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Listen, this is the low-down on VG...
Grachus
Member Posts: 5
So I've been toying with the idea of buying Vanguard after having tried the beta. I've been reading forum posts to flesh out my decision, and I've come to realize that this game really does lack in a lot of ways.
My background: I've played UO, EQ, DAOC, WOW, EVE -- hell -- I even played the old D&D online on TEN. Currently I'm playing WOW casually and a lot of EVE.
Here's the problem with Vanguard, in a nutshell: It promised a lot, and delivered very little.
I remember reading about the Diplomacy track and how important it was going to be for quests, character development, etc. I was excited. It was something that appealed to me as I get tired, quickly, of the same old hack and slash in MMORPGs. What was delivered for diplomacy? A mediocre - at best - card game with crappy graphics and very little integration into the broader world. Fun? Sure, I guess. What was promised? Not really.
People speak of Vanguard's world as being so large and immersive, but I don't see it. It reminds of me of the same old Everquest city with tons of NPCs that I have no reason to care about or talk to. The world itself is like a big children's diorama without any real depth, personality, or purpose.
And much, much more:
-- No purpose to post-level cap gameplay (at least WOW has arenas)
-- No integration of Diplomacy into major adventuring quests, from what I can see
-- Poor graphics (clipping, "moonwalking", poor animations, poor spell graphics -- I'm on a mid-range system x2 4400+, 7800 GTx, 2GB RAM, expected more in terms of graphics)
-- Classes that feel "hackneyed". There's nothing less exciting to see your first skills all be lame iterations of each other (ie., Monk -- all just plain damage through level 14... WHT!?)
The reality of this game is this: It's like that chick who looks hot, but then you get up close, and you realize she's covered in stretch marks and acne. Getting into Vanguard give me this same, "Oh shit!" moment when you finally see what's going on.
I'm not a hater; I don't think the game is awful. It's just not good, and that's the problem for most people. With so much hype, talent, and time behind this game -- how did it turn out to be so mediocre?? Other games out there provide a much more fun, exciting time:
-- WOW is, despite all it's hate, polished, clean, fun -- you can go play for an hour and have a GOOD time.
-- EVE is, despite all it's hate, a big virtual sandbox that leaves people room to explore
-- Guild Wars is, despite all it's hate, the best PvP game in existence
-- EQ is, at this point, a much better game than Vanguard
So there you have it. Where does VG succeed? Customers have a choice of an easy, smooth MMO (WOW), sandbox MMO (EVE), PvP MMO (GW), and "classic" (EQ). Where does VG fit in? I don't even see the "nitsch" people are talking about.
My two cents,
Enjoy!
My background: I've played UO, EQ, DAOC, WOW, EVE -- hell -- I even played the old D&D online on TEN. Currently I'm playing WOW casually and a lot of EVE.
Here's the problem with Vanguard, in a nutshell: It promised a lot, and delivered very little.
I remember reading about the Diplomacy track and how important it was going to be for quests, character development, etc. I was excited. It was something that appealed to me as I get tired, quickly, of the same old hack and slash in MMORPGs. What was delivered for diplomacy? A mediocre - at best - card game with crappy graphics and very little integration into the broader world. Fun? Sure, I guess. What was promised? Not really.
People speak of Vanguard's world as being so large and immersive, but I don't see it. It reminds of me of the same old Everquest city with tons of NPCs that I have no reason to care about or talk to. The world itself is like a big children's diorama without any real depth, personality, or purpose.
And much, much more:
-- No purpose to post-level cap gameplay (at least WOW has arenas)
-- No integration of Diplomacy into major adventuring quests, from what I can see
-- Poor graphics (clipping, "moonwalking", poor animations, poor spell graphics -- I'm on a mid-range system x2 4400+, 7800 GTx, 2GB RAM, expected more in terms of graphics)
-- Classes that feel "hackneyed". There's nothing less exciting to see your first skills all be lame iterations of each other (ie., Monk -- all just plain damage through level 14... WHT!?)
The reality of this game is this: It's like that chick who looks hot, but then you get up close, and you realize she's covered in stretch marks and acne. Getting into Vanguard give me this same, "Oh shit!" moment when you finally see what's going on.
I'm not a hater; I don't think the game is awful. It's just not good, and that's the problem for most people. With so much hype, talent, and time behind this game -- how did it turn out to be so mediocre?? Other games out there provide a much more fun, exciting time:
-- WOW is, despite all it's hate, polished, clean, fun -- you can go play for an hour and have a GOOD time.
