No, we dont need griefing to make it dangerous and thrilling, but we need a open system. Not everyone, who want to kill you, or want the resources from you is a griefer. This are tactical and meaningful warfare, war about resources, war about territory, war about something real, and not just fighting about the sake of fighting.
But, we have to accept some griefers, that is the point.
And i do not want to make kamikaze, i want to have that everything i do have a point, is meaningful.
And resourcefarming especially is just meaningful, if you can fight over resources, if it is dangerous, without it, it is just farming, and i really dont like farming.
And the griefers are in danger. They can not easily build up a city, ok, they can, but if they do they can lose everything almost the same like anyone else. Griefers will be hunted, evil players in general, not every evil player will be a griefer, but the griefer will hate it to be hunted, killed a lot. The real evil player, which play it, because he love it, will have not as much problems, because it is his choice of playing. And i described this all in a post before.
I am interested in a game where intelligence and skill are most important, and gear / levels do not matter. The developers of this game seem to be making a similiar game to UO, which was a fantastic game. If they are smart the will make sure they have something similiar to the Trammel patch in place before release of the game. If they dont then the game will flop, which would be a shame because this game does have potential.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
-Brainy, Im interested in the same game as you but I am skeptical that DF will be a modern day UO. UO was not a PvP centric game, it just happened to have open PvP as part of its ruleset. Take a look at what happened to Shadowbane, which was marketted as a PvP centric MMO, it was basically RPG Quake with a grind. I think Guild Wars is a good example of what Shadowbane should have been.
As for DF I sure hope there is more to the game than just the PvP that is the most hyped feature. Otherwise, like you say, it may not realize its potential.
I'm tired of the "holy cow" status UO has become. Especially with regards to DF. Good god, UO was good but it wasn't THAT good. Let's face it, it was more of the fact that it was the only "real" mmorpg released at the time and EVERYONE played it. It was great because it was populated and not because of some all-knowing developer that had innate abilities to create the perfect game.
Syloc, you are correct that the original UO reputation has been raised to mythical proportions. Like you say much of it has to do with the time at which it was released. As much as I enjoyed it at the time, it would not hold my interest now, even with a graphics facelift.
What the developers do deserve kudos for, even to this day is the approach they took with the intended experience for the player. Garriott said himself that the game was an experiment. They were not sure how it would unfold; they were going to give the tools to the players and see what they made with it (aka the living game). In that respect it was THAT good, the initial concept has not been bettered IMO. Once the financial viability of MMO's was established, other companies took note and came up with their offerings but with a somewhat more controlled gaming experience to avoid the uproars that occured with UO.
Originally posted by Syloc [rant] I'm tired of the "holy cow" status UO has become. Especially with regards to DF. Good god, UO was good but it wasn't THAT good. Let's face it, it was more of the fact that it was the only "real" mmorpg released at the time and EVERYONE played it. It was great because it was populated and not because of some all-knowing developer that had innate abilities to create the perfect game. [/rant] Back to the topic at hand! -Syloc
Well I agree if you compare todays games to UO, then UO falls short mainly because of graphics, and the contents is a dated. However if UO rereleased with additional content and graphics proportional to any new major release, I think it would be the best hands down. Lets look at where UO still excels even after 10 years. I have to admit I havent played every MMORPG but from what I have heard or had experience in this is where UO is still the best or at least top 3.
Housing - Customization, Storage, Design, Land Plots ....
Quick Travel - Rune Books, Recall / Gate scrolls and spells, Mark, and of course Horses and Moongates.
Crafting - Just plain awesome
Economy - Vibrant player economy, used resources, outstanding all around
Vendors - Player vendors all over and useful
Item Storage/Space - Packs, Houses, Banks, boats. Tons of storage allowed, and the way items are moved in pack is great, not the square item slot in backpack only allowed 16 items like WoW. In UO you could move stuff around drop it on ground transfer to players and vendors and house quickly and very useful.
PVP - Was skill based, pretty much balanced, none of this im higher level so better stuff, or rock paper scissors this class better then this class. Player experience was the most important factor.
Taming - So much to tame, just a very fun concept, also can ride a bunch of these animals
Treasure Hunting - Another extremely fun profession, people love to tag along on the high level treasure hunts, fun for alot of people.
Fishing - Again another fun profession
Boats - Most games dont even bother with it, UO boats were actually somewhat useful.
Item modifications - Huge variety of item mods in the game, you never knew which combo you might actually get, this would add right into the economy, people would pay big money for the right equipment modifications.
Clothing and Character customization - Every person could be unique, unlike WoW where every single person of a given class looks the same. Some people made an entire game of making clothing and stuff for people.
Skill based not Level based - This is just the preferred way for many players.
Rares Items and Collectibles - There were soooooo many awesome collectible items in this game, from singing crystal balls to just plain rocks, dye tubs, many more, people could make stuff out of items like fishtanks in thier house, just soooo many things, this alone some people could spend thier entire UO life just being Rare Item Collectors/Traders.
Just overall flexibility - Basically someone could do all of the above. They were not limited by some class/race/realm where they could only experience 1/10th of the content. If someone wanted to do all of the above they could. Might take a few characters to max all skills but skilling up in UO was quick. Basically the end game was the fun part and the point, not the skilling/leveling.
There are probably another dozen things I am forgeting off the top of my head.
Its all of the above that made people look back at UO with awe. The game was multifaceted, and far ahead of its time. Think how simple the games now are compared. Most games now only excel in a couple of things, and dont even try to be good in multiple areas.
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by Apraxis Ok.. back to the DAoC example.
Yes DAoC was divided into pvp zones. But in each pvp zone it is the same as in Darkfall.
BG20-24 - One lvl 24 could easily kill 4 lvl20 50 Frontiers - One RR8 could easily kill 4 RR1
With other worlds the lvl difference between the DAoC zones is exactly the same as in Darkfall generally. Maybe it is in DAoC even a little bit more.
You also denied all other forms of griefing, so just one left. One guy kill another guy during lvling or some other actions, when he is not prepared. And you a said this was not the point in DAoC.
