XP changes ruled out casual players now

Elikal · February 2007

I hear the XP rates were lowered, first 30% then another 25%. I can not validate this, but it feel about right.

I am aware there are people who feel happy about it, and each to his. I felt the former XP rate should have been raised, not lowered. Vanguard has, due to educated calculations 70,000 - 80,000 players at the moment. Brad McQuaid one said they need at least 250,000 to make profit. Though it is just a guess, I think a vast majority, once they find out about the slow progress will not keep playing. I know that is only what my insight tells me, but I firmly believe this is so.

It is a preferrence, and as that not really debatable, as all kinds of taste. But I want to see progress of my character in an appropriate time, and the current changes just are the last obstacle in a series of maluses this game has. I do not want another EQ1 or Lineage II endless grind. I really don't desire a WOW-ish fast levelling, really not. But this is not what any longer feels as a decend balance between time and progress. I am sorry to say, for VG is a really good game in many aspects. But if this is the final say I will soon quit this game. I want to do quests and explore and maybe try one or two alts and not focus on powergriding to keep a certain feeling of progress. I really dont want to be the uber player, but I want to feel the growth in strength, and that means a certain time-frame must have a certain pay off.

I just inform you of this my standing. I am sorry VG evolves this much into a time consuming game now, but I am not willing to focus my entire spare time on one thing alone to keep up with my personal feeling of a progress. I hope this is not the final word or a real casual server is started ASAP. VG has many good aspects I havent seen in other games, but the price of time VG now demands to pay is beyond what I regard as a reasonable exchange.

PS: I do not like WOW. It is TOO fast and easy. That is not what I desire, but VG now, especially calculating the levelling slowness of the higher levels, is too slow for me now. I had this in the old days, where it was ok, but then was then and now is now. This is a personal expression, and there is no need to "convince" me.

PPS: If I decide to go, my stuff goes to my guildies, so you do not have to ask me if you can have my stuff, should I go.

Celestian · February 2007

I'm curious when VG was advertised as a casual players game? I always thought it was for the "core" people. Isn't that something Brad said at one point?

I'd be surprised if the guys that like corpse runs, no instances and long travel times don't come out and praise this for making the game even more challenging... for them anyway. Personally I see all these as just sinks, not challenges.

beezee · February 2007

If true, it's just another in a long list of disappointments for this game. Keep up the good work guys.

Shoal · February 2007

I agree that having the 'Hardcore' in charge of game design is eventually going to kill any hope that V:SoH has of being a main player in the MMORPG environment.

Expect the Hardcore to continue to have their way for say another 3 months. By that time, SoE will detect that there is really no player base available to support a major MMORPG of this type. Then, the inevitable pressure from SoE to do an 'NGE' / 'CU' type modification to V:SoH to make it more player friendly. Just like they have done with EQ2 and SWG.

However, by that time, it will be far, far to late to salvage the subscription base. Once a player tries the game and feels it is not his/her type of game, well, that's pretty much it for that Subscription. They will just go back to their previous fun game and wait for the next offering.

So, bottom line, it is to late for V:SoH to be successful. Released a year to soon, with to many defects, not enough content, to Hardcore, not enough fun, not enough sound, not enough animation, dead towns, empty vistas, Zones (named 'Chunks' here so they can say they don't have 'Zones'), and so forth.

However, I am happy that there is a place for the 'Hardcore' gamer to go. I wish them well and hope they have a great time and stay with V:SoH for a long, long, long time.

Good Hunting

JelloB2000 · February 2007

Anyone have any hard numbers on xp changes?
(For example xp per mob compared to xp for level).

Jori · February 2007

I'm not surprised in the least. As for them reaching 250,000, I have no doubt that they will get that or close to it. Look at all the people that played Lineage II, hell look at all the people that STILL play Lineage II even with all the botters and farmers. People like what they like and this game was intended to lure in a niche fanbase. Perhaps this game just isn't for you. There are a LOT of people who don't have the massive amounts of time to give to MMO games anymore.

I remember staying up all night, falling asleep at my computer while camping mobs/items in EQ. Not sleeping for two days because I HAD to have IT! I can't do that anymore and yet there will always be people who can. Play or wait for a game that works with your schedule. It isn't the end of the world...I don't think.

