Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
My name is Rekindle and I was a beta tester
Rekindle
Member UncommonPosts: 1,206
To be perfectly honest I'm pretty depressed the direction this game has taken in the last 6 months. I think this game alienates, not encapsulates the "core gamer". I quietly kept my Beta testing secret while I watched the desparity between my own expectations (set by reading 'the vision") and the actual end product grow.
Firstly, let me say that I have the brain power to figure out that part of the problem is me. Yanno in relationships when you say ' its not you darling, its me" well... same here. I have been playing fantasy mmo's for almost a decade now and I'm quilty of considering Vanguard as a game that would re-kin-dle my love for the genre. My now widely used forum handle is not by mistake.
I'm guiltly of reading the "Vision" FAQ's and thinking this game might be a good spiritual sucessor to Everquest. The truth is (IMHO) you just need to read a few dev posts to get the idea these new fangled developers HATE , absoutely HATE everything that was EQ (which makes me laugh when I read the tards saying this game is EQ all over again).
I am under the belief that there is lots of potential for someone to take all the good things from EQ and make a ROLE PLAYING GAME that is massive and multiplayer and online. I may not have a degree in computer game design but I can give you an expression you can chew. Its called "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Developing a relationship with SOE I could take, making another WoW clone watered down and spiced up with "alternative systems" was a little hard to handle.
There are reasons that Wow are successful that go beyond the dev dollars they've spent on the game, or the fact that their game can actually peform on machines manufactured prior to 2005. Too many key components to Vanguard are after thoughts like creativity. Vanguard abandoned its one chance to offer something truly innovative when it stopped blazing its own trail and followed suit with every other mmo title out there.
Quests - nothing new there. Mark_my_words they will be complaining about the lack of imersion in this game 2 years after launch becaues its an after thought to the core of this game.
Performance - This game alienates grown men who have familes . 
This game, like EQ2, took the approach that they could save dev dollars by making a state of the art, ultra realistic game engine that can barely run on today's mean-average machine. That puts responsibility on the gamer to upgrade if they want to play.
Sword in the stone - lots of discussion has gone on in the beta forums for months about the hook factor of the game. Some people may get it , I don't. I see mindless mobs wandering around waiting to be culled. They can be better explained as bags of experience waiting to be plucked to return to task_master_0413 for guarenteed reward (typically a new stat stick). See, if they wanted to be in a relationship with ME they would have put the sword in the stone at the bottom of cave X and the reward would be the experience not the other way around.
If Vanguard represents the 3rd Generation of MMORPG's then something has gone wrong, very wrong with the genre.
Attention Developers: If you want to make a game that will beat wow (and we all know you can), take that rule book that has been written, this mysterious key to a successful MMO and throw it out.
I think Vanguard will be launched and it will do what most "2nd and 3rd gen" game shave done which is to continue to alienate the guy who enjoyed the trains down in Sebillis and the Tower of Frozen shadow.
Go 4th gen go!
Comments
I won't give up hope completely unless AoC and WAR crash and burn though... they are the two games keeping me hoping...
Hope will keep the genre alive... right?
Retired from WoW
Rebellion - 60 Warlock || Kalaa - 60 Warrior
Littlerebel - 60 Hunter || Albie - 60 Shaman
Played: Erm, a lot more.
I pretty much fully agree with you, this isn't a third generation game, at most it's a 2.5g game. Its just more of the same, and there is NOTHING wrong with that, however, it's NOT what I'm looking for.
If I wanted to play EQ2 or WOW... I'd play EQ2 or WOW.
I think a lot of the problem is more or a less genre staleness. Fantasy has been done over and over and over and over with the EXACT same formula. Quests consist of either "Kill X" or "Fetch Y". There is no real depth no originality. My greatest fear is that when we get to a different genre of games, say... sci-fi... that they're just going to take the fantasy template, smack a sci-fi skin on it and say good to go.
The MMO genre as a whole has largely been completely stagnant since EQ1. There have been no game breaking leaps and bounds forward or even moderate advances, it's all tiny and incremental, you know exactly what to expect before you even touch it. Frankly, I'm bored, they need to come up with something novel.
UO may have been the last unique game out there... and everquest dominated it, so every game after that copied everquests formula. WOW is now dominating everything so most of the games are some mix of everquest and wow with a few extras tacked on here and there.
Hell, we've watched the same problem in the FPS genre for years, no innovation... better graphics, slight refinements, no innovation... it's SAFER to copy-cat.
Unfortunately, in pretty much every genre of computer game... people are getting tired of it. We've been playing the exact same 5 genres for 10+ years with no significant changes. Time to move on devs. Go out on a limb. Be original, think different. Hell, try thinking at all rather than just stealing all the old ideas. I know its scary, i know its a risk, but the payout is going to be top notch if you manage to come up with something original and fun.
Last innovation in RPGs... *thinks* Fallout?
Last innovation in FPSs... *thinks* Quake?
