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Does anyone else think MMO's need a new outlook?
gigomeister
Member Posts: 32
ok first and foremost this is my first post here. I'm just trying to see what others that play this genre think about my questions.
I've played a couple of different MMO's (WOW, AO, and more recently all 3 GW's campaigns). I can see how they are all different. And I can see how they are the same as well. There are things I like in all of them. I love the seamless world that World of Warcraft brings; A place where you can quest and actually meet someone along the way. It makes you feel as if you are in this alternate kind of reality. The addition of weather patterns made it even more enthralling. I love how in Guild Wars in many situations you must understand how to work as a team to accomplish goals and move strategically or tactically (esp. in pvp), and the graphics in the game leave you in awe. And I love the seemingly endless amounts of items in Anarchy Online, I remember going to the "merchants" and thought "wow there is so much stuff to buy!"
Yet, I must not undermine the things that I dont like in these MMO's I have played. In World of Warcraft I hate the fact that pretty much everything I do is related to leveling. I can't particpate in certain quests, because I'm not the right level. A certain creature keeps resisting my spells or attacks, because I'm not the right level. If I go into a pvp arena at a certain level, I am at a considerable disadvantage. I don't like the fact that everything I do seems to be based on how much time I spent doing what usually is that same thing over and over again (I'll elaborate on this later).
In Guild wars, I don't like that the seamless world is pretty much non-existant. Everything you do is in a instance form. Although this may solve the headache of respawn in takes away from what I believe to be one of the most important aspects of "roleplaying". You'll find that people in Guild wars are so much more competitive (maybe even aggressive) than in World of Warcraft. I've actually had people give me gold for free in World of Warcraft just because of their generosity (I never even asked!). But in Guild wars people won't even give you 1 copper (which is like a penny). I'm not saying that people should just be giving random people in-game money for nothing. I'm just comparing my experiences.
And Finally Anarchy Online....well where do I start. The Graphics are way under par, half the time I didn't know what the hell I was doing let alone why I was doing it. And why the hell is there no level cap!?! I remember I was level 16 in about the 2nd day of playing and I was checking out this cool looking Wolf-like character. I saw his level and thought, "LEVEL 3422!, where is this guys life?" For a game that has such excessive levelers and so many items you would think that something really would catch your eye (oh let me say that I did like their emotes, esp the /moon one 
, oh and I just recently figured out that the level cap is now 230 w/ expansions...still excessive to me)
But one of the things I think they all lack is a new way of doing the basic thing in all MMo's. Questing. I'm tired of having quests that say go kill 12 young stanglethorn tigers, turn in the quest, "now go kill 12 elder stranglethorn tigers". 
Yeah....that's not fun.
Why can't a quest be exactly what is sounds like, a kind of personal journey that one takes to achieve great reward(s). Instead of, "here's some task I'm too lazy to do, so here I'll give it to you. " Also, I have never and don't think I will ever be a fan of "farming and grinding". Now I know that "farming" was probably not something that the gamemakers intended on people doing, its probably more of a gamers way of tediously getting what s/he set out to get as a "must have", but it is extremely boring and grinding I think is something that gamemakers can try to minimize because it is definitely one the low-points in the genre. I want to play games for fun, not learn new ways to waste time doing redundant tasks.
I guess, the point Im trying to make, esp. in that last paragraph, is that there should be new ways of playing MMO's. I'm tired of dealing with skill set icons. Why can't there be a new kind of combat system? Why can't there be a real-time combat system as intuitive as a fighting game and as complex as a tactical game? I mean don't many of us hardcore pc gamers have PC gamepads? Why is the structure of questing so much the same between many MMO's? Can't we have quests that seem like they actually alter the character we play more than just by adding experience points and giving us some pocket change and maybe a weapon or armor? Why is it that building a profession can't be more involving for the player? Instead of "point and click on that object to mine it". Maybe buildng a profession could be some kind of personal quest!?
There's so much that this genre has to offer to gamers. For PC gamers and even beyond. I think that many game makers may have only scratched the surface as to the potential this genre possesses.
But I've babbled on long enough...the real question is what do YOU think?
Comments
I think many of the ideas you have is very very good.
The problem is that each of the things you point out, will resolve in a whole new genre. In traditionel as we see them today MMORPG's you grind/quest/level for items and experience points. The reason you do this is to become a greater character than your friends/foes, and being able to beat them, or beat certain monsters they cannot kill.
