Confirmed: Exploiters Banned

Razorteets · February 2007

Originally posted by Rattrap

Ok

So i payed 50$ to play buggy and unfinished game.

It is like shaking hands with Sigil and saying "I will give you the money so you continue developing the product i like to play , and i will not mind the bugs until than"

So I played , and played many times loosing XP and dying due to this bugs. And I say to may self - Sigil is working to fix it.

And than I come over a bug that actually gives me XP. I say to my self "Ok other bugs took my xp, this one gives me xp..great"

And sigil bans me for it

I thought we had agreement to play the game WITH BUGS

Didnt we Sigil

So either clean all the bugs, and than ban the people

Or have plethora of bugs , and acknowledge that some of them take and some of them give xp

It's called an EULA. I know, I know, nobody actually reads them. They just scroll down to the bottom so that they can click the accept button, but somewhere in there, buried deep in all of those paragraphs it says that exploitings bugs is a no no. Seems to me like you agreed not to exploit bugs, and if you did, you would suffer the consequences. On top of that, you're really in no place to barter with Sigil. If you're that embittered, just stop playing?

roadwarriors · February 2007

If you knew anything about computers you would know how impossible it is to hack a game, since you would need the source code to do it. In other words you would have to physically break into the building that the only copy of the game is on, which most likely is rented from a larger facility with a more expensive security system, etc. ,etc., dot, dot on your face, etc.

not very smart at all...

Chieftan · February 2007

Originally posted by Razorteets

OMG I'm so glad you brought that up. You totally contributed to the conversation. R-Tard.

Yes because nothing heightens the depth of a discussion like namecalling and shorthand.

I know Sigil's trying to build some credibility but when you don't catch such a obvious bug/exploit in beta shouldn't the burden of guilt go to the designers rather than the guy/gal who just paid $50 to play the game?

Razorteets · February 2007

I can see where you're coming from on that one. They really ought to have caught that in the beta, but the difference, to me, at least, is when the person that found the bugs exploits it. If they merely find a bug, yeah, it's Sigil's bad, and they're sorry that they didn't have all of their ducks in a row. But when you take advantage of that bug, you just became the greater of the two evils.

Bladin · February 2007

lol @ rattrap, you are totally totally ridiculous.

Your posts are so laughable in this topic that I'd be surprised if anyone ever took you seriously again.

"theres bugs in a mmorpg(like omg bugs?!!?! in a mmorpg?!?! thats unheard of!). And just because this guy found one, and then used it to his advantage to exploit the system and level beyond what was intended, there should be no punishment! I mean since there are bugs in this game it's okay right!? Okay so he was exploiting a bug(cheating), just reset his level and let him go. I mean he only did this because you have so many bugs it just kills you so many times because of bugs. The bugs actually jumped out of the computer and used my keyboard and ran my character into the 5 mobs at the quest area!"

Hey look that guy dropped his wallet! His fault! I'm going to use all his credit cards and spend all his cash! It's his fault for dropping it, i shouldn't be charged of any crime.

Hey the teacher left the room, everyone lets search the desk for the test answers! its his fault for leaving, if we cheat its his fault!

Hey see that person over there? He leaves car on in the morning to warm up! Lets steal it! "okay!" I mean the police won't stop us, it's his fault for leaving it on.

That guy forgot to lock his door, let's go steal all his furniture! It's his fault for not locking his door, I won't get in trouble for this.

You act like they put the bugs in on purpose to make you upset. In the real world theres such a thing called money, and it rules the world. Vanguard was released because it had to be released. Go back to fantasy land where money isn't important and games can stand to be pushed back untill they are bugfree and completely finished despite the cost.

Look at any other mmorpg, if it takes too long to develop, and they start reaching their beta/development funding limit, then guess what? They will release early too, regardless of developer promises.

