Here’s the idea! Why not make servers based on Hardcore and Casual gamers?
I play WoW, they have several different kinds of severs. PVP, PVE, RP and RPPVP. This means that they already try to cater to different peoples play styles. But why not one up that by making a server dedicated to people who don’t have the time to invest in an MMORPG but still want the feel. Such as they could give most of the same content but make it easier to obtain such items. If you think of the following scenario you could see how this could benefit even the company.
If you take the casual gamer who gets involved with say WoW, with its rep of being one of that fastest MMORPG's. They get involved and see that yes, to a degree it is faster than say FFXI. However, all the things they see in the game that lure them into playing and staying require you to play hardcore style. Eventually I believe that they will take either of two routes. One being, "Ok I’m sick of this endless grind and don’t really have time for this" and then quit. Or, maybe I'll give it a good shot and end up just hating it in the end anyway and discourage them from trying another title by the developer.
Now if you think of a virtual time line. Say the casual user tries the game for 6 months to a year giving as much effort as they can afford to their personal pursuit in the game. In the end they quit and the developer is left with 50+ dollars for initial purchase of the game and about 6 months to a year of account fees. Doesn’t sound that bad for the creators, but that’s thinking pennies. What if you could keep them just as long as the hardcore gamers for say more like 3 years + expansions and account fees? My idea would allow for the casual gamer to experience nearly everything that the hardcore gamer does in half the time, if. Now you could think, well if they finish quick why would they want to stay around? True, but again you’re thinking pennies. Think of how many players that are well aware of how much time in needed to fully enjoy an MMORPG that never even give it a shot. By shortening the time needed to achieve said goals they can now reach people that never even gave it a second thought. This would increase your player base dramatically without sacrificing content and strategy, game play that hardcore gamers come to expect of an MMORPG. And the kicker of it is, if you promote it right, there will be content only for the hardcore gamers so that they don’t feel robbed for doing twice the work for same things. And, it may also make some non hardcore gamers want to convert when they have gotten all they thought they could out of the casual server. Kind of like when you play a consol game such as Halo. Just because you beat it on easy don’t mean you quit, it means you start all the way from scratch on another difficulty.
Bottom line, I am a casual gamer. I don’t really have the time that I would like to play an MMO. I have 1 1/2 jobs and a family and there really just isn’t enough room. I think that if it takes say 6 months to lvl cap for the hardcore and it only took you 3 months to lvl casually, wouldn’t you just play another three months and make another character? And there you have nothing to lose. I know as it stands right now, the casual gamer has no place among the hardcore in pvp on WoW. WoW pvp is very equipment based. Yes they have done some changes to the honor system and the amount it takes to get the items. But it seems so late in the game. Think if you go out now as a casual gamer against the hardcore. They are all mixed together. Who do you think is going to keep gankin you all the time? How long do you think the casual are going to keep trying to fight a losing battle? They want to play the same game you do but you shouldn’t mix little league against the majors.
Originally posted by kopema I think I see a trend here: The uuberleetz who schedule their lives around a computer game call everyone else "lazy;" The gankers who want to roleplay a prison rape gang refer to everyone else using effeminizing terms like "care bare;" and The raiders who need a computer game to force other people to associate with them refer to everyone else as "anti-social."
You prolly could find something for someone silly like me, I am sure it could add something to that list with my behavior, but I try to be nice and to hide it!
But I think you summarize a lot here.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Once again I agree with Steve Wilson. As a matter of fact, some of the ideas he presents seem to be a lot like those I typed with my very own fingers, perhaps in response to one of his previous posts.
As a casual player by necessity, I can say that I try to have no resentment towards hardcore players who put in lots of effort to get what they have. Sometimes I experience the beginning of envy, but I try to catch that with the self-admonition that I'm having fun and doing some of what I want to do. Sometimes I like to group, by necessity in casual pick-up groups most of the time. I certainly do not have the time or the schedule regularity to commit to a raiding schedule. I admire hardcore players who become skillful enough in the game, and are patient enough with the game, to put up with the repetition needed to get the very best loot items.
The real point of the article was toward developers who use overly repetitive content as a sop to demands for new and interesting content. The real fact that many players, including perhaps the majority of those who have posted in this thread, do not object to this play model indicates that the developers have found a market niche in which they can survive. I don't really have problems with developers doing this. People do what they have to do to eat and make money. The REAL problem is the promulgation that the MMORPG genre is defined by repetitive content. This is equivalent to, for example, an automobile company saying to its customers that because it cannot make a car with an 8-cylinder engine, anyone who wants a vehicle with an 8-cylinder engine is really not a car buyer, should not expect to buy a car, and should perhaps look to a truck, boat, or airplane instead.
The amazing thing about the responses here is that many players have chosen to define their preferred genre by repetitive content. Extending the car example, this is like car customers telling other car customers that 4 or 6 cylinders is all that is really needed in car engines, that they are silly for wanting cars with 8-cylinder engines, that the preferences of the 8-cylinder seekers are insulting those happy with their cars, that they are not really car drivers at all, and that they should be happy with 6-cylinder engines or get another kind of vehicle if it means all that much to them. In the example I've given, the absurdity is quite obvious. I'm sure many readers would be quite adamant that none of those disagreeing with the article said anything like this. But I assert on the contrary that every opinion in the example I've used can find an exact correspondence in at least one of the responses in this thread.
There are ways for MMORPG developers to address repetitive-content issues that will appeal to casual gamers and hardcore gamers alike. The fact that no MMORPG developer has yet managed to make any of those ways work is not any reason to say they would not be good to have.