-- EVE is, despite all it's hate, a big virtual sandbox that leaves people room to explore
-- Guild Wars is, despite all it's hate, the best PvP game in existence
-- EQ is, at this point, a much better game than Vanguard
So there you have it. Where does VG succeed? Customers have a choice of an easy, smooth MMO (WOW), sandbox MMO (EVE), PvP MMO (GW), and "classic" (EQ). Where does VG fit in? I don't even see the "nitsch" people are talking about.
My two cents,
Enjoy!
Comments
Maybe you remember when wow was released, i never played it but all friends who did only whined on lag and bad performance. But now it must be rather ok.. says 8 million people.
So I have eno doubt Vanguard will grow and work out very good.
Edit: Correct me if i'm wrong but is not PvP in gw max 8 vs. 8? And that is in my opinion terrible.
WoW had lag because it was so popular that the servers were flooded players. I'm thinking VG isn't having the same issue. WoW was feature complete with more quests than you could complete with one character. To compare WoW's technical achievements to VG is like comparing Saturn to a brick.
As to the GW assesement of PvP, I agree and that's why I don't play it even though I own the game and there is no monthly fee.
My thoughts exactly but you are a much better Writer than I am. Vanguard is certainly not a terrible game but in comparison to the others, the only one that it is close to is the original EQ1. EQ1 is much more fun and contains the "challenge" that lacks in more modern MMORPGs such as WoW and EQ2.
I also understand that we put a lot of time in these games and the Vanguards Fans are protective of their game. However, put the game in the proper perspective and you will get the people playing the current EQ1 to play your game. It can replace EQ1 for that spot in the genre. It does not compete with WoW or EQ2. That is like comparing Lexus to Jeep. Each get you from A to B but have different purposes.
Also, keep in mind that the first couple of levels are ok but you will soon hit a major brick wall around level 10. I was able to get to 12 during the beta but it was painful. Ask yourself if the performance problems and misc bugs were gone is Vanguard a fun game. For a lot of people the answer will be "Yes". For me it was a huge "No!"
I said , i will not post here..but damn i am to bored at work... lol
Anyway.
Right. Vanguard... Oh well
It is certanly not a bad game at all. It has many performance problems (in my eyes) and that is what i wrote here. (and got attacked for)
But all in all - what is Vanguard? (or rather what will it be)
Vanguard is all we seen up to now in hack & slash MMOs (eq,eq2,wow) - just bigger and better (not there yet but going steady)
If h&s is your thing i am sure Vanguard will be the best, the biggest ...and the last of its kind.
In a year from now when VG will be polished and full of content it will be the bomb, and wow will be history.
But unfortunately people will move to new horisonts -> AOC, WAR ... etc
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
If h&s is your thing i am sure Vanguard will be the best, the biggest ...and the last of its kind.
In a year from now when VG will be polished and full of content it will be the bomb, and wow will be history.
I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't see WoW being history any time soon. It gives the casual gamer something they can pick up and play. It delivers an enjoyable kind of instant grativication that games like Vaguard can't. So until someone makes a better game than WoW that is easy to pick up and play it's going to be around for some time.
That is just a idiodic remark. After saying that, your post is meaningless Sir.
I actually heard about Vanguard from a friend of mine who played a lot of MMO's. He was really excited about the game and what it wanted to deliver. I read through some of the FAQ they posted and it was enough to keep me at least interested. Did I buy into everything they said? Not really. Maybe that's why I wasn't so disappointed when I first started beta. I think everything they said about the game was what they WANTED to do. Realistically speaking though, with limited time, money, and manpower, you simply can't do everything you want to do. I don't think they wanted to lie to their to-be customers... after all, that would only create negative publicity. So my opinion is, I currently enjoy the game, I see a great potential in it, and I think Sigil is a team that wants to realize as much of their games potential as they are able.
See, what you don't like about Vanguard is something I DO like. You can't argue the world is large, it's fact. The immersion is something you do. Ok, so not every NPC gives you quests, and currently, most of them don't move around, but I don't really mind that. In fact, if every npc would give quests, I would hate that... I mean, imagine every person in the real world saying: "hey, you wanna help me out? Go fetch me some water from the pond!" Though schedules for some npcs would be great, I don't think I'd like it for trainers or vendors. Imagine going into the town at night and everyone asleep... what could you do? It's not like YOU can sleep until the morning arrives. Though the unimportant npcs having schedules would definitely be cool, or have them move around.
