yeah.... 3 factions is so good.... just look at RF online.... the novelty goes away fast, and alliances between two factions breaks the game... i m glad there is only 2 factions, destruction and order!
Yeah some people may think that a 2 race game would fail since one of them being more powerful would completely make the game boring, but the same thing happens when more races are included such as the example you gave RF online in which sometimes 2 races would ally against the other, alliances which lasted even months ruining the experience in a 2v1 unwinnable situation.
2 factions makes more sense IMO. Don't really know anything about Warhammer lore, but from what others have said it seems there's no end-all reason to have three factions and Mythic didn't want to deal with having 3 again. It was cool in DAoC, but the RvR system was different than it will be (at least at this point) in WAR and the only time having three factions had any real impact was in the battlegrounds. In frontier warfare it was usually 1v1 with the occassional representative from the other realm showing up and getting ganked. I can think of a few times where Albion was launching a relic raid on Hibernia and we in Midgard had fun killing those in smaller groups going to help, and vice versa when we were raiding or being raided, and there were some similar situations during keep sieges where we would get hit in the back or, again, vice versa. However those were few and far between, and Mythic, as well as most of the player-base, probably feels that the 3-faction thing was cool and unique but it wasn't worth the hassle it caused for balance issues.
I have faith that Mythic will come through on the RvR system in WAR and if Mythic and GW decide that a two faction system (which is much more complicated than say Alliance vs. Horde) will work better for the game then it probably will. And if it doesn't, well, there are always expansions.
If they drop it to 2 factions, Chaos should just have been removed from playable.
Chaos grouped with green/DE? Come on! This doesn't work.
Chaos can't seriously mix with itself, even less with other! Khorne would not group with Tzenth. Now, how could Chaos and anything not Chaos ever group? That make no sense. Skavens with Chaos is a big MAYBE, but DE and Orcs? No way. These devs are clueless.
In the tabletop game, Chaos can indeed ally themselves with Orks and Goblins, Dark Elves and even Undead. Why should it be any different in this version of the game?
In the Warhammer World there is 2 factions - there isn't a 3rd faction - there's no such thing, in the broad scheme of the world. Here's the details of which armies can ally with each other: (Note: I haven't played the TT game for a while, so I might be missing out a few of the new armies here - like the Mercenaries)
"Good" Alliances: High Elves, Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Empire, Dwarfs, Lizardmen
"Evil" Alliances: Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs, Dark Elves, Undead, Orks and Goblins, Skaven
Alliances are generally never completely friendly - save for Empire and Dwarfs who have a great deal of respect for each other, lore-wise. Alliances are usually born out of necessity or a common goal in the Warhammer World. I'd have to say that the most unlikely Alliance in WAR would have to be Dwarfs and High Elves - as they totally distrust each other - but it CAN happen.
I say again... there is NO 3rd faction. - None... None at all... nothing - no 3rd faction.
If they drop it to 2 factions, Chaos should just have been removed from playable.
Chaos grouped with green/DE? Come on! This doesn't work.
Chaos can't seriously mix with itself, even less with other! Khorne would not group with Tzenth. Now, how could Chaos and anything not Chaos ever group? That make no sense. Skavens with Chaos is a big MAYBE, but DE and Orcs? No way. These devs are clueless.
1. @ Factions, Warhammer is two factions, good evil, DoWRR don't count.
2.@Chaos grouping. You obviously did not read that the release is Tzeench only. No khorne, no nurgle, its Tzeentch, so expect some other skills, but not classes.(God wise)
Dark Elves are a result of Chaos itself, so you saying they wouldn't fit just shows you'r ignorance.
Orcs are documented in OLD WHF books as only grouping with Chaos becuase of thier hate towards the Good Kingdoms. Also, remember the last campaign?
You posted without knowing anything I'm affraid.
And in warhammer lore, Chaos mixes with anything it can corrupt noob, l2warhammer.
I used to think that three factions, like DAoC, was ultimately better, but I've reconsidered. The idea is that with 3 factions you can achieve more balance because of shifting alliances. If one faction has more numbers, then two factions can ally against the larger faction, making it more even. Then, if things change, the alliances can change to meet the different conditions. With two sides, unless they are perfectly balanced in numbers, which is impossible, one side will always have an advantage.
However, if one side has bigger numbers than the other two sides combined, then even if two sides ally against a third faction, the imbalance is still there, so it doesn't really solve anything.
I suppose two sides will work just fine.
However, it just seems like there's more intrigue and more opportunity for different scenarios when you have three or more sides, since you never know who is going to ally with whom, or when one faction will betray an alliance and turn on their former allies. That makes things unpredictable, and fun. None of those scenarios is possible with just two sides. It's just us vs. them with no worries or negotiations about switching alliances.