Elikal · February 2007

Casual, core, hardcore... those are words. People are no categories and everone will define those different. I dont want to argue over that. Sure, a person *can* play any MMO no matter how little time he has. But every person has a limit where the slowness will be too slow, when he is bound too long to the same level of power and the same mobs to kill. It is, as someone rightfully said, not a challange over a certain point, but merely a timesink.

Mrbloodworth · February 2007

Originally posted by Elikal

Casual, core, hardcore... those are words. People are no categories and everone will define those different. I dont want to argue over that. Sure, a person *can* play any MMO no matter how little time he has. But every person has a limit where the slowness will be too slow, when he is bound too long to the same level of power and the same mobs to kill. It is, as someone rightfully said, not a challange over a certain point, but merely a timesink.

well said.

mehhem · February 2007

Originally posted by Shoal

I agree that having the 'Hardcore' in charge of game design is eventually going to kill any hope that V:SoH has of being a main player in the MMORPG environment.
However, I am happy that there is a place for the 'Hardcore' gamer to go. I wish them well and hope they have a great time and stay with V:SoH for a long, long, long time.
Good Hunting

I think from the ground up it was designed to be for the "core" players. I've played both, from SWG, CoH/V, WoW, Eve, EQ2. All have different styles of play, easy and hard, I like both. I currently I play CoX for the lazy playtime and now Vanguard for when I have lots of free time to really get into the game, lore, combat. Thats what is so fun to me about a new game is its "newness". Sure I had a great time playing WoW but after 2 lvl 60 chars, one horde, one alliance, I can't get another alt past lvl 30. It just kills me to do it. So I think that for most people there is a "core" player in all of us. You just need to become bored with whatever you are playing currently.

Aeronis · February 2007

Originally posted by Celestian

I'd be surprised if the guys that like corpse runs, no instances and long travel times don't come out and praise this for making the game even more challenging... for them anyway. Personally I see all these as just sinks, not challenges.

All three of those are challenges, no sinks, and I prefer it that way.

-Corpse runs add more risk to death, and challenge to recovering your stuff. It's a contrast to some other MMORPGs where death has about as much sting as dying in a round of Counterstrike.

-I have always hated instances - This is a MMORPG. I like encoutering people in dungeons or out in the open. If I wanted all the content spoon fed to me in personal instances I would play Guild Wars.

-I love huge worlds where travel is organic. The world feels disjointed and unconnected when you can go anywhere in minutes by teleporting from one town to another.

As for the EXP rate, I don't mind leveling being slow if there is enough content to go with the pace.

shae · February 2007

From my understanding, and please someone correct me if i'm wrong on this one, is that the most recent experience earning "fix" came about after the last beta patch where we saw experience comming in at a very increased rate. Almost all the feedback that was comming from website forums was comming back as bad, experience was going way to fast.

As a result of this feeback the Sigil boys decided to find a happy medium between the two and so far, it seems to be working. Either way, while it's not as fast as it was, it's by no means as slow as it was back in beta 3 for example.

I also think something needs to be said in terms of not blowing things out of proportion. Of course you can voice your oppinion and dissaproval but if we bitch about absolutely everything, things that are genuinely BAD with the game are going to get overlooked.

themonk · February 2007

If the game is indeed focused for hardcore gamers, I have to ask (from a business standpoint) whether there are enough of those gamers (who aren't playing other games atm) to reach the 250k mark. From the classical bell-curve standpoint, it seems to me any game at this time needs to expand its player base, not restrict it.

Just my two cents.

beezee · February 2007

Originally posted by Shoal

I agree that having the 'Hardcore' in charge of game design is eventually going to kill any hope that V:SoH has of being a main player in the MMORPG environment.
Expect the Hardcore to continue to have their way for say another 3 months. By that time, SoE will detect that there is really no player base available to support a major MMORPG of this type. Then, the inevitable pressure from SoE to do an 'NGE' / 'CU' type modification to V:SoH to make it more player friendly. Just like they have done with EQ2 and SWG.
However, by that time, it will be far, far to late to salvage the subscription base. Once a player tries the game and feels it is not his/her type of game, well, that's pretty much it for that Subscription. They will just go back to their previous fun game and wait for the next offering.
So, bottom line, it is to late for V:SoH to be successful. Released a year to soon, with to many defects, not enough content, to Hardcore, not enough fun, not enough sound, not enough animation, dead towns, empty vistas, Zones (named 'Chunks' here so they can say they don't have 'Zones'), and so forth.
However, I am happy that there is a place for the 'Hardcore' gamer to go. I wish them well and hope they have a great time and stay with V:SoH for a long, long, long time.
Good Hunting

Yeah Shoal, I agree with your sentiment entirely. Once again if true, it boggles the mind as to why the devs would take this direction. I would think they would want to do the opposite. Start with a slightly more casual approach to build the up the subs, then as the game develops and more content is added and the bugs are cleared up and performance issues tweaked, then slowly increase the difficulty factor to appease the Hcore fans. What they're doing now seems counter productive IMO.

