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Does this answer go against what they have been stating.
Arkdawg
Member Posts: 45
This is from the following article on Curse Gaming http://war-en.curse-gaming.com/previews/745/ea-mythic-press-event-warhammer-online-unleashed/
On Friday the 26th before leaving back to Curse HQ, I got a chance to meet up with Lance Robertson, the Producer of Warhammer Online for some one-on-one questionnaire.
Is this sort of disturbing to anyone else. There have been many many talks about the game not being item centric or geared toward the Hardcore gamers and that PvP would be largely dependent on skills and tactical use of abilities. I agree that if I am a casual gamer, I will naturally advance slower, but will it be hard to compete because I don't/can't put as much time as some hardcore gamer.? I don't care that they reach the higher tiers faster, but will it affect the ability of the more casual gamers to be competitive in end-game RvR like in some other MMO's?
"Q: How big of a difference will the "item power" between casual play and hardcore play be? "
"A: We have not decided on anything specific on this matter yet, but we do feel that a great time investment must yield great gear. "
Comments
Well you have to remember WAR is a MMORPG not a MMOFPS or a MMORTS. As a MMORPG part of the game involes character development, character development is usually messured by experince or gear, and experince or gear is usually messured by time. For that reason its obvious that any MMORPG will have people who spend more time with a edge on those who don't.
The real question is how much of a edge is it. Is it going to be the person who has been on 6 months longer takes on 10 others who haven't, due to the others not being able to hit. Or will it be that person will have a edge up in a 1v1 fight but when it comes to 2v1 they get slaughtered.
Think about it, you take over cities that grants "the best loot in the game". Sounds gear-directed to me.
Yet, as long as there are no automatic LEVEL DIFFERENCES I feel fine with it. I don't wanna use "Unarmed hit 2" against a level 2 opponent and do 20 damage, just to use the same attack on my same level on him again when he's level 10 and do 2 damage
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
I think that is fine.
TBH if I played a game for a year and someone who has only played for a month was as powerful as me i would feel like I was jipped a bit. Getting better is what MMORPG's are all about -
Now should you get so far in front that new characters could never catch up? No that would be silly If that was the case then why would new players bother to even try the game out...
We have not decided on anything specific on this matter yet, but we do feel that a great time investment must yield great gear.
I read this statement as: We still think that we need to have some PvE carrot in our game to encourage continued subscriptions since we do not feel that our game can prosper without it.
At this point in time the impact of gear on the PvP scenario is unknown and pure speculation (as educated as it may be). The idea question on everybody's mind is not if there will be a difference between somebody who can play longer and get better gear, but how big that difference will actually be. The developers simply have to balance end-game and with very popular games that becomes very hard (because like in World of Warcraft so many people are advanving it becomes hard to regulate the gear discrepancies, because while it may be 1 out of 10 has the best gear turn that into millions and you see the problem).
I think if WAR can offer weapons that are cosmetically far superior (massive, glowing blades) with a marginal statical upgrade (+10 damage as opposed to say +100) then they will be on the right road. Allowing players who have spent a large amount of time playing to gain an advantage sounds good, but it should never be so overwhelming that the other player feels they dont have a chance.
That being said as was pointed out I believe a lot of team play will come into work here (unlike World of Warcraft in which only very few classes demand support, most notably the melee classes: Warrior & Rogue).
im assuming that best gear means magic items and magic items/weapons/armor are very very rare in the warhammer world with governments, churches, and the collages of magic holding onto most of the known magic items. that in mind the enemys capital is the heart of that teams governemt and such and thus the best gear could and should be awarded/taken/looted when the enemy capital falls.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
What is really disturbing is that you expect that since you, as the "casual" player, can bring toe nail clippers and "expect and believe" that you can stand a chance against another player, the "hardcore" player, who has a huge ass two-hander. COME ON!! Get real!! Its the "casual" gamer that has deteriated MMOs. The casual gamer now expects that if they invest five hours of time into a game that they should be able to stand a chance against someone who has invested a 100 hours. If you want "even ground" or even a "even chance" go play a FPS because if levels and gear are involved you will never and should never have a even chance.
What is really disturbing is that you expect that since you, as the "casual" player, can bring toe nail clippers and "expect and believe" that you can stand a chance against another player, the "hardcore" player, who has a huge ass two-hander. COME ON!! Get real!! Its the "casual" gamer that has deteriated MMOs. The casual gamer now expects that if they invest five hours of time into a game that they should be able to stand a chance against someone who has invested a 100 hours. If you want "even ground" or even a "even chance" go play a FPS because if levels and gear are involved you will never and should never have a even chance.
No that is wrong. The Hardcore gamer should get their first and faster. But having tons of time to play a game should never make you stronger over the long run.