And now i say it is also not the point in Darkfall.
You said, if you entered the pvp zones you were prepared.
And i say, if you leave the towns in Darkfall you should be also prepared.
In other words.. it is exactly the same. Plus you have in Darkfall a lot of other mechanismn to stop a lot of things nevertheless.
First your RR8 killing 4 RR1's scenario is far fetched. Only way this would happen is if the RR1's choose not to fight. Maybe in some rare case, but certainly not the norm. Sounds to me like you never even played the game in an PVP/RVR capacity.
Your point of leaving town being prepared is just an unintelligent remark. That would be like the police saying they wont protect you from thieves and murderers if you leave your house. You should just be prepared. LOL ya that makes alot of sense. Let the world have utter chaos just so a few griefers can run around making havoc because they cant be bothered to actually go to a pvp zone and fight people thier own skill/level. No we must allow newbs to be constantly bombarded by griefers.
Hmmm let me see if I understand this. You suggest that someone shouldnt solo PVE, craft, get resources .... unless they are perfectly OK with griefers taking everything they have. There is a smart move on the part of the game developers. Lets inconvievence 98% of the population so that 2% of the population can have a great time at the expense of everyone else.
I got a better idea. How about they just ban the 2% of the population that is causing this problem. That way the other 98% of the population can enjoy a pvp game and not a griefing game. Maybe then the game might actually get subscribers? An even better idea, implement the rules necessary to keep the 2% away from the game in the first place, or if they do decide to join, they cannot achieve their goals to grief?
See? thats the point, The game aims to that 2% Who like open PVP, No carebear stuff. And Thats good! Lets face it, Today's games try to please everyone, and thats Where they fail. At least darkfall aims to a specific type of players, PVPERS. If it's too hardcore for you, go look for something else. (WOW for example).
Originally posted by Brainy Well ganking is not the same as PVP imo. I think what you are talking about is evenly skill/pvp/gear, which is not ganking IMO. Ganking is when the attacker chooses to kill people that they know have no chance of defending themselves. Im all for PVP. but what im talking about that is a problem is ganking. There will be newb locations where gankers will know there is no way you will win. If there was a way you would win then they would bring 10 v 1 therefore you still wouldnt win. If you bring the 20 people vs thier 1 you would be the ganker. Same concept really. Either way it will all be about ganking. Its really too bad they cant make a PVP game where the majority of fights are even, except for skill/intelligence. Guess that concept is a pipe dream. Seems these developers either support ganking, or class imbalances, super classes/abilities.
in every "TRUE" pvp game, there is ganking, Just deal with it. Maybe pvp game is not for you, Go play games, that have arena PVP or something.. Anyways, this game is not for carebears, annd you are 1 of them.
Originally posted by acmtalk See? thats the point, The game aims to that 2% Who like open PVP, No carebear stuff. And Thats good! Lets face it, Today's games try to please everyone, and thats Where they fail. At least darkfall aims to a specific type of players, PVPERS. If it's too hardcore for you, go look for something else. (WOW for example).
Well see you have yourself a dichotomy here.
Lets say that the MMORPG player base is around 15mil people. If you could get all 2% of them to play this game 300,000. That seems like enough to be successful. However there is a problem.
All of those players are griefers and they dont play well together. They like to grief, not be griefed. They like to make peoples lives miserable, but they dont like to be miserable. They need victims. So lets suppose you could get get 30% of the players playing this game to come from other games like EQ to be your victims.
Well griefers in other games can make serious havoc on at game while only representing 2% of the population. Imagine the destruction and misery they will cause when they represent 70% of a games players. LoL no way the carebears would stay in the game. Therefore they would leave, no victims for the griefers so they would leave. Game dies, griefers whine in threads like this asking for another game to release to be a griefest. This game could be added to the list of dieing grief games like SB?
So even if you could get all your griefers to join a game, still they couldnt be happy. So if a game developer wants to actually make money, it would be best to just ban the griefers and let them whine.
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by Syloc [rant] I'm tired of the "holy cow" status UO has become. Especially with regards to DF. Good god, UO was good but it wasn't THAT good. Let's face it, it was more of the fact that it was the only "real" mmorpg released at the time and EVERYONE played it. It was great because it was populated and not because of some all-knowing developer that had innate abilities to create the perfect game. [/rant] Back to the topic at hand! -Syloc
Well I agree if you compare todays games to UO, then UO falls short mainly because of graphics, and the contents is a dated. However if UO rereleased with additional content and graphics proportional to any new major release, I think it would be the best hands down. Lets look at where UO still excels even after 10 years. I have to admit I havent played every MMORPG but from what I have heard or had experience in this is where UO is still the best or at least top 3.
I agree with you, it had the right approach to do such thing like a virtual online world, and not just a simple game. But well, it was just the first try and it lacked a lot of other things, also technically it was not as much possible, as it would nowadays.
Housing - Customization, Storage, Design, Land Plots ....
Not much to add, maybe just that the houses in it self was to static, that become problem a little later, to much houses all over the world. If you can fight over land and with it over houses, you could maybe solve this problem. But how to make it fair and not to easy griefable. I think the approach of Darkfall to this is rather good.
Quick Travel - Rune Books, Recall / Gate scrolls and spells, Mark, and of course Horses and Moongates.
Ok, it was the best quick travel method, the question is just, is this kind of quick travel really useful over time? I think not, because it reduce the size of the world. You traveled just once to far away regions or island, after some time you just teleport, and the world become rather small. Darkfall try to limit teleportation in some way, but make it possible with marking runes and as it was in UO. A good idea, i just hope they are really able to limit teleportation to some extend.
Crafting - Just plain awesome
Ok, nothing to add. UO was the only MMORPG i played i enjoyed crafting, but mostly because of the economy, because your items were really needed.
Economy - Vibrant player economy, used resources, outstanding all around
True, absolutely, but after the introduction of trammel and the safe way to gather resources inflation hit UO and the economy was destroyed over some time. This is also a reason why we need a open system, so it is hard to gather and controll resource spots, so you can fight a meaningful fight over those resources. One of the main aspects, why Darkfall will be so much better than UO was.
