Originally posted by Novalith In Eve, that wont happen. I wont ever catch the people playing since day one, because even they dont have every skill in the game maxed out (I think I read somewhere that the time it would take to do such a thing is longer the game has been released for or some such, but I could be wrong), So my next best hope is to be just as good at whatever it is that I want to do as someone who has played from the begining. What he is saying is the length of time it would take him to reach that point is not worth his time. Originally posted by RollinDutch
Originally posted by Thinman
Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if someone will read into my posts what they want to. I know that I don't know everything.
I don't care that you didn't like EVE. That's fine. I don't care that you didn't like the combat, the skill system, really anything to be honest. That's fine too. People have different tastes.
Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.
Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.
This was primarily directed at RollinDutch, but I feel contains valid points for everyone.
You said that "thinking the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means you sucked at Eve".
Actually, that is EXACTLY what makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets. Name anything that a person who has been playing for 1 week can do better then someone who has had say...9 months to play. Especially if the 9 month vet developed their character correctly.
Please read my post in the 'skills question' thread. It should enlighten you as to exactly why you are woefully wrong and incorrect.
Sure, if a 3 month old character hops in his T1 frigate and attacks a battleship alone he's going to die (more than likely) but if that 3 month old character hops in his web/scram fitted battlecruiser and catches a vet in an assault frig or interceptor or even, possibly, a HAC or Battleship? He could very well beat that player through superior tactics and knowing when/where to attack.
Yes: The vet will have more options available to them but the fact of the matter is that newer players kill veteran players ALL...THE....TIME
Your thoughts are, quite simply, the most common misconception about how things work in EVE. The number of skillpoints a player have only means they have more OPTIONS. You can't use every option at once, no ship will let you. You can't even use HALF of your options at once (as a vet) because no one ship will let you. A VET has to pick ONE ship to be in at any given time. That ship will limit their areas of opportunity. If a vet is flitting about in a hauler and a 2 week old character in a T1 cruiser catches them in 0.0 guess what... that hauler is more than likely going to go kersplat.
A Vet flitting about in a cruiser or battlecruiser is only marginally better than a 3 month old player flitting about in a cruiser or battlecruiser. Because there's a finite number of skills which really pertain to those ships and a 3 month old char can be fairly competent in all of those areas (granted the Vet might have a 2-5% edge in some skills) but if the new player chose their training path correctly and is flying a ship they are somewhat specialized in they are JUST as effective as a Vet is/would be in that same ship class (and in many cases better).
To fly command ships and have the leadership skills to REALLY make them shine takes roughly 7-8 months of training. IF that is ALL you trained for. If you trained SPECIFICALLY for that ship class you can "max out" and be just as good as anyone else at flying that ship in just 7-8 months time. If you forego the leadership skills (which only help in a gang) you can do it in 6 or 7 months.
So as you can see you are 100% wrong. It *is* possible for a new player to "catch up" if they chose to target an'end result'
Oh: And along the way that new player will have also mastered Cruisers, HAC's and Battlecruisers. So they'll have FOUR ship types to chose from which they will be able to match, skill for skill, with any vet in the game.
(Not to mention the fact that a Command ship is one of the best ships to fly in the game).
So yeah, it CAN be done.
EVE is about roles. A new player can become 98% proficient in any given role in the game fairly quickly. All a vet has is access to more roles. But you can still only fill one role at a time.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if someone will read into my posts what they want to. I know that I don't know everything.
I don't care that you didn't like EVE. That's fine. I don't care that you didn't like the combat, the skill system, really anything to be honest. That's fine too. People have different tastes.
Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.
Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.
This was primarily directed at RollinDutch, but I feel contains valid points for everyone.
What the OP said was that the game in its current state was not possible for HIM to get into. He wanted to know if others felt the same way. Before you posted that mini-tirade as I call it, someone else said almost the same thing but in a much more tactful way. Bottom line is you dont feel the same way he does. Thats fine, move on.
The way the system is now, if I started today, all things being equal,I could never catch a player who started 9 months ago. They would always be 9 months (roughly) ahead of me and thats that.
While it is true that top tier players will put the smack down on the so called "n00bs" in almost every case, the difference is the amount of time it takes said new player to be on the same level as the older players. Most games have some sort of achievable "end state". The point at which your character stops developing and the whole purpose of the game is to play with friends, kill the tough mobs and get the coolest loot.