CylusSigil · February 2007

Originally posted by roadwarriors

If you knew anything about computers you would know how impossible it is to hack a game, since you would need the source code to do it. In other words you would have to physically break into the building that the only copy of the game is on, which most likely is rented from a larger facility with a more expensive security system, etc. ,etc., dot, dot on your face, etc.

not very smart at all...

Or you could just manipulate the flow of data that is transferred between the client and the server, preferrably in a way that's beneficial to you.

Or you could just manipulate the data that is stored in the memory of your computer, preferrably in a way that's beneficial to you.

But hey! You knew that, right?

Enforcer71 · February 2007

Originally posted by Bladin

lol @ rattrap, you are totally totally ridiculous.

Your posts are so laughable in this topic that I'd be surprised if anyone ever took you seriously again.

"theres bugs in a mmorpg(like omg bugs?!!?! in a mmorpg?!?! thats unheard of!). And just because this guy found one, and then used it to his advantage to exploit the system and level beyond what was intended, there should be no punishment! I mean since there are bugs in this game it's okay right!? Okay so he was exploiting a bug(cheating), just reset his level and let him go. I mean he only did this because you have so many bugs it just kills you so many times because of bugs. The bugs actually jumped out of the computer and used my keyboard and ran my character into the 5 mobs at the quest area!"

Hey look that guy dropped his wallet! His fault! I'm going to use all his credit cards and spend all his cash! It's his fault for dropping it, i shouldn't be charged of any crime.

Hey the teacher left the room, everyone lets search the desk for the test answers! its his fault for leaving, if we cheat its his fault!

Hey see that person over there? He leaves car on in the morning to warm up! Lets steal it! "okay!" I mean the police won't stop us, it's his fault for leaving it on.

That guy forgot to lock his door, let's go steal all his furniture! It's his fault for not locking his door, I won't get in trouble for this.

You act like they put the bugs in on purpose to make you upset. In the real world theres such a thing called money, and it rules the world. Vanguard was released because it had to be released. Go back to fantasy land where money isn't important and games can stand to be pushed back untill they are bugfree and completely finished despite the cost.

Look at any other mmorpg, if it takes too long to develop, and they start reaching their beta/development funding limit, then guess what? They will release early too, regardless of developer promises.

Very well said..

vylo · February 2007

Every MMO has a EULA against these exploits and any of them will ban you for it if they catch you. That isn't hard to understand.

sablephoenix · February 2007

This being my first post ever, not much stirs me to write something but this topic caught my attention.

Being an old EQ1 player, I can remember a number of exploits that were openly known in the game and used by numerous players, the infamous cheese crafting and shark meat quest being just a couple. I used both, I'll admit. Some exploits cry out to be used.

Now, the real problem, as I see it, starts long before you even log into any of these servers. As much as people would like to defend the creators of these MMos (I'll drop the RPG part since I didn't see even one RP server on Vanguard, hence no purchase by me), what happens is that they sell products that are highly bugged and should have never, ever been released from beta. ANY game that announces its launch date before Beta is completed should be eyed suspiciously.

Now, minor bugs are to be expected but bugs like these should have been caught. This game was alpha/beta tested for a long time. They as the company should have had someone on staff to replay these quests to test this and not leave it to the honesty of the beta testers. And, knowing good and well from experience from EQ1 what the playerbase is capable of, they should have easily foreseen these types of exploits, even if it was done with packet sniffing. I'd even say especially so. I'm sure they haven't been gone from EQ so long that they don't remember or know about such things as ShowEQ, MacroQuest, and the ton of other things used to exploit.

What it comes down to is that the companies that put out such busted software should be held accountable as much as the person that exploits. I'm sure they aren't giving their playerbase a refund of the copy of the game they bought or are even considering a partial refund to the monthly fee to play when the time comes. While I agree that exploiters should face some punishment, what about the crime of robbing people with highly bugged games?