Vendors - Player vendors all over and useful
Item Storage/Space - Packs, Houses, Banks, boats. Tons of storage allowed, and the way items are moved in pack is great, not the square item slot in backpack only allowed 16 items like WoW. In UO you could move stuff around drop it on ground transfer to players and vendors and house quickly and very useful.
Both true, and not really anything to add. Maybe the effect, which had the weight of items and the effect to it to your movement speed. This is because a lot of reasons usefull. Withit horses comes into play to store your stuff and so on, and with the loot idea, you were limited what you could loot and carry and what not. You had to made a decision. By the way, i think it is also required, that you cant destroy items easily, they should be able to salvage back to resources, but just at a forge or similar fixed points.
PVP - Was skill based, pretty much balanced, none of this im higher level so better stuff, or rock paper scissors this class better then this class. Player experience was the most important factor.
Absolutely true, but nevertheless, the difference between the noob and the 7gm was a little bit to high, i think darkfall will also fix this. And nowadays there is a lot more possible than it was in the time of UO. Now we have a lot better fighting and magic system available, but skilled based, too.
Taming - So much to tame, just a very fun concept, also can ride a bunch of these animals
Yeah, i liked it, too. But on the other side it was normally not as much fun to fight against a pet master.. nevertheless taiming especially to ride those animals or just for fun was a really good thing. I hope Darkfall will bring back taming before release, but reduce the ability to fight with your pets.
Treasure Hunting - Another extremely fun profession, people love to tag along on the high level treasure hunts, fun for alot of people
Fishing - Again another fun profession
Nothing to add.
Boats - Most games dont even bother with it, UO boats were actually somewhat useful.
True, and in darkfall it will be even more usefull, with limited teleportation, and naval combat it could be really glorious.
Item modifications - Huge variety of item mods in the game, you never knew which combo you might actually get, this would add right into the economy, people would pay big money for the right equipment modifications.
Clothing and Character customization - Every person could be unique, unlike WoW where every single person of a given class looks the same. Some people made an entire game of making clothing and stuff for people.
Both of them are really important, and maybe much more important, that the effect of items was not a game deciding factor, it add something, it was useful, but not a breaking point like in games like WoW, and so on.
Skill based not Level based - This is just the preferred way for many players.
Rares Items and Collectibles - There were soooooo many awesome collectible items in this game, from singing crystal balls to just plain rocks, dye tubs, many more, people could make stuff out of items like fishtanks in thier house, just soooo many things, this alone some people could spend thier entire UO life just being Rare Item Collectors/Traders.
So true, and the best of it.. those rare items have never effected the fight, those items were just to collect and for some fun things, and a good investion, too.
Just overall flexibility - Basically someone could do all of the above. They were not limited by some class/race/realm where they could only experience 1/10th of the content. If someone wanted to do all of the above they could. Might take a few characters to max all skills but skilling up in UO was quick. Basically the end game was the fun part and the point, not the skilling/leveling.
Absolutely right.
There are probably another dozen things I am forgeting off the top of my head.
Its all of the above that made people look back at UO with awe. The game was multifaceted, and far ahead of its time. Think how simple the games now are compared. Most games now only excel in a couple of things, and dont even try to be good in multiple areas.
I really thing Darkfall would be the right game for you. And not everyone will be a griefer in Darkfall, my guess is they will just be a minority as in everygame out there. And darkfall has more than enough to controll them to some extend. But as i described in a lot of posts now, you cant get rid off them completely, you need a open and free system for a lot of things, to be fun. Be it roleplaying, be it the economy, be it the meaningful fight and a lot of other things darkfall offers, but in the other hand it will be more dangerous(and this could be fun, too, or not?) and some griefer will use this maybe to their advantage. But i think it will be much harder for griefers in DF than in a lot of other games out there.
But however, i think we have discussed about this issues more than enough, the best advice i can give you is, just test darkfall and decide by yourself if it is the game for you, or not. And i do really not know what i can say anymore.. really. Everything is said.
Originally posted by Apraxis I really thing Darkfall would be the right game for you. And not everyone will be a griefer in Darkfall, my guess is they will just be a minority as in everygame out there. And darkfall has more than enough to controll them to some extend. But as i described in a lot of posts now, you cant get rid off them completely, you need a open and free system for a lot of things, to be fun. Be it roleplaying, be it the economy, be it the meaningful fight and a lot of other things darkfall offers, but in the other hand it will be more dangerous(and this could be fun, too, or not?) and some griefer will use this maybe to their advantage. But i think it will be much harder for griefers in DF than in a lot of other games out there.
But however, i think we have discussed about this issues more than enough, the best advice i can give you is, just test darkfall and decide by yourself if it is the game for you, or not. And i do really not know what i can say anymore.. really. Everything is said.
Darkfall looks like a game with great potential. No doubt, thats why im interested. I think a few people here confuse my defense of anti griefing to mean that I myself am worried how it will effect me. I am not personally concerned about griefing on me at all actually. I can defend myself damn well, and dont have any problem dealing with griefing until I get to a point where I will kill any griefer that I see. Likely they wont even bother me because thats how griefers are, they dont like risk, and fighting me would be a huge risk on thier part. In addition at the high end of the game I dont pve much so thats not gonna be a problem.
I think a few people have misunderstood. I am not afraid of griefing for me, but for the health of the game. I would like the game to appeal to a broader base, that way this game can afford to do the things UO couldnt. I am not talking an entire revamping of the game into WoW or EQ land. But just a few minor changes to discourage griefing and encourage PVP.
Although, I have to admit, that griefing was one of my main occupation in shadowbane...the hardcore-PvP community HAS to be in the minority. If you believe in the supply and demand aspect of economics, reason dictates that the games being released are a representation of what the mmo community demands.
Lets face it, Darkfall is poorly funded. Hell they changed ownership and developers since they initally announced the game.