100% agree with you, Steve. I don't have 18 hours a day to spend on ANYTHING anymore let alone grinding on in-game "rewards" that mean the only thing I've accomplished is losing 18 hours of my life I'll never get back. This is the same reason I often refuse to play any Final Fantasy games after a certain point. If I am required to grind on a character for over a week in the amount of time I have to play in order to "earn" or "accomplish" something, I turn the machine off.
That's the best part: if I come across a boss character or obstacle I can't overcome after 4-5 hours of my time, I win by simply shutting the machine off. I win every time!
Maybe it's the fact that SWG not only pissed me off but wounded me that makes me so realistic about MMORPG's anymore. 3 months of my life, literally gone that I can never replace. My gaming now is restricted to what video games were meant to be: TEMPORARY repreives from real life that were FUN above all else.
Nice article.
"Yeah, I was an original Star Wars: Galaxies player. Addict would be more accurate. What would you call 18 hours a day after launch for three months solid?" SOE: "Why did you leave us?" "I signed on for a MMOR.P.G. Not another frickin' MMOF.P.S. you arseholes!"
Your comment, "We're here only for the fun" sums it up pretty well. I've quit real life jobs when they quit being fun. And they paid real money. So, when it's not fun, find something that is fun.
I agree with what this article is saying. I am probably a semi casual gamer. I do not raid but some weekends I will play for hours at a time. I believe there has to be a happy medium, there should be multiple paths to an end game, not just everyone must raid to get the rare piece of whatever again and again, until the next expansion comes out. Wash, rinse, and repeat gets pretty boring after a while and is a sign of a poor development or a lack of original ideas. Besides being a casual gamer, I am also a social gamer and the community in a game, whether it is a lively guild or just a group of people that gather in a tavern, is important, otherwise you might as well play a single player game. But games that force you to group/raid do not promote a social community just a group of people made to group in order to get something done. That I believe is where things can become too much like a real job (ie being forced together to complete a job). I like to work in games (crafting, hunting, whatever) but at my own pace, if I can find like minded people than great but it shouldn't be a pre-requisite to play an online game or advance in a game.
Just a few thoughts.
I Fully agree with what you said here. It was one of the reason I fell in love with pre cu Starwars Galaxies. I was allowed the freedom to solo or team up to kill mobs or craft. the pace was my choice. That Freedom made the game fun
Honestly, there are so many opionions on what constitutes a casual and a hardcore gamer.
I have played both extremes of playing 15 hours a day (7 of them per day raiding 6 nights a week), to playing a couple hours a week for a few months at a time. over the past seven years.
If something is too easy, wether i play 60 hours or 4 that week I will not feel any sense of real accomplishment, thus the game will bore me and i will leave.
I think games should start making all raid content instances and you are able to get the instance with 12 or 18people, and have a maximum of 60 players. The instances should be very hard but be able to be done in 3 to 4 hours( scaling in difficulty to the number of players). The same loot should drop even rares but, a 60 person raid should have 3 to 5 times the loot and chance of rare drops versus the 20 person raid.
This would make the top end items available to both the hard core and casual players, guilds, clans, orgs, etc... Yes the hard core player would get items faster but it would give both ends a chance at the end content and gear.
Most casual players are able to set away 3 or 4 hours one day a week to play, I have rarely met many that could not.
Just an option I feel could work for both sides of the spectrum. Both casual and hard core playing is fun, but the lack of available gear to someone who cant put in 6 to 8 hours at one time or more every week is limited in most all of the MMO games out there.
"Hardcore game player" - sheesh - I though South Park had put paid to that. concept Look - people who want to spend many many many hours of their life in a game are welcome to it, but to suggest they have earned any special rights while others - like doctors, electrical workers, public servants, emergency services, developers, construction workers, caregivers... gad I could go on, but all the people who actually make society work that allow them to sit on their arse and play that game... - while those people who work for a living somehow do not 'deserve' the same stuff, well that is pathetic. Enjoy your game... but those people deserve just as much if not far more right than you to have equal access to the goodies a game has to offer, if they want to take an hour or two out of their productive lives to play online.
Thanks for displaying the complete and utter ignorance of most so-called "casuals". This is the problem with the whole situation.
Look, I dont play MMOs nearly as much as I used to but when I WAS doing 5 or 6 hours a day, 6 days a week... I was running my own business as a guitar/bass teacher and doing very well for myself.
It's not exactly hard... the average person watches hours of TV every day and I dont. Most "serious" video game players dont. Most people only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. If you dont have any other hobbies, it's VERY easy to even be in the most hardcore of raiding guilds. My friend was a Postmaster and he was in one of the most well known and hardcore WoW raiding guilds and he was happily married.
It's sad that there are never serious examples of what exactly your problem is. It's always some vague notion of "casual vs hardcore" with no real examples of individual gripes. It's just an excuse to piss and moan, and that's all it ever will be.
I dont like to raid... so I dont play raiding games... not a hard concept to process.
I agree totally with this article. I did the "hardcore" raider thing for quit a while in EQ1, probably is what burned me out from it. Played casual through a few more games, but dabbled in the raid scene in WoW. Quit that guild after it stopped being about gearing up everyone and more about This Person gets more drops that That Person because they "deserve" it more.
Just my opinion but I think why the hardcore raider types get so miffed around these casuals is perhaps they perceive their "accomplishments" are being trivialized by the Casuals. I would say, look you've been in that uber Lord God Gear of Asskickage for a long time now let the other people see what it's like to wear it.
WoW certainately has shown that a game geared more towards casuals can be very profitable. I don't play it anymore myself, but I cannot deny its impressive success.
Video games and MMOs are fun, but I don't think having the uber gear that you spend hours getting is anything to be proud of. It probably makes people a bigger target for those who don't play video games 10 hours a day. Let those people be proud and brag. Guess where they are in real life?