Take Guild Wars for example. Once you hit level 20 and have every skill in the game, there is nothing else for your character to achieve development wise. My necromancer has every necro skill in the game, is level 20, and the only other possible milestone is for her to get every skill in the game for the other 9 classes as well. If you were to start today with the goal of getting every necro skill in the game as I have, you could achieve it in less then 6 months. Whats even more, is that if you just want to compete on the same level as me, you dont even NEED every necro skill. Just the ones for the builds that I use which is significantly less. That goal is achievable in about 3 months of fairly dedicated play. Longer obviously if you cannot play as much.
In Eve, that wont happen. I wont ever catch the people playing since day one, because even they dont have every skill in the game maxed out (I think I read somewhere that the time it would take to do such a thing is longer the game has been released for or some such, but I could be wrong), So my next best hope is to be just as good at whatever it is that I want to do as someone who has played from the begining. What he is saying is the length of time it would take him to reach that point is not worth his time.
He isnt trying to speak for everyone, he is only trying to find out if others feel the same. No need to resort to name calling to try to get your point across.
You said that "thinking the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means you sucked at Eve".
Actually, that is EXACTLY what makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets. Name anything that a person who has been playing for 1 week can do better then someone who has had say...9 months to play. Especially if the 9 month vet developed their character correctly.
I will say that any skill system makes any game this way. Level 20 is alyways better then level 1. Period. In order for a game to be "fair" across the board all rewards for playing would have to have nothing to do with your character or his equipment getting better. No MMORPG out there is like this (in my experience). Eve does things in such a way that I feel it might be harder them most for a new player, but the fact that life as a new player is difficult is true in every game.
I played eve for 3-4 months. I also quit, not because of the skill system, but because of an exploit that made griefing not only possible, but easy. I don't play games to be griefed. I have played GW from day 1. I have never been griefed. For that it earns my undying love.
You are misunderstanding the skill system in EVE. Within each skill tree there are finite branches that you can persue, such as the amarr ship line. Basically this includes the frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship skills. It also includes the energy weapon skills and all the laser specializations as well. There are also more generic skills but they apply to all trees and will generally be trained by everyone so I'm just including skills that ONLY benefit amarr ships.
Anyways once you max out any branch of the amarr tree, whether it be frigates, destroyers or battleships, you have reached the exact same level as a 3 year vet IN THAT SHIP. You can fit the same guns and do the same damage with the same modules.
Generally if you focus on a path it won't take that long to complete, 3 months for some of the higher branches, which you will generally need to get the isk to buy the appropriate ship anyways.
As for the OP wanting a fresh server put up, it wouldn't matter. You would still fall behind because your attitude is what is holding you back. If they did open a new server the vets would just start a new character and in a month would be far ahead of you again and you'd be whining.
WoW has spoiled many gamers in that due to its huge and ever growing population (and multi-server architecture) they have been opening brand new "worlds" on a regular basis since Day 1. This has proven to be wildly successful. These days 50% of a new servers population can be players who have quit playing their characters on an older server and re-rolled on the new server for a fresh start.
In many cases they do this so they can be as competitive as anyone else... by all re-starting at the same place. Many older mmo's suffer from new players fearing they won't be competitive (DAOC does) so they don't even give the game a try.
I realize, many folks here say this isn't so...that you can be competitive in less time and that skills aren't that big of a deal... but as you can tell, many folks don't believe that....and some are people who've actually played the game.
No point to tell them they "suck" or lack talent, maybe they do....but they are just stating that they'd like a chance to start in a fresh new world.... and they have no experience with Eve's single world model....they don't understand that it would undermine something that appears to make EvE unique among MMO's...and that most EvE players really enjoy.
I can't see EvE making this sort of move....it would be foolish... they have a feature that is beloved by their community...they can't afford to throw it away hoping to lure other people to their game.. (ie... DAOC and TOA).
Here's an idea..instead of bashing people over their incorrect perceptions of EvE...how about you offer to show them how its done...and done right?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
i quit eve and my brother took over my character (but he also had one of his own) so even though I could rejoin EVE with 47 million skill points I don't really want to cause I have no clue what anything does past enyo
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
To Minsk and Elnator (hope I spelled those right).
