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MMORPGs and cheating
Shagsbeard
Member Posts: 71
Recently moved from DAoC to Shadowbane to DAoC to Lineage II. In each case my experience was befouled by people cheating. I'm darn close to giving up on the entire genre. I'm not even talking about the most extreme forms of cheating, but those that some consider "fair play". In a competative game, which each of these were, a level playing field is essential. Players using multiple computers and accounts have an extreem advantage over those who chose to play a single character. Now... are they cheating? Probably not. But they are ruining the game for others, which in the long term is bad for the MMORPG genre. We're getting a rep for being a bunch of cheaters. My litmus test for the next game I subscribe to is how it deals with cheaters. I don't care what type of game it is... fantasy, sci-fi... what have you. I just want to be assured that cheating, exploiting, macroing/botting, ebaying... all that crud will not be tolerated and will be policed. All companies say they do... but in my experience it's not enough.
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
Comments
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Killer 86%, Socializer 53%, Explorer 33%, Achiever 26%
Yer also going to have to take into account your definition of cheating versus the companies definition of cheating. I seriously doubt any company will ever consider someone running 2 accounts cheating, considering they're getting twice the money from said person. As long as that person is using the 2 accounts in a "fair" manner, meaning like with DAoC they're not using the 2nd account to spy on other realms. Granted this really isn't fair to people who choose to play with just one account, but in most cases "not fair" does not equal "cheating".
(not saying I support either side, just stating that it really isn't as cut and dried as cheating or not cheating)
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
Ok first off having two accounts isnt cheating. You have to pay for both accounts you still have to do things the same way every one else does so I dont see this as cheating. As for other people using an account well I dont have a problem with that either. If some one gives some body else access to there account they take the risk of being ripped off.
As for ebay well I dont have a problem with this. As for people in game exploiting dont have a problem with that either. If developers dont want people exploiting then they need to remove it. Nothing you have described is what I would call cheating. The only thing I can tell you is that nothing is gone change this is the way its been and the way its always going to be. So id suggest either go back to single player games or deal with these issues cause theres nothing you can do about it.
As I've said Kiltak... Many consider running two accounts fine. Not cheating. But many others are driven from the game because they feel others are cheating. It's not your definition, nor mine, that matters. If more people than not consider it cheating then it's bad for the industry. I personally am sick of it. From buff bots in DAoC to auto-healers in L2.... I'm just sick of it.
Edit: to get Kiltak's name right.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
Games MMORPG
Games MMORPG
Cheating does ruin online games. Playing against cheaters is not fun. I'll ignore minor cheating as long as the game developers strive to fix it and as long as there isn't too much minor cheating.
My problem is with the Unfair Advantage. There's not much a developer can do to close the rift between casual gamers and power gamers. The structure of the game can somewhat reduce it if good enough features are in place to limit most advantages.
But similar to the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, humans will always find a way to get the upper hand and find weaknesses in the system. Especially the people who have a ton of time and enough resources.
_________________________________________
Genetics loads the gun; lifestyle pulls the trigger.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
Shags multiple accounts will always be around and the it'll become more mainstream as time goes on. After playing EQ for so long and seeing the number of people 2-boxing really become widespread I can see how it can be very useful. I can also imagine how you may feel it's an unfair advantage in some instances but I really can't see how it can ruin a game for you. I think you really just need to get use to it as more and more people start to use multiple accounts. Even I used EQW to play 2 characters on 1 comp at times to power lvl.
Now from what you said it seems you're looking for a game that allows you to have solo pvp but that will always be hard to come by in MMORPG's with or without multiple accounts. If you run into a group of people it's not any different then 1 person playing multiple accounts. I have to admit though buffbots in DAoC (I only played to lvl 40 upon release so it wasn't an issue) seem to be really out of control and I'm still surprised it's a problem that hasn't been addressed. What it really comes down to though is you need to start going with a group of people if you're looking for pvp action. You just aren't going to find the straight forward 1v1 fight that you're looking for unless it was pre-arranged.
