MMOs should not have futuristic/extreme graphics.

Almanegras · February 2007

Single player games yea, online FPS yea, stratigie games yea, action/slash rpgs yea. mmorpgs that rely on grouping NO! with making extreme graphics you are now hurting your playerbase it may come to a suprise but not every one is running around with Godlike computers.

Hell i play a radeon 9550 256 ram, pent 4 3.00 ghz 2 cpu 1 gig of ram, im not complaining cause i play vanguard with 15-20 fps on balanced but im complaining because high requirements for comps hurts the grouping aspect. With less people playing vanguard due to the hi need for a good comp its hard finding many groups through out the game if your a DPS you can forget finding a group because most of the low player base is either DPS or bloodmage/shaman. Only classes that are rare are tanks and vanguard did tanks completely wrong in the game.

Now lets take EVE/WoW/GWs for example all look great but dont require a awesome computer to play and they have a nice steady playerbase. You think people play these mmorpgs cause they are OMG so fun? Yes they are fun but they have a better playerbase then most because of the low requirement for a awesome comp.

Now lets take EQ2 some say EQ2 is dying, no EQ2 is a good game now the playerbase isnt that great due to it requires a great comp. Now they come along and give us vanguard which is like 10x comp reliant then EQ2 is?! come on now stop giving us Shiney graphics and start working on gameplay and preformance so every one can play.

DuraheLL · February 2007

OP:

Amen!

This is so true it's sad.

MMORPG's are made to play with other people yet it becomes more and more strain. Get a better computer or don't be able to play.

Also, the most idiotic thing with MMORPG's is that they contain TONS of TONS of content which fights against YOU playing together with other people! Let's take a look at some classic ones:

- Different servers (There's always different servers. Seems to hard to make it so that everyone can play with anyone)

- Server Categories (PvP servers, RP servers and PvE servers. They never find a way so that all can fit into one server)

- Levels (The stoneage ground for a RP game back in the days where skills could not be a fact and levels had to be a replacement system instead. Sadly this system hangs around today aswell screening off players as they are not allowed to play together due to level differences)

- Classes (Also a stoneage system that makes you receive one role in the game and to be able to succeed you must collect all different pieces of different classes in one group to be able to succeed. If you are a healer and your ally is a healer then you might not be able to play together due to there being to many healers in the group).

boblibob · February 2007

Ok, im going to disagree,

"Futuristic" and "Extreme" graphics.

These graphics are not "futuristic" they are here now, and many gamers demand them, it's why people spends thousands of dollars on PC's.

I built my current PC last years for £1000, its currently at about £600 due to the drop in AMD and ATI technology. And this PC plays Vanguard, Oblivion etc etc all on full spec.

if you're curious,

AMD 64 X2 4400+

ATI X1900 XTX

2GB Platinum OCZ Ram

ASUS Ax8 v2.0 motherboard

Sound card, case, dvd drive etc etc.

Now I can see your point,many people have an OLD pc, I mean, seriously they must have. My pc previous to this rig I had for 2 years. so 2004. and that was similar to your pc almanegras.

And that PC ran oblivion on med specs at 30fps.

So i'm betting most people who complain about there pc's, probably have pc from around 2003 to 2004 that are mid spec. Which is nothing by todays standards.

And that is where the bulk of these Complaints come from, people who think " i have a pc i should be able to play new games "

PC's much like consoles need to be upgraded, i dont see you complaining that your XBOX 360 games wont play on your XBOX.

Things move forward. It seems blatantly obvious from the responces in general that many people do not understand this.

Just because its not a PC 2 or a PC360 or whatever generic label, its just a PC people seem to believe they dont need to upgrade.

Now I can see your point, but I dont think punishing people with high end PC's is the problem. I think its more of a case of providing lower graphical settings for people who dont, but many people will see the "640x480 low setting" as an insult to there PC and then guess what they do, they complain "this game is too high spec" blah blah blah.

The thing is graphics make up for alot of immersiveness. Its why I cannot physically play WoW. I'm not saying WoW is ugly, alot of people like that art style. But it is graphically on par with about an N64/PS1 game. And that kills immersion for me, Running through ironforge and seeing what loooks like smoothed off lego bricks the size of people with little to no texturing makes me feel like im playing a game and kills the immersion.