I understand the system very well, I know there is a finite amount of stuff you can do at any one time and that a vet has more options but is not necessarily Better. My problem is the length of time it takes to get those options. I don't do the same thing in any MMO for very long. I like to try out different areas of the game, and most of all, I like to be able to do EVERYTHING. I know that sounds a bit silly but if I pay for a game I want to be able to experience everything it has to offer and I want to be able to do it an a relativly short amount of time. Right now there is no where in GW my necro cannot go. There are no areas to which I will never have access. I dont have to join a guild to experience PVP as a group (not that you have to join a corp to do so in Eve, I am just clearing up a semi-common misconception). Nothing is off limits. That is my favorite thing about GW.
In Eve there a few things that if I chose not to join a corp I would not be able to do. Same with WOW (also why I quit that, and I gave it the same 3-4 months that I gave Eve).
Anywho, I think we may be getting off topic a bit. I am glad you guys enjoy Eve like I enjoy GW. One of the best things (and sometimes worse) about Eve was the community. It did not seem to have rampant annoying people in it like some MMO's. Heck, even the guy who griefed me offered to buy me another ship when I told him I was done with Eve.
I forgot in my previous post to mention that I do not agree that starting a new server would really fix anything. If they did and if the griefing element was removed, I might come back, but I know in the long run it would solve nothing to make a new server. The only reason I posted was because I thought people were misunderstanding the OP and I wanted to shed some light on it.
To Minsk and Elnator (hope I spelled those right). I understand the system very well, I know there is a finite amount of stuff you can do at any one time and that a vet has more options but is not necessarily Better. My problem is the length of time it takes to get those options. I don't do the same thing in any MMO for very long. I like to try out different areas of the game, and most of all, I like to be able to do EVERYTHING. I know that sounds a bit silly but if I pay for a game I want to be able to experience everything it has to offer and I want to be able to do it an a relativly short amount of time. Right now there is no where in GW my necro cannot go. There are no areas to which I will never have access. I dont have to join a guild to experience PVP as a group (not that you have to join a corp to do so in Eve, I am just clearing up a semi-common misconception). Nothing is off limits. That is my favorite thing about GW. In Eve there a few things that if I chose not to join a corp I would not be able to do. Same with WOW (also why I quit that, and I gave it the same 3-4 months that I gave Eve). Anywho, I think we may be getting off topic a bit. I am glad you guys enjoy Eve like I enjoy GW. One of the best things (and sometimes worse) about Eve was the community. It did not seem to have rampant annoying people in it like some MMO's. Heck, even the guy who griefed me offered to buy me another ship when I told him I was done with Eve. I forgot in my previous post to mention that I do not agree that starting a new server would really fix anything. If they did and if the griefing element was removed, I might come back, but I know in the long run it would solve nothing to make a new server. The only reason I posted was because I thought people were misunderstanding the OP and I wanted to shed some light on it. Happy gaming!
Well, actually i tried a lot, not everything but really a lot, it took me some time,
but you gain much on flexibility and versatility (its great to run every t1 ship up to cruiser with best ship boni possible)
To the point of doing stuff solo, you can access everything in EVE solo as well,
but if it does help you, is another questions.
I know people living alone in 0.0, i know people running complexes (up to 8/10) alone, i know people running POS alone, so it depends more on what you want and how far you want to go for it.
I love it how ppl keep saying that when you start dont matter in Eve.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
I love it how ppl keep saying that when you start dont matter in Eve.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
And because you think that, you suck at EVE.
Play EVE, where you can suck less then this guy with 80m SP. (Actually he's probably lying, but I'll use him to prove my point)
I love it how ppl keep saying that when you start dont matter in Eve.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
I call BS.
What's your character's name?
Because anyone who has been in EVE since Day 1 knows darn well you don't have to be a Vet to beat a Vet.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
I love it how ppl keep saying that when you start dont matter in Eve.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
I call BS.
What's your character's name?
Because anyone who has been in EVE since Day 1 knows darn well you don't have to be a Vet to beat a Vet. They also know not to call skills talents and they know when learning (and then advanced learning) skills were seeded (wasn't day 1).
Still, he's a good example - if he really did have the skill points he said he did, he'd suck with them and you could kick his ass in a month at whatever he tries (and fails horribly) at doing.
I love it how ppl keep saying that when you start dont matter in Eve.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
It is true. It really does matter. I also cant compete with a 3yo character in pvp directly.
And I also dont want to do so. I want to compete with him indirectly: through a community (gang, corp, alliance). A younger player has to find his place in the community. Nobody requests a 1 month old to fly BS into a fleet battle (however some may try - those days I also tried with some very low efficency ). Like noone asks a 1 year old to demolish POSes with dreads.