Actually, I like the PvP games for their sense of realism... I don't typically participate in it. But that's besides the point. My personal tastes, as well as yours, are not the issue here. It's the overall mood of the entire genre that concerns me. The attitude "This isn't cheating so if you don't like it quit" is exactly what is keeping the market from expanding. Many people do consider two boxing as cheating. Many consider powerleveling cheating, even if done by two players. There has to be some concern here because every game I have played does something to discourage it. There's all sorts of examples we could list where someone's play, legal or not, ruins the game for other players.
Ask yourself... should a MMORPG discourage power leveling? If there is an inkling of "yes, because..." in you then that same arguement should apply ten fold to two boxing. The cheating I'm seing in L2 is more path exploiting, and macroing/botting. Some say it's fine to sit on top of a cliff and kill off 100+ mobs with no risk of injury. Ok... fine. I'll let them play their stupid game. But the company that puts a "feature" like this in their game isn't going to get my $15/month.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
I agree, I'm also fed up with the cheaters.
I'm in the Lineage-2 beta too, and from what I've seen they aren't pursuing exploiters with any effectiveness.
I do think the game is set up well to discourage the simple double-boxing; there's enough effort required in combat that I can't see running a second toon effectively. The problem there is that people are running macros to assist the bots. I've heard of players running as many as 5 characters at once by automating much of the play.
The ones that really bother me are the ebayers. My first week a level-20 in starter armor and no idea of the game runs up to me wanting to know where the $2 million weapons are sold. Stuff like that makes me not even want to play; why bother if some noob can simply buy their way to success?
Watching players in Lineage-2, it does seem overrun with exploiters. Archers rounding up mobs and then chewing them up from ledges. Obvious bot groups. (they'll even name them -Bot or -Slave) Level 20s with 3-4 million in equipment. The first is really a game mechanics fault, but NCsoft declared it an exploit, so of course all the kiddies create archers and go at it.
The Lineage-2 environment already seems spoiled. There was also a known duplication exploit that probably fed much of the ebay cash. It's difficult enough to compete effectively while holding down a job, and the ubiquity of the exploiters combined with the ineffectiveness of NCsoft in curtailing them makes it seem hopeless.
I'm also looking forward to WoW more now, partly because of Blizzards hard line on cheaters.
I remember when this guy had JUST made a character, he logged that day, and never came back on (I know because everytime I tried Whispering him it said target not found or something) Well anyway. I got up to level 14 that day (I just started too). The next day when I saw him, he was fighting Warewolves with his bare hands. I asked him what level and he told me 1. Its pathetic. Now I think I am level 20.
As far as blizzard goes, they shouldn't ban people, they are the stupid @$$'s who made these cheats. You know what.
I am going to write them a letter!!!!
I suspect that could've been me. I remember I said something like that to someone. But I said it due to annoyance- He kept asking me what level I was.
I'm gonna tell you something. You have to able to distinguish cheater from exploiters, and exploiters from power leveler.
I'm currently near lvl 40 in L2, and there are some quick ways to level up fast. You need to do some research on this game, on how mobs are distributed, which NPC gives which quests, which mob drops which item at what percentage, what mobs are passive or aggro, how each mobs' movement speed is, etc.... These are product of research and experiences, and not of exploitation. L2 prelude has some class imbalance issue but not that serious one. L2 Chronicle 1 will fix this imbalance in a big way.
Now it is known that some people within one clan poor money to the other member as a way to make the clan move in faster track. These sort of activities are legitimate. Do I like that other clan do this sort of thing. You bet I don't. But do I have any basis to judge this sort of activities. No. You have to know this sort of activities are not a cheat nor exploitation. It's just the choice they made.