But i digress.

Games should simply have the opportunity for people with a varied machines to play.But the people with older machines will always complain when they have to click "low settings" and get an inferiority complex.

Almanegras · February 2007

People with newer PCs shouldnt be punished also i agree there needs to be a middle ground lets face it SOE is pushing out games for people ONLY with high end machines is this fair? I dont think so, yes there is a option in vanguard for high preformance but it looks like a 10 year old scribbled on it. The people with the higher end machines are not the populace of the market and im sorry to say mmorpgs should not be catered to you it should be catered to people with low-mid comps.

SOE/Sigil needs to make their games better for the lower end comps first then worry about high end later they did it backwards and messed up.

Almanegras · February 2007

and even if i did have a high end rig you have to look at this from a grouping stand point. When a game has a low population and grouping is a MUST to advance many people are going to wish this game didnt have high spec req.

Valorus · February 2007

The problem is people with machines that cannot handle games on high settings think that the world needs to bend to them. There has not been a game to date that has forgotten about people with older computers. you can play any game just fine, but choose to rant and rave because you cannot run on high settings. It's no ones fault you have to play on lower settings and I for one find threads like this one mind blowing.

I for one think people who create topics such as these should not be allowed to post. Period. Go get a job, a second job, save your allowance, beg your wife/mother/father or do whatever you need to do to in order for you to upgrade because with each passing day your machine will run less and less and the wheels of advancement are not going to stand still for you just because you think it should be one way and not the other.

If your having trouble playing games released today you have no hope for games released tomorrow. SOE is not pushing out games for people with high end PC. They are simply planning for the future when people do get higher end machines to be able to crank up the settings and get more out the game look wise.

Vanillatea · February 2007

Actually, the better the graphics the happier I usually am with the game. And I say this with the graphics card my computer came with.

You have a point that not everyone does like it and it might reduce the player population, but I'm still cheering for improved graphics for future mmorpgs. I hate it when I can actually count the polygons.

boblibob · February 2007

Originally posted by Valorus

The problem is people with machines that cannot handle games on high settings think that the world needs to bend to them. There has not been a game to date that has forgotten about people with older computers. you can play any game just fine, but choose to rant and rave because you cannot run on high settings. It's no ones fault you have to play on lower settings and I for one find threads like this one mind blowing.
I for one think people who create topics such as these should not be allowed to post. Period. Go get a job, a second job, save your allowance, beg your wife/mother/father or do whatever you need to do to in order for you to upgrade because with each passing day your machine will run less and less and the wheels of advancement are not going to stand still for you just because you think it should be one way and not the other.
If your having trouble playing games released today you have no hope for games released tomorrow. SOE is not pushing out games for people with high end PC. They are simply planning for the future when people do get higher end machines to be able to crank up the settings and get more out the game look wise.

This is EXACTLY my point

" I cant Play this BRAND NEW GAME on my OLD PC on FULL SETTINGS.

I can only Play on LOW SETTINGS"

mix in a bit of an inferioty complex

" I'm going to post on forums that people with high end PC's should be Ignored!"

And there is a solid reason why Vanguard looks - by todays standards - CRAP on an old pc.

Its because, and you might believe this, its because you have an OLD pc.

So if you can't run a game on full, its no-ones fault but your own.

Signe · February 2007

As long as the game settings are flexilble and can be configured, why not push it to the limit? I'm with Vanillatea on this one. The better my game looks, the happier I am to play it. (well, the game has to be good, too.

)

Almanegras · February 2007

1. my pc isnt crap

2. it isnt old

3. I run vanguard just fine and graphics still look good i made the topic stating this. This was towards the grouping aspect and more people = more grouping.

joeshmoe · February 2007

And also saying that MMOs shouldnt be so graphically demanding for people with older PCs because it would hurt the people playing the game with high end PCs in the long run is also kind of a contradiction in itself because if they did make games like that, then sure, the people with low end PCs would be able to play, but look at it from the other side. The ones with high end rigs would be like "well shoot, I just made this thing so I can play those visually demanding games more smoothly. Why would I want to play this piece of crap?" Sorry but ya gotta change with the times if ya want to keep up to date.

exanimo · February 2007

ridiculus
the reason you cant play new mmos with your old computer is not becose of the grafics , its internet connection and server upload speed that suc .
you pay 15$ a month to have 10 sec lag spikes ... enjoy

boblibob · February 2007

Originally posted by Almanegras

3. I run vanguard just fine and graphics still look good i made the topic stating this. This was towards the grouping aspect and more people = more grouping.