I'm all for a hardcore-PvP based game because that is the mainstay of what the fans of DF want... but I also want some sort of meaningful PvE in the game as well. For those of you that have been playing the hardcore-PvP Uo/SB style, it does get repetative after awhile.
Not really. There's tons of stuff other than PvP. It's just in for the realism feeling. You CAN kill everything and that's as cool as it can get.
If u rp, craft or so on you will not have to pvp ever.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Well considering they have released ZEROOOOO information about the "other" things we can do, I can only assume they're at the SB stage of PvE, which is zero.
What's they've given us so far are some generalities that could mean a number of things. They say resources will be fought over for crafting, this could mean fighting over mines and guild-based crafters only; which is not meaningful PvE. They've mentioned ZERO about normal quests being implemented but have suggested therre are epci quests.
Sure you can kill everything... but that doesn't mean that "everything" will be limited to stand-in-one-place npcs. Whuuppiee do!
And if you really get down to it, Shadowband and UO have proved that RP is very limited in an open pvp aspect. Sure it's there; but don't get your hopes up to spending gobs of time doing the cool stuff you dream of doing with it. (baring an RP area/server).
Like Darkfall said on their website, Sure you dont have to join a guild or PvP... but it will be a VERY hard life for you.
Originally posted by Syloc Like Darkfall said on their website, Sure you dont have to join a guild or PvP... but it will be a VERY hard life for you. Out of the dev's lips and into our ears. -Syloc
They said that? If thats what is required, they will live to eat those words. but it will be a VERY hard life for you, which is why we dont expect to operate long because we wont have any subscribers.
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by Syloc Like Darkfall said on their website, Sure you dont have to join a guild or PvP... but it will be a VERY hard life for you. Out of the dev's lips and into our ears. -Syloc
They said that? If thats what is required, they will live to eat those words. but it will be a VERY hard life for you, which is why we dont expect to operate long because we wont have any subscribers.
Originally posted by Brainy Its really too bad they cant make a PVP game where the majority of fights are even, except for skill/intelligence. Guess that concept is a pipe dream. Seems these developers either support ganking, or class imbalances, super classes/abilities.
Originally posted by Syloc Well considering they have released ZEROOOOO information about the "other" things we can do, I can only assume they're at the SB stage of PvE, which is zero. What's they've given us so far are some generalities that could mean a number of things. They say resources will be fought over for crafting, this could mean fighting over mines and guild-based crafters only; which is not meaningful PvE. They've mentioned ZERO about normal quests being implemented but have suggested therre are epci quests. Sure you can kill everything... but that doesn't mean that "everything" will be limited to stand-in-one-place npcs. Whuuppiee do! And if you really get down to it, Shadowband and UO have proved that RP is very limited in an open pvp aspect. Sure it's there; but don't get your hopes up to spending gobs of time doing the cool stuff you dream of doing with it. (baring an RP area/server). Like Darkfall said on their website, Sure you dont have to join a guild or PvP... but it will be a VERY hard life for you. Out of the dev's lips and into our ears. -Syloc
Sorry, your informations are just wrong. And this is not the frist time. Please reread the FAQ and dont post bullshit or just wrong informations.
Here some quotes from the FAQ and the Link to the FAQ for you to reread it:
Do I have to join a Clan? Darkfall can be played any way you want. If you want to get involved in conquest, wars, and ruling kingdoms, you join a clan, or get together with some friends and start your own, but you do not have to.
What other options other than joining a Clan do I have? You are only limited by your imagination in what else you can do, but here are some examples to get you going:
You could be a lone adventurer, hunting for treasure, magical items and fame, or a mercenary selling your services to the highest bidder. You may choose to play a merchant, setting up caravans and shops in different cities, buying high quality hides from Mahirim hunters and selling them for top prices at Human cities. You could hook up with a few friends and be pirates, sailing your galleon around, plundering merchant ships, or choose to play the Dwarven blacksmith, crafting mighty magical weapons and armor, or perhaps a farmer producing rare herbs and spell reagents. The possibilities are limitless.
You can do a lot of things without a clan, but it is true, that you need a clan to build up a empire, but you can without participate in different actions connected with empire building and warfare. You can be the merchant, which trade with them, or the mercenary, which fight for them.. or whatever you want.
And they had released zero information about other things to do? Damn.. there are a lot of information around about other actions beside of pvp. Look again at the Darkfall site and read the FAQ, read the IGN Previews, read a lot of IRC chats with the dev and all information around.. and you will find a lot of things.
Make a Games equal then Other......why play the new game?
or
Make a FUll loot PVP Different the other tons of Stupid MMORPG for kids....I buy your game because are different and all of players that like full PVP system will do the same.
You peeps need to go to darkfallonline.com and read up on the game via the site info and forums... Also i hear darkfallinfo.com is a good site, because so many people say we have no info about this or that when in truth we know so much... Just read up before you start throwing bogus info out there
>mainly referring to Sylocs post on this thread but it applies to a much larger audience<
Another one of these topics. They appear on every board it seems. I will make this short and to the point.
EVE. EVE. EVE. EVE. That's right, EVE. Take EVE make it into a fantasy game and you have the best PvP system.
1. Players must be able to lose everything.
2. Players must be able to live in peace when they cannot compete in PvP. This is empire space in EVE.
3. The rest just comes with these two basic steps.
4. Although this is fairly obvious to me its not to other so I will elaborate. The area designated to #2 must not be as good as the area designated to #1. There must be a reason for people to leave #2, the rewards. Risk vs Reward. That is what a PvP game must be about. The ability to have everything with the ability to lose everything.
Since this has turned into a griefing debate, we need to define terms. I see some people talking at cross purposes. Greifing is not PvP. PvP is simply players fighting other players. To say griefing is PvP is like saying stealing is a bunsiess transaction. Sure.. money changes hands, but that's not the point.