Take EVE for example. There are many guilds which control territory. The interesting thing is not the war between the guilds, but following which guilds are allied with each other, which are at war with each other, and how that changes back and forth as guilds betray alliances, or forge new alliances. Otherwise it would just be blue team vs red team, and that's it.
Just thinking about why I prefer more than two factions, since I guess there is a lack of explanation for what makes it better, here... For me, it has nothing to do with balance. I'd much rather have an interesting game than a balanced one.
I think it has to do with individuality, faction identification and pride. When I'm part of one of only two factions, it doesn't seem like there's as much personality to it. It's just too black and white, had to pick one or the other, could have been either one, really.
But with more factions, things get more colorful. Midgard wasn't "good" or "evil" - it had much more personality than that, and I found myself taking pride in my realm, in the character of it, in being a part of that character, and wanting to see it triumph over the other two. I don't see myself feeling the same way in a two faction game, certainly not if they're chaos/dark/evil vs order/light/good, it's just too simplistic for me to really get into the same way.
Which is probably why I'd like even more factions, not less. More color, more diversity, more of a distinct culture to want to fight for.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
thats why there are 6 RACES. you people are very short sighted in really thinking that 3 factions could ever work right. with the type of imbalances that already exist in 2 faction games its just rediculous to think that adding another would help. even a game like chrome hounds, there really is only 10% of the games pop that plays the third race. ya cool im an individual, but i NEVER have a chance at really accomplishing anything because im the easist to pick on and have no one to back me up. if you want individuality you might have heard of something called a GUILD, you can even set yourself apart from your RACE which is part of your FACTION which means your at most 1/2 of your race which is 1/6 of your faction which one another one have of the server, so your at least 24 times an individual. but how about this lets let you make your three faction game no matter how many resources it takes and see if its even half as interesting as my big left toenail that i removed 3 weeks ago.
in essence quit bitching for the sake of bitching because all you naysayers obviously have really no clue what your talking about and its you that normally ruin the community in any online game because all you do is whine and bitch instead of actually enjoying the opportunites in front of you.
so gome a river and jump in and b/c i hate listening to your illogical, uneducated, and uninformed claims of why this game will suck.
in essence quit bitching for the sake of bitching because all you naysayers obviously have really no clue what your talking about and its you that normally ruin the community in any online game because all you do is whine and bitch instead of actually enjoying the opportunites in front of you.
so gome a river and jump in and b/c i hate listening to your illogical, uneducated, and uninformed claims of why this game will suck.
i hate listen on Cry my a river tbh you got one point with the whining
Erhm.. why 3 races? At the current timeline of Warhammer, Chaos is the greatest enemy. Only a few neutral races are there and some grudges between some races (Dwarfs-High Elves, Skaven-Undead) are left. Lizardmen and Wood elves will be the neutral ones, however in the time of war they are likely to go on the side of the Order (mostly as they are nature loving people who got their realm in the middle of the Order races).
but if you are talking about the one from Mythic, then yes it's going to be a horrible game ... YOU should really consider staying as far away from it as possible. Maybe even pretend it doesn't exist.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but why do you feel this way? Are you Nostradamus?
actually he was saying he doesn't want the OP "YOU" to play WAR - in a "don't like it? don't play it!" kind of way.
As for factions i suppose it could be fun to have a "faction FFA" (6 factions - but you can't fight your own), but this would probably result in a very chaotic/unbalanced war (meaning in theory it could result in 5vs1 ganking or more realistically 3vs1vs1vs1 or something). There are good sides and bad about any scenario but 1vs1 is as good as any. I'm sure with some imagination you could make it apply to lore... Each side fearing the other hence creating a (temporary?) 3vs3 alliance.
The Empire and Chaos are literally in constant battle. The front lines of both of these empires face each other. The Dwarves and Empire have a long standing agreement, so the Dwarves are obliged to help the Empire. The High Elves are a dying race. They are fighting for their very survival, (I have a High Elven Army for the table top game). They are constantly being attacked by the Dark Elves. They also understand that if the Empire were to fall, Chaos would no longer be held in check. As it is, the forces of Chaos are barely being held back.
Dark Elves are twisted High Elves. During the war with Chaos, the elves of Nagarythe fought off the Dark Forces of Chaos. But because of this, they became a cold and bloodthirsty people. Malekith attacked the Phoenix King and caused the event called the Sundering. Much of the High Elven lands were destroyed and the lands of Nagarythe became uninhabitable. Malekith and his followers fled to the north and became known as the Dark Elves. The High Elves that live in the small wastes of what used to be Nagarythe are known as Shadow Warriors. (Told you I was a High Elven Army player.) As such, the Dark Elves are willing to enlist help to rid them of their Light cousins.
