hey you say that Jedi can use saber block on people with ranged weapons but I don't think you can use saber block on players that have them lava guns right? Not unless its changed since I played.
Ok tell me if you can use saber block on a player that has a lava cannon. because when I left the game ever BH & commando had a lava cannon and there was no way to block them and I'm an Elder Jedi too. So tell me has that changed at all , can Jedi now use saber block against lava cannon? If not then how are you suppose to beat some one with a lava cannon when he has ranged up to 64m compared to your 5m lol if you know something I don't please let me know lol
Sadly Jedi was further ruined with the NGE. The playerbase voiced this opinion and thought countless times at Summit meetings and forums. They changed it based on a marketing ploy as stated at the Summit meetings to us. They needed a good gimmick to get people to stay or come back into SWG.
Free Jedi was the best way or good idea to do so. HOWEVER they then had to dummy Jedi down, make it simple and NGE" it if you will as a prof. It is no longer hard or a challenge to be one obviously. You just click Lukes head and go. This is a SOE blunder though, most people now wish they had the old way back of using effort to get one.
Correction most people who were playing just before NGE.People keep forgetting the original first exodus shortly after the story was ripped to bits with jedis running around naboo.
This people wish jedis never came and tampered with the story arc at all.The only reason this crowd was not so missed was because they left and new folks who were jedi inclined came in to fill their shoes.
In NGE case had the old jedi crowd been replaced it would not be so noticeable.But it was not.Ofc this forum will still be a haven no matter what for the "jedi" crowd .You know why?Because they are professional whiners.Before the jedi appeared and got all the changes they wanted to be fruitful and multiply the SWG jedi forum was a spam troll heaven.Pretty much like the "veteran" refuge.To me the real veterans will and always shall be the original crowd who cared about the amazing story line of star wars.
This people wish jedis never came and tampered with the story arc at all.The only reason this crowd was not so missed was because they left and new folks who were jedi inclined came in to fill their shoes.
Jedi had no place in SWG. In my eyes it was the first nail in the coffin everythign after that just started piling the dirt on the grave.
Let's also not forget there shouldn't really be any Jedi floating around.
Amen. That is the real solution to the issue. Player Jedi should never have been an option. Somebody in marketing probably forced it on the developers that told them you have to have Jedi as an option to sell boxes.
But if you are going to have them in game they have to be both rare and reflective of power of even the untrained jedi had, which was considerable compared to non-jedi. SOE got the power part right, just not the rarity. They wimped out and gave in.
But even in the late days of the CU it was possible to salvage the situation. Grinding Jedi were alway in hiding and if we went showing off their power in public, we paid for. They just need to have some mechanic for to encourge the full template jedi to be similarly in hiding. So while there wouldn't be actually rarity to the level that was really needed, there could have been at least perceived rarity. That plus fixing the methods that made village grinding much easier would have done the trick.
The CU is really what made the Jedi situation horribe. The inability to effectively grind solo foced grinding Jedi out into the public. Once you had a bunch of visibility anyway from group grinding, there was no incentive to stay hidden so you lost the preceived rarity.
If SOE/LA really cared about making SWG an inconic Star Warsy, they would remove player Jedi as an option all together. I mean they have already destroyed their credibility anyway, what more harm could it cause. At least the game would be closer to the movies.
Back when Star Wars Galaxies was known as just Star Wars-Online in 2001/2002 the word was that Jedi wasn't going to be a playable class in the game. Both Raph Koster, SOE and LA said that Jedi would be 'unbalanced' in an MMO and too powerful. However there was alot of Players saying Jedi should be in the game, and that they wouldn't play it without Jedi. So really someone (my bet would be someone at LA) desided to give in and put Jedi in the game.
I knew that would be the first big missake of SWG. The Perma-Death idea was good, however I knew that would change sometime in the first year. Granted you'll have Players like Role Players or the like who will work on there Jedi's and keep them hidden. But well, look at alot of MMO Players. When they get that powerful (class, weapon, armor) the first thing they will do is run around with it out and well in this case that got them killed... Hell I can see the first kiddie getting Jedi, running around Theed with his Saber out and laughing about how great he is. Before a Bounty Hunter came up and capped him.... He was most likely on the fourms after that screaming about how 'unfair' the system was. Hey sorry I played Ultima Online from 98 till 2004, I've seen stupid things...
Really there was no way around the Jedi stuff in game. Pre-CU or CU it would have gotten out of hand more slowly then anything. Infact I feel Alpha Jedi was one of the big pushs for the NGE. Still I think Jedi fits in with the game more so now then it did before. If you look and think about it the big Jedi heroes (Obi, the Skywalkers, Yoda) had to be powerful... They are the big heroes of the movies and books. Other Jedi did get killed in battle, or when facing off a highly trained foe.
who is this guy?You mate are amazing !
Finally someone else who actually followed this game from pre-alpha like i did.
Indeed like i posted somewhere before the inclusion of jedi was actually advocated and posted on the site by a LA employee.Strangly enough pre launch LA staff was very vocal and in some posts you really had the impression LA had SoE leash.
The exclusion of jedi espically in this time frame was strongly opposed by 2 now ex SoE developers.Both left even before the game was ready for test.
Ofc now we see the "I hate SoE" mob mentality.But like all midless mobs they have zero knowledge of history.
Its refreshing on this forum to actually meet someone with proper knowledge of the history of SWG.
well the thing is that there are Jedi now and alot of them! So maybe they should redo the game and put it in a diffrent time line, one that fits and explian why there are so many running around. A time line like when Luke is the Jedi master and finding all the stray Jedi and giving them there rightful training. I don't know really I'm just trying to take a stab at something that might make the game fun for me again.
oh yeah I was MTK/swordsman/Doc before I went all the way Jedi and now I'm an Elder Jedi but I think I would trade my elder Jedi in to be MTK/Swordsman/Doc all over again
Let's also not forget there shouldn't really be any Jedi floating around.