I think the question to be asked here is, why do these games draw the casual gamer at all? From what I read in the column it sounds like casual players are looking for more of a single player game. So why not stick with the console or pc sinlge player games. It seems to me you are paying a monthly fee and not getting anything more out of these games than the single player games would give you.
Please quote the line that gives you this impression.
The problem is people are sheep. You tell them raiding is fun and give them rewards, then they think it is. Take away raid rewards and see how many people do raids for the "challenge and pride".
Group content may not make you rich in coins or items, but it has social aspects which many of us crave. That is why we play MMOs. I've been in raiding guilds. They are not tight-knit. Most only sign on to get DKP and log off. They couldn't care less about grouping up, and helping out. To me it sounds like those are the types of players who need to be playing single player games.
I've been a 'casual' mmorpg player since Meridian59 & this whole argument was a dead horse years ago - now it's ground mush.
We were discussing this issue over on Usenet (comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg - that's text newsgroups/forums which have been around since the 60s for all you kiddies out there years ago & one thing was clear: there can never be an equitable resolution at both ends of the spectrum. About the only 'fair' solution I ever came up with was to reduce XP or rewards for the no-life hardcores after X number of hours logged in a 24hr period (say 4 hrs for argument's sake) - halve the rewards for 4-8hrs & 10% after that, or something similar. EQ2 had one good thing about it IIRC, which was the double-XP for casual gamers who didn't log a lot of online time. Either/or I guess. I'm sure though that the 2nd lifers out there won't like it either way, because the grind isn't really fun for them either, it's just a means to an end. Take that away (or reduce the odds exponentially of getting the uber-loot) & they're scream like a baby who's rattle you've taken away. There's just no pleasing all of the gamers I'm afraid, though imo GW comes very close, especially with Nightfall.
Incidentally, I put 'casual' at the top there in quotes because what I really am is a "time-limited power-gamer" - I love to get under the bonnet (that's a hood for you yanks of all the games I play, especially mmogs, but being gainfully employed & having RL commitments means I can only devote a few hours a week to my favourite games. Sometimes I find I spend more time reading about them than actually playing them, heh.
(Btw mmorpg.com, do you think 'mmorpg' should come up as a spelling error in your own forums, lol? ;-p)
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
I've been a hardcore gamer as well as a casual. I've never see the problem with people getting more, for putting more time and effort into a game. Even while being casual and having less, I would do my own thing and still have fun. The problem is when one needs the rewards a hardcore gamer gets just to compete which happens in WoW. Then you get a lot of disgruntlement. It is a result of a poorly constructed end game.
That is why I probably always go back to daoc. It is fairly easy for anyone to max out stats, resists. The end game becomes all about just killing the enemy between 3 realms. Of course some are better because they have a few more skills added from points by killing the enemy, but grouping really lessens that gap. I can go on with several characters ready for specific level fighting areas, and play every now and then or a lot, and always have fun. But with like WoW, I did not find that to be the case. Of course others may still enjoy it. I had a rogue with some of the best gear, but I really was bored of the game a long time ago, and only stayed as long as I did because I enjoyed logging on to talk to friends, lol.
These kind of games( daoc) tend to work out well for casual and hardcore gamers alike. Guild Wars is similar I think in its goal as someone mentioned earlier, but I never really played that much. I look forward to these types of MMOs and can't wait for something like Warhammer, or maybe AoC
[quote]Originally posted by Kyleran ... Everyone should play games the way they see fit, and stop trying to make other people follow their playstyle. [/b][/quote]
I agree By the way, great article. I play for fun ,for second fun (first come from real life).
For some people, the "work" you describe IS their type of fun, I enjoy running dungeons over and over again, it's always different somehow and I enjoy it (assuming the group doesn't consist of complete asshats). Yes, developers "trick" players into doing the same content over and over again, but how much fun would it be if everyone got the epic they wanted whenever they ran their first dungeon? It would be boring, there would be no scale. Many people play to be better than other people and if everyone got all their epics, then that would be impossible. I'm glad it takes a lot of time to complete full sets and get that bank of trinkets.
First off I should say I am 'hardcore' being retired so I have plenty of disposable time and plenty of disposable income.
I agree with the articles main points, in fact I would go further and say it applies to hardcore gamers as well. We too want loads of choice and variety - more so even as we spend more time in the world. Personally once I have 'done' a dungeon and completed all the objectives maybe a handful of times to try different tactics I am done there.
Sure there is a (diminishing) minority that are happy to endlessly perform mindless repetative tasks for pretty nebulous rewards (woo +326 ego massager rather than +298 ego massager, thats worth a months grind). The above posts well illustrates this.. Its a reason why I am wary of itemcentric games. What is sadder is these particular type of 'hardcore' gamer assumes that the only way to structure a game to rewards time and dedication is to make it mindless and reptative. I'm exasperated.
Personally I prefer real content which is why I seldom last for much more than 3 months in a world. By then have done everything and seen everything just havent done some things 5000 times over. Thats cool I can go and lie on a beach while I wait for the next biggest best game.
I really don't understand how some people are satisfied with this poor excuse for real content. I guess if it keeps people quiet and docile it helps with a social problem.
Actually thats where the answer lies develop complex worlds with more choices and give players tools to create long lasting 'content' (I don't mean structures and areas but politics intrigue and social situations).
I guess thats whats WoW's big success, somehow they have suckered even moderate players into this high end treadmill. As for me I swore never again after EQI (actually thats not true DAoC in its early days had monsterous grind). Oh for the old days of UO and MUD's where there where real things to do (due to the community largely)
Some of us fall into a little groove between casual and hardcore. I think it's a good idea to provide content for BOTH.
Typicaly, I'll play a few hours more than the usual casual player, but you won't find me putting up with anything being mandatory or rushed. Sometimes I'm into the story and actualy read quest descriptions, sometimes not. Sometimes after a day of work, I just want to turn my brain off and just grind. Sometimes I need to be engaged.