And i commented on this, vanguard runs fne on older machines with the settings down. So that completely rules out your argument that high end graphical games lower the community.

The problem IS THE COMUNITY. refusing to play a game because they cant tick the "maximum settings" box.

You yourself have an older machine.

You Play Vanguard

You say people shouldnt make high end games because it lowers the community.

You are Living proof that You are wrong.

joeshmoe · February 2007

Yep, and the graphics of future games sure as hell aint gonna regress. Theyll get more and more graphically demanding untill we can jack into the matrix via the hole in the back of our heads, hehe.

Chieftan · February 2007

Originally posted by boblibob

Originally posted by Almanegras

3. I run vanguard just fine and graphics still look good i made the topic stating this. This was towards the grouping aspect and more people = more grouping.

And i commented on this, vanguard runs fne on older machines with the settings down. So that completely rules out your argument that high end graphical games lower the community.

The problem IS THE COMUNITY. refusing to play a game because they cant tick the "maximum settings" box.

You yourself have an older machine.

You Play Vanguard

You say people shouldnt make high end games because it lowers the community.

You are Living proof that You are wrong.

That makes absolutely zero sense.

The system requirements are just part of a compound problem for Vanguard. Another reason why the game isn't selling is because there's been alot of bad word of mouth about it ever since it went into beta last year. Everything from bugs and general incompleteness has discouraged alot of people from even trying it, let alone buy it. Plus WoW has heightened everyone's expectations for MMOs and Vanguard does not measure up to alot of the standards set by WoW. Launching the game a couple weeks after TBC didn't help either.

nitefly · February 2007

All Players will have to take a multitude of aspects into consideration before joining a MMO (any MMO, not just Vanguard) and one of them should logically be: "Can my computer handle this?"

If the answer is "No", the next question is: "Do I still want to play this game?" If the answer to that question is "Yes" then an upgrade is needed. All game developers worth their salt will try to prepare for the future and unless you're specifically aiming to include the low end computer population (like for instance WoW, not a flame but a technical fact) you have to take the need for better graphics into the equation.

For instance, I tried Anarchy Online for the first time a couple of months ago. My thoughts were: You have got to be kidding me.

Vanguard is pushing the envelope currently but any new computer worth buying can run it on high settings while looking stunning.

And at the end of the day the message to those saying "I can't play this game properly on my PC" is: "Then this game is not for you".

The statement that high specs scare away people is simply silly. I know it sounds like I'm mocking you but I'm really not. A few people might decide to play something else but today the standard gamer is financially pretty well off (at least statistically speaking) and a lot of us gamers have jobs where a new computer is not exactly a huge investment, I mean, if you buy a new or heavily upgrade every 6-8 months, you should need no more than 600-900$ to keep up with the games.

CleffyII · February 2007

Its common to develop games for older machines. Like 3~5 year old mid-range machines. Vanguard didn't do that at all. They wasted polies, and wasted textures. They are populating the screen with over 500k polies and 1000 draw calls and they wonder where the performance hit is; at the same time they flood the memory bank with multi-meg uncompressed poorly done textures.

The latest and greatest single player games today are actually playable on a machine 5 years old. Future mmos with the same technology and graphical detail as vanguard are also playable on those same old machines. It was just poor planning and management on the side of Sigil.

Greek_Matt · February 2007

`Dumbing down' a game graphically (or in other performance aspects) is something that a Developer company may or may not choose to do in order to increase its user base. Korean MMO Granado Espada ('porting to English under the name Sword of the New World this summer) have written two comlpete sets of graphic code - one of course with all the bells and whistles for modern systems, the other which allows lower-end users to play the game smoothly at lower rez, but without having to sacrifice all the detail and `feel' of the game. It's an ingenious marketing move to be sure, but it's also one that takes a lot of forward thinking, planning and extra resources. For a game like Vanguard, which struggled to meet even low performance expectations at launch, this approach would be little more than a pipe dream.