Amen. That is the real solution to the issue. Player Jedi should never have been an option. Somebody in marketing probably forced it on the developers that told them you have to have Jedi as an option to sell boxes.
But if you are going to have them in game they have to be both rare and reflective of power of even the untrained jedi had, which was considerable compared to non-jedi. SOE got the power part right, just not the rarity. They wimped out and gave in.
But even in the late days of the CU it was possible to salvage the situation. Grinding Jedi were alway in hiding and if we went showing off their power in public, we paid for. They just need to have some mechanic for to encourge the full template jedi to be similarly in hiding. So while there wouldn't be actually rarity to the level that was really needed, there could have been at least perceived rarity. That plus fixing the methods that made village grinding much easier would have done the trick.
The CU is really what made the Jedi situation horribe. The inability to effectively grind solo foced grinding Jedi out into the public. Once you had a bunch of visibility anyway from group grinding, there was no incentive to stay hidden so you lost the preceived rarity.
If SOE/LA really cared about making SWG an inconic Star Warsy, they would remove player Jedi as an option all together. I mean they have already destroyed their credibility anyway, what more harm could it cause. At least the game would be closer to the movies.
Back when Star Wars Galaxies was known as just Star Wars-Online in 2001/2002 the word was that Jedi wasn't going to be a playable class in the game. Both Raph Koster, SOE and LA said that Jedi would be 'unbalanced' in an MMO and too powerful. However there was alot of Players saying Jedi should be in the game, and that they wouldn't play it without Jedi. So really someone (my bet would be someone at LA) desided to give in and put Jedi in the game.
I knew that would be the first big missake of SWG. The Perma-Death idea was good, however I knew that would change sometime in the first year. Granted you'll have Players like Role Players or the like who will work on there Jedi's and keep them hidden. But well, look at alot of MMO Players. When they get that powerful (class, weapon, armor) the first thing they will do is run around with it out and well in this case that got them killed... Hell I can see the first kiddie getting Jedi, running around Theed with his Saber out and laughing about how great he is. Before a Bounty Hunter came up and capped him.... He was most likely on the fourms after that screaming about how 'unfair' the system was. Hey sorry I played Ultima Online from 98 till 2004, I've seen stupid things...
Really there was no way around the Jedi stuff in game. Pre-CU or CU it would have gotten out of hand more slowly then anything. Infact I feel Alpha Jedi was one of the big pushs for the NGE. Still I think Jedi fits in with the game more so now then it did before. If you look and think about it the big Jedi heroes (Obi, the Skywalkers, Yoda) had to be powerful... They are the big heroes of the movies and books. Other Jedi did get killed in battle, or when facing off a highly trained foe.
who is this guy?You mate are amazing !
Finally someone else who actually followed this game from pre-alpha like i did.
Indeed like i posted somewhere before the inclusion of jedi was actually advocated and posted on the site by a LA employee.Strangly enough pre launch LA staff was very vocal and in some posts you really had the impression LA had SoE leash.
The exclusion of jedi espically in this time frame was strongly opposed by 2 now ex SoE developers.Both left even before the game was ready for test.
Ofc now we see the "I hate SoE" mob mentality.But like all midless mobs they have zero knowledge of history.
Its refreshing on this forum to actually meet someone with proper knowledge of the history of SWG.
Who are you kidding? I was in the Beta and then of course launch... Jedi was told to be a class but hard to reach in beta... in fact (a few devs ran around as them although we never saw a saber)... None the less, the first version of perma death and hard times was the best... I will agree with this and tell you I had the most fun when I unlocked then. BUT from there on out it was sketchy.... Now then, as I was in beta for that and the beta for Jedi going into patch 9 I can sadly tell you that it was going to get worse after that and some of us knew it. As they make things easier , it seems it does not get better. Sure people wanted it as content and the power and feel was fun, but understand the risk vs rewards was harsh too. People forget what it took and how it worked. My pitfalls were just fine and kept in check.. I NEVER had to see one person to have fun, in fact with TEFs and permadeath or skill loss, the last thing you could be was STUPID. That system made sense... sure some people cried, but crap... looking back and seeing what is left now... that was nothing compared to now.
All in all Jedi could have been ketp rare and with harships but this was SOE's idea of fishing for customers.... what better way to get people to play? Hence what you saw happen when the NGE went live with 50000 Jedi ....... in fact it proves the fact that people wanted Jedi, the problem was that the marketing team thought it best to use it as the carrot. Nobody asked for Jedi to be easier.. if anything they wanted it harder in most cases.
Now then as far as the history goes, sure Jedi was not a for sure release-- But as it was said... let's face it Star Wars is largely part Jedi... we all know this. How it was handled was the blunder. Sure LA was more involved then, sure you heard them in beta more--- crap I spent time talking to a shrub or taking orders from one however, I think that people forget that content and that extra effort needed for the class was fun for alot of people. It was magic and a blast for alot of us... the TEF system kept us away from people in the normal sense... due to the fact you were weaker then 10 smart people for sure and back then there was 10 people everywhere you went.
Now the NGE has made Jedi cheap and worse.....empty... the animations, feel and look, not to mention the rareness or enforced hiding due to BH marks and or hunting and loss... There is no purpose for them now. That is the sad part, Jedi was content for alot of people, crafters, harvesters, looters, BH's etc.. now they are just there like the rest..... no loss, no risk, no magic feel of the pink force bar etc.. BUT hey... it's Star Warsy lol.... oh and ICONIC...lol in a Fisher Price, kinda way...lol
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Now then as far as the history goes, sure Jedi was not a for sure release-- But as it was said... let's face it Star Wars is largely part Jedi... we all know this. How it was handled was the blunder. Sure LA was more involved then, sure you heard them in beta more--- crap I spent time talking to a shrub or taking orders from one however, I think that people forget that content and that extra effort needed for the class was fun for alot of people. It was magic and a blast for alot of us... the TEF system kept us away from people in the normal sense... due to the fact you were weaker then 10 smart people for sure and back then there was 10 people everywhere you went.