It's providing the options for a variety of playstyles that determines a game's success for me, not simply variety of content.
After reading this article I felt great, why you ask? Simple, it made me feel like I'm not the only one out there. Thats right I agree with you 100% and I want to thank you for taking the time and publishing that article. I myself have been writeing down all the great ideas I come up with for a MMORPG ever since the first days of EQ1.
I believe I might be on a track to coming up with the type of MMORPG we casual are looking for. I am hesitant to share it atm though since lets face it maybe it will be my ticket outta the low income bracket of my life lol. Only time will tell. After reading some of the replys I can see several of the people who disagree'd with you (not all) just didn't seem to grasp your article fully. I base this from their replys, if thats not the case then perhaps some different phraseing would have gotten their point accross more clear. But your point was very clear to me. I also read where someone suggested different server types. While I'm not sure some of ths specifics they mentioned would work I do beleive the idea it self deserves some exploreation.
There have also been some very good replies posted that I would like to thank. But I don't want to make this too long so I will just say thank you for your constructive posts they were very well written. Another idea I read was about lengthy quests for the same type of raid gear. I like this idea myself, mostly cause thats one of the things I wrote down on my list long ago. I even tried to post something on it in another games forums but man did I get flamed like crazy. Ever since then I stopped reading replies to my posts, I get so angry at people after I do.
So now I only read the OP and the replys before my reply and then if anyone truely wants to converse with me after that they can send me a private mesage lol. Hopefuly one day I can get a job with a MMORPG and do my part in makeing a truely fantastic game, at least thats my dream.
Right now, MMOs are not designed for casual players.
Why:
1) Because the way they are designed now is profitable.
2) The desire for a casual MMO player is really poor. (Casual players not being reliable.)
3) Designing a game for all types of players would be too risky. In (Risk vs. Reward), the risk being not enough interest and thus not generating enough money to make up for the additional time and content. Reward being the extra money that can be generated by the additional player types.
It's all economics. SP games are designed for casual players. MMOs are designed for those hardcore elitists. Eventually when the market grows you'll find a rarity where gamers can enjoy casual play without giving up communication.
Of course, in the meantime there's always those paper things with words in them.
--- This is coming from an ex-MMORPG addict.
I'd just like to add, I have played many of the latest games SP and MMO games. (WoW, Guild Wars, Lineage2, and a ton of free or games in beta) and (Spellforce 2, Dreamfall, Thief 3, Fable, Morrowind, Oblivion and more). I know some games are working towards an introduction for casual players, but they still don't know how to do it. Guild Wars is a prime example, although they designed the game partly as a casual SP-like game and the other PVP. It didn't exactly fail, but it didn't do what it set out to do. Which was to get casual players to continue playing alongside hardcore gamers. Casual gamers by the second release were only new comers to GW (and there weren't many).
Originally posted by Maginus00 After reading this article I felt great, why you ask? Simple, it made me feel like I'm not the only one out there. Thats right I agree with you 100% and I want to thank you for taking the time and publishing that article. I myself have been writeing down all the great ideas I come up with for a MMORPG ever since the first days of EQ1.
I'm on the same page, but "different game" Game = UO for me.
The problem with hardcore vrs casual play is the "race". The race to level or endgame, or in UO's case (it's major flaw) a house.
You can also put in "server firsts" as racing criteria, in getting there first and gaining recognition that way. Let me describe another form of recognition.. from UO.
In UO before the skills patch, you had to work very hard to become Grandmaster in most skills. Maybe some were easier than others, but trade skills were difficult. So a GM usually held respect from other players in his skill or trade. Respect earned from time put in. After the patch with player manipulation of skills, and a skills cap of 700 with 100 per GM skill, it was only a matter of time before 7x GM's were all over the place, where before a 2-3x GM could walk proudly and have all the recognition he desired from title alone.
Side note: you could earn GM casually or hardcore, but hardcore will always get there first.
But overall game, hardcore vrs casual.
All a player really needed in UO to become established was a house, but realestate was thin for the populations or number of players, so UO's casual players suffered a housing shortage. Still you could find one if you put the time in, but it was difficult and almost impossible with causal play in mind.
The game though did not end once you achieved maximum skills, there was always fun to be had for both style players. Causal or hardcore, it did'nt matter. Even if you were not maxed in your template (in UO), you could still "hold your own" with hard core players.
Once your characters were nearly fully developed, and you had your house for storage and backup equipment. You could "pick up and play" at your leisure, a couple nights a week and have as much fun as the same guy playing 60 hours a week.
The game was not item centric, the only difference between you as a casual player and the hardcore guy is cash; and most likely he lives in a tower or keep and not a small house. He also probably has a higher quality stash of equipment and supplies... etctra.
But that's ok, you'd still more than likely be on equal footing out in the dungeons.
So hardcore is more about have's and have nots IMO. The way todays games are deigned you need to be hardcore to get the uber stuff, because raids and dungeons themselves require multiple 4-8 hour sessions to get this uber crap. also "level" games with quests for abilities and items translates to exactly the same type of long term (hard core) commitments.
Hardcore players deserve what they work hard for, but if you take out quests that require anything more than 4 hours, and make raids about "the experience" and not items, you will have a game more enjoyable for "everyone" and not this hard vrs casual complaint.
If the game is fun, being hardcore means you have more time to have fun, but casual means you have fun when you can.
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game What I listen to
Right now, MMOs are not designed for casual players.
Why:
1) Because the way they are designed now is profitable.
2) The desire for a casual MMO player is really poor. (Casual players not being reliable.)