Cheat are those who sell 500a worth of "world map" for 7k, or those who prey players with expensive items in vicious organized way - so called "Chaos maker" - lower lvl player deliverately provoque high level player holding expensive item and in the end turn him red, and others flood the chao and steal it's dropped weapon. These bread of people are both griefer and cheaters. But in their point of view, they are only role-playing.
Multi-account-one-user (for monetary advantage) or Multi-user-One-Account (for time advantage) are all legitimate. There is absolutely nothing the developer can do about it. Do I like this sort of activities? Well I don't have basis to say no. One thing for sure is they are not cheater, it is allowed.
No MMORPG can prevent this sort of activities nor do they have reason to prevent it.
However, I m against "bot" users but I have no problem with multi-account-one-user or multi-user-one-account. It is just a choice they are making to serve their own goal.
Now most of common trait in power lvler that you see in L2 is that they are 24/7 players foremost, they are almost exclusively associated with a clan, they know exactly what mob give best exp at given level, knows which spots are best for farming, have network of friends for selling items in queue, and they almost exclusive use soul shot/spirit shot combo.
I read a lot more than I reply or post but this one caught my eye. I see the word "Cheating" being thrown around easily with what seems to me a laxed definition.
Cheating is breaking the Rules of Conduct. Nothing more nothing less.
Exploiting is using the "Letter of the Law" so to speak to produce results unintended by the game designer. Pathing problems, AI problems and Mapping(collision errors or stepping out of the collision domain) are all examples of exploiting.
And as for "Unfair Advantage." Take a look around people. Gaining the "Advantage" is what getting ahead in life is all about. Think of any situation in life and I will show you how anyone will try to gain an advantage. Your parents try to do the best they can to get you into the best schools (or maybe even get you to stay in school) so that you can gain an advantage over others. Pro sports teams try to aquire the best athletes to gain an advantage over other teams. Chess players will try to intimidate their opponents to gain an advantage. Name any venue and you will see someone trying to gain an "Advantage."
Whether or not it is "Unfair" is for the your own moral code to decide. Obviously, the makers of titles like DAoC are trying to gain an advantage over others in the industry and feel that allowing multiple accounts will help them do that. If you do not like the way they try and gain their advantage do not support their game and company, but do not write it off as cheating or supporting cheating.
Isn't this Web Site designed around the entire idea of gaining an Advantage on the games we love. Look at the constant fight over who has the highest rated game currently in the market. How many times have we seen Anarchy Online and Dark Ages of Camelot switch places for top dog. We all try to gain the advantage. What I want to know is how many people out there create mulitple log on accounts to this Site just so they can rate their favorite game a little higher or to gain another entry into a beta contest? Isn't that trying to gain an "Advantage." Is it "Unfair?" I make no judgements about it. I just play the way I want and support any game that allows me to do that.
I once logged into 4 different accounts (to complete a group of eight) on 3 computers in DAoC (No they were not all my accounts) so that some friends could get together and complete a quest for one member of the team. Is that unfair? The guy that we helped complete his quest did not think so. And for all those people that don't like buff bots. How many times have you taken a buff when offered or gotten one when asked. Accept what the cards are in front of you and play your game. Fold if you don't like them and wait for the next deal.
Ignus
Exploits will always be in a game and it is necessary for players to report them so they can be fixed. The sheer size of the games makes it tough to find every exploit. It is an issue if the gaming company does not do anything about it.
Macros in Beta Blizzard is using the philosophy to allow all macroing in Beta so they can determine what will or will not be appropriate in the live game. What is Lineage II philosophy on macroing? If the game allows it then dont play, find one that matches your sense of fairness. I dont know how to macro, so if it a big part of the game to compete then I will not play.
Ebay and buying items I not sure how this affects a persons playing. I meet some nice people in DAOC and they gave me gold, equipment, etc. Is this wrong? I can see in a PvP environment where a person can buy the best equipment and this allows them be unbeatable, but that can fixed by game mechanics (ie level limits on equipment, etc.)