Last innovation in MMOs... *thinks* UO/Everquest? (UO & EQ1 were significantly different from previous games LOK/NWN(on AOL)/M59)
Last innovation in RTSs... *thinks* C&C?
Last innovation in FSs... *thinks* IL2?
Last innovation in Sports... *thinks* hahahaha. Except for graphics these have been the same since the intellivision... I bet I can run some of the same plays on madden 07 as the intellivision football game. Much prettier versions of the same plays, but the same none the less.
Gaming is dying a slow death because the games that do *exceptionally* well drown out the innovations of the games that do *well*.
Anyone remember, XCom? Fallout? Star Control 2? Dungeon Keeper? Legacy of Kain? Gothic? Planescape Torment? Star Command? Freespace? Spellcraft: Aspects of Valor? Carmegeddon? Interstate 76? Darwinia? Privateer? The Incredible Machine?
Don't get me wrong, I love the new eye candy, but eye candy alone a good game doesn't make.
PC Gaming is dying? No. All Gaming is dying because the industry is stagnating for fear of taking a chance on a new concept or idea.
Even revamping some of the games in that list with new graphics would be an innovation compared to the differences between MMOs these days.
I'm done ranting for the time being. Gaming is just becoming a bore. More of the same.
Shadus
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
The topic sounds a bit like in some confession group, like being an alcoholic, heh.
But seriously, it is a well written and interesting post. I understand several of your points. However, the gaming scene has always had this loud cry for novelty. Many game reviews have shown thumbs down because the reviewer said there was too little innovation. While I understand the desire as a person who spents many weeks per hour in gaming for many, many years now, I also see you can not re invitent the wheel ever so often.
There are basically only so few ways to make a RPG, or strategy game or sports game or whatever genre function. MMOs are essentially combat-crafting-socializing. You can make places and roles for social play, you make a crafting system and them combat, the backbone of all MMOs. In the end it will always come down give ppl a reason to kill an amount of creatures and get a reward be become better and kill even more powerful creatures. Sure you can vary it, put story into some things, but in the end it always comes down to a simple thing.
Take sports. Watching football or soccer or whatever is basically something very simple and always more or less the same, and still people don't get bored if it is done well in the details. I dunno what novelty ppl expect. It is our desire to proof ourselves either against artificial or real people to be better. Thats all. Sure, you can flesh it out. Or take novels. Essentially more or less all Fantasy or sci-fi novels are made in the same pattern. Unknown person rises from rumble above the rest to save the world. There are always the same archetypes. The wise old advisor, the true but kinda simpleminded friend, the valorous fighter, the sneaky type, the traitor... Someone said, when Homer wrote the Ilias and Odysee all possible human stories were written, and there is a truth in it.
I have seen many games become total horrible in the aspiration to make innovations, and making an unplayable game. Many features sound cool on the table, but experiencing them is often totally another thing. Take Dark and Light. They had many real novel features, but in real many of them were not really thrilling. One example may stand for many. They had migrating mobs. Sounded cool, not any more those ready presented mobs as you complain. But in reality in that huge world, it often became impossible to do quests and I spent hours and days only to FIND a mob. It wasnt fun at all in real.
There are just things who are established and proven. 90% of players want those basic and proven features and those 10% who really enjoy exotic features usually just don't pay an AAA title. So I really understand the desire for innovation, but computer technology has reached a point where such things are hardly possible unless you start to make real weird and exotic things. After about 25 years of computer gaming most things are just nailed down, like a map, a journal, a quest giver, a reward, XP, mana, health, spells asf. It sounds a bit, like playing MMOs for so many years has made you burned out, seen this, done that. I know that feeling too. You recall the great thrill of the first years and want them back. But as in love, there is no 2nd first love feeling. Alas.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Vanguard not only alienates the Core players for lack of challenges, it also alienates the Casual player for the excessive Grind in the game.
It also alienates that 70% of the player base who won't put up with buying a new rig in order to play this game.
And with SoE keeping the financial reins of this game, Vanguard will be dumbed down even more so it will look like EQ2 Reloaded (Oh and by the way EQ2 is now a pretty game, not sure if Vanguard can top that).
You may know me better as Thras, or Squire-Vasquere of the Crimson Fellowship.
I tended to lay low alot, due to poor system performance in game, but I did what I could. I helped people before I became a member of the fellowship. I helped people best I could before I was dismissed from service due to "Morale damaging behavior" (comments made in Guild chat that uptight members did not appreciate as humor). Regardless that the Crimson Fellowship itself was in beta stages also (well Alpha if you want to get technical), and the manual was mostly blank. There is no official way to handle problems, its up to the Fellowship members to figure it out.
I followed the game from the early days, followed the hype. I listened to the NDA breaks on the FoH guild site, read the faq files on Silky Venom. I got into beta, and didn't find the game I was promised. Not until some time later when Brad posted a state of the game that explained what had changed, what was going to change, what wasn't going to change. The FAQ was almost for another game it seemed like.
Vanguard may have been better off without all of the hype. We would not have expected so much, and been so burned in the end.