Actually jedi was never even included in the original draft by the verrant(then SoE) team.They got included when 2 key now ex-SoE developers left.Yeah that how long i followed the game even before there was a game to test
Now what did this guys know that the LA devs did not know?They were experienced devs and partially wrote the "bible of MMORPG" and knew alpha classes are a no no in a mmorpg.
You can make them hard to become but end result is people still want to be the all powerful.
I always liked to think SWG had 2 community jedi and others.Others mostly left pre CU.I can vouch for this because on chilastra where i was mainly the 3 top trade association closed their doors(mine had 20 crafters of which all left pre CU) ,RP clubs closed down and many guilds i know fell apart.
It was not noticeable in population because simply put this crowd left and was replaced by jedi crowd who now heard it was ingame.
The game from a MMO sense was dying long ago even before beta.SoE/LA greatest mistake was trying to rectify such an old problem.
Now when the jedi crowd left SWG no one was there to replace them.
Personally i think SoE/LA were stupid enough not to realise that the community that remained wanted only to play a powerful jedi.Not a watered down one.This late effort to balance the game made no sense at all.
Now then as far as the history goes, sure Jedi was not a for sure release-- But as it was said... let's face it Star Wars is largely part Jedi... we all know this. How it was handled was the blunder. Sure LA was more involved then, sure you heard them in beta more--- crap I spent time talking to a shrub or taking orders from one however, I think that people forget that content and that extra effort needed for the class was fun for alot of people. It was magic and a blast for alot of us... the TEF system kept us away from people in the normal sense... due to the fact you were weaker then 10 smart people for sure and back then there was 10 people everywhere you went.
Actually jedi was never even included in the original draft by the verrant(then SoE) team.They got included when 2 key now ex-SoE developers left.Yeah that how long i followed the game even before there was a game to test
Now what did this guys know that the LA devs did not know?They were experienced devs and partially wrote the "bible of MMORPG" and knew alpha classes are a no no in a mmorpg.
You can make them hard to become but end result is people still want to be the all powerful.
I always liked to think SWG had 2 community jedi and others.Others mostly left pre CU.I can vouch for this because on chilastra where i was mainly the 3 top trade association closed their doors(mine had 20 crafters of which all left pre CU) ,RP clubs closed down and many guilds i know fell apart.
It was not noticeable in population because simply put this crowd left and was replaced by jedi crowd who now heard it was ingame.
The game from a MMO sense was dying long ago even before beta.SoE/LA greatest mistake was trying to rectify such an old problem.
Now when the jedi crowd left SWG no one was there to replace them.
Personally i think SoE/LA were stupid enough not to realise that the community that remained wanted only to play a powerful jedi.Not a watered down one.This late effort to balance the game made no sense at all.
I think you hit it right on the nose with that one....
Ultima Online was kinda the sameway with it's change over from an all PvP game in someways to more of an EQ like game. UO had two Playerbases if you will, one just wanted to hunt, craft and role play in peace. The other wanted to gank the living hell out of the other playerbase cuz for them it was fun. When EQ came out with it's PvP Switch they won that war on the first day, I saw alot of Players just pack up and leave for EQ. As one of my friends put it "I want to play a Knight that go's after monsters and fights the good fight, how can I do that when I have the leet crew of Player Killers running in, killing me and then telling me I'm a newbie."
When UO made that switch over with Trammel, the Player Killer players where upset. Now there game, there prey where leaving to a safe world. They ran onto the fourms and talked about how UO was going to die, how the game should be rolled back to Pre-Trammel, how the change was unfair cuz EA without words told the Pker's in there eyes where to stick it.
In SWG's case you did have two Playerbases. One was made up of Star Wars fans that just wanted a game where they could live out there dreams of being part of the Rebels, or fly a Tie Fighter. The other was just waitting for Jedi or finding out how to be one. Now yes some players wanted to be Jedi not cuz it was 'powerful' but due to the Role Play behind it. Or cuz it was something to shoot for, but really how many of you can truely tell me that everyone was that way? How many players wanted to be Jedi cuz "Jedi is powerful!"
The Playerbase started to leave in the Pre-CU, they saw SWG as a game that was far from ready to come out. A Buddy of mine tired it for a few weeks then went to Final Fantasy 11, he said that the system just didn't feel right for a Sci-Fi Game. And that on his first PvP Outting as a Master Carbineer he was killed in a heartbeat by a Jedi. CU just showed that the game was slowly turning into a Jedi game. The fault of the Jedi system was without Perma-Death in place, and with players who knew how to go out there and grind and not deal with Bounty Hunter's coming after them that they could get that full Jedi Template in no time.
The long term was SOE would have had to made the game much harder. Infact they did, look at the first AI changes to the game. Remember the Bounty Boss Marks that Bounty Hunter's could kill and get good loot off of? The Jedi Players scream that it was unfair and it was too easy for the Bounty Hunter's who now where picking up those AA/CA's with mods to Jedi skills. AI change comes in and most Bounty Hunters got wasted by a boss mark. ToOW, almost every quest I went and did I ended up needing a Jedi to help with. They could blow right past the Jedi MOB's or high level MOB's, most of them came out and said it "I could solo this if I wanted too."
That's just one of the things bring about the downfall of SWG. I even hear guildmates tell me today "I'm a Jedi, I should not get beat by a Bounty Hunter or Smuggler or Commando. And a Medic shouldn't even touch me!" Much like UO that had Player Killing for two years, SWG had an Alpha Class for Two years and no one wants to give that class up.