3) Designing a game for all types of players would be too risky. In (Risk vs. Reward), the risk being not enough interest and thus not generating enough money to make up for the additional time and content. Reward being the extra money that can be generated by the additional player types.
It's all economics. SP games are designed for casual players. MMOs are designed for those hardcore elitists. Eventually when the market grows you'll find a rarity where gamers can enjoy casual play without giving up communication.
Of course, in the meantime there's always those paper things with words in them.
--- This is coming from an ex-MMORPG addict.
I'd just like to add, I have played many of the latest games SP and MMO games. (WoW, Guild Wars, Lineage2, and a ton of free or games in beta) and (Spellforce 2, Dreamfall, Thief 3, Fable, Morrowind, Oblivion and more). I know some games are working towards an introduction for casual players, but they still don't know how to do it. Guild Wars is a prime example, although they designed the game partly as a casual SP-like game and the other PVP. It didn't exactly fail, but it didn't do what it set out to do. Which was to get casual players to continue playing alongside hardcore gamers. Casual gamers by the second release were only new comers to GW (and there weren't many).
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about as relates to GW. The game sold 2 million copies as at June 2006! That's a success in anyone's books, but what you've failed to realise is that it has continued to grow & expand because of 2 factors as I see it:
1. Free to play after initial purchase - you just can't beat that (though how WoW continues to reel in the masses of $15/mth sheep is a mystery - guess people really are stoopid I'm just happy that all the griefers, pkers & a$$hats had another home to go to from BNet & leave the rest of us well enough alone lol!)
2. It's exactly because it doesn't appeal to hardcore gamers like yourself (except maybe for long-term PvP realm/ladder guilds) that it appeals to gamers like myself & continues to be a greater success with each & every expansion. It's about content after all - you can keep yer grindstone & take the other millers with you for all I care
GW never set out to create a marriage between casual & hc players - no idea where you got this from. It was always meant to appeal to casual gamers first & foremost & keep them coming back in cycles (kinda like CoX does imo). Don't confuse the PvE & PvP games as anything relating to each other - they're completely separate games. A dedicated PvP player can buy a whole skill/item unlock pack & never step foot in the PvE realms, which suits me just fine thank you very much.
The only problem with mmogs has been that the vocal minority (2nd/no-life hc types) have driven design & development in the past, a trend I'm happy to say seems to have been almost completely reversed with games like CoX, GW & hopefully the upcoming Age of Conan. What would you rather as a mmog dev: 1 hc type who subs for 2-3 years, or 100 casual players who buy the game & sub for 1-3 mths each...? QED
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
I agree wholeheartedly. I've been playing MMO's since Meridan 59 and all I see are EQ/WoW clones and leveling treadmillsthat allow even less freedom than their previous counterparts. The best titel I've seen that attempted to address this issue was Planetside. It was a great idea to have a decent skill system and for newbies to have the capability of killing year old vets (if they had the playing skill). I'm waiting for a medieval version of planetside to come out but more player freedoms and no set teams. A guy can dream can't he? lol Anyhow, I agree with ya 110% and am looking forward to the day when they'll be more room for casual gamers that enjoy MMOs.
I think something a lot of "casual" players fail to understand is that a number of elements which seem like work actually make the game more fun, in indirect ways. Compare grouping in oldschool EQ or DAOC, to grouping in today's casual-friendly MMOs. It used to be that you spent so many hours with a group, you really got to feel like you knew eachother. That made grouping a lot more fun.
Now, grouping tends to be a lot more brief. You don't have enough time to get that same level of familiarity, because the gameplay doesn't encourage it. Casual-friendly grouping, where anyone can come and go on a whim, leads to everyone coming and going on a whim.
Or questing, where we do a million tiny little quests, so that casual players will be able to do them, when they only have 15 minutes to play. Ends up making questing ridiculously monotonous and repetitive, when IMHO, it'd be a lot more enjoyable if there were fewer quests that took longer. That'd also give the devs a lot more freedom to tailor quests in all different ways, if they weren't so concerned with keeping them short.
And then there's just the basic element of achievement. I'm often one of the first to say that MMOs are too achievement oriented, when they could be about other than self-progression, but as long as they are, it tends to feel more rewarding, the more you have to put into it. If rewards come to quickly, they don't feel like they're worth much.
So, it always comes back to how some games should be casual friendly, and some should not be. Devs should stop trying to grab both audiences, especially as the market becomes more and more saturated, leading to players picking games that cater more closely to thier preferences. No one is going to get WoW's piece of the pie, but if devs would just focus, they'd probably get some pretty good crumbs.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
And then there's just the basic element of achievement. I'm often one of the first to say that MMOs are too achievement oriented, when they could be about other than self-progression, but as long as they are, it tends to feel more rewarding, the more you have to put into it. If rewards come to quickly, they don't feel like they're worth much. So, it always comes back to how some games should be casual friendly, and some should not be. Devs should stop trying to grab both audiences, especially as the market becomes more and more saturated, leading to players picking games that cater more closely to thier preferences. No one is going to get WoW's piece of the pie, but if devs would just focus, they'd probably get some pretty good crumbs.
Have you tried ATITD perchance? Best pure society/crafting mmorpg/sim out there I've seen & 'achievement' isn't that much of an issue as it's geared up so that the journey is far more important (& enjoyable) than the end result.
On the topic of WoW, I'm tippin 80%+ of its 8mill subs are ppl I don't want in a mmorpg I'm playin anyway - suits me just fine!
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
Comments
You prolly could find something for someone silly like me, I am sure it could add something to that list with my behavior, but I try to be nice and to hide it!
But I think you summarize a lot here.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Once again I agree with Steve Wilson. As a matter of fact, some of the ideas he presents seem to be a lot like those I typed with my very own fingers, perhaps in response to one of his previous posts.