Example of griefing (BAD PvP): In Shadowbane, for example, you don't get anything (gold, items or experience) from killing anyone of a substantially lower level than you. There is NO BENEFIT other than the joy of doing it. Go far enough down in victim level and a group of ten (max # for a group) have no chance of defeating you and little chance of escape. It's not a challenge for you and it doesn't teach the newbie anything he doesn't already know (namely that you can kill him anytime you like) The game engine does not reward or penalize this behavior. You can hang out outside a town and kill newbies all day, then walk right in and buy a few paltry things with the change you've accumulated. The guards won't stop you and you can turn right around and do the same thing tomorrow. If someone gets together a posse to hunt you down, you might have to move or log until they forget. Then you can go right back to it, because the other players aren't there to be the police. They're there to play the game. If there was an NPC in the game who did the same thing, you better believe the players would be breaking down the devs doors to get them to remove it. Why? Because it's unfair, impossible to avoid and doesn't add anything to the game except the chance to die a quick death anywhere at any time.
I know that's an extreme case, but I've met players who do pretty much exactly that. Why? Just because. But more importantly, How can you defend people who do do that? The response I usually get is "Well that's what this game is all about." Which is total BS. It's simply not enough to not reward such behavior. You have to penalize it, and you have to penalize it with the game system. The info on Darlfall says they're going to deal with it. Don't know exactly how effective it's going to be, but I do know that a day or two after the game launches, a whole bunch of griefers will respond "The game will be ruined if you don't lift those restrictions." If the devs capitulate, then the game will be ruined. If they don't, then they'll loose some players and maybe get some bad press, but it will be a much better game in the long run.
I realise that this post was created a long time ago, and is perhaps a bit long in the tooth but I have to say that this is the game I'm most looking forward to right now because of everything that's been posted here. Good & bad.
Brainy's replies have been the most thought provoking to be honest, though at times it has seemed like he hasn't listened to what other people have said Then again it might be because he's just playing Devil's advocate about how the game might fail if it doesn't look after the playerbase. And that, is obviously what keeps a game from becoming a success or a failure.
Anyway, after everything I've read the things that sound great (and I really hope make the game a success) are the open PVP coupled with racial enmities and the alignment system. The game does state all this on the official webby, so there shouldn't be any confusion as to what players are getting themselves into.
Killing a racial enemy actually gains an alignment bonus. Killing your own race or racial friend does the opposite. An Ork griefer who kills an Elf near Elven noobyville is a hero, and why shouldn't he be ? He's just braved being KOS to every single Elf in the whole area, not to mention their friends the Humans and Dwarfs whether PC or NPC as he's KOS anyway. If he tried the same thing killing noobs outside the Ork capital then he's just made himself KOS to his own people.... not many places left to run to now apart from the Mahirim towns. Still, near Elfville he now probably has a whole town after him, and if they catch him, he's going to lose EVERYTHING !
Nice unique set of armour... ? Bye.
Uber rare weapon... ? Bye.
Respawn in a loincloth and a wooden spoon... ? Hello.
A few people have also mentioned EVE, and right now I think that's the best comparison that can be made to the kind of game I hope DF will be. EVE is a PVP game, but there are safe areas (though not 100% safe). Pirates, killers & griefers are all valid professions but they also have consequences and their own version of alignment. EVE has gone from strength to strength because it has balanced risk vs reward and I hope DF does the same.
What I like the sound of most though is that in DF you have no name tag or glowing neon bar above your head to give you away, so tactics, ambushes, full on friendly fire (which will cause havoc in blobs), the element of surprise and use of your environment will mean more than being a beefcake with uber fittings trying to take on an army.
It sounds exciting. Cause and effect. Risk vs reward - I can't wait
Sorry but the purpose of the pvp system in Darkfall is to provide roleplaying, its not about killing its about you having the controll of your own actions. The freedom to be the character you want to be rather then the character the games rules limit you to be.
Comments
No, we dont need griefing to make it dangerous and thrilling, but we need a open system. Not everyone, who want to kill you, or want the resources from you is a griefer. This are tactical and meaningful warfare, war about resources, war about territory, war about something real, and not just fighting about the sake of fighting.
But, we have to accept some griefers, that is the point.
And i do not want to make kamikaze, i want to have that everything i do have a point, is meaningful.
And resourcefarming especially is just meaningful, if you can fight over resources, if it is dangerous, without it, it is just farming, and i really dont like farming.
And the griefers are in danger. They can not easily build up a city, ok, they can, but if they do they can lose everything almost the same like anyone else. Griefers will be hunted, evil players in general, not every evil player will be a griefer, but the griefer will hate it to be hunted, killed a lot. The real evil player, which play it, because he love it, will have not as much problems, because it is his choice of playing. And i described this all in a post before.
I am interested in a game where intelligence and skill are most important, and gear / levels do not matter. The developers of this game seem to be making a similiar game to UO, which was a fantastic game. If they are smart the will make sure they have something similiar to the Trammel patch in place before release of the game. If they dont then the game will flop, which would be a shame because this game does have potential.
If the griefers like yourself really want an OPEN pvp griefest, I suppose they could release 1 server that doesnt have rules. Nobody would play on it, because griefers cant play together. But at least doing that wouldnt destroy the entire game, and it would placate a few antisocial players. Sorta like Mordred DAOC server that begs for players to play on it.
-Brainy, Im interested in the same game as you but I am skeptical that DF will be a modern day UO. UO was not a PvP centric game, it just happened to have open PvP as part of its ruleset. Take a look at what happened to Shadowbane, which was marketted as a PvP centric MMO, it was basically RPG Quake with a grind. I think Guild Wars is a good example of what Shadowbane should have been.
As for DF I sure hope there is more to the game than just the PvP that is the most hyped feature. Otherwise, like you say, it may not realize its potential.
[rant]
I'm tired of the "holy cow" status UO has become. Especially with regards to DF. Good god, UO was good but it wasn't THAT good. Let's face it, it was more of the fact that it was the only "real" mmorpg released at the time and EVERYONE played it. It was great because it was populated and not because of some all-knowing developer that had innate abilities to create the perfect game.
[/rant]
Back to the topic at hand!