There are the dedicated roles for every single character in eve. If you are new, get in a frig
and tacle. You willl find it fun to kill a 2+yo player, as much as your mates in larger ships. They would fail without the help of yours, for sure...
And when I go out mining, I feel rather weak with my rokh (lol), when the 5-6month old miners have their hulks around.
The main porblem with the OP is, that he tried to solo for 4 months. Eve is rather a community game than a solo one. Only the best can do it alone (the best in brain, I mean). I dont know what he really has done, but at the age of 2 months I had been flying a battleship already...
I've been playing for about six months, and I'm happy with the current shard. Can I compete on equal footing either in combat or in finances with players who've been around for a year or more? That depends entirely on the specifics. I can't pilot a freighter, so I'm not going to be as good in trade as someone who went that direction; I can't pilot a Hulk, so I'm not going to be as capable when it comes to mining as someone who went that direction; I can't pilot a HAC, I can't pilot a covert ops, I can't pilot a recon ship, and I can't pilot an interdictor. I can pilot a Dominix and send out tech 2 heavy drones, however; I can drain anything within 25km of me dry with that Dominix; I can put eight tech 2 mining beams on a Hyperion and do a fair job of digging up Jaspet or what have you in corp mining operations; I can fly an Iteron IV which, while not as good as an Iteron V, is still more than enough for most corporate hauling operations.
At six months in, I may not be able to go toe to toe in every aspect of the game with veterans, but I'm certainly a benefit to my corporation in most aspects of the game, and that's what it's all about. For that matter, there are people who've been flying for three weeks who are valuable to my corporation. Unless you're planning on a solo career (eschewing corporations altogether), there's absolutely no reason you can't be of significant value to your corp mates and yourself from the very beginning. I felt I was helpful to my corporation (EVE University) from day one; flying a Navitas with tech 1 gear on a ninja mining operation doesn't take much of an investment at all, nor does flying a tech 1-outfitted Catalyst in a zergfleet operation. Take a look at the EVE University killboard. If you throw enough frigates and destroyers at HACs and Recon ships, you'll win every time, and you'll do it with minimal casualties.
This isn't a game about whether my "turret" is bigger than yours unless you choose to play it that way. Even if you do choose to play it that way, skill points are only part of the equation. If you're totally reliant on those skill points to win the day for you, you're going to be spending a fortune on clones and insurance.
Most MMOs are designed poorly and are best played on constantly fresh servers. People whine about the economy on mature servers and keep thinking fresh servers will be better. Or use any number of reasons to complain.
MMOs need to stop screwing around with tiered equipment that is only used by newbies and work on better, sustainable economies. Eve Online, for example, has a lot of useless components, many which are obsoleted by other components, and an all-or-nothing combat loss system. If components took damage and could be destroyed, a couple pilots in disposable ships could knock out a couple of ultra-expensive components on a veteran's ship and cause some decent damage, for example.
Then it has other features like fire-and-forget research and manufacturing which take no effort (only investment), and you get a stale economy (except for the lucky Tier 2 BPO holders), plus a boring mining system that leads to macro-miners...
Players need to be competitive from the start. Be it in combat, research, trading, whatever. But games continue to insist on starting us off killing bunny rabbits with sharp pointy sticks.
I love it how ppl keep saying that when you start dont matter in Eve.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
I could give you a run for your money with a 9 month alt, 1v1 or small gang, i'm sure. Simply because after 9 months, I could have trained for one ship and maxed out nearly all the skills that affect it.
That 58,000,000 number or w/e it is at now, it's not like it makes your guns any better once you already have all your gunnery skills at level 5. And maxing out skills for one ship really does not take that long.
So in PvP, i'd never, ever judge the PvP ability of a character on when they started. It doesn't matter. Year old characters, if they focused their training, can be essentially equal in every aspect to a 3 and a half year veteran once they're both out in space.
Comments
If you spend a little time reading here and at eve-online you will see that that is nothing more than a misconception.
Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.
Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.
This was primarily directed at RollinDutch, but I feel contains valid points for everyone.
You said that "thinking the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means you sucked at Eve".
Actually, that is EXACTLY what makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets. Name anything that a person who has been playing for 1 week can do better then someone who has had say...9 months to play. Especially if the 9 month vet developed their character correctly.
Please read my post in the 'skills question' thread. It should enlighten you as to exactly why you are woefully wrong and incorrect.
