, is very successful primarily because it doesn't try to appeal to more than its core audience and the players love that. If more devs stuck to there "niche" then games like SWG and DDO would be more popular. The niche games insure that there is something out there for everybody.
Its silly for all the devs to try to appeal to everyone anyway. Everyone isn't going to subscribe to every game. Most people don't wanna sub to more than one.
PS: MMO are not cola----for Coca Cola...the more the merrier; for an MMO more people means lag and bad community (bigger communities=bad communities)
Ok the reason Coke changed their recipe was because of the fact that it had cocain or some such in it that caused people to get high just by adding an asprin to it. That created a whole different flavor that lost it's appeal for many. Ever since then, they have had a struggle. Now that people are becoming more health consience, that has also created problems for junk food and drink companies.
As far as the lack of inovation and such. To many have decided to just follow the lead of other successful games. Hence, the cookie cutter mode we are stuck with now.
It's all about the fantasy baby!
www.solsticeserver.com
Merv, I think the problem with SWG is that when they developed the game, they did not have the massive audience in mind. Hence they have to actually change midway in hopes to make the game more interesting for the massive audience. But, as I hate to use it as an example, WOW was really designed with the mass in mind. It took in consideration of both casual players and hardcore (like raiding for Molten Core). Blizzard even went a step further and tries to applease the massive audience rather than cater to the niche market. I think that pissed the hardcore player off in a degree. But, as a business, it was a great success, and it bring many people entertainment. It's influnenced the society in a way no other MMORPG (or even all other MMORPG combined) can ever achieve.
I think except the truely few in society where they don't have anything else better to do, most of the people on planet earth enjoys grinding (vanguard and the koerans etc), camping and ganking routine very much. Nowever, during the Everquest I to pre WOW period, people simply dont have a choice. They are forced to grind if they want to play mmorpg. I think many current WOW players will never switched to any other MMORPG because they don't enjoy the grinding and they refused to be forced into grinding.
I know there are players that prized themselves on their ability to grind and camp. But, there are many other players that dont. Games like Eve and WOW is coming out and providing players the choice, and many will take it.
And, no, I am not an WOW fanboi. I dont have a WOW subscription anymore, I do have an active subscription to EVE atm.
The sad part is... it wasnt any of the niche game that was able to bring MMORPG into the mainstream society. It was WOW that successfully bring MMORPG into the mainstream. Niche games that focused on grinding routine can't never, ever bring MMORPG into mainstream, because people don't like it, except a few. (I know I will pissed off a bunch of people with the following statement, but bleh
) Trying to bring niche MMORPG into the mainstream, to me and imo, will almost be the same as trying to bring foot fetish into the mainstream, they both fail for the same reason: the mass population does not enjoy it.
The statement is true only when the innovation is accepted and then embraced by the mainstream market.
1. first the society has to think it's ok, i.e. playing MMORPG is a good way to pass time. (accept)
2. then playing MMORPG is fun and enjoyable. and it is MORE FUN than watching TV or a movie, or going out with friends. (embraced)
If an innovation cannot do that, it is only an innovation, it will not ever get picked up or noticed by the mass.
I thinkplaying computer games, MMORPG was considered to be a geek thing even in the 90's. I wouldnt say WOW get MMORPG accepted by the mainstream, it certainly was VERY influential at getting the mainstream market embraceing it.
The sad part is... it wasnt any of the niche game that was able to bring MMORPG into the mainstream society. It was WOW that successfully bring MMORPG into the mainstream. Niche games that focused on grinding routine can't never, ever bring MMORPG into mainstream, because people don't like it, except a few. (I know I will pissed off a bunch of people with the following statement, but bleh
) Trying to bring niche MMORPG into the mainstream, to me and imo, will almost be the same as trying to bring foot fetish into the mainstream, they both fail for the same reason: the mass population does not enjoy it.
EQ1 brought MMO's into the mainstream in my opinion. Blizzard touts big numbers but I really don't think they hold 7 million "active" subcriptions, rather I think they have activated 7 million individual accounts. <shrugs> All Blizzard did was capitalize on a popular gaming IP (warcraft) and made a successful alternative to what was available in the MMO market by taking out all the things that people incessantly complained about with EQ. It's odd, but as I see it, they made a niche game (catering to the warcraft fans) that went mainstream and dominated the market. I believe that's what I pointed out above."Coca cola's original drink's market share had been shrinking for decades, from 60% just after World War II to under 24% in 1983, in the face of fierce competition from arch rival Pepsi-Cola."
quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke
Hehe, I would really think that EQ was the big thing amongst gamers. WOW is the big thing amongsted gamers & non gamers. While EQ bring many people that enjoys gaming to MMORPG, it lacks the success WOW has that brings an entire family to play. My gf has never ever played a day of computer game in her life before. She just thought the graphic was kinda neat and started a hunter on my account to mess around. One years later she has a 60 priest and 60 hunter. (Ohh I remembered that it used to annoyed me to hell with her playing on my account and I was late for guild raids on Molten Core). At least for me that saids alot about WOW's ability to bring people from all walks of life into MMORPG.