Now, about everything else. Does it have post-level cap gameplay? Probably not. Did WoW when it started? No, it didn't. I think at most one dungeon for level 60's was out, but that was that... No integration of diplomacy, that can be a double edged sword, with people complaining if it WOULD happen. Suffice it to say, if there's a demand for it from their paying customers, I'm sure Sigil would implement it. Graphics, I find them just fine. It's got its glitches, but what game when it starts doesn't? WoW had a lot of glitches at the beginning too... and hell, it STILL does, I remember two months before I quit sometimes people looked as though they were still on their gryphon when they were moving around. People still freeze in some healing/combat animations. As for they're not 'cool' enough for you, it's opinion, and I happen to enjoy the art style. You don't. It's that simple.
People ALWAYS talk and compare with WoW. WoW isn't a great game. It's Diablo 2, with 40 (or 25 now...) people running a dungeon for loot instead of 1-8 people doing so. All it offers is combat. If you're going to tell me there's 'dedicated crafters' in the game, I'm gonna laugh at you, because one, crafting is incredibly simple in the game, and to get a lot of the good recipes, you HAVE to do dungeon runs. That makes them dedicated to WoW. There's not anyone that just sits in Ironforge and all they do is craft. It's too simplified for that. All WoW has, is combat. Now granted, it's a lot of fun at first, but after playing it for awhile, I personally got bored of it all. Like I said, it's a MMO version of Diablo 2, you have people who do stuff for loot, and with that loot, do harder content. That's exactly what you did in Diablo 2.
Your post carries the problem that a lot of your statements are opinions. There's nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but it's what YOU think, and doesn't mean I'll think it. You are correct, that Vanguard promised a lot, but from reading the faq, they did deliver on some of the things they promised. Some things, they did not. As for the rest of your post, it's all opinion that anyone can argue against or for. That's my two cents.
Trust me when I say AOC will never be big, sure it will be for some ppl, but not for most. It is way too instanced and single player minded. Up until around lvl 15-20 it is basicly just a singleplayer game. The community is going to suck, it is just a different kind of guildwars with different set of rules. Sure it might be a bit better, but it wont hold peoples interest for long.
Warhammer-Online has a better chance, designed by the people behind DAoC which was a pretty big success. They have alot of good ideas, but we have to see them carried out first. The graphics which are in the cartoonish league, might or might not be in their favor, for people who have played WoW it might seem too similiar, although gameplay is not, and for some people who simply hate the cartoonish look, they most likely wont even try it out. That being said, I think it will succeed, weather or not it will big as bg, or bigger than Vanguard or for that sake WoW is hard to tell, but we'll see.
As for Vanguard, I don't see why some people hate it so much. I've played EQ,EQ2 (not much), DAOC, EVE-Online,COH, and World of warcraft where I was in a top raiding guild and had fullt2/t3 when I quit the game. For people like me, who have played numerous mmorpgs, I think most of us find the difficult lvl, and the immersion very low in WoW. I have never liked instances, and don't think it has ever done good for any mmorpg.
That being said, WoW is a GREAT first mmorpg, it is very userfriendly, and very easy to get going. It has also introduced a big number of new mmorpg gamers to the market, who had not tried anything like it before. But I think, within a couple months when TBC gets old, alot of people will want to atleast give Vanguard a try. Weather or not it will able to pull alot of people away from WoW is hard to tell, but I am pretty sure Vanguard will be a succes, and no , you don't need 8 million subscribers to be a success. Wow has EXTREME succes, succes for Vanguard would probably be 500.000, and I see that being made without much of a sweat really, both because they appeal to the veteran mmorpg player, but also because it will appeal to a whole new market, that didn't exist before WoW was lunched.
Just my 2sp
I played in beta as well and made a wood elf ranger and was able to get to lvl 17 while only playing about an average of 3 hours per day for maybe 2 week.
Also please note that i did some work orders (crafting quest from npc's) and did all the Warden of the day diplomacy quest as well as the horse quest. and not once did i find it painfull to lvl or do any of those quests, oh and btw i soloed most of the time except for doing the quest "faking it" (grabing the fish of the gataro's) .
My thoughts exactly but you are a much better Writer than I am. Vanguard is certainly not a terrible game but in comparison to the others, the only one that it is close to is the original EQ1. EQ1 is much more fun and contains the "challenge" that lacks in more modern MMORPGs such as WoW and EQ2.
I also understand that we put a lot of time in these games and the Vanguards Fans are protective of their game. However, put the game in the proper perspective and you will get the people playing the current EQ1 to play your game. It can replace EQ1 for that spot in the genre. It does not compete with WoW or EQ2. That is like comparing Lexus to Jeep. Each get you from A to B but have different purposes.