Two computers - I play two accounts in DAOC, I prefer it. Will I create a buff bot, maybe, but only if I want to take the time. The buff bot issue in DAOC is more an issue of buffs with no range limit and less about two computers. If the buffs would have a range limit then two computers would be fine because you would have to put your buff bot in harms way, which most people would say is more reasonable.
Lastly, I have never seen why power leveling is viewed as cheating. Some-one will have to help explain why it is wrong to level up quickly and how it affects me and you. If another person plays more and levels faster how is this different? If some-one can give an explanation of how power leveling affects your character in a negative way, I would like to hear it (no flames please).
What always bothered me was people accusing me of cheating because they were such newbs and didn't have a clue. In UT I used to get plenty of complaints about "cheating" because : "who can hit someone with primary while dodging" or crap like that.
If its real cheating, then I agree - just make sure if your going to put the accusation out you make sure its for real.
Cheating and exploits...
I agree, for the fun of the game, they must be fighted...
But, how is hard. I think to limit a 2 computers/account abuse you need a game that require a lot from the player, if it dont required a lot, well, folks do it. Personnally I never got troubles with it, and even allow them to get twice the loot, but when they lack, I send them throught the pit of lacking, and not lacking with 2 accounts require a lot of efforts. Someone wanna dual box, fine, but if you have twice the loot, then make sure you dont make me feel you are ghetto with any of the 2 account or you gonna be groupless in no time.
Now, honestly, most folks playing 2 toons on 1 account are VERY nice peoples that just want 1 share of loot and the second toon is only grouped when we cant find another player, which bring a win/win situation to the group instead of a lose/lose situation, but as a downside, everyone want them! 
I really think the future of the genre should go where each player play a group, not only 1 toon, but a full group, you only need to add a few nice features and nobody will even want to try to dual box 2 accounts unless they have some insane coordination skill(like jet fighter pilots). Real time is what make folks dual box, go in a nice game based turn and there is no way they will want to dual box if you design it fine(if you lack, yes, they will dual box a lot more).
Cheating need direct exemplary actions, but you know, it is hard. Company dont mind cheaters when they are alone home, so this is new work, I think most of them are doing an okay job on this and they are working hard.
Exploiting...well, as a player, unless it is pretty obvious you exploit a bug(like a mob run in a wall or something like that), I dont believe in exploits, they are features and the game was design that way. Someone Quadding is just using a feature and they can change it if they want, someone hitting a mob that run in a wall is abusing a bug. AE hunting was a thrill, many will say it was an exploit, it was not even the best way to earn XP in the game, but it was sure a thrill and more challenging then anything else I try, and it have a fast pace, every few minutes you have huge action! Then you have a little downtime to go to the bathroom and nobody in the group mind, or you can just talk with your group/guild/zone...I miss AE! AE was often accused to be easy, it was the hardest thing I ever see in EQ and I read stuff on how Qarm is killed, and from an individual point of view, the AE in a hard zone was more requiring then the Qarm fight. Of course, there is challenge for more peoples in such a raid, but each person face a smallest challenge IMO. (not humble opinion here hehe, kinda convinced). I recall peoples saying that *raiding a mob is an exploit*, and from a soloer point of view, I cant argue with that, this logic, althought I dont agree with it, make sense, completely, from a soloer point of view. Heck, earning anything in a group is an exploit from a soloer point of view!
But yes, the game need to be designed to meet the expectations of everyone, including that soloer above! Solo uberness can only be achieved soloing for those players, if you do it any other way, you kill the soloing aspect of the game. Same goes with every other aspect of the game.
Cheating, exploits, bugs, they are all 1 big family and the company actions(or lack of actions) mean a lot to every player.
Dont be afraid, 1 company eventually will come for your tastes...or maybe even for the tastes of everyone(or almost).
