Casual gamer....Hardcore gamer...um..... Games are about having fun. If a game isn't for you don't play it. What I find funny is that Dan talks about how the casual gamer will guide the industry. So what your saying is you want every game to be casual friendly? Which of course would alienate the core and hardcore players and put them in the position the casual players say they were or are in. WoW is extremey casual friendly. Hell most games are more casual friendly than ever now. Even EQ is more casual friendly. My 68 year old father-in-law plays EQ. As a warrior and he solo's most times and is leveling pretty damn fast. He started on Jan 15th of 2007 and is already level 33 in less than a month and he only plays a few hours a day. WHen I played EQ back in 99 this was impossible for a warrior to do. I just don't understand. Why can't we as the core and hardcore players also have what we like in games? Why does everything have to geared for casual players? WHy can't we have our raids? Our dungeons? our challenge? Why can;t we as gamers co-exist in the same MMO?No matter what your play style is?
Companies are finally seeing what the dopes that made EQI refused to. Casual players are the VAST majority of you're game and hence pay the bills..
EQI treated casual / core players as dirt and eventually paid the price for it.
The days of 90% of you're playerbase keeping the lights on so the other 10% can enjoy the game is no more. truthfully It's laughable how pompus SOE was and quite amazing EQI got away with it for 4 years.
Geez ....let's custom make content for Furor and his band of dopes. Oh and let's make it so the best gear is raid obtained only.
Hmmm..and while were at it let's make sure crafted items are mediocre at best too. We can't have the unwashed masses actually having decent gear or funds. Finally...whenever the pseudo elite whine about classes or content we'll nerff the crap out of them.
Gotta keep that 10% player base happy I tell ya!!!
Gammers finally wised up and now any game released anti casual / core friendly will fail....as well it should.
Make no mistake though.
I'm a firm believer MMO's should offer content for the hardcore player and raiders should garner the best gear. Not the gulf that existed in EQI though. No one should have gear 2-3 times the hitpoints or power of the most casual player. PERIOD
Number one rule in life....NEVER bite the hand that feeds you.
I think part of the problem in the past has been how expensive it is to produce and maintain a persistant online world. I suspect as the industry continues to grow, hardware continues to become less expensive, and developers become less expensive ...we will see more and more content added and less and less re-hashing of old content. Throw in the increasing competition ...and free enterprise will work it's magic.
You can see the same pattern in cell phones, automobiles, televisions..ect. The first mass produced , affordable automobile came in one style and in one color to keep costs down. Look out your window and you can easily see that is no longer the case. I think the gap between the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer will continue to grow. Niche markets will fill in the gaps and everyone will benefit from the greater variety. That hardcore guild that trys to dominate a mmo with all that hardwork today...may be the same sponsored guild tomarrow getting paid to play and represent whoever sponsors them.
Your first baskeball players, baseball players...the hardcore ones pushed the limits constantly and essentialy help define the game. They weren't payed much if anything at all to do it. They did because some people just do it....it's what they like to do.
I also think their will be ( and already are ) " professional gamers "...sponsored and making a good living playing video games. More of that to come..I'm sure. The industry just graduated from its infant stage and into it's toddler stage....I for one..am excited about the what the future brings in regards to online entertainment.
Originally posted by j9ncalif I agree wholeheartedly. I've been playing MMO's since Meridan 59 and all I see are EQ/WoW clones and leveling treadmillsthat allow even less freedom than their previous counterparts. The best titel I've seen that attempted to address this issue was Planetside. It was a great idea to have a decent skill system and for newbies to have the capability of killing year old vets (if they had the playing skill). I'm waiting for a medieval version of planetside to come out but more player freedoms and no set teams. A guy can dream can't he? lol Anyhow, I agree with ya 110% and am looking forward to the day when they'll be more room for casual gamers that enjoy MMOs.
Yup, you should look at Darkfall.
It's in development, and some here have hinted that it is "akin" to vaporware. Still, by frequenting their forums "casually" you can show support for this format. That being a game that both a casual and hardcore player can enjoy "together".
Warhammer also seems to have some of this possibility of "pick up and play", but to me resembles an MMOfps rather than MMOrpg.
UO and Darkfall seem similar in design, and if you've read my 2nd post in this thread, you may get my idea or understanding of what seperates the play styles in todays games compared to UO as it used to be.
I could example meridan, but never played it.
Bottom line, you need to remove the race to get there first, but without making the accomplishment itself of getting there trivial. The same time and effort should be neccesary, but the reward is more for respect than control or power. Getting there just opens up more content or facets of the game, and Endgame is not a factor.