Sure, if a 3 month old character hops in his T1 frigate and attacks a battleship alone he's going to die (more than likely) but if that 3 month old character hops in his web/scram fitted battlecruiser and catches a vet in an assault frig or interceptor or even, possibly, a HAC or Battleship? He could very well beat that player through superior tactics and knowing when/where to attack.
Yes: The vet will have more options available to them but the fact of the matter is that newer players kill veteran players ALL...THE....TIME
Your thoughts are, quite simply, the most common misconception about how things work in EVE. The number of skillpoints a player have only means they have more OPTIONS. You can't use every option at once, no ship will let you. You can't even use HALF of your options at once (as a vet) because no one ship will let you. A VET has to pick ONE ship to be in at any given time. That ship will limit their areas of opportunity. If a vet is flitting about in a hauler and a 2 week old character in a T1 cruiser catches them in 0.0 guess what... that hauler is more than likely going to go kersplat.
A Vet flitting about in a cruiser or battlecruiser is only marginally better than a 3 month old player flitting about in a cruiser or battlecruiser. Because there's a finite number of skills which really pertain to those ships and a 3 month old char can be fairly competent in all of those areas (granted the Vet might have a 2-5% edge in some skills) but if the new player chose their training path correctly and is flying a ship they are somewhat specialized in they are JUST as effective as a Vet is/would be in that same ship class (and in many cases better).
To fly command ships and have the leadership skills to REALLY make them shine takes roughly 7-8 months of training. IF that is ALL you trained for. If you trained SPECIFICALLY for that ship class you can "max out" and be just as good as anyone else at flying that ship in just 7-8 months time. If you forego the leadership skills (which only help in a gang) you can do it in 6 or 7 months.
So as you can see you are 100% wrong. It *is* possible for a new player to "catch up" if they chose to target an'end result'
Oh: And along the way that new player will have also mastered Cruisers, HAC's and Battlecruisers. So they'll have FOUR ship types to chose from which they will be able to match, skill for skill, with any vet in the game.
(Not to mention the fact that a Command ship is one of the best ships to fly in the game).
So yeah, it CAN be done.
EVE is about roles. A new player can become 98% proficient in any given role in the game fairly quickly. All a vet has is access to more roles. But you can still only fill one role at a time.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Thinking that the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means that you sucked at EVE.
Demanding that the game be completely changed to suit you, in spite of the costs, because of the fact that you sucked at EVE makes you pathetic. Contemptible. Immature. Childish. I'd go on, but I'd have to get a thesaurus. I'm sure you get the point.
This was primarily directed at RollinDutch, but I feel contains valid points for everyone.
What the OP said was that the game in its current state was not possible for HIM to get into. He wanted to know if others felt the same way. Before you posted that mini-tirade as I call it, someone else said almost the same thing but in a much more tactful way. Bottom line is you dont feel the same way he does. Thats fine, move on.
The way the system is now, if I started today, all things being equal, I could never catch a player who started 9 months ago. They would always be 9 months (roughly) ahead of me and thats that.
While it is true that top tier players will put the smack down on the so called "n00bs" in almost every case, the difference is the amount of time it takes said new player to be on the same level as the older players. Most games have some sort of achievable "end state". The point at which your character stops developing and the whole purpose of the game is to play with friends, kill the tough mobs and get the coolest loot.
Take Guild Wars for example. Once you hit level 20 and have every skill in the game, there is nothing else for your character to achieve development wise. My necromancer has every necro skill in the game, is level 20, and the only other possible milestone is for her to get every skill in the game for the other 9 classes as well. If you were to start today with the goal of getting every necro skill in the game as I have, you could achieve it in less then 6 months. Whats even more, is that if you just want to compete on the same level as me, you dont even NEED every necro skill. Just the ones for the builds that I use which is significantly less. That goal is achievable in about 3 months of fairly dedicated play. Longer obviously if you cannot play as much.
In Eve, that wont happen. I wont ever catch the people playing since day one, because even they dont have every skill in the game maxed out (I think I read somewhere that the time it would take to do such a thing is longer the game has been released for or some such, but I could be wrong), So my next best hope is to be just as good at whatever it is that I want to do as someone who has played from the begining. What he is saying is the length of time it would take him to reach that point is not worth his time.
He isnt trying to speak for everyone, he is only trying to find out if others feel the same. No need to resort to name calling to try to get your point across.