-Syloc
Visit My fantasy Blog! http://fantasyglobe.blogspot.com/
What the developers do deserve kudos for, even to this day is the approach they took with the intended experience for the player. Garriott said himself that the game was an experiment. They were not sure how it would unfold; they were going to give the tools to the players and see what they made with it (aka the living game). In that respect it was THAT good, the initial concept has not been bettered IMO. Once the financial viability of MMO's was established, other companies took note and came up with their offerings but with a somewhat more controlled gaming experience to avoid the uproars that occured with UO.
Well I agree if you compare todays games to UO, then UO falls short mainly because of graphics, and the contents is a dated. However if UO rereleased with additional content and graphics proportional to any new major release, I think it would be the best hands down. Lets look at where UO still excels even after 10 years. I have to admit I havent played every MMORPG but from what I have heard or had experience in this is where UO is still the best or at least top 3.
There are probably another dozen things I am forgeting off the top of my head.
Its all of the above that made people look back at UO with awe. The game was multifaceted, and far ahead of its time. Think how simple the games now are compared. Most games now only excel in a couple of things, and dont even try to be good in multiple areas.
First your RR8 killing 4 RR1's scenario is far fetched. Only way this would happen is if the RR1's choose not to fight. Maybe in some rare case, but certainly not the norm. Sounds to me like you never even played the game in an PVP/RVR capacity.
Your point of leaving town being prepared is just an unintelligent remark. That would be like the police saying they wont protect you from thieves and murderers if you leave your house. You should just be prepared. LOL ya that makes alot of sense. Let the world have utter chaos just so a few griefers can run around making havoc because they cant be bothered to actually go to a pvp zone and fight people thier own skill/level. No we must allow newbs to be constantly bombarded by griefers.
Hmmm let me see if I understand this. You suggest that someone shouldnt solo PVE, craft, get resources .... unless they are perfectly OK with griefers taking everything they have. There is a smart move on the part of the game developers. Lets inconvievence 98% of the population so that 2% of the population can have a great time at the expense of everyone else.
I got a better idea. How about they just ban the 2% of the population that is causing this problem. That way the other 98% of the population can enjoy a pvp game and not a griefing game. Maybe then the game might actually get subscribers? An even better idea, implement the rules necessary to keep the 2% away from the game in the first place, or if they do decide to join, they cannot achieve their goals to grief?
See? thats the point, The game aims to that 2% Who like open PVP, No carebear stuff. And Thats good! Lets face it, Today's games try to please everyone, and thats Where they fail. At least darkfall aims to a specific type of players, PVPERS. If it's too hardcore for you, go look for something else. (WOW for example).
Well see you have yourself a dichotomy here.
Lets say that the MMORPG player base is around 15mil people. If you could get all 2% of them to play this game 300,000. That seems like enough to be successful. However there is a problem.
All of those players are griefers and they dont play well together. They like to grief, not be griefed. They like to make peoples lives miserable, but they dont like to be miserable. They need victims. So lets suppose you could get get 30% of the players playing this game to come from other games like EQ to be your victims.
Well griefers in other games can make serious havoc on at game while only representing 2% of the population. Imagine the destruction and misery they will cause when they represent 70% of a games players. LoL no way the carebears would stay in the game. Therefore they would leave, no victims for the griefers so they would leave. Game dies, griefers whine in threads like this asking for another game to release to be a griefest. This game could be added to the list of dieing grief games like SB?
So even if you could get all your griefers to join a game, still they couldnt be happy. So if a game developer wants to actually make money, it would be best to just ban the griefers and let them whine.
Well I agree if you compare todays games to UO, then UO falls short mainly because of graphics, and the contents is a dated. However if UO rereleased with additional content and graphics proportional to any new major release, I think it would be the best hands down. Lets look at where UO still excels even after 10 years. I have to admit I havent played every MMORPG but from what I have heard or had experience in this is where UO is still the best or at least top 3.
I agree with you, it had the right approach to do such thing like a virtual online world, and not just a simple game. But well, it was just the first try and it lacked a lot of other things, also technically it was not as much possible, as it would nowadays.
- Housing - Customization, Storage, Design, Land Plots ....
Not much to add, maybe just that the houses in it self was to static, that become problem a little later, to much houses all over the world. If you can fight over land and with it over houses, you could maybe solve this problem. But how to make it fair and not to easy griefable. I think the approach of Darkfall to this is rather good.- Quick Travel - Rune Books, Recall / Gate scrolls and spells, Mark, and of course Horses and Moongates.
Ok, it was the best quick travel method, the question is just, is this kind of quick travel really useful over time? I think not, because it reduce the size of the world. You traveled just once to far away regions or island, after some time you just teleport, and the world become rather small. Darkfall try to limit teleportation in some way, but make it possible with marking runes and as it was in UO. A good idea, i just hope they are really able to limit teleportation to some extend.- Crafting - Just plain awesome
Ok, nothing to add. UO was the only MMORPG i played i enjoyed crafting, but mostly because of the economy, because your items were really needed.- Economy - Vibrant player economy, used resources, outstanding all around
True, absolutely, but after the introduction of trammel and the safe way to gather resources inflation hit UO and the economy was destroyed over some time. This is also a reason why we need a open system, so it is hard to gather and controll resource spots, so you can fight a meaningful fight over those resources. One of the main aspects, why Darkfall will be so much better than UO was.- Vendors - Player vendors all over and useful
- Item Storage/Space - Packs, Houses, Banks, boats. Tons of storage allowed, and the way items are moved in pack is great, not the square item slot in backpack only allowed 16 items like WoW. In UO you could move stuff around drop it on ground transfer to players and vendors and house quickly and very useful.
Both true, and not really anything to add. Maybe the effect, which had the weight of items and the effect to it to your movement speed. This is because a lot of reasons usefull. Withit horses comes into play to store your stuff and so on, and with the loot idea, you were limited what you could loot and carry and what not. You had to made a decision. By the way, i think it is also required, that you cant destroy items easily, they should be able to salvage back to resources, but just at a forge or similar fixed points.- PVP - Was skill based, pretty much balanced, none of this im higher level so better stuff, or rock paper scissors this class better then this class. Player experience was the most important factor.