Example: If it takes you 2 months to hit the level cap and me 1 year. When we both hit the level cap we shold be pretty close in power. The fact that I played 5-10 hours a week and you played 5-10 hours a day shouldn't make a difference.
That is where gear issues come from. If the best gear comes from some form of time intensive raid like system and it is extremely stronger then the rest of the gear out there, then what is the point?
I don't think gear will end up being that big of a difference. Mythic knows they messed up when they made Trials of Atlantis (time intensive gear intensive expansion for DAoC). They will not make that same mistake. I expect the system to be more similiar to early DAoC, when crafted items were the best because they were higher quality then the store bought items. There were mob dropped items that had magic qualities, but a lot of times they weren't as high quality as crafted items. Even when they implemented Shrouded Isles, the raid dungeons were more casual friendly (not as long and could be zerg'ed) and the gear wasn't as much of an improvement.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
What is really disturbing is that you expect that since you, as the "casual" player, can bring toe nail clippers and "expect and believe" that you can stand a chance against another player, the "hardcore" player, who has a huge ass two-hander. COME ON!! Get real!! Its the "casual" gamer that has deteriated MMOs. The casual gamer now expects that if they invest five hours of time into a game that they should be able to stand a chance against someone who has invested a 100 hours. If you want "even ground" or even a "even chance" go play a FPS because if levels and gear are involved you will never and should never have a even chance.
No what is disturbing is that people who spend 40 hours a week playing a game think they should automatically remain superior to someone who has other obligations that restrict him from doing so. I do not expect to bring toenail clippers and beat someone with a two hander. Actually I am not really a casual gamer, I am probably somewhere in the middle at this point in life. Go back and try to comprehend what I actually wrote. Or let me state it again
"It absolutely should take me twice as long to get to the top tiers if I am only playing half as much as the next guy, but when I get there I shouldn't be so overmatched that regardless of how much skill or understanding I have of my abilities, my chances are slim due to gear descrepancy."
Grouping Casual Gamers into people who expect 5 hours of play to net them equal footing as someone who spends 100 hours is BS. I never once said there should be no advantage at all, however that advantage has to start to tail off so that the gap begins to close so that yes, All players have a decent shot at competeing in RvR against equal tier(level) characters. Otherwise you will see a game start to die slowly in some cases and rapidly in others. DaOC is a brilliant example of what happens when you continue to allow time be the biggest contributer to RvR dominance. I love that game, but look what happened to the population following ToA, they lost a very large portion of the games population(Most of which were their casual crowd). I would bet you the # of players that would fall into the casual category (10-15 hr/wk) is vastly larger than any other group of MMO players.
The problem is what does the player who has hit the cap after 2 months do for the next 10 while waiting for more people to catch up? They have to do something and this results in that player working towards improving their character. Which in many MMOs is the aquisition of gear since no more levels can be obtained.
In a game that HAS gear impact the effectiveness of a player it is impossible to prevent a player whose reached the cap from improving their character through the only means they can, obtaining new and more powerful gear. So that once you do catch up said player is vastly superior. Until the developers can reward gamers with something other than gear (that impacts your effectiveness) once they reach the level cap you cannot expect there to be any measure to holding back the hardcore gamer.
Just make sure the power gap never becomes insane (i.e. a player killing another player in two or three shots) while keeping the hardcore player happy with something.
This is exactly the point and "key" if you ask me. In a RvR centric game like Warhammer is going to be Population is extremely important and regardless of what the "hardcore" community, of which I can no longer consicer myself
, the causal crowd has quickly become the largest gaming group. The rewards of RvR are not simply based in gear, there are and should be other rewards. The other great thing with WAR is that all tiers are going to be adding to the overall campaign of RvR, which will encourage those players that reach the top tiers quickest to roll another toon and still be able to participate and contribute to the realms goals. I agree that the players that reach the top fastest should not be sitting and bored, fortuneately there will be enough of them that do it that they will be able to participate in RvR. I look at it like this, the guys that do stuff like reach the highest tier (level) for the goal of doing it the fastest, have a huge reward in being able to see the end game and participate in that content. But, players like me who take 4-6 months to reach those tiers, or longer depending on if I make multiple characters before I settle on one I want to run to top tier first, shouldn't get there and get killed by someone because they have some gear that makes them vastly superior. I mean you can go get your "Shining Godlike blade of skull splitting badness" and look really cool, but fighting isn't simply about the biggest sword. Skills, abilities, and tactical use of those concepts should be considered. Don't let someone kill me simply because he does nothing but play the game. An MMO should not simply be about getting my guy better gear and advancing my character, especially a RvR centric MMO like WAR.