The only reason it happens is because the gaming community allows it to happen. Don't want bugs? Stop buying the games until they start releasing something that isn't filled with more bugs than Microsoft software. In the end it'll only hurt the developers as they find they can't make money from their 'it's not finished but lets rush it out of the door to make money' games.

vylo · February 2007

Just to let you know there is in fact at least one RP server in vanguard.

sablephoenix · February 2007

Originally posted by vylo

Just to let you know there is in fact at least one RP server in vanguard.

Well, they're surely not proud of it. You go look at their server list and none are labeled as such. But, of course, the PvP ones are labeled so people know which ones are PvP. But, of course this will lead to 'you can RP on any server' discussion and that's off topic.

roadwarriors · February 2007

Originally posted by CylusSigil

Originally posted by roadwarriors

If you knew anything about computers you would know how impossible it is to hack a game, since you would need the source code to do it. In other words you would have to physically break into the building that the only copy of the game is on, which most likely is rented from a larger facility with a more expensive security system, etc. ,etc., dot, dot on your face, etc.

not very smart at all...

Or you could just manipulate the flow of data that is transferred between the client and the server, preferrably in a way that's beneficial to you.

Or you could just manipulate the data that is stored in the memory of your computer, preferrably in a way that's beneficial to you.

But hey! You knew that, right?

You can't manipulate the flow of data unless you control the ports to the computers that the data is traveling to and from. Data isn't something you can just change while it's being transfered over a line, signal, wire, etc. It has to be recieved, inputed, altered, and sent back out. In other words you can't use a hex editor to change information stored in the virtual memory because the only information stored in the visual memory only effects the cliet.

Yes i knew that but it's impossible. Unless you can speak 22,000 langauges. That would be the equivalent of having all the relative knowledge for decrypting packets of information manually.

roadwarriors · February 2007

Originally posted by Razorteets

Originally posted by Rattrap

Ok

So i payed 50$ to play buggy and unfinished game.

It is like shaking hands with Sigil and saying "I will give you the money so you continue developing the product i like to play , and i will not mind the bugs until than"

So I played , and played many times loosing XP and dying due to this bugs. And I say to may self - Sigil is working to fix it.

And than I come over a bug that actually gives me XP. I say to my self "Ok other bugs took my xp, this one gives me xp..great"

And sigil bans me for it

I thought we had agreement to play the game WITH BUGS

Didnt we Sigil

So either clean all the bugs, and than ban the people

Or have plethora of bugs , and acknowledge that some of them take and some of them give xp

It's called an EULA. I know, I know, nobody actually reads them. They just scroll down to the bottom so that they can click the accept button, but somewhere in there, buried deep in all of those paragraphs it says that exploitings bugs is a no no. Seems to me like you agreed not to exploit bugs, and if you did, you would suffer the consequences. On top of that, you're really in no place to barter with Sigil. If you're that embittered, just stop playing?So if the EULA said you can't masterbate for five years, would that be legaly or ethicaly binding? Please explain in detail.

vylo · February 2007

It would be binding in the sense they could ban you if they found and could prove that you were indeed masturbating. Heck they could make a rule to ban you if you wore a pink hat. But then again they would have to prove it, which isn't very feasible.

nakuma · February 2007

Originally posted by roadwarriors

Originally posted by Razorteets

Originally posted by Rattrap

Ok

So i payed 50$ to play buggy and unfinished game.

It is like shaking hands with Sigil and saying "I will give you the money so you continue developing the product i like to play , and i will not mind the bugs until than"

So I played , and played many times loosing XP and dying due to this bugs. And I say to may self - Sigil is working to fix it.