I believe, strongly, that only when there are significant public attension, interest, and wallets willing to open
, can MMORPG industry truely grow and develop. This in turn, benefit us, the MMORPG players.
EDIT: I am just rather sad that it wasnt Eve that achieved this. Eve is an amazing game that requires virtually no grinding (if you dont like) at all, and still allows u to enjoy the majority of the game. But I suppse the time based training system is both a bless and a curse for Eve.
Well, I kinda agree that WOW tend to have the ability to transfrom casual players into hardcore. My gf was complaining when I was in AO that I spend at least 5 hrs a day to lv up my engineer... boy was she in a shock when I was playing WOW... I was in University when I played AO and I skip almsot all the class to play AO 5-7 hrs a day... I play WOW for 5 hrs a day M-F, and that was with an full time 8-5 job... >.<
My gf never fall for the conversion to hardcore though, she play plays a couple hrs, then log off. Good thing her priest was easy to find a team to do scholo, and Dwarfan hand cannon was every that expensive
Edit: Dude... u are a pirate? hopefully we never met in game heh... I am just a noob mission runner trying to make it to lv 4...
Im sorry, but you haven't made your point....Im not even sure you have one anymore.
WoW, as I stated before (then you for some reason re-stated) did attempt to appeal to the masses. The game does everything, PvP, PvE, crafting, story, etc. However, it doesn't do any of them well. People that enjoy these things, and almost noone likes doing them all, look to games that offer more and deeper options. As a business decision, its a toss-up as to whether or not its good. On one hand, you sell more subscriptions, but on the other hand people don't subscribe for very long. While this may be just a theory, your canceled account (and mine) supports it. I played WoW for less than 2 months
I guess you don't consider WoW to be a grind??? I'm sorry but games that have quests that say kill X number of whatever enemy is still a grind.
You've also helped me make my point with your continued subscription to EVE. EVE is a niche game. It doesn't appeal to me or scores of other people. Yet it thrives because it caters to its core audience and doesn't try to be anything else.
What you don't seem to understand is that the entire MMO genre is "niche". People that have no interest in the lore of games shouldn't play them....and NO game should try to be all things to all people.
Timing schedules are the reason why I cancelled the game. It's not because I don't enjoyed the game. It's still very fun for me. I have OCD and playing WOW is making it worse because I constantly thinking about lving and raiding every min... It was a very fun game for me. True I miss the customizations available to me in AO, but WOW was very fun for me. I played WOW from OB right until summer last year.
If player does not subscribe very long, how come it's subscription keeps growing not falling?
Grind is a part of any MMORPG, but there is no point making grind the central part of a game right? WOW has grind, but it wasnt the central part of the game,
EVE is a nice game. It's giving a decent ROI for its investors. I wouldnt call it thrive. According to Merrian-Webster dictionary, it implies "to grow vigorously " and EvE isn't really growing that vigorously.
In order for MMORPG industry to grow, we need to get more public attention, as well as people willing to pay to play. WOW is able to create great public interest for MMORPG industry, which in turns entice investor interest, and more developer will have the resources develop more great games for us, the MMORPG players. While Eve is a fine game for us, it certainly wasn't helping MMORPG industry as a while gaining public & investor interest to invest in the industry. Hence, I would think WOW did help MMORPG industry as a whole to grow, and therefore, I think there should be more games like WOW, that can create a favorable condition for the MMORPG industry to grow.
Edit: no, I agree that no game should try to be all things to all people, but I do believe that MMORPG games should be more accessiable to more people, and provide more fun to more people. That will allow the MMORPG industry to grow.
WoW has growing numbers because of its advertising...its a commercial success, however if you look or ask around this site and others, you would find that many people haven't cancelled either because they are hoping that the upcoming expansion makes it better, or they are just waiting for something better to come out. Also, that 7 million subs they advertise includes trials and inactive accounts. While WoW has brought mmorpg's to the masses, it ultimately hurts the mmo community, because WoW isn't original at all, however it will still be copied many times over.
FACT: The masses don't buy superior products. They buy mass produced crap.
Big business for mmo's is not a good thing. Big business for any product is not a good thing. Sure its great for the company, but big $$ makes the products, as well as original ideas suffer. Thats ultimately the point I wanted to make.
As for the Coke company. I was talking pre 80's. Coke at one time was more popular then Pepsi. I was talking about what started their downward financial spiral. What you had stated was true and came about after what I had written about. You do know that the same man who worked for Coke and created the Coke flavor the first time, also created the Pepsi one right? It is true. He became upset with the owners of the Coke company so left and developed Pepsi.
It's all about the fantasy baby!
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