Now then as far as the history goes, sure Jedi was not a for sure release-- But as it was said... let's face it Star Wars is largely part Jedi... we all know this. How it was handled was the blunder. Sure LA was more involved then, sure you heard them in beta more--- crap I spent time talking to a shrub or taking orders from one however, I think that people forget that content and that extra effort needed for the class was fun for alot of people. It was magic and a blast for alot of us... the TEF system kept us away from people in the normal sense... due to the fact you were weaker then 10 smart people for sure and back then there was 10 people everywhere you went.
Actually jedi was never even included in the original draft by the verrant(then SoE) team.They got included when 2 key now ex-SoE developers left.Yeah that how long i followed the game even before there was a game to test
Now what did this guys know that the LA devs did not know?They were experienced devs and partially wrote the "bible of MMORPG" and knew alpha classes are a no no in a mmorpg.
You can make them hard to become but end result is people still want to be the all powerful.
I always liked to think SWG had 2 community jedi and others.Others mostly left pre CU.I can vouch for this because on chilastra where i was mainly the 3 top trade association closed their doors(mine had 20 crafters of which all left pre CU) ,RP clubs closed down and many guilds i know fell apart.
It was not noticeable in population because simply put this crowd left and was replaced by jedi crowd who now heard it was ingame.
The game from a MMO sense was dying long ago even before beta.SoE/LA greatest mistake was trying to rectify such an old problem.
Now when the jedi crowd left SWG no one was there to replace them.
Personally i think SoE/LA were stupid enough not to realise that the community that remained wanted only to play a powerful jedi.Not a watered down one.This late effort to balance the game made no sense at all.
I think you hit it right on the nose with that one....
Ultima Online was kinda the sameway with it's change over from an all PvP game in someways to more of an EQ like game. UO had two Playerbases if you will, one just wanted to hunt, craft and role play in peace. The other wanted to gank the living hell out of the other playerbase cuz for them it was fun. When EQ came out with it's PvP Switch they won that war on the first day, I saw alot of Players just pack up and leave for EQ. As one of my friends put it "I want to play a Knight that go's after monsters and fights the good fight, how can I do that when I have the leet crew of Player Killers running in, killing me and then telling me I'm a newbie."
When UO made that switch over with Trammel, the Player Killer players where upset. Now there game, there prey where leaving to a safe world. They ran onto the fourms and talked about how UO was going to die, how the game should be rolled back to Pre-Trammel, how the change was unfair cuz EA without words told the Pker's in there eyes where to stick it.
In SWG's case you did have two Playerbases. One was made up of Star Wars fans that just wanted a game where they could live out there dreams of being part of the Rebels, or fly a Tie Fighter. The other was just waitting for Jedi or finding out how to be one. Now yes some players wanted to be Jedi not cuz it was 'powerful' but due to the Role Play behind it. Or cuz it was something to shoot for, but really how many of you can truely tell me that everyone was that way? How many players wanted to be Jedi cuz "Jedi is powerful!"
The Playerbase started to leave in the Pre-CU, they saw SWG as a game that was far from ready to come out. A Buddy of mine tired it for a few weeks then went to Final Fantasy 11, he said that the system just didn't feel right for a Sci-Fi Game. And that on his first PvP Outting as a Master Carbineer he was killed in a heartbeat by a Jedi. CU just showed that the game was slowly turning into a Jedi game. The fault of the Jedi system was without Perma-Death in place, and with players who knew how to go out there and grind and not deal with Bounty Hunter's coming after them that they could get that full Jedi Template in no time.
The long term was SOE would have had to made the game much harder. Infact they did, look at the first AI changes to the game. Remember the Bounty Boss Marks that Bounty Hunter's could kill and get good loot off of? The Jedi Players scream that it was unfair and it was too easy for the Bounty Hunter's who now where picking up those AA/CA's with mods to Jedi skills. AI change comes in and most Bounty Hunters got wasted by a boss mark. ToOW, almost every quest I went and did I ended up needing a Jedi to help with. They could blow right past the Jedi MOB's or high level MOB's, most of them came out and said it "I could solo this if I wanted too."
That's just one of the things bring about the downfall of SWG. I even hear guildmates tell me today "I'm a Jedi, I should not get beat by a Bounty Hunter or Smuggler or Commando. And a Medic shouldn't even touch me!" Much like UO that had Player Killing for two years, SWG had an Alpha Class for Two years and no one wants to give that class up.
The whole history of how SOE handled the Jedi situation just shows how SOE screwed with this IP and MMO. There should have been NO JEDI AT ALL IN SWG. Period. Only Yoda and Obi-Wan were around. And they were in hiding. And Darth and Palpatine don't count because most of the galaxy didn't know what the Sith were.
Now when NGE, came out SOE screwed up again (I personally think the whole NGE was a screwup but that's a discussion I'd rather not have again for the 1000000000 time). Making Jedi a player class for everyone was a ploy to try and retain the vet players. It failed.
These are just two of the reasons I think LE should just pull the IP out from under SOE and make a new Star Wars MMO. One set in either the Old Republic (Jedi galore) or the New Republic (Luke's time--Jedi, but not as much as in the Old Republic). Bottom line is Jedi should be RARE, no matter what time period.
OLD REPUBLIC--rare, but enough to help police the galaxy (not an entire planet of noobs running around thinking they are jedi)
GALACTIC CIVIL WAR ERA-non existent. The 4 sitll in existence are basically not even know as Jedi by the majority of the Galaxy.
NEW REPUBLIC-Jedi returning, but still rarer than the OLD REPUBLIC.
Bottom line the Jedi situation shows how screwed up SOE's planning was for this IP and this MMO. Nuff said.
I don't play MMORPGs for parity. In a traditional MMORPG you essentialy trade time invested for character advancement. This seems natural to me, and is part of the appeal of the genre for my taste. There should be some characters more powerful than others, and I don't even mind if that stronger person isn't me.