Rattrap · February 2007

Originally posted by Jori

I'm not surprised in the least. As for them reaching 250,000, I have no doubt that they will get that or close to it. Look at all the people that played Lineage II, hell look at all the people that STILL play Lineage II even with all the botters and farmers. People like what they like and this game was intended to lure in a niche fanbase. Perhaps this game just isn't for you. There are a LOT of people who don't have the massive amounts of time to give to MMO games anymore.

I remember staying up all night, falling asleep at my computer while camping mobs/items in EQ. Not sleeping for two days because I HAD to have IT! I can't do that anymore and yet there will always be people who can. Play or wait for a game that works with your schedule. It isn't the end of the world...I don't think.

You forget that Lineage 2 is PVP game. While Vsoh is basically PVE game.

PVE game is for people that like to socialise and explore. PVP is for achievers

Long and tedious grind is also for achievers... So Vanguard brings opposite apeals.

I have nothing against reaching end game slowly. Actually i think there should not be end game at all (like in eve or ryzom)

But making end game further away but simply making leveling more of a grind is terrible solution.

Because lets face it , it is boring!

Neither you gain no new skills , nor you can really explore ... so it is either grind or more grind the same area for weeks

Aeronis · February 2007

Originally posted by themonk

If the game is indeed focused for hardcore gamers, I have to ask (from a business standpoint) whether there are enough of those gamers (who aren't playing other games atm) to reach the 250k mark. From the classical bell-curve standpoint, it seems to me any game at this time needs to expand its player base, not restrict it.

Just my two cents.

There's plenty of gamers out there who are looking for a more challenging and classic MMORPG experience (but with modern advances).

In today's MMORPG market you have to carve out a niche to succeed. Because if you try to make the game that tries to horn in on WoW subscribers then you're just going to end up with a game that pleases no one in particular.

KorovaMB · February 2007

Originally posted by Aeronis

Originally posted by Celestian

I'd be surprised if the guys that like corpse runs, no instances and long travel times don't come out and praise this for making the game even more challenging... for them anyway. Personally I see all these as just sinks, not challenges.

All three of those are challenges, no sinks, and I prefer it that way.

-Corpse runs add more risk to death, and challenge to recovering your stuff. It's a contrast to some other MMORPGs where death has about as much sting as dying in a round of Counterstrike.

-I have always hated instances - This is a MMORPG. I like encoutering people in dungeons or out in the open. If I wanted all the content spoon fed to me in personal instances I would play Guild Wars.

-I love huge worlds where travel is organic. The world feels disjointed and unconnected when you can go anywhere in minutes by teleporting from one town to another.

As for the EXP rate, I don't mind leveling being slow if there is enough content to go with the pace.

Well said. Besides, if corpse runs are that much of a time sink to you, then you are dying too much.

As for long travel times, the caravan system was put in place so you could log in where your friends are. What I wouldnt want to see is a bunch of insta-porters. It just makes the game feel small when devs do that.

As for the XP nerf, I expect the devs are still tweaking to ensure the right leveling curve. It still may change again. For me, I am comfortable where it is at. Perhaps it will cause people to spend more time playing in a given zone, versus leveling at a speed in which they miss alot of things in a zone.

Damienvr666 · February 2007

I would ask who on this thread acctually play vanguard?

I do. I am almost level 20 adventurer, 10 tradeskiller and a 54 skill in diplomacy.

The exp is still coming in failry quickly. As exp for quests is where your leveling exp will mainly come from. Mob kill exp is minimal compared to quest exp. Course, the best exp that I have found is questing in a dungeon in a group. The mobs give better exp and the quests give more exp.

Vanguard is designed to be a challenge it does not hold your hand. It is def not for everyone. And yet at the same time everyone could play VG and have a good time.

Fun is what matters. Not leveling to max in the shortest amount of time. There is SO much to see and do in this game it's unreal.