Or maybe that is just my viewpoint in this matter.
But the fact is still MMORPG's is about progress. Progress is not achieved if anyone is just as good as you, from day one.
So the developers put in variables, such as Skills, Levels and Items. Some games only have one aspect of each, that really defines the character, while other games have them all but some of them are less important.
I found my golden middleway... It was called Dark & Light.
Sadly the game developers was French.
/The End
PS: I play a PC, not a Console, thus i use Keyboard and mouse
))
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
I dont want to take away the massively multiplayer aspects, and i dont want to take away the roleplaying aspects. But When I think of role-playing I don't think of it as something based upon how long I have played as a character VS. how long someone else has played theirs. I mean I assume that "roleplaying" is a way for a person to "become" someone of an alternate reality. And though experience is a part of learning in how to become an overachiever in a given realm, I don't think that "Xp points" are something you need to literally earn in a game. I wouldn't say that is experience, as much as a rough estimate of time you've played the game (probably its more relative to how many quests you've done or things you've killed).
But take a game like Guild Wars again. There are plenty of people who have high xp (over 1,000,000 xp) but they don't have the "know-how" to be effective in pvp. Why? Because the gameplay is different and you soon begin to realize that your exp will not help you here as much as cooperative play, true understanding of your skill sets and not to mention your understanding of your opponents arsenal.
I guess what I mean to say is that Guild Wars is a game that showed me that excessive leveling is not needed to make a game fun (and in my opinion many mmorpg's always seem to find a way to suck the fun out of leveling). When you play a game where everyone is the same level the competitive meter goes up a good number of notches! Its because everyone realizes that the gameplay is more centered around how you, the player, can make an effective assault on others. Your wits are what give you your true power, not the amount to time you spent doing repetitive quests (but that's getting back on my soap box again..hehe) .
And I didn't mean for anyone to misconstrue me wanting to change the combat system as wanting to get rid of learning new "skills" all together. I guess the best example of a game that did something like this was "Way of the Samurai 2" on PS2 (RPG, but not MMO...and I'm only referring to the combat system, nothing else).
I know that grinding/questing/farming/leveling is tradition, but that doesn't make it good. We are playing on PC's, the forefront of innovative technology. I think we should be thinking of fresh new ideas to make headway in this genre! Let's not compromise fun for tradition.
I postulated what I called an MMOPlatformer in a thread in the developers corner.
Essentially you create your character's appearance, assign skill points, and that's it. No levelling. Designers would create content with platform games in mind (like ratchet and clank or Jak and Daxter). That content would exist in a persistent world.
I like dthe idea because it's not only a twitch game, but it incorporates jump puzzles and the like. Also, players could hold contests without worrying too much about who's what level and do they have epic equipment. You really could have archery contests, races, etc.
In everyway, this is what I was hoping Sims Online would be. Unfortunately it wasn't.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
MMO's these days are well. . . they just are what they are.
I enjoy them.. and believe it or not I even enjoy the grind and terrible storylines and horrible quest systems on some games.
I love getting excited thinking that this next MMO that I am downloading could be "the one", only to find that It's trash to me.
And I like getting on here and ranting and raving about how much of a pain and dissapointment some games were.
I'd deffinately agree that I would like the games to 'get a new outlook', but I really don't hope for it.
The way I've come to go by, the old saying, "If ya want something done right, do it yourself."
So, I figure untill I get up off my butt and make the best game there ever was, I'll deal.
Well why dont you help them out by giving some ideas. I mean, don't you think that the gamer's viewpoint is just as important as the game maker's?
I don't think the problem is lack of ideas so much as it is lack of ability to put them to the test quickly, and the enormous cost of testing them out through all the reasonable paths.
It would be cool if there were some kind of MMO construction set, where one could set up a zone with standard graphical items, then change the rules quickly and easily to see if the new ideas worked. This would not reduce the testing time necessarily, but it would eliminate a lot of the development time compared to what is available currently. I suspect most of the development budget goes into art, programming, and game design elements that are somewhat repetitive from one game to another, rather than into elements that define a game's uniqueness.
I want to play Scions of Fate Duhh... oh and Go mmorpg.com!
I would like more niche games in the hopes that there would be a niche community.