As a casual player by necessity, I can say that I try to have no resentment towards hardcore players who put in lots of effort to get what they have. Sometimes I experience the beginning of envy, but I try to catch that with the self-admonition that I'm having fun and doing some of what I want to do. Sometimes I like to group, by necessity in casual pick-up groups most of the time. I certainly do not have the time or the schedule regularity to commit to a raiding schedule. I admire hardcore players who become skillful enough in the game, and are patient enough with the game, to put up with the repetition needed to get the very best loot items.
The real point of the article was toward developers who use overly repetitive content as a sop to demands for new and interesting content. The real fact that many players, including perhaps the majority of those who have posted in this thread, do not object to this play model indicates that the developers have found a market niche in which they can survive. I don't really have problems with developers doing this. People do what they have to do to eat and make money. The REAL problem is the promulgation that the MMORPG genre is defined by repetitive content. This is equivalent to, for example, an automobile company saying to its customers that because it cannot make a car with an 8-cylinder engine, anyone who wants a vehicle with an 8-cylinder engine is really not a car buyer, should not expect to buy a car, and should perhaps look to a truck, boat, or airplane instead.
The amazing thing about the responses here is that many players have chosen to define their preferred genre by repetitive content. Extending the car example, this is like car customers telling other car customers that 4 or 6 cylinders is all that is really needed in car engines, that they are silly for wanting cars with 8-cylinder engines, that the preferences of the 8-cylinder seekers are insulting those happy with their cars, that they are not really car drivers at all, and that they should be happy with 6-cylinder engines or get another kind of vehicle if it means all that much to them. In the example I've given, the absurdity is quite obvious. I'm sure many readers would be quite adamant that none of those disagreeing with the article said anything like this. But I assert on the contrary that every opinion in the example I've used can find an exact correspondence in at least one of the responses in this thread.
There are ways for MMORPG developers to address repetitive-content issues that will appeal to casual gamers and hardcore gamers alike. The fact that no MMORPG developer has yet managed to make any of those ways work is not any reason to say they would not be good to have.
100% agree with you, Steve. I don't have 18 hours a day to spend on ANYTHING anymore let alone grinding on in-game "rewards" that mean the only thing I've accomplished is losing 18 hours of my life I'll never get back. This is the same reason I often refuse to play any Final Fantasy games after a certain point. If I am required to grind on a character for over a week in the amount of time I have to play in order to "earn" or "accomplish" something, I turn the machine off.
That's the best part: if I come across a boss character or obstacle I can't overcome after 4-5 hours of my time, I win by simply shutting the machine off. I win every time!
Maybe it's the fact that SWG not only pissed me off but wounded me that makes me so realistic about MMORPG's anymore. 3 months of my life, literally gone that I can never replace. My gaming now is restricted to what video games were meant to be: TEMPORARY repreives from real life that were FUN above all else.
Nice article.
"Yeah, I was an original Star Wars: Galaxies player. Addict would be more accurate. What would you call 18 hours a day after launch for three months solid?"
SOE: "Why did you leave us?"
"I signed on for a MMOR.P.G. Not another frickin' MMOF.P.S. you arseholes!"
url=http://www.enjin.com]
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Honestly, there are so many opionions on what constitutes a casual and a hardcore gamer.
I have played both extremes of playing 15 hours a day (7 of them per day raiding 6 nights a week), to playing a couple hours a week for a few months at a time. over the past seven years.
If something is too easy, wether i play 60 hours or 4 that week I will not feel any sense of real accomplishment, thus the game will bore me and i will leave.
I think games should start making all raid content instances and you are able to get the instance with 12 or 18people, and have a maximum of 60 players. The instances should be very hard but be able to be done in 3 to 4 hours( scaling in difficulty to the number of players). The same loot should drop even rares but, a 60 person raid should have 3 to 5 times the loot and chance of rare drops versus the 20 person raid.
This would make the top end items available to both the hard core and casual players, guilds, clans, orgs, etc... Yes the hard core player would get items faster but it would give both ends a chance at the end content and gear.
Most casual players are able to set away 3 or 4 hours one day a week to play, I have rarely met many that could not.
Just an option I feel could work for both sides of the spectrum. Both casual and hard core playing is fun, but the lack of available gear to someone who cant put in 6 to 8 hours at one time or more every week is limited in most all of the MMO games out there.
Look, I dont play MMOs nearly as much as I used to but when I WAS doing 5 or 6 hours a day, 6 days a week... I was running my own business as a guitar/bass teacher and doing very well for myself.
It's not exactly hard... the average person watches hours of TV every day and I dont. Most "serious" video game players dont. Most people only work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. If you dont have any other hobbies, it's VERY easy to even be in the most hardcore of raiding guilds. My friend was a Postmaster and he was in one of the most well known and hardcore WoW raiding guilds and he was happily married.
It's sad that there are never serious examples of what exactly your problem is. It's always some vague notion of "casual vs hardcore" with no real examples of individual gripes. It's just an excuse to piss and moan, and that's all it ever will be.
I dont like to raid... so I dont play raiding games... not a hard concept to process.
the best article i have read on this site
developers need to read this
I agree totally with this article. I did the "hardcore" raider thing for quit a while in EQ1, probably is what burned me out from it. Played casual through a few more games, but dabbled in the raid scene in WoW. Quit that guild after it stopped being about gearing up everyone and more about This Person gets more drops that That Person because they "deserve" it more.
Just my opinion but I think why the hardcore raider types get so miffed around these casuals is perhaps they perceive their "accomplishments" are being trivialized by the Casuals. I would say, look you've been in that uber Lord God Gear of Asskickage for a long time now let the other people see what it's like to wear it.
WoW certainately has shown that a game geared more towards casuals can be very profitable. I don't play it anymore myself, but I cannot deny its impressive success.