Absolutely true, but nevertheless, the difference between the noob and the 7gm was a little bit to high, i think darkfall will also fix this. And nowadays there is a lot more possible than it was in the time of UO. Now we have a lot better fighting and magic system available, but skilled based, too.- Taming - So much to tame, just a very fun concept, also can ride a bunch of these animals
Yeah, i liked it, too. But on the other side it was normally not as much fun to fight against a pet master.. nevertheless taiming especially to ride those animals or just for fun was a really good thing. I hope Darkfall will bring back taming before release, but reduce the ability to fight with your pets.- Treasure Hunting - Another extremely fun profession, people love to tag along on the high level treasure hunts, fun for alot of people
- Fishing - Again another fun profession
Nothing to add.- Boats - Most games dont even bother with it, UO boats were actually somewhat useful.
True, and in darkfall it will be even more usefull, with limited teleportation, and naval combat it could be really glorious.- Item modifications - Huge variety of item mods in the game, you never knew which combo you might actually get, this would add right into the economy, people would pay big money for the right equipment modifications.
- Clothing and Character customization - Every person could be unique, unlike WoW where every single person of a given class looks the same. Some people made an entire game of making clothing and stuff for people.
Both of them are really important, and maybe much more important, that the effect of items was not a game deciding factor, it add something, it was useful, but not a breaking point like in games like WoW, and so on.- Skill based not Level based - This is just the preferred way for many players.
- Rares Items and Collectibles - There were soooooo many awesome collectible items in this game, from singing crystal balls to just plain rocks, dye tubs, many more, people could make stuff out of items like fishtanks in thier house, just soooo many things, this alone some people could spend thier entire UO life just being Rare Item Collectors/Traders.
So true, and the best of it.. those rare items have never effected the fight, those items were just to collect and for some fun things, and a good investion, too.- Just overall flexibility - Basically someone could do all of the above. They were not limited by some class/race/realm where they could only experience 1/10th of the content. If someone wanted to do all of the above they could. Might take a few characters to max all skills but skilling up in UO was quick. Basically the end game was the fun part and the point, not the skilling/leveling.
Absolutely right.There are probably another dozen things I am forgeting off the top of my head.
Its all of the above that made people look back at UO with awe. The game was multifaceted, and far ahead of its time. Think how simple the games now are compared. Most games now only excel in a couple of things, and dont even try to be good in multiple areas.
I really thing Darkfall would be the right game for you. And not everyone will be a griefer in Darkfall, my guess is they will just be a minority as in everygame out there. And darkfall has more than enough to controll them to some extend. But as i described in a lot of posts now, you cant get rid off them completely, you need a open and free system for a lot of things, to be fun. Be it roleplaying, be it the economy, be it the meaningful fight and a lot of other things darkfall offers, but in the other hand it will be more dangerous(and this could be fun, too, or not?) and some griefer will use this maybe to their advantage. But i think it will be much harder for griefers in DF than in a lot of other games out there.
But however, i think we have discussed about this issues more than enough, the best advice i can give you is, just test darkfall and decide by yourself if it is the game for you, or not. And i do really not know what i can say anymore.. really. Everything is said.
Darkfall looks like a game with great potential. No doubt, thats why im interested. I think a few people here confuse my defense of anti griefing to mean that I myself am worried how it will effect me. I am not personally concerned about griefing on me at all actually. I can defend myself damn well, and dont have any problem dealing with griefing until I get to a point where I will kill any griefer that I see. Likely they wont even bother me because thats how griefers are, they dont like risk, and fighting me would be a huge risk on thier part. In addition at the high end of the game I dont pve much so thats not gonna be a problem.
I think a few people have misunderstood. I am not afraid of griefing for me, but for the health of the game. I would like the game to appeal to a broader base, that way this game can afford to do the things UO couldnt. I am not talking an entire revamping of the game into WoW or EQ land. But just a few minor changes to discourage griefing and encourage PVP.
Although, I have to admit, that griefing was one of my main occupation in shadowbane...the hardcore-PvP community HAS to be in the minority. If you believe in the supply and demand aspect of economics, reason dictates that the games being released are a representation of what the mmo community demands.
Lets face it, Darkfall is poorly funded. Hell they changed ownership and developers since they initally announced the game.
I'm all for a hardcore-PvP based game because that is the mainstay of what the fans of DF want... but I also want some sort of meaningful PvE in the game as well. For those of you that have been playing the hardcore-PvP Uo/SB style, it does get repetative after awhile.
Visit My fantasy Blog! http://fantasyglobe.blogspot.com/
Eh? PvP based?
Not really. There's tons of stuff other than PvP. It's just in for the realism feeling. You CAN kill everything and that's as cool as it can get.
If u rp, craft or so on you will not have to pvp ever.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Well considering they have released ZEROOOOO information about the "other" things we can do, I can only assume they're at the SB stage of PvE, which is zero.
What's they've given us so far are some generalities that could mean a number of things. They say resources will be fought over for crafting, this could mean fighting over mines and guild-based crafters only; which is not meaningful PvE. They've mentioned ZERO about normal quests being implemented but have suggested therre are epci quests.
Sure you can kill everything... but that doesn't mean that "everything" will be limited to stand-in-one-place npcs. Whuuppiee do!
And if you really get down to it, Shadowband and UO have proved that RP is very limited in an open pvp aspect. Sure it's there; but don't get your hopes up to spending gobs of time doing the cool stuff you dream of doing with it. (baring an RP area/server).
Like Darkfall said on their website, Sure you dont have to join a guild or PvP... but it will be a VERY hard life for you.
Out of the dev's lips and into our ears.
-Syloc
Visit My fantasy Blog! http://fantasyglobe.blogspot.com/
They said that? If thats what is required, they will live to eat those words. but it will be a VERY hard life for you, which is why we dont expect to operate long because we wont have any subscribers.
I finished the sentence for them.
They said that? If thats what is required, they will live to eat those words. but it will be a VERY hard life for you, which is why we dont expect to operate long because we wont have any subscribers.