You said that "thinking the skill system makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets means you sucked at Eve".
Actually, that is EXACTLY what makes it impossible for new players to compete with vets. Name anything that a person who has been playing for 1 week can do better then someone who has had say...9 months to play. Especially if the 9 month vet developed their character correctly.
I will say that any skill system makes any game this way. Level 20 is alyways better then level 1. Period. In order for a game to be "fair" across the board all rewards for playing would have to have nothing to do with your character or his equipment getting better. No MMORPG out there is like this (in my experience). Eve does things in such a way that I feel it might be harder them most for a new player, but the fact that life as a new player is difficult is true in every game.
I played eve for 3-4 months. I also quit, not because of the skill system, but because of an exploit that made griefing not only possible, but easy. I don't play games to be griefed. I have played GW from day 1. I have never been griefed. For that it earns my undying love.
You are misunderstanding the skill system in EVE. Within each skill tree there are finite branches that you can persue, such as the amarr ship line. Basically this includes the frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship skills. It also includes the energy weapon skills and all the laser specializations as well. There are also more generic skills but they apply to all trees and will generally be trained by everyone so I'm just including skills that ONLY benefit amarr ships.Anyways once you max out any branch of the amarr tree, whether it be frigates, destroyers or battleships, you have reached the exact same level as a 3 year vet IN THAT SHIP. You can fit the same guns and do the same damage with the same modules.
Generally if you focus on a path it won't take that long to complete, 3 months for some of the higher branches, which you will generally need to get the isk to buy the appropriate ship anyways.
As for the OP wanting a fresh server put up, it wouldn't matter. You would still fall behind because your attitude is what is holding you back. If they did open a new server the vets would just start a new character and in a month would be far ahead of you again and you'd be whining.
WoW has spoiled many gamers in that due to its huge and ever growing population (and multi-server architecture) they have been opening brand new "worlds" on a regular basis since Day 1. This has proven to be wildly successful. These days 50% of a new servers population can be players who have quit playing their characters on an older server and re-rolled on the new server for a fresh start.
In many cases they do this so they can be as competitive as anyone else... by all re-starting at the same place. Many older mmo's suffer from new players fearing they won't be competitive (DAOC does) so they don't even give the game a try.
I realize, many folks here say this isn't so...that you can be competitive in less time and that skills aren't that big of a deal... but as you can tell, many folks don't believe that....and some are people who've actually played the game.
No point to tell them they "suck" or lack talent, maybe they do....but they are just stating that they'd like a chance to start in a fresh new world.... and they have no experience with Eve's single world model....they don't understand that it would undermine something that appears to make EvE unique among MMO's...and that most EvE players really enjoy.
I can't see EvE making this sort of move....it would be foolish... they have a feature that is beloved by their community...they can't afford to throw it away hoping to lure other people to their game.. (ie... DAOC and TOA).
Here's an idea..instead of bashing people over their incorrect perceptions of EvE...how about you offer to show them how its done...and done right?
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
_______________________________________________________________________
Looking forward (cautiously) to: Age of Conan, Dark Solstice, Armada Online.
Will soon try: Guild Wars
Overall: Amazed and bewhildered at the current sad state of the artform of gaming.
To Minsk and Elnator (hope I spelled those right).
I understand the system very well, I know there is a finite amount of stuff you can do at any one time and that a vet has more options but is not necessarily Better. My problem is the length of time it takes to get those options. I don't do the same thing in any MMO for very long. I like to try out different areas of the game, and most of all, I like to be able to do EVERYTHING. I know that sounds a bit silly but if I pay for a game I want to be able to experience everything it has to offer and I want to be able to do it an a relativly short amount of time. Right now there is no where in GW my necro cannot go. There are no areas to which I will never have access. I dont have to join a guild to experience PVP as a group (not that you have to join a corp to do so in Eve, I am just clearing up a semi-common misconception). Nothing is off limits. That is my favorite thing about GW.
In Eve there a few things that if I chose not to join a corp I would not be able to do. Same with WOW (also why I quit that, and I gave it the same 3-4 months that I gave Eve).
Anywho, I think we may be getting off topic a bit. I am glad you guys enjoy Eve like I enjoy GW. One of the best things (and sometimes worse) about Eve was the community. It did not seem to have rampant annoying people in it like some MMO's. Heck, even the guy who griefed me offered to buy me another ship when I told him I was done with Eve.