The Greenskins and the Dwarves have always been at each others throat. The Greenskins are very untrusting of anyone. Even themselves. The rules of leadership are simple. The biggest, strongest orc is the leader. If you can kill the leader, you are the new leader. The mark of a great Greenskin leader is one that is able to channel the power of the Greenskins to attack anyone in their path. If Greenskins don't have anyone to fight, they fight themselves. This one is a bit harder to put to lore since I don't know much about the Greenskins beyond what their units do and how to fight against them, but this is how I'd see it explained. The current leader sees the forces of the Empire, High Elves and Dwarves fighting together. He knows that even with all his numbers, it's not enough to defeat those 3 combined. So he agrees to a tentative peace treaty with Chaos and the Dark Elves. It's a very "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of situation.
I was actually surprised Mythic and Games Workshop chose to go with Tzeentch, though after hearing their explanation of it, it makes perfect sense. Tzeentch is all about change and control. So he is more than happy to use anyone willing to accomplish his goals.
None of this is anything really new, a lot of it has been mentioned or discussed by other people on these forums as well. Basically it comes down to this though. When you are building an army for a table top battle, the Empire, Dwarves and High Elves can all take units from the other races. Same goes with Greenskins, Chaos and Dark Elves. Making the game a FFA between races would be an absolute nightmare to balance. I am glad Mythic and Games Workshop has decided a 2 faction split is the way to go. That's not to say a third faction won't be added later. There are still so many races that can be added in expansions. Keep in mind, Warhammer Fantasy has 25 years of development behind it. We can still get the Beasts of Chaos, Khorne, Slaanesh or Nurgle, Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Skaven, Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings as possible additions down the road. There is so much lore behind this game, it can be an amazing game. Games Workshop has a huge stake in this game as well. It can be an introduction to the Warhammer world and can interest people in the table top game.
Comments
Yeah some people may think that a 2 race game would fail since one of them being more powerful would completely make the game boring, but the same thing happens when more races are included such as the example you gave RF online in which sometimes 2 races would ally against the other, alliances which lasted even months ruining the experience in a 2v1 unwinnable situation.
I have faith that Mythic will come through on the RvR system in WAR and if Mythic and GW decide that a two faction system (which is much more complicated than say Alliance vs. Horde) will work better for the game then it probably will. And if it doesn't, well, there are always expansions.
I miss DAoC.
In the tabletop game, Chaos can indeed ally themselves with Orks and Goblins, Dark Elves and even Undead. Why should it be any different in this version of the game?
In the Warhammer World there is 2 factions - there isn't a 3rd faction - there's no such thing, in the broad scheme of the world. Here's the details of which armies can ally with each other: (Note: I haven't played the TT game for a while, so I might be missing out a few of the new armies here - like the Mercenaries)
"Good" Alliances: High Elves, Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Empire, Dwarfs, Lizardmen
"Evil" Alliances: Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs, Dark Elves, Undead, Orks and Goblins, Skaven
Alliances are generally never completely friendly - save for Empire and Dwarfs who have a great deal of respect for each other, lore-wise. Alliances are usually born out of necessity or a common goal in the Warhammer World. I'd have to say that the most unlikely Alliance in WAR would have to be Dwarfs and High Elves - as they totally distrust each other - but it CAN happen.
I say again... there is NO 3rd faction. - None... None at all... nothing - no 3rd faction.
Ok, I'm done.
2.@Chaos grouping. You obviously did not read that the release is Tzeench only. No khorne, no nurgle, its Tzeentch, so expect some other skills, but not classes.(God wise)
Dark Elves are a result of Chaos itself, so you saying they wouldn't fit just shows you'r ignorance.
Orcs are documented in OLD WHF books as only grouping with Chaos becuase of thier hate towards the Good Kingdoms. Also, remember the last campaign?
You posted without knowing anything I'm affraid.
And in warhammer lore, Chaos mixes with anything it can corrupt noob, l2warhammer.
However, if one side has bigger numbers than the other two sides combined, then even if two sides ally against a third faction, the imbalance is still there, so it doesn't really solve anything.
I suppose two sides will work just fine.
However, it just seems like there's more intrigue and more opportunity for different scenarios when you have three or more sides, since you never know who is going to ally with whom, or when one faction will betray an alliance and turn on their former allies. That makes things unpredictable, and fun. None of those scenarios is possible with just two sides. It's just us vs. them with no worries or negotiations about switching alliances.
Take EVE for example. There are many guilds which control territory. The interesting thing is not the war between the guilds, but following which guilds are allied with each other, which are at war with each other, and how that changes back and forth as guilds betray alliances, or forge new alliances. Otherwise it would just be blue team vs red team, and that's it.
MMORPG Maker
Just thinking about why I prefer more than two factions, since I guess there is a lack of explanation for what makes it better, here... For me, it has nothing to do with balance. I'd much rather have an interesting game than a balanced one.
I think it has to do with individuality, faction identification and pride. When I'm part of one of only two factions, it doesn't seem like there's as much personality to it. It's just too black and white, had to pick one or the other, could have been either one, really.