There is a way to put player Jedi in and allow them to be alpha while keeping them rare at the same time; but it wouldn't be as graceful as the "organic" systems were (at least on paper, the realities turned out to be a mess).
It's too late now of course. The Jedi exist in unbelievable numbers and contribute to a host of other timeline-fracturing additions to the product. It just wouldn't be fair to try to make them rare at this point.
Along with the NGE, they should have shifted the time line back to between Ep. III and IV, giving themselves more breathing room to explain hordes of PC Jedi everywhere. It would have required some content changes, but I don't think those changes would have been undoable.
hey in cu my template could beat a lot of jedi (of coure more killed me than i killed)
Originally posted by Obraik
Jedia re by no means weak, they can still run, cloak, block all blaster damage, heal for 10k and cure DoTs. But unlike the first few months where Jedi and BH were the only professions with expertise, a Jedi now has to think of the best way to use these abilities rather then just bursting in and hitting with everything you have. I see a number of Jedi on my server that have done this and are very good at it. Jedi however are no longer an alpha profession,so you can't expect them to be able to beat all professions now.
you say that Jedi can block all blaster damage with the saber block right, well let me know when they are able to use saber block to block lava cannons!?
I know for sure all non-heavy weapons are blocked by saber block. I'ver heard mixed reports on if it works with heavies though, I thought it did but since then I've heard others say it doesn't.
Personally, I think it shouldn't. How do you block a rocket that explodes on impact? A stream of Acid? Lava? Flames?
Comments
Man when did they start letting you do that, block lava cannon gun I mean and man what server do you play on
Correction most people who were playing just before NGE.People keep forgetting the original first exodus shortly after the story was ripped to bits with jedis running around naboo.
This people wish jedis never came and tampered with the story arc at all.The only reason this crowd was not so missed was because they left and new folks who were jedi inclined came in to fill their shoes.
In NGE case had the old jedi crowd been replaced it would not be so noticeable.But it was not.Ofc this forum will still be a haven no matter what for the "jedi" crowd .You know why?Because they are professional whiners.Before the jedi appeared and got all the changes they wanted to be fruitful and multiply the SWG jedi forum was a spam troll heaven.Pretty much like the "veteran" refuge.To me the real veterans will and always shall be the original crowd who cared about the amazing story line of star wars.
Amen. That is the real solution to the issue. Player Jedi should never have been an option. Somebody in marketing probably forced it on the developers that told them you have to have Jedi as an option to sell boxes.
But if you are going to have them in game they have to be both rare and reflective of power of even the untrained jedi had, which was considerable compared to non-jedi. SOE got the power part right, just not the rarity. They wimped out and gave in.
But even in the late days of the CU it was possible to salvage the situation. Grinding Jedi were alway in hiding and if we went showing off their power in public, we paid for. They just need to have some mechanic for to encourge the full template jedi to be similarly in hiding. So while there wouldn't be actually rarity to the level that was really needed, there could have been at least perceived rarity. That plus fixing the methods that made village grinding much easier would have done the trick.
The CU is really what made the Jedi situation horribe. The inability to effectively grind solo foced grinding Jedi out into the public. Once you had a bunch of visibility anyway from group grinding, there was no incentive to stay hidden so you lost the preceived rarity.
If SOE/LA really cared about making SWG an inconic Star Warsy, they would remove player Jedi as an option all together. I mean they have already destroyed their credibility anyway, what more harm could it cause. At least the game would be closer to the movies.
Back when Star Wars Galaxies was known as just Star Wars-Online in 2001/2002 the word was that Jedi wasn't going to be a playable class in the game. Both Raph Koster, SOE and LA said that Jedi would be 'unbalanced' in an MMO and too powerful. However there was alot of Players saying Jedi should be in the game, and that they wouldn't play it without Jedi. So really someone (my bet would be someone at LA) desided to give in and put Jedi in the game.I knew that would be the first big missake of SWG. The Perma-Death idea was good, however I knew that would change sometime in the first year. Granted you'll have Players like Role Players or the like who will work on there Jedi's and keep them hidden. But well, look at alot of MMO Players. When they get that powerful (class, weapon, armor) the first thing they will do is run around with it out and well in this case that got them killed... Hell I can see the first kiddie getting Jedi, running around Theed with his Saber out and laughing about how great he is. Before a Bounty Hunter came up and capped him.... He was most likely on the fourms after that screaming about how 'unfair' the system was. Hey sorry I played Ultima Online from 98 till 2004, I've seen stupid things...
Really there was no way around the Jedi stuff in game. Pre-CU or CU it would have gotten out of hand more slowly then anything. Infact I feel Alpha Jedi was one of the big pushs for the NGE. Still I think Jedi fits in with the game more so now then it did before. If you look and think about it the big Jedi heroes (Obi, the Skywalkers, Yoda) had to be powerful... They are the big heroes of the movies and books. Other Jedi did get killed in battle, or when facing off a highly trained foe.
who is this guy?You mate are amazing !
Finally someone else who actually followed this game from pre-alpha like i did.
Indeed like i posted somewhere before the inclusion of jedi was actually advocated and posted on the site by a LA employee.Strangly enough pre launch LA staff was very vocal and in some posts you really had the impression LA had SoE leash.
The exclusion of jedi espically in this time frame was strongly opposed by 2 now ex SoE developers.Both left even before the game was ready for test.
Ofc now we see the "I hate SoE" mob mentality.But like all midless mobs they have zero knowledge of history.
Its refreshing on this forum to actually meet someone with proper knowledge of the history of SWG.
well the thing is that there are Jedi now and alot of them! So maybe they should redo the game and put it in a diffrent time line, one that fits and explian why there are so many running around. A time line like when Luke is the Jedi master and finding all the stray Jedi and giving them there rightful training. I don't know really I'm just trying to take a stab at something that might make the game fun for me again.
