MMOGs, EvE, and Fresh Servers

Thinman · January 2007

Hey all,

I'm a MMOG veteran, I've played them for the last 5 years. This of course gives one a lot of time to consider every game, and the insight to know, of what is now available, what type of game they would most enjoy.

To get to the point, I have no doubt that the most ideal gaming experience for me at this point would be for CCP to open up a completely new EvE server. Everyone starting from scratch.

At this point, as amazingly great a game as EvE is, it's just not worth getting into for a new player. Ultimately, there will be opponents that can eat you for breakfast without lifting a fork, while the new player has to scurry around fleeing from 99% of the other opponents out there. It's just not fun to spend 9 months playing a game, just so that you can eventually be somewhat viable in PvP.

If they were to start a new server, I would be all in, and I would play for a very long time.

I'll add a poll to this, to get an idea of who else out there feels the same.

edit: Let me also state that I have tried to get into Eve 3 times now, and ended up quitting after a few months, because of the huge imbalance between what I could do, and what 90% of the playerbase could do. Right now, I've decided it's not worth trying again.

Tulisin · January 2007

I'm very new and I haven't found it that hard to compete. There are severely diminishing returns on each skill, and there is only so much you can train in each set. After you have some semi-decent skills it comes down more to who has the more properly suited modules for the type of fight you're having than the fact that the other guy has 5 months more training for a total 5 % effectiveness increase.

Thinman · January 2007

Getting the skills necessary to pilot a HAC remotely well, for example, takes at the bare minimum 6 months. And a large portion of the playerbase is flying better ships than HAC's.

I'm talking about the overall situation, more than just the fact that you can train the basic skills up to lvl 3 and hope for the best. 90% of the players have access to multiple, powerful ships, and a huge range of good drops to add to their ships. They have tons of ISK that they can spend wherever they please.

The new players have to get ISK for 2-3 days to get the advanced learning skill books. The advanced players can get those without even a slight dent in their wallet.

The established players have a huge potential for power, whether it be in the aspects of ships, skills, modules, or whatever. The new players come into the game a very small fish in a sea full of large sharks.

There is a lot more to it than just the fact that within 2 months you can eventually be viable. What's the point of playing a game for 2 months, just to be viable?

In one of my attempts to get into the game, I joined a corp after playing 4 months, with just my rifter, soon to be claw, and just felt like I might as well be flying a tin can. After 4 months' investment, that is pretty lame.

Compare this with what the experience would be like with a new server, and everyone flying basic ships, and a whole universe of opportunity ahead of you.

It just isn't enjoyable to be a new player in Eve, if you're of a mindset similar to my own. I'm wondering who else out there feels the same way.

freebirdpat · January 2007

The Average lifespan of an EVE Online account is something along the lines of 8 months from the last time Oveur gave the stat on average account age.

And you don't need 9 months of training to be viable in PvP, numbers still mean a heck of a lot more than anything else. EVE is like college football(american). Even though some teams don't get as much support or the greatest players, they can still compete and you have some really good games(battles).

I am currently on EVE hiatus myself, going to school and got tired of mission running. My Power of 2 alt was my PvP character, and she worked out really well for what was needed.

Hell some of the best times I had was taking my new ship through Egghelende which in my section of the woods was known to be very heavily camped typically.

Eschiava · January 2007

So, if training a HAC even remotely well takes more time than you are willing to spend, why not train something that takes less time? Or do you have an idea that a HAC is the minimum requirement for PvP?

Thinman · January 2007

It's not about a HAC or how easy it is to train skills or anything else like that.

To put it simply: The fact that the server has been around so long, and a majority of the players are very powerful compared to a starting players, completely turns me off from the game. I do not want to have to wait 3 months, or 1 month, much less 1 week to have a ship that can't be killed in 10 seconds by someone else in the game. But that is a very small part of the whole that turns me off from the game.

The fact that you are starting off, so far behind compared to the other players, with no chance of catching up, completely makes the game not worthwhile to me. Those that have played 2 years will always be ahead of the starting players, because of the nature of the system for levelling up in this game.

This is not a whine or a rant, and was never intended to be. I just want to know who else would play if there was a new server, and who doesn't care. I don't want you to agree with me and I don't believe that only I know what's up with the game. Everyone has an opinion. This is how I feel about it. Any other questions?

Nicoli · January 2007

Actually from my understanding the china server start was horrible and was a utter mess. Fact of the matter is that with out veteran players with the heavier ships(namely Dreads), POS blobbing becomes a severe issue as its extremely hard to take one down. Most ships in PVP aren't HACs and with the new Battlecruisers and a few easy skills (1 month or so) you can easily cripple a HAC( they have severe cap issues)

Most of the issue with new players out in 0.0 is not from PVP but PVE, Within the first few days a player can be useful in PVP in either a basic cruiser or Frigate, the difficulty is tha with out access to a battleship its difficult for the new players to take down NPC belt rats solo. in fact bringing down some real life frriends down into BoB territory as soon as they can get a belt rat cappable ship neither is much over a month old.