Also, keep in mind that the first couple of levels are ok but you will soon hit a major brick wall around level 10. I was able to get to 12 during the beta but it was painful. Ask yourself if the performance problems and misc bugs were gone is Vanguard a fun game. For a lot of people the answer will be "Yes". For me it was a huge "No!"
Lets look at things through another perspective. Maybe EQ1 is better than Vanguard, but how many people that started playing MMORPG's recently do you think are going to want to go play a 7+ year old game, with worse graphics, an established community who has done everything and will most likely not want to explore with the newer people, and who are all in large raiding guilds already? I think not many people would want to do that. Even EQ2 has been out long enough to drive newer players away. So Vanguard is the logical choice for anyone wanting to start a new fantasy game, but who also wants the gameplay experience that is like EQ and WoW. But you see WoW just released TBC, which offers a window for new players to come in and experience the game like it just was released, because they offered new races and new starting areas up to level 20. So, for Vanguard is competing for old players who might or might not like their old game better than Vanguard and they are also competing for the newer players who have WoW's TBC, which is well polished to choose from or Vanguard, which demands a beastly machine and is not well polished at all. I see Vanguard taking the same path EQ2 did. It will have a rough start, but will eventually get its groove. Once it has its groove, it will gain more subs and then will plateau like EQ2 has.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Vanguard has the following good points:
Put the performance, server problems, and bugs aside. They will fix those things.
Vanguard has the following good points:
Put the performance, server problems, and bugs aside. They will fix those things.
good post too.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
Im impressed that you can get all of this from a beta test.
WoW is the same repetetive gameplay pre and post expantion with little depth and next to nothing to do at the lvl cap (PvP through BG and more raiding is the same thing they've given us for the past 2 years) but perfect if you don't want to feel like a part of the world.
EVE wasn't my cup of tea, but I played the game itself to make my mind up of that, not the beta
Guild Wars was also not my cup of tea and not an MMO in traditional sence, and again I played the accuall game, not the beta
EQ also wan't what I was looking for, although it did keep my attention for a few months, once again I played the game not the beta
If you want to know what the game is like and don't want to buy it yet, then wait for the reviews to hit the magazines and internet. Giving a halfassed review of a game while it's in beta is like reviewing a movie before it's been fully edited.
Secondly, my other dissapointment is this: I dont think VG will be a WoW killer. im sure pretty much all of you can agree with me...its kinda like trying to take on the beatles or something. WoW is so established, and when that many people are part of something, man theres just no stopping it. i was imagining yesterday while playing BC that they would never have to make a WoW 2. just give us every upgrade to the game for free! keep all ur subscribers! Complete graphic overhaul for the new generation! for free,.,,they should that but im digressing.
On a positive note, that is all i feel that i expected too much on...besides diplomacy, i feel that the game really delivers big time. crafting especially is really really well thought out and alot of fun! im gonna be VG for sure and ill see you all there. we all know mmos are always a work in progress...heres to a bright future for good game. we hope!
WoW is the same repetetive gameplay pre and post expantion with little depth and next to nothing to do at the lvl cap (PvP through BG and more raiding is the same thing they've given us for the past 2 years) but perfect if you don't want to feel like a part of the world.
EVE wasn't my cup of tea, but I played the game itself to make my mind up of that, not the beta
Guild Wars was also not my cup of tea and not an MMO in traditional sence, and again I played the accuall game, not the beta
EQ also wan't what I was looking for, although it did keep my attention for a few months, once again I played the game not the beta
If you want to know what the game is like and don't want to buy it yet, then wait for the reviews to hit the magazines and internet. Giving a halfassed review of a game while it's in beta is like reviewing a movie before it's been fully edited.
i dunno how to get that in a box like all you forum masters....but god what a dark post. why are you even playing these games...you dont like a single one of the games that you mentioned...
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Man I feel for you. I dont know what starting Diplomacy area you were at but you might have gotten short changed.
I got my Diplomacy tutorial in Khal. I was asked to talk to the local merchants about what they do. I found out the local Port Authority is taxing them hard for "protection". I later found out the Port Authority were being paid by the local Lizardmen for information on caravans so they could attack them. There is a few buildings outside of town that housed a preist group trying to get to the bottom of the Port Authority but no one will talk. A woman of the preist group has me find her husband in a bar. I need to convince him to come back home and when I do she thinks he's cheating beacause I tell her he was with another woman. I would not have known 90% of this about the town wthout diplomacy.
Oh, I also had to convince a local stablemaster to let me use a horse to get to another village and deliver goods which opened up other quests.
I know that some people don't want a lot of reading when playing games. I sure would not have when I played EQ but I enjoy it in Vanguard.
Just not worth my time anymore.