One thing that was awesome in high school was when i was on the swim team it was a 20 man nerd fest, We had music like the descendants and black flag cranked up on the stereo during practices, and everyone liked each other. Probably part of the reason I liked it so much was cause there weren't any football players or basketball players on the team. So what I'm saying instead of an MMO that caters to football players, basketball players, and swimmers I wish there was one just for swimmers, without having to sacrifice stuff like graphics and interface friendlyness.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
well.......in the future, there will be a MMO that requires live action movment....as in using WASD keys + mouse to move around and attack.....not double clicking and watching
as in u have to aim where ur characters going and stuff.....lol man if only oblivion was and MMO.....that'd be nice wouldn't it?
Death's Little Helper, Watch your ass
Unless they changed it, Roma Victor has controls like that, and a bunch of other very cool features.
But sadly it was developed almost out of a garage, so lotta bugs and graphics more dated than EQ circa 1999.
This was actualy promised for EQ2, but that never happened. Big companies dont innovate, they just copy what already works.
Well, in Ultima Online there was no Exp, there was skills. And these skills requires excessive training to make your character good.
The MMO genre is all about how much time you spent behind the screen. That is a fact. I can't see how you could make a great game without these curves of either quest grinding, or just pure grinding... Either for Exp or for skill levels.
WoW, is probably the closest thing to what you describe... or maybe even Guild Wars(havent played it myself), it is pretty easy compared to other of the really good MMO's ive played, to reach max level... Thus be on par with most other players, except the people who raid 24/7, or have the best PvP gear.
Still, in my opinion MMORPG's shouldn't be casual(Less than 2 hours play a day). If MMO's are casual that would just open up for even more newbies that reach max level, or have the best gear(World of Warcraft as an example).
I don't own a console so i can't say i know what you are talking about. But i guess i can see what you are trying to say. The problem is just that in MMO's there is generally 2 types of characters; Casters and Melee. I suppose you could play a melee type character on a gamepad, but the caster requires skills in the form of spells. And i can't see how you would do that with a gamepad. You could maybe, use the gamepad to choose the spell you are trying to cast, the problem with that, is that it is most likely faster and easier to cast with a mouse and keyboard. Thus making this idea good for Melee type players, but indeed very bad for casters.
))
Age of Conan will be released for Xbox 360... so let's see how that works out
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
I can't see how you could make a great game without these curves of either quest grinding, or just pure grinding... Either for Exp or for skill levels.
well, you could. Darkfall is supposed to have that. The grind is down to a minimum and even a newbie has a chance to knock out a vet, its all about how skillful you are, not so much what your toons lvl is or what he/she is wearing.
Now whether Darkfall ever comes out or not is beside the point, the point is that that kind of game is already designed. We just have to wait who actually makes it a reality, be it Darkfall or whatever.
I know they are designing a game to be like that.
I can't wait to see the game prove me wrong... Because i am never wrong
))
It won't work, or their game description is false...
If game levels does not make your character better than the player that played the game for 2 years.
What does?
Gear or player skills?
If acquiring gear doesn't make your character... What is the meaning playing the game?
If it is player skills, the game is nothing more than a First Person Shooter, but with swords and spells. Meaning it is not a MMORPG.
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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well, you could. Darkfall is supposed to have that. The grind is down to a minimum and even a newbie has a chance to knock out a vet, its all about how skillful you are, not so much what your toons lvl is or what he/she is wearing.
Now whether Darkfall ever comes out or not is beside the point, the point is that that kind of game is already designed. We just have to wait who actually makes it a reality, be it Darkfall or whatever.
I know they are designing a game to be like that.
I can't wait to see the game prove me wrong... Because i am never wrong
))
It won't work, or their game description is false...
If game levels does not make your character better than the player that played the game for 2 years.
What does?
Gear or player skills?
If acquiring gear doesn't make your character... What is the meaning playing the game?
If it is player skills, the game is nothing more than a First Person Shooter, but with swords and spells. Meaning it is not a MMORPG.
MMORPG means massively multiplayer online roleplaying grind? While its not really wrong, actually it sounds more accurate that way, nowhere does it say that a game has to involve huge grind to be a real MMORPG.Gear and lvls still do make a difference, its just that the focus is more on player skill. Even WOW has some player skill involved, but there the focus is the same old lvls/gear.
Maybe you should try to think outside the box?
All and mmo needs is a fun long lasting fulfilling grind.
WoW's grind through 60 is fun and fulfilling but it is really short, hence why a lot of casual people who can play it for a long time and not get through the game play it, also a lot of the HC players who hate raiding hate this game because your done in 2 weeks.