Thethrax · February 2007

XP is caculated based on where you are in the level tree compared to the average level on the server. Grind away because itl get u nowhere! Best game ever.

KorovaMB · February 2007

Originally posted by themonk

If the game is indeed focused for hardcore gamers, I have to ask (from a business standpoint) whether there are enough of those gamers (who aren't playing other games atm) to reach the 250k mark. From the classical bell-curve standpoint, it seems to me any game at this time needs to expand its player base, not restrict it.

Just my two cents.

There certainly are enough looking for a hardcore game. Virtually every recent game, as well as most on the horizon are geared to a less "hardcore" gamer. Producing a game that is geared toward casual play would put Vanguard head-to-head with alot of other competitors. It is usually a better business practice to identify what is needed in the market place, and produce that. That way, you fill a vacuum which ensures sales.

WaRGaMeS · February 2007

We'd all be better off if SOE didn't *#$% up SWG in the first place, but they did , so here we are, or at least me. But i agree as well, this core standpoint appeal might not last, or it will do amazing and will attract those who never thought they coudl be a core player. WE will see.

themonk · February 2007

Thank you for the reply, Aeronis. I guess what I'm asking is whether that niche will entail 250k people.

Sorry, KorovaMB - -I didn't see your post before I wrote the above.

Kyleran · February 2007

Originally posted by themonk

Thank you for the reply, Aeronis. I guess what I'm asking is whether that niche will entail 250k people.

Sorry, KorovaMB - -I didn't see your post before I wrote the above.

Thats the real question isn't it? Or maybe the word gamble is more appropriate. Well, they've taken their shot, for better or worse..and we'll have to wait 6 mo to a year to find out the results.

Areel · February 2007

The reasons for the XP change are simple. First, even with the lack of polish in the low level areas, it's even less polished and balanced in the high-end areas. They don't want people going there until they've had a chance to work on it. Second, they forgot that even in a crowd of hardcore players, there are some "HARDCORE" players. People already at 30? They probably aren't happy about that, after saying how long it should take to level up. So, in an attempt to curb the upward march of those with endless playtime, they are also punishing those that were playing normally. They'll turn what might have been a fluid leveling progress, into a cheap grind, a timesink with no purpose otther than to slow people down.

Crueak · February 2007

Originally posted by Elikal

I hear the XP rates were lowered, first 30% then another 25%. I can not validate this, but it feel about right.
I am aware there are people who feel happy about it, and each to his. I felt the former XP rate should have been raised, not lowered. Vanguard has, due to educated calculations 70,000 - 80,000 players at the moment. Brad McQuaid one said they need at least 250,000 to make profit. Though it is just a guess, I think a vast majority, once they find out about the slow progress will not keep playing. I know that is only what my insight tells me, but I firmly believe this is so.
It is a preferrence, and as that not really debatable, as all kinds of taste. But I want to see progress of my character in an appropriate time, and the current changes just are the last obstacle in a series of maluses this game has. I do not want another EQ1 or Lineage II endless grind. I really don't desire a WOW-ish fast levelling, really not. But this is not what any longer feels as a decend balance between time and progress. I am sorry to say, for VG is a really good game in many aspects. But if this is the final say I will soon quit this game. I want to do quests and explore and maybe try one or two alts and not focus on powergriding to keep a certain feeling of progress. I really dont want to be the uber player, but I want to feel the growth in strength, and that means a certain time-frame must have a certain pay off.
I just inform you of this my standing. I am sorry VG evolves this much into a time consuming game now, but I am not willing to focus my entire spare time on one thing alone to keep up with my personal feeling of a progress. I hope this is not the final word or a real casual server is started ASAP. VG has many good aspects I havent seen in other games, but the price of time VG now demands to pay is beyond what I regard as a reasonable exchange.

PS: I do not like WOW. It is TOO fast and easy. That is not what I desire, but VG now, especially calculating the levelling slowness of the higher levels, is too slow for me now. I had this in the old days, where it was ok, but then was then and now is now. This is a personal expression, and there is no need to "convince" me.

PPS: If I decide to go, my stuff goes to my guildies, so you do not have to ask me if you can have my stuff, should I go.

Unless i'm mistaken and i haven't seen the relative patch notes to what you say, but last i saw in beta they RAISED xp gain percentage by 20% not decreased it. also just to point out i believe brad said if they got 250k subscribers they would be extremely happy, not that they need 250k just to break even and make a profit, i believe if they get around 150k to 200 they'll be breaking even.