The problem is people are sheep. You tell them raiding is fun and give them rewards, then they think it is. Take away raid rewards and see how many people do raids for the "challenge and pride".
Group content may not make you rich in coins or items, but it has social aspects which many of us crave. That is why we play MMOs. I've been in raiding guilds. They are not tight-knit. Most only sign on to get DKP and log off. They couldn't care less about grouping up, and helping out. To me it sounds like those are the types of players who need to be playing single player games.
The editorial makes some valid points.
We were discussing this issue over on Usenet (comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg - that's text newsgroups/forums which have been around since the 60s for all you kiddies out there
Incidentally, I put 'casual' at the top there in quotes because what I really am is a "time-limited power-gamer" - I love to get under the bonnet (that's a hood for you yanks
(Btw mmorpg.com, do you think 'mmorpg' should come up as a spelling error in your own forums, lol? ;-p)
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
That is why I probably always go back to daoc. It is fairly easy for anyone to max out stats, resists. The end game becomes all about just killing the enemy between 3 realms. Of course some are better because they have a few more skills added from points by killing the enemy, but grouping really lessens that gap. I can go on with several characters ready for specific level fighting areas, and play every now and then or a lot, and always have fun. But with like WoW, I did not find that to be the case. Of course others may still enjoy it. I had a rogue with some of the best gear, but I really was bored of the game a long time ago, and only stayed as long as I did because I enjoyed logging on to talk to friends, lol.
These kind of games( daoc) tend to work out well for casual and hardcore gamers alike. Guild Wars is similar I think in its goal as someone mentioned earlier, but I never really played that much. I look forward to these types of MMOs and can't wait for something like Warhammer, or maybe AoC
[quote]Originally posted by Kyleran
... Everyone should play games the way they see fit, and stop trying to make other people follow their playstyle.
[/b][/quote]
I agree
By the way, great article. I play for fun ,for second fun (first come from real life).
Massive Multiplayer Online Industry
I agree with the articles main points, in fact I would go further and say it applies to hardcore gamers as well. We too want loads of choice and variety - more so even as we spend more time in the world. Personally once I have 'done' a dungeon and completed all the objectives maybe a handful of times to try different tactics I am done there.
Sure there is a (diminishing) minority that are happy to endlessly perform mindless repetative tasks for pretty nebulous rewards (woo +326 ego massager rather than +298 ego massager, thats worth a months grind). The above posts well illustrates this.. Its a reason why I am wary of itemcentric games. What is sadder is these particular type of 'hardcore' gamer assumes that the only way to structure a game to rewards time and dedication is to make it mindless and reptative. I'm exasperated.
Personally I prefer real content which is why I seldom last for much more than 3 months in a world. By then have done everything and seen everything just havent done some things 5000 times over. Thats cool I can go and lie on a beach while I wait for the next biggest best game.
I really don't understand how some people are satisfied with this poor excuse for real content. I guess if it keeps people quiet and docile it helps with a social problem.
Actually thats where the answer lies develop complex worlds with more choices and give players tools to create long lasting 'content' (I don't mean structures and areas but politics intrigue and social situations).
I guess thats whats WoW's big success, somehow they have suckered even moderate players into this high end treadmill. As for me I swore never again after EQI (actually thats not true DAoC in its early days had monsterous grind). Oh for the old days of UO and MUD's where there where real things to do (due to the community largely)
Cheers.
Typicaly, I'll play a few hours more than the usual casual player, but you won't find me putting up with anything being mandatory or rushed. Sometimes I'm into the story and actualy read quest descriptions, sometimes not. Sometimes after a day of work, I just want to turn my brain off and just grind. Sometimes I need to be engaged.
It's providing the options for a variety of playstyles that determines a game's success for me, not simply variety of content.
http://erickveil.com/
After reading this article I felt great, why you ask? Simple, it made me feel like I'm not the only one out there. Thats right I agree with you 100% and I want to thank you for taking the time and publishing that article. I myself have been writeing down all the great ideas I come up with for a MMORPG ever since the first days of EQ1.
I believe I might be on a track to coming up with the type of MMORPG we casual are looking for. I am hesitant to share it atm though since lets face it maybe it will be my ticket outta the low income bracket of my life lol. Only time will tell. After reading some of the replys I can see several of the people who disagree'd with you (not all) just didn't seem to grasp your article fully. I base this from their replys, if thats not the case then perhaps some different phraseing would have gotten their point accross more clear. But your point was very clear to me. I also read where someone suggested different server types. While I'm not sure some of ths specifics they mentioned would work I do beleive the idea it self deserves some exploreation.
There have also been some very good replies posted that I would like to thank. But I don't want to make this too long so I will just say thank you for your constructive posts they were very well written. Another idea I read was about lengthy quests for the same type of raid gear. I like this idea myself, mostly cause thats one of the things I wrote down on my list long ago. I even tried to post something on it in another games forums but man did I get flamed like crazy. Ever since then I stopped reading replies to my posts, I get so angry at people after I do.
So now I only read the OP and the replys before my reply and then if anyone truely wants to converse with me after that they can send me a private mesage lol. Hopefuly one day I can get a job with a MMORPG and do my part in makeing a truely fantastic game, at least thats my dream.
Why:
1) Because the way they are designed now is profitable.
2) The desire for a casual MMO player is really poor. (Casual players not being reliable.)
3) Designing a game for all types of players would be too risky. In (Risk vs. Reward), the risk being not enough interest and thus not generating enough money to make up for the additional time and content. Reward being the extra money that can be generated by the additional player types.
It's all economics. SP games are designed for casual players. MMOs are designed for those hardcore elitists. Eventually when the market grows you'll find a rarity where gamers can enjoy casual play without giving up communication.