Lowca server
Elder Jedi
Elder MTK/Swordsman/Medic
I'm not seeing as many Jedi that I used to since the expertise for other professions came out.
I think some of the players, myself included, wanted to try Jedi because of not being able to complete the village phases before the NGE hit.
It was ok for awhile but I missed being what I was pre-NGE.
Amen. That is the real solution to the issue. Player Jedi should never have been an option. Somebody in marketing probably forced it on the developers that told them you have to have Jedi as an option to sell boxes.
But if you are going to have them in game they have to be both rare and reflective of power of even the untrained jedi had, which was considerable compared to non-jedi. SOE got the power part right, just not the rarity. They wimped out and gave in.
But even in the late days of the CU it was possible to salvage the situation. Grinding Jedi were alway in hiding and if we went showing off their power in public, we paid for. They just need to have some mechanic for to encourge the full template jedi to be similarly in hiding. So while there wouldn't be actually rarity to the level that was really needed, there could have been at least perceived rarity. That plus fixing the methods that made village grinding much easier would have done the trick.
The CU is really what made the Jedi situation horribe. The inability to effectively grind solo foced grinding Jedi out into the public. Once you had a bunch of visibility anyway from group grinding, there was no incentive to stay hidden so you lost the preceived rarity.
If SOE/LA really cared about making SWG an inconic Star Warsy, they would remove player Jedi as an option all together. I mean they have already destroyed their credibility anyway, what more harm could it cause. At least the game would be closer to the movies.
Back when Star Wars Galaxies was known as just Star Wars-Online in 2001/2002 the word was that Jedi wasn't going to be a playable class in the game. Both Raph Koster, SOE and LA said that Jedi would be 'unbalanced' in an MMO and too powerful. However there was alot of Players saying Jedi should be in the game, and that they wouldn't play it without Jedi. So really someone (my bet would be someone at LA) desided to give in and put Jedi in the game.I knew that would be the first big missake of SWG. The Perma-Death idea was good, however I knew that would change sometime in the first year. Granted you'll have Players like Role Players or the like who will work on there Jedi's and keep them hidden. But well, look at alot of MMO Players. When they get that powerful (class, weapon, armor) the first thing they will do is run around with it out and well in this case that got them killed... Hell I can see the first kiddie getting Jedi, running around Theed with his Saber out and laughing about how great he is. Before a Bounty Hunter came up and capped him.... He was most likely on the fourms after that screaming about how 'unfair' the system was. Hey sorry I played Ultima Online from 98 till 2004, I've seen stupid things...
Really there was no way around the Jedi stuff in game. Pre-CU or CU it would have gotten out of hand more slowly then anything. Infact I feel Alpha Jedi was one of the big pushs for the NGE. Still I think Jedi fits in with the game more so now then it did before. If you look and think about it the big Jedi heroes (Obi, the Skywalkers, Yoda) had to be powerful... They are the big heroes of the movies and books. Other Jedi did get killed in battle, or when facing off a highly trained foe.
who is this guy?You mate are amazing !
Finally someone else who actually followed this game from pre-alpha like i did.
Indeed like i posted somewhere before the inclusion of jedi was actually advocated and posted on the site by a LA employee.Strangly enough pre launch LA staff was very vocal and in some posts you really had the impression LA had SoE leash.
The exclusion of jedi espically in this time frame was strongly opposed by 2 now ex SoE developers.Both left even before the game was ready for test.
Ofc now we see the "I hate SoE" mob mentality.But like all midless mobs they have zero knowledge of history.
Its refreshing on this forum to actually meet someone with proper knowledge of the history of SWG.
Who are you kidding? I was in the Beta and then of course launch... Jedi was told to be a class but hard to reach in beta... in fact (a few devs ran around as them although we never saw a saber)... None the less, the first version of perma death and hard times was the best... I will agree with this and tell you I had the most fun when I unlocked then. BUT from there on out it was sketchy.... Now then, as I was in beta for that and the beta for Jedi going into patch 9 I can sadly tell you that it was going to get worse after that and some of us knew it. As they make things easier , it seems it does not get better. Sure people wanted it as content and the power and feel was fun, but understand the risk vs rewards was harsh too. People forget what it took and how it worked. My pitfalls were just fine and kept in check.. I NEVER had to see one person to have fun, in fact with TEFs and permadeath or skill loss, the last thing you could be was STUPID. That system made sense... sure some people cried, but crap... looking back and seeing what is left now... that was nothing compared to now.
All in all Jedi could have been ketp rare and with harships but this was SOE's idea of fishing for customers.... what better way to get people to play? Hence what you saw happen when the NGE went live with 50000 Jedi ....... in fact it proves the fact that people wanted Jedi, the problem was that the marketing team thought it best to use it as the carrot. Nobody asked for Jedi to be easier.. if anything they wanted it harder in most cases.
Now then as far as the history goes, sure Jedi was not a for sure release-- But as it was said... let's face it Star Wars is largely part Jedi... we all know this. How it was handled was the blunder. Sure LA was more involved then, sure you heard them in beta more--- crap I spent time talking to a shrub or taking orders from one however, I think that people forget that content and that extra effort needed for the class was fun for alot of people. It was magic and a blast for alot of us... the TEF system kept us away from people in the normal sense... due to the fact you were weaker then 10 smart people for sure and back then there was 10 people everywhere you went.
Now the NGE has made Jedi cheap and worse.....empty... the animations, feel and look, not to mention the rareness or enforced hiding due to BH marks and or hunting and loss... There is no purpose for them now. That is the sad part, Jedi was content for alot of people, crafters, harvesters, looters, BH's etc.. now they are just there like the rest..... no loss, no risk, no magic feel of the pink force bar etc.. BUT hey... it's Star Warsy lol.... oh and ICONIC...lol in a Fisher Price, kinda way...lol
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Actually jedi was never even included in the original draft by the verrant(then SoE) team.They got included when 2 key now ex-SoE developers left.Yeah that how long i followed the game even before there was a game to test
Now what did this guys know that the LA devs did not know?They were experienced devs and partially wrote the "bible of MMORPG" and knew alpha classes are a no no in a mmorpg.