I finished the sentence for them.
EVE.
Its called guild wars
Here some quotes from the FAQ and the Link to the FAQ for you to reread it:
Darkfall FAQ
Darkfall can be played any way you want. If you want to get involved in conquest, wars, and ruling kingdoms, you join a clan, or get together with some friends and start your own, but you do not have to.
You are only limited by your imagination in what else you can do, but here are some examples to get you going:
You could be a lone adventurer, hunting for treasure, magical items and fame, or a mercenary selling your services to the highest bidder. You may choose to play a merchant, setting up caravans and shops in different cities, buying high quality hides from Mahirim hunters and selling them for top prices at Human cities. You could hook up with a few friends and be pirates, sailing your galleon around, plundering merchant ships, or choose to play the Dwarven blacksmith, crafting mighty magical weapons and armor, or perhaps a farmer producing rare herbs and spell reagents. The possibilities are limitless.
You can do a lot of things without a clan, but it is true, that you need a clan to build up a empire, but you can without participate in different actions connected with empire building and warfare. You can be the merchant, which trade with them, or the mercenary, which fight for them.. or whatever you want.
And they had released zero information about other things to do? Damn.. there are a lot of information around about other actions beside of pvp. Look again at the Darkfall site and read the FAQ, read the IGN Previews, read a lot of IRC chats with the dev and all information around.. and you will find a lot of things.Make a Games equal then Other......why play the new game?
or
Make a FUll loot PVP Different the other tons of Stupid MMORPG for kids....I buy your game because are different
and all of players that like full PVP system will do the same.
do you understand?
You peeps need to go to darkfallonline.com and read up on the game via the site info and forums... Also i hear darkfallinfo.com is a good site, because so many people say we have no info about this or that when in truth we know so much... Just read up before you start throwing bogus info out there
>mainly referring to Sylocs post on this thread but it applies to a much larger audience<
EVE. EVE. EVE. EVE. That's right, EVE. Take EVE make it into a fantasy game and you have the best PvP system.
1. Players must be able to lose everything.
2. Players must be able to live in peace when they cannot compete in PvP. This is empire space in EVE.
3. The rest just comes with these two basic steps.
4. Although this is fairly obvious to me its not to other so I will elaborate. The area designated to #2 must not be as good as the area designated to #1. There must be a reason for people to leave #2, the rewards. Risk vs Reward. That is what a PvP game must be about. The ability to have everything with the ability to lose everything.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Since this has turned into a griefing debate, we need to define terms. I see some people talking at cross purposes. Greifing is not PvP. PvP is simply players fighting other players. To say griefing is PvP is like saying stealing is a bunsiess transaction. Sure.. money changes hands, but that's not the point.
Example of griefing (BAD PvP): In Shadowbane, for example, you don't get anything (gold, items or experience) from killing anyone of a substantially lower level than you. There is NO BENEFIT other than the joy of doing it. Go far enough down in victim level and a group of ten (max # for a group) have no chance of defeating you and little chance of escape. It's not a challenge for you and it doesn't teach the newbie anything he doesn't already know (namely that you can kill him anytime you like) The game engine does not reward or penalize this behavior. You can hang out outside a town and kill newbies all day, then walk right in and buy a few paltry things with the change you've accumulated. The guards won't stop you and you can turn right around and do the same thing tomorrow. If someone gets together a posse to hunt you down, you might have to move or log until they forget. Then you can go right back to it, because the other players aren't there to be the police. They're there to play the game. If there was an NPC in the game who did the same thing, you better believe the players would be breaking down the devs doors to get them to remove it. Why? Because it's unfair, impossible to avoid and doesn't add anything to the game except the chance to die a quick death anywhere at any time.
I know that's an extreme case, but I've met players who do pretty much exactly that. Why? Just because. But more importantly, How can you defend people who do do that? The response I usually get is "Well that's what this game is all about." Which is total BS. It's simply not enough to not reward such behavior. You have to penalize it, and you have to penalize it with the game system. The info on Darlfall says they're going to deal with it. Don't know exactly how effective it's going to be, but I do know that a day or two after the game launches, a whole bunch of griefers will respond "The game will be ruined if you don't lift those restrictions." If the devs capitulate, then the game will be ruined. If they don't, then they'll loose some players and maybe get some bad press, but it will be a much better game in the long run.
Brainy's replies have been the most thought provoking to be honest, though at times it has seemed like he hasn't listened to what other people have said
Anyway, after everything I've read the things that sound great (and I really hope make the game a success) are the open PVP coupled with racial enmities and the alignment system. The game does state all this on the official webby, so there shouldn't be any confusion as to what players are getting themselves into.
Killing a racial enemy actually gains an alignment bonus. Killing your own race or racial friend does the opposite. An Ork griefer who kills an Elf near Elven noobyville is a hero, and why shouldn't he be ? He's just braved being KOS to every single Elf in the whole area, not to mention their friends the Humans and Dwarfs whether PC or NPC as he's KOS anyway. If he tried the same thing killing noobs outside the Ork capital then he's just made himself KOS to his own people.... not many places left to run to now apart from the Mahirim towns. Still, near Elfville he now probably has a whole town after him, and if they catch him, he's going to lose EVERYTHING !
Nice unique set of armour... ? Bye.
Uber rare weapon... ? Bye.
Respawn in a loincloth and a wooden spoon... ? Hello.
A few people have also mentioned EVE, and right now I think that's the best comparison that can be made to the kind of game I hope DF will be. EVE is a PVP game, but there are safe areas (though not 100% safe). Pirates, killers & griefers are all valid professions but they also have consequences and their own version of alignment. EVE has gone from strength to strength because it has balanced risk vs reward and I hope DF does the same.
What I like the sound of most though is that in DF you have no name tag or glowing neon bar above your head to give you away, so tactics, ambushes, full on friendly fire (which will cause havoc in blobs), the element of surprise and use of your environment will mean more than being a beefcake with uber fittings trying to take on an army.
It sounds exciting. Cause and effect. Risk vs reward - I can't wait