Peoples doing any action dont mind been weak in all the rest of the game, as they can always do any part of the game to earn the rewards they care for, and if they care for those rewards, it mean they like that aspect of the game, if they dont wanna earn it playing that aspect of the game, they are just not really interested and love to abuse others, like it is always the case in a human society.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
NCsoft does not wipe their open betas. Since we'll have to live with the results in P2P of those who made their gains through cheats in OB, it does matter. It's different for a company that wipes between OB and P2P.
Things like powerleveling, guildpooling, chaosmakers, while I dislike these tactics and the sort of people who employ them, I don't consider these cheating. Just unpleasant people.
Botting, ebaying, duping, and the use of exploits that have been posted as such (such as rounding up mobs that can't hit back) are cheating. My issue here lies less with the players (I think it's pathetic to cheat in an online game) than with the gaming companies. The soft line taken by companies like NCsoft (if we catch you again, then we'll warn you again!) simply insures that the game leaders will be the most unabashed of the cheaters. Obvious intentional cheating should result in character deletion and banning. Cheaters in Lin-2 aren't even cowed enough to hide what they're doing.
Again, I'm hoping to see a hard line taken by Blizzard. Enough to trip up the losers who are always quick to come up with the usual justifications for their cheating, (I see a few of the posts here already) would do a lot to make WoW a great game. The unabashed bragging and justification of unearned success is souring Lin-2.
Two accounts really depends on the game. Games like AO state in the EULA you can't log onto two at once, but you can still have two.
Duping, thats just outright cheating. Macroing/botting I really go both ways on. I mean, if you're sitting there in SWG with a macro (Not the in-game macros, since they're perfectly fine) to sample some metals, its not hurting anyone. But if you have a combat macro on where you're just camping outside some shuttleport killing/looting people while afk...yea, thats a bit too far.
ok can someone explain to me why they think using 2 accounts is cheating and driving people from the game?
So playing like having 2 accounts with my wife and/or son playing one and me playing the other is fine, but if they don't feel like playing and I log on with both accounts that's somehow a cheat?
As long as people aren't otherwise abusing the accounts (aren't using some macro or robot program to run them), what the hell is wrong with running both?
We can talk about buff bots and leaving one account in total safety while the other is out adventuring and yes that's pretty cheesy, but if both accounts toons are 'in the danger area' I really don't see wtf the problem is.
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Killer 80%|Achiever 53%|Socializer 46%|Explorer 20%
The best things about mmo games is that you get to play with all different types of people and the game is ever changing.
The worst thing about mmo games is that you have to play with all different types of people.
It seems to be a catch 22.
I too agree with the original poster that cheaters and exploiters run off more new players than they attrack. And I would like to see more companies try to get an actual handle on certain forms of abuse. I also agree with posters that say what I may think is exploiting/cheating is not what others might. There's probably quite a few things we could all agree on. Maybe those are the ones devs/game companies could start with.
Joining multi game guilds is one way you have a better chance of surrounding yourself with people you enjoy gaming with.
In the mean time, I'll just vote for games with me feet and my wallet.
Quote:
ok can someone explain to me why they think using 2 accounts is cheating and driving people from the game?
End Quote
Sure. It's cheating me out of my immersion into a game. When I play a MMORPG the second M stands for Mult-player. This implies that there is a player playing the characters I see on the screen. Having a bot attached to yourself healing you automatically or providing buffs for you destroys the illusion that these characters represent people. It detracts from the spirit of the game. Now... is it cheating? Most games have in the rules a clause similar to "no actions contrary to the spirit of the game" or something equally vague in their list somewhere. I submit that playing multiple characters is intrisically against the spirit of a roleplaying game.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
-Sig-
Don't try to teach a pig to sing,
It rarely works and only serves to annoy the pig.
_________________________________________
Genetics loads the gun; lifestyle pulls the trigger.
_________________________________________
Genetics loads the gun; lifestyle pulls the trigger.