Endgame is only a factor in raid/quest/level race games.
Once you get there, it's over...
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game What I listen to
Really, this idea of repeated content is nothing new. Games that featured 'best time' or 'highest score' tables got people repeating content, but only if they wished to. It's a problem in MMO's because the repetition is forced upon the player as the primary means of progression. We can all see why they do it. It's better for the devs to have content that takes more time to complete, even if artificially extended.
Personally, I think the answer to this conundrum for developers is Player. Created. Content.
Obviously games like WoW couldn't have users making up dungeons. But you could also word it as Player. Driven. Content. Gameplay that finds it's basis in the actions of other players, more than how quickly a player can complete an artificial dev-supplied task.
Gamers are remarkable for their abilities to generate play for themselves. Games that embrace that will give better play experiences for a wider range of players in my opinion. I do not play EVE, but from what I've heard about that game, it appears that the politics BETWEEN players forms a large chunk of what could be considered 'content' as far as the game world goes.
Players ARE the answer. Devs need to see them as a game resource, rather than consumers of content. Games like WoW will always be a treadmill, cause they treat the players like open mouths waiting to be fed. If it takes a long time to cook the next meal, then you need to keep them chewing for a long long time. No wonder some players complain that they've chewed too long, it's now tasteless, their mouth is sore, and they're about to hurl!!
<b>All I have to say is be careful what you wish for.</b> The reason I play MMO's is for a certain level of complexity and difficulty. As well as the free form nature of play. I've stated this in another thread, time in GAME does not dictate whether you are hardcore or not. I only play a few hours but when I do I try to accomplish as much as I can. So am I hardcore or not? I don't like the feeling of a treadmill. I don't think anyone does. Even still I don't want an easy game. Call it work. Call it what you want. I like a complex game. If I wanted to be lead by the hand through content I would play more console games. If MMORPG's don't walk a fine line between all of this hardcore vs. casual talk the ganre itself could take a hit. That line goes both ways.
Steve Wilson's article is right on -- I couldn't have said it better -- or as civilly -- myself.
I realize some people find fun in treating their game like a job, like something much more important than 'just a game'. I always thought of myself as a serious gamer due just to the amount of play time I put in. I was really surprised to discover I must be a 'casual' gamer because I just don't get the idea that people should have to work or suffer (aggravation, basically) to make certain kinds of progress in a game. So I don't think it's really just about the time you put in. It's about why you play -- or perhaps whether you consider it play at all.
There's no reason not to have games of both sorts, the ones that require work and ones that are for fun. What can cause problems is trying to please both groups. I play CoH/V and the developers say they consider it a game for casual players, but some of the things they do just make me roll my eyes at that idea. They clearly don't really understand the playing-just-for-the-fun-of-it mentality. Trying to make both groups happy is more likely to just frustrate everybody to some extent.
Until there are good games that are clearly made for one group or the other, I don't think there's any way to really know if the 'casual' player is in the majority or not. One of the problems I see in the MMO world is that nobody actually wants or tries to do something very far from what's been done before (aside from the graphics and story-world they dress it up with). Given the tendencies in the game industry as a whole, it doesn't look like anyone will anytime soon, either.
So games are developed by 'hard-core' gamers who tend to buy into the idea that it's a serious activity, and then to some extent or other they may try to accommodate the 'casual' gamers they clearly have (thinly veiled) contempt for. That 'hard-core' audience is out there, a known quantity, and they're just going to continue focusing on them for fear that a strong 'casual' gamer base isn't there. I think they're wrong, but considering the money it takes to develop a quality game these days, companies are going to stick to what they know.
GW never set out to create a marriage between casual & hc players - no idea where you got this from. It was always meant to appeal to casual gamers first & foremost & keep them coming back in cycles (kinda like CoX does imo). Don't confuse the PvE & PvP games as anything relating to each other - they're completely separate games. A dedicated PvP player can buy a whole skill/item unlock pack & never step foot in the PvE realms, which suits me just fine thank you very much.
I agree with you on most of your points in this statement, but GW has seen a bit of a paradigm shift since that initial campaign. Though it does still focus on casual gamers the most, most end-game has taken a decided shift towards the more hardcore gamers. DoA is a good example. I know it's a elite mission, but you can spend hours just assembling a group to run through. Compare that with FoW or UW, and you can see the shift GW is making.
Before I even read the responses, I just want to say. . .woot! This article says it all. What else can you say, really? Preach on, brotha, the truth hurts!