PegasusJF · January 2007

Originally posted by Thinman
It's not about a HAC or how easy it is to train skills or anything else like that.
To put it simply: The fact that the server has been around so long, and a majority of the players are very powerful compared to a starting players, completely turns me off from the game. I do not want to have to wait 3 months, or 1 month, much less 1 week to have a ship that can't be killed in 10 seconds by someone else in the game. But that is a very small part of the whole that turns me off from the game.The fact that you are starting off, so far behind compared to the other players, with no chance of catching up, completely makes the game not worthwhile to me. Those that have played 2 years will always be ahead of the starting players, because of the nature of the system for levelling up in this game.This is not a whine or a rant, and was never intended to be. I just want to know who else would play if there was a new server, and who doesn't care. I don't want you to agree with me and I don't believe that only I know what's up with the game. Everyone has an opinion. This is how I feel about it. Any other questions?

I already imagined that you've heard or know of the arguements re: that skills only go so far both in player performance, necessary training for a particular goal, and the fact they end at level 5 so I won't repeat them.

But a new shard would do nothing to help EVE. It would splinter the playerbase, and ruin one of the great things in EVE, that everyone is on the same server. The entire playerbase is involved in the same game. It's hard to describe, but in a sandbox game like EVE, it's critical.

Also, at some point, if they did put up a new shards, new players would still be behind. At what interval do you wish CCP to keep adding new shards for the sake of fairness? Wouldn't such acts lessen the accomplishments of the veterans.

I started EVE around a year into it's launch, and I had little problem with the so called gap between vets and newbies. Now I've been playing for over two years. I honestly believe that skills are not that important.

You are free to your opinion sir, but I strongly disagree with it.

iCeh · January 2007

So what happens when in a few years time, this new server has too many high SP players in it? Start again? Would you start again on a new server? No, of course not.

Can you name any other game that has a level-advancing-type system, that you can compete against people that have been playing for years, and be able to take them out? I can't, but i know with EVE's system it is actually possible. There's all sorts of people in this game, and there's a lot that have been playing a long time, that won't even have skills to defend themselves, and some that do, but still can't manage to do it (there's dumb people everywhere, you know).

Your idea of a new server wouldn't help anyone (but yourself), as it'll just end up as the same situation now. I know you don't like it, but if this game isn't for you, then i think it's best that you just leave it and move on, as there's very little to no chance that CCP will open up a new server.

SonOfAGhost · January 2007

- Vast majority of Eve players are less than a year old, population has trippled in the last 18 months.

- New players now start with 800,000+ skill points. I've played 10 months and was helping a 2 day old newb with more gunnery skill points than me.

You did not quit Eve "because of the huge imbalance between what I could do, and what 90% of the playerbase could do". That wasn't true when you quit, and it's even further from the truth now. No need to make excuses, you quit Eve because it was (apparently) not the right game for you. Nothing wrong with that. However, a new server would not change that.

thrudd · January 2007

Originally posted by PegasusJF

Originally posted by Thinman

It's not about a HAC or how easy it is to train skills or anything else like that.

To put it simply: The fact that the server has been around so long, and a majority of the players are very powerful compared to a starting players, completely turns me off from the game. I do not want to have to wait 3 months, or 1 month, much less 1 week to have a ship that can't be killed in 10 seconds by someone else in the game. But that is a very small part of the whole that turns me off from the game.
The fact that you are starting off, so far behind compared to the other players, with no chance of catching up, completely makes the game not worthwhile to me. Those that have played 2 years will always be ahead of the starting players, because of the nature of the system for levelling up in this game.
This is not a whine or a rant, and was never intended to be. I just want to know who else would play if there was a new server, and who doesn't care. I don't want you to agree with me and I don't believe that only I know what's up with the game. Everyone has an opinion. This is how I feel about it. Any other questions?

I already imagined that you've heard or know of the arguements re: that skills only go so far both in player performance, necessary training for a particular goal, and the fact they end at level 5 so I won't repeat them.

But a new shard would do nothing to help EVE. It would splinter the playerbase, and ruin one of the great things in EVE, that everyone is on the same server. The entire playerbase is involved in the same game. It's hard to describe, but in a sandbox game like EVE, it's critical.

Also, at some point, if they did put up a new shards, new players would still be behind. At what interval do you wish CCP to keep adding new shards for the sake of fairness? Wouldn't such acts lessen the accomplishments of the veterans.

I started EVE around a year into it's launch, and I had little problem with the so called gap between vets and newbies. Now I've been playing for over two years. I honestly believe that skills are not that important.