And than I come over a bug that actually gives me XP. I say to my self "Ok other bugs took my xp, this one gives me xp..great"

And sigil bans me for it

I thought we had agreement to play the game WITH BUGS

Didnt we Sigil

So either clean all the bugs, and than ban the people

Or have plethora of bugs , and acknowledge that some of them take and some of them give xp

It's called an EULA. I know, I know, nobody actually reads them. They just scroll down to the bottom so that they can click the accept button, but somewhere in there, buried deep in all of those paragraphs it says that exploitings bugs is a no no. Seems to me like you agreed not to exploit bugs, and if you did, you would suffer the consequences. On top of that, you're really in no place to barter with Sigil. If you're that embittered, just stop playing?So if the EULA said you can't masterbate for five years, would that be legaly or ethicaly binding? Please explain in detail.

well your the one that made the concious decision to pay $50 + sales tax for this garbage game. I played the beta since beta 3 and the bugs andissues that werent stomped out should of been before release. I am actually glad I played the beta now I personally dont find myself paying $50 i let people like you do the bug stomping for me. So that way when I come in and pay $50 or in some cases $39.99 since the price goes down, i can feel more justified in my purchase. I think its laughable what SIGIL is pulling, very similar to SOE in some effect, though very loosely directed. mismanagement, rushing of product to market, bugs, issues, you name it problems. SO far i lucked out and got into many betas in past 2-3 years, and frankly its a eye opening experience. I dont see it as a free game i take a proactive effort in helping, but some games are just lost or just dont have that appeal to them where you feel you have to force yourself to play in order to have a more unbaised perspective of the game.

I feel i made the wise choice not to pay for it. from all the stuff ive heard, from crummy immature, infantile community, to this down right halarious gamestopping bugs, hey have fun, good luck, and let me know how the your homework goes. i dont know about you all, but I personally dont pay $50 for a game to beta test it, its my responsibility to tell the developers what the issue is, its their responsibility to have it completed, compiled and ready for me to go have fun with. as a MMO yeah, to some degree thre will always be bugs, i cant fault them for that, after all this is sigil and Soe we are dealing with.

very minor issues I can deal with, when drivers change, or adding new content on established existing content, adding or expanding graphical features to a already established userbase/engine to enchance the game, stuff like that i can deal with. buit when I spend $50+ $15 for a game that is out of the box buggy, and for the most part unplayable more than it is playable im sorry I hit the cancel button and throw the game in the garbage. like i said for me you wont find me bug testing, if there is an exploit i may try it once or twice but after that I wont deal with it, frankly takes the fun out the game for me i like to work for my quest, feel like i accomplished something frankly id say developers are on their own, ill have you all pay for that , once I am confident a game is worth going into after all the hooplah has died down then i give it a go my way of ensuring my $50 is well spent. im pretty sure I wont be dealing with Vanguard because of the beta fiasco, the rush to market, and overall downright poor performance and otherwise buggy unfinished state of the game.

but what can you do, every SOE touches, turns to crap.

CylusSigil · February 2007

Originally posted by roadwarriors

In other words you can't use a hex editor to change information stored in the virtual memory because the only information stored in the visual memory only effects the cliet.

And that client can send requests to the server, authentication bugs/issues aside.

Anything client-side can be viewed and manipulated, as you pointed out. Finding and abusing a loophole/exploit/bug that allows you to send and request information to and from the server through packet and/or memory manipulation is a bannable offense.

I find it intriguing that you're defending it.

nakuma · February 2007

Originally posted by CylusSigil

Originally posted by roadwarriors

In other words you can't use a hex editor to change information stored in the virtual memory because the only information stored in the visual memory only effects the cliet.

And that client can send requests to the server, authentication bugs/issues aside.

Anything client-side can be viewed and manipulated, as you pointed out. Finding and abusing a loophole/exploit/bug that allows you to send and request information to and from the server through packet and/or memory manipulation is a bannable offense.

I find it intriguing that you're defending it.

hmm interesting we actually got sigil Gm's or whomever he or she is posting here. talk about being out the house after dark.

Sharkypal · February 2007

Originally posted by Rattrap

I dont think this is a smart decision on side of Sigil

The game is full of bugs. Most of them break the quests , or kill you. So most of these bugs cause you to lose hard earned xp.

So when someone finds a bug that lets you gain xp - sigil is quick to ban.

Than what should people that lose xp do - ban sigil ?