As far a subscribers go i throw out WoW as a exception to the rule, I'm not a fan of world of warcraft but i believe no other game will ever get 8 million subscribers anytime soon. Most game designers design for a few years in advanced base off what type of hardware may come available using the More's law(Forget the exact name) that every 18 months somehting new is coming along. WOW designed for older systems thus the reason it has so many users along with the fact it was already a popular single player series.

Sharkypal · February 2007

Originally posted by Elikal

I hear the XP rates were lowered, first 30% then another 25%. I can not validate this, but it feel about right.
I am aware there are people who feel happy about it, and each to his. I felt the former XP rate should have been raised, not lowered. Vanguard has, due to educated calculations 70,000 - 80,000 players at the moment. Brad McQuaid one said they need at least 250,000 to make profit. Though it is just a guess, I think a vast majority, once they find out about the slow progress will not keep playing. I know that is only what my insight tells me, but I firmly believe this is so.
It is a preferrence, and as that not really debatable, as all kinds of taste. But I want to see progress of my character in an appropriate time, and the current changes just are the last obstacle in a series of maluses this game has. I do not want another EQ1 or Lineage II endless grind. I really don't desire a WOW-ish fast levelling, really not. But this is not what any longer feels as a decend balance between time and progress. I am sorry to say, for VG is a really good game in many aspects. But if this is the final say I will soon quit this game. I want to do quests and explore and maybe try one or two alts and not focus on powergriding to keep a certain feeling of progress. I really dont want to be the uber player, but I want to feel the growth in strength, and that means a certain time-frame must have a certain pay off.
I just inform you of this my standing. I am sorry VG evolves this much into a time consuming game now, but I am not willing to focus my entire spare time on one thing alone to keep up with my personal feeling of a progress. I hope this is not the final word or a real casual server is started ASAP. VG has many good aspects I havent seen in other games, but the price of time VG now demands to pay is beyond what I regard as a reasonable exchange.

PS: I do not like WOW. It is TOO fast and easy. That is not what I desire, but VG now, especially calculating the levelling slowness of the higher levels, is too slow for me now. I had this in the old days, where it was ok, but then was then and now is now. This is a personal expression, and there is no need to "convince" me.

PPS: If I decide to go, my stuff goes to my guildies, so you do not have to ask me if you can have my stuff, should I go.

Your posts are always polite and so I will put this to you pragmatically. You are EXACTLY the kind of MMO player I do not condone. Instead of finding something else to play you'll hang around complaining until the devs finally cave and mess the game up. This is exactly what happened to SWG. It is a very selfish attitude especially considering how many games there are out there that appeal to your style of play.

I personally think you should leave Vanguard. It was NEVER advertised as a casual game and they are not just "words" as you put it. It's like walking into a strip joint and acting surprised because there are naked girls dancing around. It was always advertised as a game that would require a significant investment of time. You, for whatever reason, cannot invest that time and so you must find another game to play that is more suited to your particular time constraints.

I'm not trying to be nasty and I do empathize but I dont see why every single MMO that comes out has to be watered down to suit the casual gamer. Some of us do have the time to invest, and this is about the only game that caters to us. It was never targeted at the WoW/EQ2 market. It was targeted at a niche market. It was after a very specific demographic. Not everyone exists therein!

Sharkypal · February 2007

Originally posted by Areel

The reasons for the XP change are simple. First, even with the lack of polish in the low level areas, it's even less polished and balanced in the high-end areas. They don't want people going there until they've had a chance to work on it. Second, they forgot that even in a crowd of hardcore players, there are some "HARDCORE" players. People already at 30? They probably aren't happy about that, after saying how long it should take to level up. So, in an attempt to curb the upward march of those with endless playtime, they are also punishing those that were playing normally. They'll turn what might have been a fluid leveling progress, into a cheap grind, a timesink with no purpose otther than to slow people down.

My money says that the people who are at 30 already are exploiting, a very common practice around launch time. I feel sorry for the dimwits who blast through the game just so they can sit on the dock to show off. This happened all the time in EQ2 and I would always laugh at them. TBH, they were usually on the dock posing more than they played. Im taking my time with Vanguard and taking in all it has to offer. Obviously, you can reach max level very quickly if you grind 15 hours a day, but IMHO, you're wasting a lot of the game if you do that.

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XP changes ruled out casual players now

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XP changes ruled out casual players now

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