I don't have a problem with heavy time investments being required to get the top end gear. My issue is when only one playstlye leads to the best gear. Raids and raiding guilds and all the crap that goes along with raiding guilds is what I can't stand. The statement that started this thread worries me that this will be yet another game that goes down that path....god I'm so sick of that. I know it didn't specifically refer to PvE raiding and I hope that's not what they were talking about. I guess time will tell. PvE raid grinding really should have no place, certainly no pre-eminence, in a PvP game.
Great time investment/challenges, sure...as long as it is all within the PVE-GROUPING gameplay, I can live with that, you put 1 reward unaccessible through PvE-grouping...and I would change my position toward WAR! (could be restricted to PvP on some servers, but again, it would be a mistake to not appeal to the PvE crowd; at release not after 93 expansions)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think it all depends on how much better, "better" is. I mean, if someone that has twice the time to play the game is twice as good because of loot, it's obviously too far. I'd say as long as there's a chance the 'casual' can beat the 'hardcore', then it's not a problem.
Also, remember that you will not have PvE raid, you can PvP through everything.
What is really disturbing is that you expect that since you, as the "casual" player, can bring toe nail clippers and "expect and believe" that you can stand a chance against another player, the "hardcore" player, who has a huge ass two-hander. COME ON!! Get real!! Its the "casual" gamer that has deteriated MMOs. The casual gamer now expects that if they invest five hours of time into a game that they should be able to stand a chance against someone who has invested a 100 hours. If you want "even ground" or even a "even chance" go play a FPS because if levels and gear are involved you will never and should never have a even chance.
Isn't that how the WoW fanbois justify the fact that purples are the end all be all of PVP? I guess with fans like you this game will turn out to be another shitty WoW clone.
We have not decided on anything specific on this matter yet, but we do feel that a great time investment must yield great gear.
I read this statement as: We still think that we need to have some PvE carrot in our game to encourage continued subscriptions since we do not feel that our game can prosper without it.
there is no "PVE CARROT" you can gain gear by either Crafting, loot from pvp, loot from scenarios & Quests and loot from PVE - There are tons of ways to get top end gear in WAR
SO with a bit of effort anyone will be viable at endgame. If you cant stand putting a little elbow grease in your characters development then maybe you need to stick to regular single player rpgs...
You know... real life is all about perputual character development, does it surprise you that MMORPG's chose to emulate this?
There can be no end to improvement....or what is the point of playing.... (or living for that matter?)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you've logged in for 3 days of game time, but it took you a month to do so, you'd be at the same power level as someone who logged in for 3 days of game time in 4 days.
So basically if you're hardcore you'll reach higher end gear faster, but that doesn't mean that casual players won't eventually make it to the same place, they'll just have to put in the same amount of game time.
To take this to mean that a person that puts in 8 hours straight will be more powerful than someone that puts in 8 hours over 2 days I think is reading into it too much.
More time = further into the game = further into the content = further into the item progression.
I don't think they meant any more or less than what is stated.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.
If you have spent 10 times more time in the game then Joe Casual you should be able to beat him with your skills alone. There shouldn't be a need for you to be handed uber weapons to do the job for you. Or is the superiour equipment/weapons needed to make up for some short comings perhaps?
I dont mind people getting rewards for achievments, after all we are all playing to improve and develpe our characters while playing. I dont mind if people who play more gets rewarded at a faster pace then casuals. But if WAR turns out to be anything like WOW (havent playded BC, so lets say WOW pre BC heh) where a person (raider) can have twice the stats than casuals (non raider)....then I guess I misunderstood what WAR was all about. What a shame!
You know... real life is all about perputual character development, does it surprise you that MMORPG's chose to emulate this?
There can be no end to improvement....or what is the point of playing.... (or living for that matter?)
Hmm... Uhh... Well, no. Unless you are a Budhist I really don't see how real life is specifically about perpetual character development. Different people want different things out of life. Regardless, I don't think that philosophies of human existence are within the scope of this thread.
What I see most MMO designers emulating is the arguably base, but effective for profit, formula of appealing to people's sense of materialism. IMO this is fine for a PvE game but questionable for one that is based on PvP. As others have suggested the availability of 'better' gear is probably ok as long as there are diminishing returns such that the discrepancy is not that large. However, the quote posted was: 'we do feel that a great time investment must yield great gear.' Great yields great, so spend twice as much time and your gear will be twice as good? Maybe that is not the way the statement was meant but that is the way that I read it.
What is the point in playing if there is no end to improvement? Ever play Archon, One on One, Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, or Mortal Combat? These are examples of PvP games where all sides were on equal footing that many people found enjoyable. What happened to playing for fun? It seems that nowadays as soon as a game idea is ported to an MMO format, the focus of the game becomes the building of one's toon; the gameplay always takes the back seat...
PvP games are competitive. Consequently people will only continue to play if they believe that they have a reasonable chance of winning. If Mythic is going to implement uber gear and make it exclusive to hardcore players then they should advise casual gamers not to play. Of course they won't for financial reasons.