But with more factions, things get more colorful. Midgard wasn't "good" or "evil" - it had much more personality than that, and I found myself taking pride in my realm, in the character of it, in being a part of that character, and wanting to see it triumph over the other two. I don't see myself feeling the same way in a two faction game, certainly not if they're chaos/dark/evil vs order/light/good, it's just too simplistic for me to really get into the same way.
Which is probably why I'd like even more factions, not less. More color, more diversity, more of a distinct culture to want to fight for.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
QFT
Also, since TBC release WoW now has.... 1 faction.
What do you mean with 1 faction?? =S i stoped play WoW cause the burning crusade sucked arse.. I HATE WOW!!
in essence quit bitching for the sake of bitching because all you naysayers obviously have really no clue what your talking about and its you that normally ruin the community in any online game because all you do is whine and bitch instead of actually enjoying the opportunites in front of you.
so go
i hate listen on Cry my a river
Erhm.. why 3 races? At the current timeline of Warhammer, Chaos is the greatest enemy. Only a few neutral races are there and some grudges between some races (Dwarfs-High Elves, Skaven-Undead) are left. Lizardmen and Wood elves will be the neutral ones, however in the time of war they are likely to go on the side of the Order (mostly as they are nature loving people who got their realm in the middle of the Order races).
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but why do you feel this way? Are you Nostradamus?
actually he was saying he doesn't want the OP "YOU" to play WAR - in a "don't like it? don't play it!" kind of way.
As for factions i suppose it could be fun to have a "faction FFA" (6 factions - but you can't fight your own), but this would probably result in a very chaotic/unbalanced war (meaning in theory it could result in 5vs1 ganking or more realistically 3vs1vs1vs1 or something). There are good sides and bad about any scenario but 1vs1 is as good as any. I'm sure with some imagination you could make it apply to lore... Each side fearing the other hence creating a (temporary?) 3vs3 alliance.
The Empire and Chaos are literally in constant battle. The front lines of both of these empires face each other. The Dwarves and Empire have a long standing agreement, so the Dwarves are obliged to help the Empire. The High Elves are a dying race. They are fighting for their very survival, (I have a High Elven Army for the table top game). They are constantly being attacked by the Dark Elves. They also understand that if the Empire were to fall, Chaos would no longer be held in check. As it is, the forces of Chaos are barely being held back.
Dark Elves are twisted High Elves. During the war with Chaos, the elves of Nagarythe fought off the Dark Forces of Chaos. But because of this, they became a cold and bloodthirsty people. Malekith attacked the Phoenix King and caused the event called the Sundering. Much of the High Elven lands were destroyed and the lands of Nagarythe became uninhabitable. Malekith and his followers fled to the north and became known as the Dark Elves. The High Elves that live in the small wastes of what used to be Nagarythe are known as Shadow Warriors. (Told you I was a High Elven Army player.) As such, the Dark Elves are willing to enlist help to rid them of their Light cousins.
The Greenskins and the Dwarves have always been at each others throat. The Greenskins are very untrusting of anyone. Even themselves. The rules of leadership are simple. The biggest, strongest orc is the leader. If you can kill the leader, you are the new leader. The mark of a great Greenskin leader is one that is able to channel the power of the Greenskins to attack anyone in their path. If Greenskins don't have anyone to fight, they fight themselves. This one is a bit harder to put to lore since I don't know much about the Greenskins beyond what their units do and how to fight against them, but this is how I'd see it explained. The current leader sees the forces of the Empire, High Elves and Dwarves fighting together. He knows that even with all his numbers, it's not enough to defeat those 3 combined. So he agrees to a tentative peace treaty with Chaos and the Dark Elves. It's a very "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of situation.
I was actually surprised Mythic and Games Workshop chose to go with Tzeentch, though after hearing their explanation of it, it makes perfect sense. Tzeentch is all about change and control. So he is more than happy to use anyone willing to accomplish his goals.
None of this is anything really new, a lot of it has been mentioned or discussed by other people on these forums as well. Basically it comes down to this though. When you are building an army for a table top battle, the Empire, Dwarves and High Elves can all take units from the other races. Same goes with Greenskins, Chaos and Dark Elves. Making the game a FFA between races would be an absolute nightmare to balance. I am glad Mythic and Games Workshop has decided a 2 faction split is the way to go. That's not to say a third faction won't be added later. There are still so many races that can be added in expansions. Keep in mind, Warhammer Fantasy has 25 years of development behind it. We can still get the Beasts of Chaos, Khorne, Slaanesh or Nurgle, Wood Elves, Bretonnians, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Skaven, Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings as possible additions down the road. There is so much lore behind this game, it can be an amazing game. Games Workshop has a huge stake in this game as well. It can be an introduction to the Warhammer world and can interest people in the table top game.