You are free to your opinion sir, but I strongly disagree with it.

and the worst thing about the OP is that I now find myself in complete agreement with a FIX player !

godpuppet · January 2007

I think people need to great real over the fact they cant instantly pwn from day one. Losing teaches humility and makes the success all the more worthy when you achieve it. Enjoy the game at your current level, and if you really want to go around pwning people, join a corp with people lik eyourself and use teamwork...

5 destroyers flew by 1 month players can pwn a 2 year BS player.

Knackered · January 2007

I already made a thread about this. 9 Months to be "somewhat viable in PvP" is very, very far from the truth. Anyone could make a command ship pilot with near perfect skills for say an Astarte in 9 months - i'm not talking just the ship skills. I'm talking every single skill that affects that ship and its popular setup at level 4 or 5.

I create and sell alts. It is my business. You can make a frickin amazing HAC / Recon / Logistics (pick one) pilot in about 4-5 months - who will also be able to fly assault frigates or interceptors well during much of that time. Or in the same amount of time you could create a battlecruiser pilot who will give the average BS pilot a run for their money (note: oddly, battleships take some of the longest training times to fly effectively). It's all about focusing your training.

In 9 months, if you are only somewhat viable in PvP, you have spread out your skills too much (or you're an industry pilot). You've either been undecided on what you want to do in EVE, or you have changed your mind several times. Pick a path, stick to it, and the game isn't such a bitch. Skill training was always meant to be a planned thing, not "oh shield management is at level 3, what shall I pick next?".

Seriously, you could be a powerful Carrier pilot in 9 months, starting from scratch.

RollinDutch · January 2007

Originally posted by Thinman

If they were to start a new server, I would be all in, and I would play for a very long time.

No, you wouldn't. The reason that you think the skill system is holding you back is that you are simply bad at EVE, and you need to scapegoat something. You'd spend 2 months playing and then quit again, blaming something else for your failure.

Destroying the political character of the game so that people who are bad at EVE can blame something else for their failure sounds like a great idea... actually, great isnt the right word, whats that other word.... ahh, yes - craptastic. Your idea is craptastic.

Eschiava · January 2007

Originally posted by Thinman

To put it simply: The fact that the server has been around so long, and a majority of the players are very powerful compared to a starting players, completely turns me off from the game. I do not want to have to wait 3 months, or 1 month, much less 1 week to have a ship that can't be killed in 10 seconds by someone else in the game. But that is a very small part of the whole that turns me off from the game.

...

Everyone has an opinion. This is how I feel about it. Any other questions?

I understand how you feel about it, but, asking that you can survive a fight with a seasoned player after a week of play, and even that is too long, you say, is completely unrealistic, not only in EVE, but in any game that has any kind of skill advancement.

I believe that you would be better off, not on a new server, but in a game that doesn't rely on advancement at all. IMHO.

Thinman · January 2007

Well, for the people who felt the need to flame, your responses aren't worth replying to.

On to the actual worthwhile things that were pointed out/brought up..

Eve probably isn't the game for me, you're right. I could flame it or point out the things I don't like, but it's sufficient to say that I am an extremely capable gamer who can master and game that I come across, but in the end, Eve didn't grab me the way that some games do. It never felt worthwhile to go "all in", and really pwn people.

I usually just wandered around systems until I got bored (within 1 hour). I never really got into much PvP in the first place. The combat just isn't intruiging to me.

A new server would make it interesting for me, but ultimately, why try to be "good" (as whoever that was put it), at something that you don't enjoy?

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if someone will read into my posts what they want to. I know that I don't know everything.

Novalith · January 2007

Originally posted by iCeh

So what happens when in a few years time, this new server has too many high SP players in it? Start again? Would you start again on a new server? No, of course not.
Can you name any other game that has a level-advancing-type system, that you can compete against people that have been playing for years, and be able to take them out? I can't, but i know with EVE's system it is actually possible. There's all sorts of people in this game, and there's a lot that have been playing a long time, that won't even have skills to defend themselves, and some that do, but still can't manage to do it (there's dumb people everywhere, you know).
Your idea of a new server wouldn't help anyone (but yourself), as it'll just end up as the same situation now. I know you don't like it, but if this game isn't for you, then i think it's best that you just leave it and move on, as there's very little to no chance that CCP will open up a new server.

Guild Wars.

Eschiava · January 2007

Perhaps part of the problem is the impression that you seem to have that the main purpose of EVE is to "really pwn people".

True, PvP is part of the game, but it is only one part of the EVE universe. I believe that there are many more satisfied EVE players who try to experience the whole of what EVE is all about rather than those who tend to focus on only one part of it.

RollinDutch · January 2007

Originally posted by Thinman

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if someone will read into my posts what they want to. I know that I don't know everything.