You can make them hard to become but end result is people still want to be the all powerful.
I always liked to think SWG had 2 community jedi and others.Others mostly left pre CU.I can vouch for this because on chilastra where i was mainly the 3 top trade association closed their doors(mine had 20 crafters of which all left pre CU) ,RP clubs closed down and many guilds i know fell apart.
It was not noticeable in population because simply put this crowd left and was replaced by jedi crowd who now heard it was ingame.
The game from a MMO sense was dying long ago even before beta.SoE/LA greatest mistake was trying to rectify such an old problem.
Now when the jedi crowd left SWG no one was there to replace them.
Personally i think SoE/LA were stupid enough not to realise that the community that remained wanted only to play a powerful jedi.Not a watered down one.This late effort to balance the game made no sense at all.
Actually jedi was never even included in the original draft by the verrant(then SoE) team.They got included when 2 key now ex-SoE developers left.Yeah that how long i followed the game even before there was a game to test
Now what did this guys know that the LA devs did not know?They were experienced devs and partially wrote the "bible of MMORPG" and knew alpha classes are a no no in a mmorpg.
You can make them hard to become but end result is people still want to be the all powerful.
I always liked to think SWG had 2 community jedi and others.Others mostly left pre CU.I can vouch for this because on chilastra where i was mainly the 3 top trade association closed their doors(mine had 20 crafters of which all left pre CU) ,RP clubs closed down and many guilds i know fell apart.
It was not noticeable in population because simply put this crowd left and was replaced by jedi crowd who now heard it was ingame.
The game from a MMO sense was dying long ago even before beta.SoE/LA greatest mistake was trying to rectify such an old problem.
Now when the jedi crowd left SWG no one was there to replace them.
Personally i think SoE/LA were stupid enough not to realise that the community that remained wanted only to play a powerful jedi.Not a watered down one.This late effort to balance the game made no sense at all.
I think you hit it right on the nose with that one....Ultima Online was kinda the sameway with it's change over from an all PvP game in someways to more of an EQ like game. UO had two Playerbases if you will, one just wanted to hunt, craft and role play in peace. The other wanted to gank the living hell out of the other playerbase cuz for them it was fun. When EQ came out with it's PvP Switch they won that war on the first day, I saw alot of Players just pack up and leave for EQ. As one of my friends put it "I want to play a Knight that go's after monsters and fights the good fight, how can I do that when I have the leet crew of Player Killers running in, killing me and then telling me I'm a newbie."
When UO made that switch over with Trammel, the Player Killer players where upset. Now there game, there prey where leaving to a safe world. They ran onto the fourms and talked about how UO was going to die, how the game should be rolled back to Pre-Trammel, how the change was unfair cuz EA without words told the Pker's in there eyes where to stick it.
In SWG's case you did have two Playerbases. One was made up of Star Wars fans that just wanted a game where they could live out there dreams of being part of the Rebels, or fly a Tie Fighter. The other was just waitting for Jedi or finding out how to be one. Now yes some players wanted to be Jedi not cuz it was 'powerful' but due to the Role Play behind it. Or cuz it was something to shoot for, but really how many of you can truely tell me that everyone was that way? How many players wanted to be Jedi cuz "Jedi is powerful!"
The Playerbase started to leave in the Pre-CU, they saw SWG as a game that was far from ready to come out. A Buddy of mine tired it for a few weeks then went to Final Fantasy 11, he said that the system just didn't feel right for a Sci-Fi Game. And that on his first PvP Outting as a Master Carbineer he was killed in a heartbeat by a Jedi. CU just showed that the game was slowly turning into a Jedi game. The fault of the Jedi system was without Perma-Death in place, and with players who knew how to go out there and grind and not deal with Bounty Hunter's coming after them that they could get that full Jedi Template in no time.
The long term was SOE would have had to made the game much harder. Infact they did, look at the first AI changes to the game. Remember the Bounty Boss Marks that Bounty Hunter's could kill and get good loot off of? The Jedi Players scream that it was unfair and it was too easy for the Bounty Hunter's who now where picking up those AA/CA's with mods to Jedi skills. AI change comes in and most Bounty Hunters got wasted by a boss mark. ToOW, almost every quest I went and did I ended up needing a Jedi to help with. They could blow right past the Jedi MOB's or high level MOB's, most of them came out and said it "I could solo this if I wanted too."
That's just one of the things bring about the downfall of SWG. I even hear guildmates tell me today "I'm a Jedi, I should not get beat by a Bounty Hunter or Smuggler or Commando. And a Medic shouldn't even touch me!" Much like UO that had Player Killing for two years, SWG had an Alpha Class for Two years and no one wants to give that class up.
Actually jedi was never even included in the original draft by the verrant(then SoE) team.They got included when 2 key now ex-SoE developers left.Yeah that how long i followed the game even before there was a game to test
Now what did this guys know that the LA devs did not know?They were experienced devs and partially wrote the "bible of MMORPG" and knew alpha classes are a no no in a mmorpg.
You can make them hard to become but end result is people still want to be the all powerful.
I always liked to think SWG had 2 community jedi and others.Others mostly left pre CU.I can vouch for this because on chilastra where i was mainly the 3 top trade association closed their doors(mine had 20 crafters of which all left pre CU) ,RP clubs closed down and many guilds i know fell apart.
It was not noticeable in population because simply put this crowd left and was replaced by jedi crowd who now heard it was ingame.
The game from a MMO sense was dying long ago even before beta.SoE/LA greatest mistake was trying to rectify such an old problem.