Good post Rekindle. Although I don't agree 100% with every point you make I do see where you are coming from. This new generation of game I don't think is a term steeped in change rather than improvment on textures, trees, and other graphical improvments.
I don't mind that they didn't reinvent the wheel here and spent more time on the visuals because for me thats what draws me in.
Sorry Rekindle, but in response to your sword in the stone paragraph, I think Asherson's Call is what you need.
It was my first MMORPG and the only one ive played to date with that kind of system. I think you are looking for something else and tried to find it in VG.
GL
You hit the nail squarely on the head with this statement.
The problem with Vanguard that many people fail to see is only something you can learn by trudging through this game and leveling up to 20+. The world is to large and too empty and there is no content aside from pretty alpha blended grass. Yes there are tons of dungeons all over the place but there are no people gathering near the entrance or "zone" in the good old days, and why should they, there is nothing in this dungeon that anyone wants besides EXP or to do some asinine quest for a reward that graphically looks like all the other crap you've gotten for the last 10 levels and statistically doesn't matter too much as you will never solo a 4 dot unless you are a certain class and those classes will solo the 4 dot regardless of gear, much like you will solo a 2 dot regardless of gear. The rare spawns are just that rare like looking for stormfeather rare but he can spawn anywhere in a dungeon that has backspawn in less then 5 minutes, to go hand in hand with the retarded regen rates which have been redone a million times by now just like every aspect of the game. You start with the color red then change it blue, then green and then yellow and ultimately you have the color of shit.
It boggles the mind why they can't take EQ1 design new zones and lore and add better looking graphics that don't look like EQ2 or EQ1 enhanced. Why not hire artists from Asia to do your graphics.
You know if the they took the graphics from Lineage II and merged them with the gameplay of EQ1 then the antichrist will appear and devour the sun, it's just that stupidly simple to do yet everyone fails time and time again. It's not that hard.
Those complaining about innovation, don't want innovation, nobody does they just want something new to play. Maybe they fought with their guild, got sick of the grind, sold their characters,etc. Whatever the reason, they can't go back to starting from level 1 in their old beloved mmorpg like EQ1 or WOW wherever they've already had fully equipped capped chars. It would be foolish to go back and restart that which you've already done and experienced again. Thats why people keep jumping from mmorpg to mmorpg that keeps coming along looking for the next EQ when all they really want is an excuse to play EQ1 again without feeling retarded for investing that time again to get to someplace they already where. They need a reason, a new world, new graphics and most importantetly a level playing field where everyone is a noob and will participate in the content the way it was ment to be done. Not all high levels in the expansion zones and some twinks if that in the old world zones.
There is the formula to a succesful mmorpg, it's all freaking D&D or whatever DIC E system you want under neath, we just need new stories and settings from the GM(mmorpg devs) but keep the system familiar and accesible.
You play an mmorpg now after already having experience you look for game mechanics you know like trying to single pull, killing group content solo for more exp,etc,etc. No one even cares what the NPCs say anymore, they just want to advance as quickly as possible since no one will ever be a n00n in the true sense of the word when it comes to playing an mmorpg these days.
Bah, this game doesn't even deserve the time wasted writing this up about it.
It boggles the mind why they can't take EQ1 design new zones and lore and add better looking graphics that don't look like EQ2 or EQ1 enhanced. Why not hire artists from Asia to do your graphics.
There was a lot of talk about making this the real EQ2, but a lot of people agreed that there were plenty of things wrong with EQ1 and making the same game with a better graphics engine woudn't cut it nowadays either.It boggles the mind why they can't take EQ1 design new zones and lore and add better looking graphics that don't look like EQ2 or EQ1 enhanced. Why not hire artists from Asia to do your graphics.
There was a lot of talk about making this the real EQ2, but a lot of people agreed that there were plenty of things wrong with EQ1 and making the same game with a better graphics engine woudn't cut it nowadays either.EQ1 is everything right. World of Warcraft is succesful not because it's easy, but underneath at it's core it's a basic EQ. They have tweaked it much like a unofficial hacked Lineage II server raises the EXP rates and what not to make a completely different game experience then the original Lineage II(sometimes far for the better). But the classes and what not are true to the core, you need a tank, you need a healer and you need DPS. This will never change, and this is an MMORPG not an RPG. Tabletop RPGS there is no such thing as taunt the mobs are controlled by a GM and do whatever he wants and react to the situation accordingly. In a single player CRPG there is no taunt to save the rest of your group or in most cases your warrior does more damage then your wizard,etc,etc.
MMORPG is a beast that was created by EQ1, UO may have been one of the first online graphical multi user rpgs but it was really just a online single player game.
The co-operation by players and everything since has been because of EQ and the genere in it's purest form is EQ. Anything else is not an MMORPG in this sense but just an online mult user game that could be an RPG or have RPG elements.
---Retired---
WAR - Lots
Vanguard - Lots
---Live---
WoW - LOTS
EQ - LOTS