Of course, in the meantime there's always those paper things with words in them.
--- This is coming from an ex-MMORPG addict.
I'd just like to add, I have played many of the latest games SP and MMO games. (WoW, Guild Wars, Lineage2, and a ton of free or games in beta) and (Spellforce 2, Dreamfall, Thief 3, Fable, Morrowind, Oblivion and more). I know some games are working towards an introduction for casual players, but they still don't know how to do it. Guild Wars is a prime example, although they designed the game partly as a casual SP-like game and the other PVP. It didn't exactly fail, but it didn't do what it set out to do. Which was to get casual players to continue playing alongside hardcore gamers. Casual gamers by the second release were only new comers to GW (and there weren't many).
I'm on the same page, but "different game" Game = UO for me.
The problem with hardcore vrs casual play is the "race". The race to level or endgame, or in UO's case (it's major flaw) a house.
You can also put in "server firsts" as racing criteria, in getting there first and gaining recognition that way. Let me describe another form of recognition.. from UO.
In UO before the skills patch, you had to work very hard to become Grandmaster in most skills. Maybe some were easier than others, but trade skills were difficult. So a GM usually held respect from other players in his skill or trade. Respect earned from time put in. After the patch with player manipulation of skills, and a skills cap of 700 with 100 per GM skill, it was only a matter of time before 7x GM's were all over the place, where before a 2-3x GM could walk proudly and have all the recognition he desired from title alone.
Side note: you could earn GM casually or hardcore, but hardcore will always get there first.
But overall game, hardcore vrs casual.
All a player really needed in UO to become established was a house, but realestate was thin for the populations or number of players, so UO's casual players suffered a housing shortage. Still you could find one if you put the time in, but it was difficult and almost impossible with causal play in mind.
The game though did not end once you achieved maximum skills, there was always fun to be had for both style players. Causal or hardcore, it did'nt matter. Even if you were not maxed in your template (in UO), you could still "hold your own" with hard core players.
Once your characters were nearly fully developed, and you had your house for storage and backup equipment. You could "pick up and play" at your leisure, a couple nights a week and have as much fun as the same guy playing 60 hours a week.
The game was not item centric, the only difference between you as a casual player and the hardcore guy is cash; and most likely he lives in a tower or keep and not a small house. He also probably has a higher quality stash of equipment and supplies... etctra.
But that's ok, you'd still more than likely be on equal footing out in the dungeons.
So hardcore is more about have's and have nots IMO.
The way todays games are deigned you need to be hardcore to get the uber stuff, because raids and dungeons themselves require multiple 4-8 hour sessions to get this uber crap. also "level" games with quests for abilities and items translates to exactly the same type of long term (hard core) commitments.
Hardcore players deserve what they work hard for, but if you take out quests that require anything more than 4 hours, and make raids about "the experience" and not items, you will have a game more enjoyable for "everyone" and not this hard vrs casual complaint.
If the game is fun, being hardcore means you have more time to have fun, but casual means you have fun when you can.
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
What I listen to
1. Free to play after initial purchase - you just can't beat that (though how WoW continues to reel in the masses of $15/mth sheep is a mystery - guess people really are stoopid
2. It's exactly because it doesn't appeal to hardcore gamers like yourself (except maybe for long-term PvP realm/ladder guilds) that it appeals to gamers like myself & continues to be a greater success with each & every expansion. It's about content after all - you can keep yer grindstone & take the other millers with you for all I care
GW never set out to create a marriage between casual & hc players - no idea where you got this from. It was always meant to appeal to casual gamers first & foremost & keep them coming back in cycles (kinda like CoX does imo). Don't confuse the PvE & PvP games as anything relating to each other - they're completely separate games. A dedicated PvP player can buy a whole skill/item unlock pack & never step foot in the PvE realms, which suits me just fine thank you very much.
The only problem with mmogs has been that the vocal minority (2nd/no-life hc types) have driven design & development in the past, a trend I'm happy to say seems to have been almost completely reversed with games like CoX, GW & hopefully the upcoming Age of Conan. What would you rather as a mmog dev: 1 hc type who subs for 2-3 years, or 100 casual players who buy the game & sub for 1-3 mths each...? QED
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
I think something a lot of "casual" players fail to understand is that a number of elements which seem like work actually make the game more fun, in indirect ways. Compare grouping in oldschool EQ or DAOC, to grouping in today's casual-friendly MMOs. It used to be that you spent so many hours with a group, you really got to feel like you knew eachother. That made grouping a lot more fun.
Now, grouping tends to be a lot more brief. You don't have enough time to get that same level of familiarity, because the gameplay doesn't encourage it. Casual-friendly grouping, where anyone can come and go on a whim, leads to everyone coming and going on a whim.
Or questing, where we do a million tiny little quests, so that casual players will be able to do them, when they only have 15 minutes to play. Ends up making questing ridiculously monotonous and repetitive, when IMHO, it'd be a lot more enjoyable if there were fewer quests that took longer. That'd also give the devs a lot more freedom to tailor quests in all different ways, if they weren't so concerned with keeping them short.
And then there's just the basic element of achievement. I'm often one of the first to say that MMOs are too achievement oriented, when they could be about other than self-progression, but as long as they are, it tends to feel more rewarding, the more you have to put into it. If rewards come to quickly, they don't feel like they're worth much.
So, it always comes back to how some games should be casual friendly, and some should not be. Devs should stop trying to grab both audiences, especially as the market becomes more and more saturated, leading to players picking games that cater more closely to thier preferences. No one is going to get WoW's piece of the pie, but if devs would just focus, they'd probably get some pretty good crumbs.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
On the topic of WoW, I'm tippin 80%+ of its 8mill subs are ppl I don't want in a mmorpg I'm playin anyway - suits me just fine!
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^