I don't care that you didn't like EVE. That's fine. I don't care that you didn't like the combat, the skill system, really anything to be honest. That's fine too. People have different tastes.

Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.

Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.

Eschiava · January 2007

Ouch!!!

Itsmee · January 2007

Originally posted by RollinDutch

Originally posted by Thinman

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if someone will read into my posts what they want to. I know that I don't know everything.

I don't care that you didn't like EVE. That's fine. I don't care that you didn't like the combat, the skill system, really anything to be honest. That's fine too. People have different tastes.

Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.

Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.

And there we have it RollinDutch win the post

The server is fine, the skill system is fine.. the problem is some people just don't understand that having 60 million skill points doesn't make you a better pvp'er then someone with 6 million skill points.

PegasusJF · January 2007

Originally posted by thrudd

and the worst thing about the OP is that I now find myself in complete agreement with a FIX player !

Well, if this doesn't open the door to diplomacy I don't know what will! :P

LordSlater · January 2007

You should try flying the curse now that is a great PvP ship and is a lot cheape rthan a HAC.

Novalith · January 2007

Originally posted by RollinDutch

Originally posted by Thinman

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if someone will read into my posts what they want to. I know that I don't know everything.

I don't care that you didn't like EVE. That's fine. I don't care that you didn't like the combat, the skill system, really anything to be honest. That's fine too. People have different tastes.

Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.

Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.

This was primarily directed at RollinDutch, but I feel contains valid points for everyone.

What the OP said was that the game in its current state was not possible for HIM to get into. He wanted to know if others felt the same way. Before you posted that mini-tirade as I call it, someone else said almost the same thing but in a much more tactful way. Bottom line is you dont feel the same way he does. Thats fine, move on.

The way the system is now, if I started today, all things being equal, I could never catch a player who started 9 months ago. They would always be 9 months (roughly) ahead of me and thats that.

While it is true that top tier players will put the smack down on the so called "n00bs" in almost every case, the difference is the amount of time it takes said new player to be on the same level as the older players. Most games have some sort of achievable "end state". The point at which your character stops developing and the whole purpose of the game is to play with friends, kill the tough mobs and get the coolest loot.

Take Guild Wars for example. Once you hit level 20 and have every skill in the game, there is nothing else for your character to achieve development wise. My necromancer has every necro skill in the game, is level 20, and the only other possible milestone is for her to get every skill in the game for the other 9 classes as well. If you were to start today with the goal of getting every necro skill in the game as I have, you could achieve it in less then 6 months. Whats even more, is that if you just want to compete on the same level as me, you dont even NEED every necro skill. Just the ones for the builds that I use which is significantly less. That goal is achievable in about 3 months of fairly dedicated play. Longer obviously if you cannot play as much.

In Eve, that wont happen. I wont ever catch the people playing since day one, because even they dont have every skill in the game maxed out (I think I read somewhere that the time it would take to do such a thing is longer the game has been released for or some such, but I could be wrong), So my next best hope is to be just as good at whatever it is that I want to do as someone who has played from the begining. What he is saying is the length of time it would take him to reach that point is not worth his time.

He isnt trying to speak for everyone, he is only trying to find out if others feel the same. No need to resort to name calling to try to get your point across.

You said that "thinking the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means you sucked at Eve".

Actually, that is EXACTLY what makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets. Name anything that a person who has been playing for 1 week can do better then someone who has had say...9 months to play. Especially if the 9 month vet developed their character correctly.

I will say that any skill system makes any game this way. Level 20 is alyways better then level 1. Period. In order for a game to be "fair" across the board all rewards for playing would have to have nothing to do with your character or his equipment getting better. No MMORPG out there is like this (in my experience). Eve does things in such a way that I feel it might be harder them most for a new player, but the fact that life as a new player is difficult is true in every game.

I played eve for 3-4 months. I also quit, not because of the skill system, but because of an exploit that made griefing not only possible, but easy. I don't play games to be griefed. I have played GW from day 1. I have never been griefed. For that it earns my undying love.

Eschiava · January 2007

Novalith,

It's good to hear that you like GW so well, you have played a lot and it is obvious that you have a very good understanding of the game and its mechanics.

I appreciated your description of GW skills, and though I no longer play, I can confirm that you speack of them accurately.

Funny thing is though, as you were making your case for GW, in my mind I was checking off the similarities between it and EVE. Almost without exception, all of the good points you make concerning GW apply to EVE equally well. I haven't had that much time in the game (EVE), but I am able to see that anyway.

And that is what as earned EVE my deepest respect, because, not only does it manage to avoid the same pitfalls as GW has avoided, it also is the most incredibly depth filled game I have had the good fortune to experience.

Regards,

Eschi

jezvin · January 2007

The only thing that is keeping me from eve is the fact that the people who started before me will always be better no matter what.

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