A lot of games have long somewhat fulfilling grind but they just aren’t fun enough to get a lot of people playing.
Then again the issue isn’t so much the grind but the fact that mmorpgs are being made with the idea of forcing people to grind for some "end game" goal. Someone needs to make one where the goal is to have fun grinding the lvls and skills not thinking about how great it will be once you get skill xyz to the max lvl.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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I have played so many MMO's over the years, but i think you are right in what you say, it would be nice to see a MMO that is very different from the others. Im just not sure how it could be done.
Im not so sure the expense of developing these ideas is the problem, because once a successful game is made the turnover is massive, and if it works and keeps people interested then the money will keep rolling. I think it really boils down to is coming up with the new ideas.
Skill vs Experienced character. Lets say your playign Quake 3. You join a server and spawn in, your opponent has already got the rocket launcher and armour, you only have a machine gun. Does that mean you have automaticaly lost? Hell no! does it mean your going to have an easy time? no, but if your good you have a fighting chance.
As for what the point of playing a game if gear doesn't make your character unbeatable?
-One its fun. Not every game has to show you a collection of pixels shaped like a sowrd to make you play it and let you have fun.
-Two to make your character stronger and to hone your skills.
-Perhaps gear isn't the focus of Darkfall. Its not WoW where your raid for 12 months only to be rewarded with some purples to show off too other carebears and n00bs. No Darkfall is a game designed around player freedom to enjoy the game, to build and to destroy too shape the world and have it shaped by others. You can be a merchant and trade between cities, you can be a priate and prey on the merchants, you can build guild cities or you can seige other peoples cities and take them for your own.
well, you could. Darkfall is supposed to have that. The grind is down to a minimum and even a newbie has a chance to knock out a vet, its all about how skillful you are, not so much what your toons lvl is or what he/she is wearing.
Now whether Darkfall ever comes out or not is beside the point, the point is that that kind of game is already designed. We just have to wait who actually makes it a reality, be it Darkfall or whatever.
I know they are designing a game to be like that.
I can't wait to see the game prove me wrong... Because i am never wrong
It won't work, or their game description is false...
If game levels does not make your character better than the player that played the game for 2 years.
What does?
Gear or player skills?
If acquiring gear doesn't make your character... What is the meaning playing the game?
If it is player skills, the game is nothing more than a First Person Shooter, but with swords and spells. Meaning it is not a MMORPG.
MMORPG means massively multiplayer online roleplaying grind? While its not really wrong, actually it sounds more accurate that way, nowhere does it say that a game has to involve huge grind to be a real MMORPG.
Gear and lvls still do make a difference, its just that the focus is more on player skill. Even WOW has some player skill involved, but there the focus is the same old lvls/gear.
Maybe you should try to think outside the box?
I personally agree, and disagree at the same time.
I, for one, am the type of gamer that would love to pick up a game and have the same chance to do something as the next guy. At the same time, without having a level or some type of grind cycle, there is no real furthering of your character, in any traditional sense.
I think one of the main problems in todays MMO market is that if you aren't the 'new game on the block' you really have no chance at expanding. There is such a HUGE difference between a new player and a vet that anyone who joins up in these older games feels far and left behind, and usually, ends up giving up because of lack of players to play with. It's not that the game is empty, it's that his 'grind mechanism' area is so different from the next that he can't play with anyone.
I would love to somehow magically solve this and say "Yes, look, now you can play with your new friend, no penalties, no disadvantages to either of you, it's just good clean fun. The problem is, if you have no goals to be able to set for yourself, where is the challenge in the game? We all love to be able to sit down and have fun, but when it dwindles down to it, we need goals. We need to say "I want to be x level to be able to do y thing or wear z gear" or we need to want to get to skill level xyz in order to advance that skill up, and be that more efficient at raiding the grotto of forgotten truth.
Now please don't go saying that raiding isn't the only thing to do, I realize this, but that's not the point. The fact holds true no matter what your passtime whether it's purley PvP or PvE based, there has to be a goal you set, you reach that goal, and you move onto the next. I can't see much advancement if player x and y have the same kind of feel to their characters, except one is 1 day old and the other 1 year old.
If someone can come up with some meaningful task that I have playing this game in the world of "I need to difference between me and him that will affect combat" I will be right there. Until then, i'm a sceptic.