Now when the jedi crowd left SWG no one was there to replace them.
Personally i think SoE/LA were stupid enough not to realise that the community that remained wanted only to play a powerful jedi.Not a watered down one.This late effort to balance the game made no sense at all.
I think you hit it right on the nose with that one....Ultima Online was kinda the sameway with it's change over from an all PvP game in someways to more of an EQ like game. UO had two Playerbases if you will, one just wanted to hunt, craft and role play in peace. The other wanted to gank the living hell out of the other playerbase cuz for them it was fun. When EQ came out with it's PvP Switch they won that war on the first day, I saw alot of Players just pack up and leave for EQ. As one of my friends put it "I want to play a Knight that go's after monsters and fights the good fight, how can I do that when I have the leet crew of Player Killers running in, killing me and then telling me I'm a newbie."
When UO made that switch over with Trammel, the Player Killer players where upset. Now there game, there prey where leaving to a safe world. They ran onto the fourms and talked about how UO was going to die, how the game should be rolled back to Pre-Trammel, how the change was unfair cuz EA without words told the Pker's in there eyes where to stick it.
In SWG's case you did have two Playerbases. One was made up of Star Wars fans that just wanted a game where they could live out there dreams of being part of the Rebels, or fly a Tie Fighter. The other was just waitting for Jedi or finding out how to be one. Now yes some players wanted to be Jedi not cuz it was 'powerful' but due to the Role Play behind it. Or cuz it was something to shoot for, but really how many of you can truely tell me that everyone was that way? How many players wanted to be Jedi cuz "Jedi is powerful!"
The Playerbase started to leave in the Pre-CU, they saw SWG as a game that was far from ready to come out. A Buddy of mine tired it for a few weeks then went to Final Fantasy 11, he said that the system just didn't feel right for a Sci-Fi Game. And that on his first PvP Outting as a Master Carbineer he was killed in a heartbeat by a Jedi. CU just showed that the game was slowly turning into a Jedi game. The fault of the Jedi system was without Perma-Death in place, and with players who knew how to go out there and grind and not deal with Bounty Hunter's coming after them that they could get that full Jedi Template in no time.
The long term was SOE would have had to made the game much harder. Infact they did, look at the first AI changes to the game. Remember the Bounty Boss Marks that Bounty Hunter's could kill and get good loot off of? The Jedi Players scream that it was unfair and it was too easy for the Bounty Hunter's who now where picking up those AA/CA's with mods to Jedi skills. AI change comes in and most Bounty Hunters got wasted by a boss mark. ToOW, almost every quest I went and did I ended up needing a Jedi to help with. They could blow right past the Jedi MOB's or high level MOB's, most of them came out and said it "I could solo this if I wanted too."
That's just one of the things bring about the downfall of SWG. I even hear guildmates tell me today "I'm a Jedi, I should not get beat by a Bounty Hunter or Smuggler or Commando. And a Medic shouldn't even touch me!" Much like UO that had Player Killing for two years, SWG had an Alpha Class for Two years and no one wants to give that class up.
The whole history of how SOE handled the Jedi situation just shows how SOE screwed with this IP and MMO. There should have been NO JEDI AT ALL IN SWG. Period. Only Yoda and Obi-Wan were around. And they were in hiding. And Darth and Palpatine don't count because most of the galaxy didn't know what the Sith were.
Now when NGE, came out SOE screwed up again (I personally think the whole NGE was a screwup but that's a discussion I'd rather not have again for the 1000000000 time). Making Jedi a player class for everyone was a ploy to try and retain the vet players. It failed.
These are just two of the reasons I think LE should just pull the IP out from under SOE and make a new Star Wars MMO. One set in either the Old Republic (Jedi galore) or the New Republic (Luke's time--Jedi, but not as much as in the Old Republic). Bottom line is Jedi should be RARE, no matter what time period.
OLD REPUBLIC--rare, but enough to help police the galaxy (not an entire planet of noobs running around thinking they are jedi)
GALACTIC CIVIL WAR ERA-non existent. The 4 sitll in existence are basically not even know as Jedi by the majority of the Galaxy.
NEW REPUBLIC-Jedi returning, but still rarer than the OLD REPUBLIC.
Bottom line the Jedi situation shows how screwed up SOE's planning was for this IP and this MMO. Nuff said.
Professions less powerful than Jedi: Creature Handler, Ranger, Teras Kasi Master, Bio-Engineer
Those are the ones off the top of my head.
Seriously though, I bet Jedi are stronger than Officer.
I still see Jedi take out 2 or more players at a time.
Then there are Jedi who can't take out one at a time. It just depends on tactics etc
I don't play MMORPGs for parity. In a traditional MMORPG you essentialy trade time invested for character advancement. This seems natural to me, and is part of the appeal of the genre for my taste. There should be some characters more powerful than others, and I don't even mind if that stronger person isn't me.
There is a way to put player Jedi in and allow them to be alpha while keeping them rare at the same time; but it wouldn't be as graceful as the "organic" systems were (at least on paper, the realities turned out to be a mess).
It's too late now of course. The Jedi exist in unbelievable numbers and contribute to a host of other timeline-fracturing additions to the product. It just wouldn't be fair to try to make them rare at this point.
Along with the NGE, they should have shifted the time line back to between Ep. III and IV, giving themselves more breathing room to explain hordes of PC Jedi everywhere. It would have required some content changes, but I don't think those changes would have been undoable.
SWG Team Mtg.
hey in cu my template could beat a lot of jedi
(of coure more killed me than i killed)
I know for sure all non-heavy weapons are blocked by saber block. I'ver heard mixed reports on if it works with heavies though, I thought it did but since then I've heard others say it doesn't.
Personally, I think it shouldn't. How do you block a rocket that explodes on impact? A stream of Acid? Lava? Flames?