I forgot in my previous post to mention that I do not agree that starting a new server would really fix anything. If they did and if the griefing element was removed, I might come back, but I know in the long run it would solve nothing to make a new server. The only reason I posted was because I thought people were misunderstanding the OP and I wanted to shed some light on it.
Happy gaming!
If you don't like the game, don't play it.
but you gain much on flexibility and versatility (its great to run every t1 ship up to cruiser with best ship boni possible)
To the point of doing stuff solo, you can access everything in EVE solo as well,
but if it does help you, is another questions.
I know people living alone in 0.0, i know people running complexes (up to 8/10) alone, i know people running POS alone, so it depends more on what you want and how far you want to go for it.
It does, nothing more to it. I was a day1 starter myself, got all the increased learning talents first and so on. Had the top 5 skill points from there on.
I know it matters when you start. So please skip saying it dont.
You can tho bring up other parts where the points have "less" value and so on. but dont say starting time dont matter.
Play EVE, where you can suck less then this guy with 80m SP. (Actually he's probably lying, but I'll use him to prove my point)
What's your character's name?
Because anyone who has been in EVE since Day 1 knows darn well you don't have to be a Vet to beat a Vet.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
What's your character's name?
Because anyone who has been in EVE since Day 1 knows darn well you don't have to be a Vet to beat a Vet. They also know not to call skills talents and they know when learning (and then advanced learning) skills were seeded (wasn't day 1).
Still, he's a good example - if he really did have the skill points he said he did, he'd suck with them and you could kick his ass in a month at whatever he tries (and fails horribly) at doing.
And I also dont want to do so. I want to compete with him indirectly: through a community (gang, corp, alliance). A younger player has to find his place in the community. Nobody requests a 1 month old to fly BS into a fleet battle (however some may try - those days I also tried with some very low efficency
There are the dedicated roles for every single character in eve. If you are new, get in a frig
and tacle. You willl find it fun to kill a 2+yo player, as much as your mates in larger ships. They would fail without the help of yours, for sure...
And when I go out mining, I feel rather weak with my rokh (lol), when the 5-6month old miners have their hulks around.
The main porblem with the OP is, that he tried to solo for 4 months. Eve is rather a community game than a solo one. Only the best can do it alone (the best in brain, I mean). I dont know what he really has done, but at the age of 2 months I had been flying a battleship already...
At six months in, I may not be able to go toe to toe in every aspect of the game with veterans, but I'm certainly a benefit to my corporation in most aspects of the game, and that's what it's all about. For that matter, there are people who've been flying for three weeks who are valuable to my corporation. Unless you're planning on a solo career (eschewing corporations altogether), there's absolutely no reason you can't be of significant value to your corp mates and yourself from the very beginning. I felt I was helpful to my corporation (EVE University) from day one; flying a Navitas with tech 1 gear on a ninja mining operation doesn't take much of an investment at all, nor does flying a tech 1-outfitted Catalyst in a zergfleet operation. Take a look at the EVE University killboard. If you throw enough frigates and destroyers at HACs and Recon ships, you'll win every time, and you'll do it with minimal casualties.
This isn't a game about whether my "turret" is bigger than yours unless you choose to play it that way. Even if you do choose to play it that way, skill points are only part of the equation. If you're totally reliant on those skill points to win the day for you, you're going to be spending a fortune on clones and insurance.
MMOs need to stop screwing around with tiered equipment that is only used by newbies and work on better, sustainable economies. Eve Online, for example, has a lot of useless components, many which are obsoleted by other components, and an all-or-nothing combat loss system. If components took damage and could be destroyed, a couple pilots in disposable ships could knock out a couple of ultra-expensive components on a veteran's ship and cause some decent damage, for example.
Then it has other features like fire-and-forget research and manufacturing which take no effort (only investment), and you get a stale economy (except for the lucky Tier 2 BPO holders), plus a boring mining system that leads to macro-miners...
Players need to be competitive from the start. Be it in combat, research, trading, whatever. But games continue to insist on starting us off killing bunny rabbits with sharp pointy sticks.
That 58,000,000 number or w/e it is at now, it's not like it makes your guns any better once you already have all your gunnery skills at level 5. And maxing out skills for one ship really does not take that long.
So in PvP, i'd never, ever judge the PvP ability of a character on when they started. It doesn't matter. Year old characters, if they focused their training, can be essentially equal in every aspect to a 3 and a half year veteran once they're both out in space.