In game so full of bugs you are bound to find all kinds of bugs , some overly eager players would use them - it is just human thing to do.

I think Sigil is really shooting its own leg

ROFL, there is no "decision". Exploiting = Permanent Ban. The state of the game is inconsequential. If you are knowingly using a flaw in the game to exploit and they can see that via logs, you're out. I stand firmly behind this policy.

Cerion · February 2007

I haven't been terribly sympathetic to Sigil's poor launch, but it is ridiculous to justify unethical behavior of an exploiter with the childish mantra "two wrongs make a right". That's exactly what it is: Childish.

Exploiting a bug or dupe is wrong, and I question the very ethical character of anyone using such an exploit, or anyone defending someone who does. My God, what leads anyone to think that such a thing is good?

nakuma · February 2007

Originally posted by Cerion

I haven't been terribly sympathetic to Sigil's poor launch, but it is ridiculous to justify unethical behavior of an exploiter with the childish mantra "two wrongs make a right". That's exactly what it is: Childish.
Exploiting a bug or dupe is wrong, and I question the very ethical character of anyone using such an exploit, or anyone defending someone who does. My God, what leads anyone to think that such a thing is good?

my god, what leads anyone to think a buggy game is good??

nakuma · February 2007

i think this is merely the start of much bigger issues that will come to pass with this game. dont say i didn't warn ya lol. the proverbial sh*t will hit the fan soon enough. Ill have front row seats to watch this game fall lol my god man itll be glorious.

Sharkypal · February 2007

Originally posted by nakuma

Originally posted by Cerion

I haven't been terribly sympathetic to Sigil's poor launch, but it is ridiculous to justify unethical behavior of an exploiter with the childish mantra "two wrongs make a right". That's exactly what it is: Childish.
Exploiting a bug or dupe is wrong, and I question the very ethical character of anyone using such an exploit, or anyone defending someone who does. My God, what leads anyone to think that such a thing is good?

my god, what leads anyone to think a buggy game is good??

Simple, if you don't like it, don't play it. Why is it so hard to comprehend this philosophy? Yes it has bugs, Yes it has problems. You either deal with it like many are doing, or you hit "cancel sub".

Redtalon · February 2007

Originally posted by Rattrap
Ok So i payed 50$ to play buggy and unfinished game.It is like shaking hands with Sigil and saying "I will give you the money so you continue developing the product i like to play , and i will not mind the bugs until than"So I played , and played many times loosing XP and dying due to this bugs. And I say to may self - Sigil is working to fix it.
And than I come over a bug that actually gives me XP. I say to my self "Ok other bugs took my xp, this one gives me xp..great"And sigil bans me for it
I thought we had agreement to play the game WITH BUGSDidnt we Sigil
So either clean all the bugs, and than ban the peopleOr have plethora of bugs , and acknowledge that some of them take and some of them give xp
You know this one sided thinking always bugged meIf its good for us -> You are playing bugged game , and loosing XP , but you pay and not complain - than this is great
It is not good for us -> You are playing bugged game, but you actually found a bug that is TO YOUR BENEFIT - Than we kick you

News flash for ya, ALL games have exploits, bug, unfinished.

Get a grip.

Sharkypal · February 2007

Originally posted by nakuma

i think this is merely the start of much bigger issues that will come to pass with this game. dont say i didn't warn ya lol. the proverbial sh*t will hit the fan soon enough. Ill have front row seats to watch this game fall lol my god man itll be glorious.

Yep, another doom mongering prediction artist. It will do fine. Deal with it

Redtalon · February 2007

Originally posted by Sharkypal
Originally posted by nakuma
i think this is merely the start of much bigger issues that will come to pass with this game. dont say i didn't warn ya lol. the proverbial sh*t will hit the fan soon enough. Ill have front row seats to watch this game fall lol my god man itll be glorious.

Yep, another doom mongering prediction artist. It will do fine. Deal with it

/agree

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