The first couple years or so of Asheron's Call had it right. . .fun. What the hell happened since then? Oh yeah. EQ did more numbers, so they went with that model. *Edits himself from further comment* EQ2 is fun though. It has butt-tons of content. I didn't think I'd like it after playing the first one for a few dismal wasted hours I will never get back (sic), but it is pretty fun.
I'm waiting on Hero's Journey. I thought I was waiting on Vanguard too, but it seems only interested in powerful graphics from what I hear. I hope I'm wrong. Pirates looks promising too, but it's all about 1000 quests. . .cool, but it seems the ideals expressed in the first couple years or so of Asheron's Call is a thing of the past.
Hero's Journey is that hope rekindled. I hope it delivers. *Crosses fingers*
I agree with you on most of your points in this statement, but GW has seen a bit of a paradigm shift since that initial campaign. Though it does still focus on casual gamers the most, most end-game has taken a decided shift towards the more hardcore gamers. DoA is a good example. I know it's a elite mission, but you can spend hours just assembling a group to run through. Compare that with FoW or UW, and you can see the shift GW is making.
I think the devs made a necessary step towards becoming a major mmo in a sense. Considering the fact that many hardcore players quit after realizing the endgame content was "found" so easily, they merely deemed the game as monotonous and boring. However, casual gamers would continue to play for the pvp. So, it seems that both types of gamers are in disagreement. While the casual player wants content rather than repetition, the general hardcore gamer strives for a longer journey in reaching that "newfound" content as a reward. The devs want to bring in a wider audience base, henc their decision to change their mechanics in the game.
Comments
EQI treated casual / core players as dirt and eventually paid the price for it.
The days of 90% of you're playerbase keeping the lights on so the other 10% can enjoy the game is no more. truthfully It's laughable how pompus SOE was and quite amazing EQI got away with it for 4 years.
Geez ....let's custom make content for Furor and his band of dopes. Oh and let's make it so the best gear is raid obtained only.
Hmmm..and while were at it let's make sure crafted items are mediocre at best too. We can't have the unwashed masses actually having decent gear or funds. Finally...whenever the pseudo elite whine about classes or content we'll nerff the crap out of them.
Gotta keep that 10% player base happy I tell ya!!!
Gammers finally wised up and now any game released anti casual / core friendly will fail....as well it should.
Make no mistake though.
I'm a firm believer MMO's should offer content for the hardcore player and raiders should garner the best gear. Not the gulf that existed in EQI though. No one should have gear 2-3 times the hitpoints or power of the most casual player. PERIOD
Number one rule in life....NEVER bite the hand that feeds you.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Great article...and very accurate in my opinion.
I think part of the problem in the past has been how expensive it is to produce and maintain a persistant online world. I suspect as the industry continues to grow, hardware continues to become less expensive, and developers become less expensive ...we will see more and more content added and less and less re-hashing of old content. Throw in the increasing competition ...and free enterprise will work it's magic.
You can see the same pattern in cell phones, automobiles, televisions..ect. The first mass produced , affordable automobile came in one style and in one color to keep costs down. Look out your window and you can easily see that is no longer the case. I think the gap between the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer will continue to grow. Niche markets will fill in the gaps and everyone will benefit from the greater variety. That hardcore guild that trys to dominate a mmo with all that hardwork today...may be the same sponsored guild tomarrow getting paid to play and represent whoever sponsors them.
Your first baskeball players, baseball players...the hardcore ones pushed the limits constantly and essentialy help define the game. They weren't payed much if anything at all to do it. They did because some people just do it....it's what they like to do.
I also think their will be ( and already are ) " professional gamers "...sponsored and making a good living playing video games. More of that to come..I'm sure. The industry just graduated from its infant stage and into it's toddler stage....I for one..am excited about the what the future brings in regards to online entertainment.
Yup, you should look at Darkfall.
It's in development, and some here have hinted that it is "akin" to vaporware. Still, by frequenting their forums "casually" you can show support for this format. That being a game that both a casual and hardcore player can enjoy "together".
Warhammer also seems to have some of this possibility of "pick up and play", but to me resembles an MMOfps rather than MMOrpg.
UO and Darkfall seem similar in design, and if you've read my 2nd post in this thread, you may get my idea or understanding of what seperates the play styles in todays games compared to UO as it used to be.
I could example meridan, but never played it.
Bottom line, you need to remove the race to get there first, but without making the accomplishment itself of getting there trivial. The same time and effort should be neccesary, but the reward is more for respect than control or power.
Getting there just opens up more content or facets of the game, and Endgame is not a factor.
Endgame is only a factor in raid/quest/level race games.
Once you get there, it's over...
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
What I listen to
Personally, I think the answer to this conundrum for developers is Player. Created. Content.
Obviously games like WoW couldn't have users making up dungeons. But you could also word it as Player. Driven. Content. Gameplay that finds it's basis in the actions of other players, more than how quickly a player can complete an artificial dev-supplied task.
Gamers are remarkable for their abilities to generate play for themselves. Games that embrace that will give better play experiences for a wider range of players in my opinion. I do not play EVE, but from what I've heard about that game, it appears that the politics BETWEEN players forms a large chunk of what could be considered 'content' as far as the game world goes.
Players ARE the answer. Devs need to see them as a game resource, rather than consumers of content. Games like WoW will always be a treadmill, cause they treat the players like open mouths waiting to be fed. If it takes a long time to cook the next meal, then you need to keep them chewing for a long long time. No wonder some players complain that they've chewed too long, it's now tasteless, their mouth is sore, and they're about to hurl!!
<b>All I have to say is be careful what you wish for.</b>
The reason I play MMO's is for a certain level of complexity and difficulty. As well as the free form nature of play. I've stated this in another thread, time in GAME does not dictate whether you are hardcore or not. I only play a few hours but when I do I try to accomplish as much as I can. So am I hardcore or not?
I don't like the feeling of a treadmill. I don't think anyone does. Even still I don't want an easy game. Call it work. Call it what you want. I like a complex game. If I wanted to be lead by the hand through content I would play more console games. If MMORPG's don't walk a fine line between all of this hardcore vs. casual talk the ganre itself could take a hit. That line goes both ways.
I realize some people find fun in treating their game like a job, like something much more important than 'just a game'. I always thought of myself as a serious gamer due just to the amount of play time I put in. I was really surprised to discover I must be a 'casual' gamer because I just don't get the idea that people should have to work or suffer (aggravation, basically) to make certain kinds of progress in a game. So I don't think it's really just about the time you put in. It's about why you play -- or perhaps whether you consider it play at all.
There's no reason not to have games of both sorts, the ones that require work and ones that are for fun. What can cause problems is trying to please both groups. I play CoH/V and the developers say they consider it a game for casual players, but some of the things they do just make me roll my eyes at that idea. They clearly don't really understand the playing-just-for-the-fun-of-it mentality. Trying to make both groups happy is more likely to just frustrate everybody to some extent.
Until there are good games that are clearly made for one group or the other, I don't think there's any way to really know if the 'casual' player is in the majority or not. One of the problems I see in the MMO world is that nobody actually wants or tries to do something very far from what's been done before (aside from the graphics and story-world they dress it up with). Given the tendencies in the game industry as a whole, it doesn't look like anyone will anytime soon, either.
So games are developed by 'hard-core' gamers who tend to buy into the idea that it's a serious activity, and then to some extent or other they may try to accommodate the 'casual' gamers they clearly have (thinly veiled) contempt for. That 'hard-core' audience is out there, a known quantity, and they're just going to continue focusing on them for fear that a strong 'casual' gamer base isn't there. I think they're wrong, but considering the money it takes to develop a quality game these days, companies are going to stick to what they know.
I agree with you on most of your points in this statement, but GW has seen a bit of a paradigm shift since that initial campaign. Though it does still focus on casual gamers the most, most end-game has taken a decided shift towards the more hardcore gamers. DoA is a good example. I know it's a elite mission, but you can spend hours just assembling a group to run through. Compare that with FoW or UW, and you can see the shift GW is making.
https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/Bleakmage
I'm waiting on Hero's Journey. I thought I was waiting on Vanguard too, but it seems only interested in powerful graphics from what I hear. I hope I'm wrong. Pirates looks promising too, but it's all about 1000 quests. . .cool, but it seems the ideals expressed in the first couple years or so of Asheron's Call is a thing of the past.
Hero's Journey is that hope rekindled. I hope it delivers. *Crosses fingers*
https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/Bleakmage
I think the devs made a necessary step towards becoming a major mmo in a sense. Considering the fact that many hardcore players quit after realizing the endgame content was "found" so easily, they merely deemed the game as monotonous and boring. However, casual gamers would continue to play for the pvp. So, it seems that both types of gamers are in disagreement. While the casual player wants content rather than repetition, the general hardcore gamer strives for a longer journey in reaching that "newfound" content as a reward. The devs want to bring in a wider audience base, henc their decision to change their mechanics in the game.