I'm sure you're right, increasing your potential player base can't be a mistake, and if (like G.E.) you can do it without sacrificing the quality for high-end users then it's a win-win scenario. All it needs is a bit more smart coding and a bit less rushed bloatware... but then that's the dream we all dream of.

Nyast · February 2007

Originally posted by Almanegras

1. my pc isnt crap

2. it isnt old

3. I run vanguard just fine and graphics still look good i made the topic stating this. This was towards the grouping aspect and more people = more grouping.

I bought a P4 2.8 Ghz, 1 Gb of RAM and a Radeon 9700 in February 2002. It was a pretty high-end config at that time.

Let me count.. yeah.. that's exactly 5 years old. You're playing on a system that's almost 5 years old. Of course, if you bought such a system for a low price 2 years ago, you wouldn't call it "old", but all its components are ( maybe with the exception of the cpu ).

Yet you can play Vanguard just fine with "ok" graphics..

The conclusion is that Vanguard scales pretty well down to very old configs.

Garrik · February 2007

I have to agree with the OP even though im currently in the process of getting a super computer i still agree 100%.

Its great to see games are stepping up more and more graphics wise, but i also think that companies are trying to hard to get amazing eye candy and forgetting about good programming. Thats the worst part, bad programming, its fine having great graphics that most computers will run but if the game is badly programmed its going to play sloppy on anything no matter what.

I like seeing nice graphics, to me for 3D lineage 2 graphics are fine and even they are classed as dated now. The one thing i did or do hate, was when we first saw the turn to 3D, the graphics where so blocky and chunky that Isometric 2D games looked a hell of alot smoother and realistic and they ran better. Its like when Shadowbane came out, Isometric games where still being released then and they looked 10x better than the chunky block filled world that UBI Soft created for Shadowbane.

I understand what the OP means, these super eye candy games are becoming more and more regular now and people just are not willing to pay £2000 just to be able to play the games in question.

Garrik

Jackdog · February 2007

Some games and some game engines are just better optimized than others is all. I am in the beta of two games both of which are due out in the next 6 months and both have very nice graphics, even nicer than a game which was recently released. Both of these games run easily on older machines. I agree with the OP though, if a company wants people to buy their game they should design it so that gamers can play it and have it look good on a variety of machines, it is possible to do.

cerebrix · February 2007

the lack of understanding of computers and 3d technology in this thread is staggering.

i could explain why things are the way they are with regards to this issue but frankly, none of you would understand it so I wont even bother.

in "user" speak its like this.....

in pc gaming you either learn to upgrade with the six to eight month product cycle the video card companies are on, or you dont pc game. if money is the issue preventing this, buy a console, or alternatively, get a job that can afford you to be a pc gamer. its a niche market and is not for everyone.

the constitution doesnt afford you the "right to game on the pc"

and no... life isn't fair. sooner you learn that, the better off you'll be.

sounds harsh i know, but thats reality kids....

Jackdog · February 2007

Originally posted by cerebrix

the lack of understanding of computers and 3d technology in this thread is staggering.

i could explain why things are the way they are with regards to this issue but frankly, none of you would understand it so I wont even bother.

in "user" speak its like this.....
in pc gaming you either learn to upgrade with the six to eight month product cycle the video card companies are on, or you dont pc game. if money is the issue preventing this, buy a console, or alternatively, get a job that can afford you to be a pc gamer. its a niche market and is not for everyone.
the constitution doesnt afford you the "right to game on the pc"

and no... life isn't fair. sooner you learn that, the better off you'll be.

sounds harsh i know, but thats reality kids....

sorry but reality is if a game company wants their product to sell they cannot design it only for elitists. Henry Ford knew that and designed the model T for the middle class, Blizzard knew it and made WoW so it could run on a hand me down computer. Cryptic and those 2 games in beta are two other game makers that also realize it. However I can think of one large company that seems doomed to repeat the same old mistakes over and over and over.

Garrik · February 2007

Originally posted by cerebrix
the lack of understanding of computers and 3d technology in this thread is staggering.

i could explain why things are the way they are with regards to this issue but frankly, none of you would understand it so I wont even bother.

in "user" speak its like this.....
in pc gaming you either learn to upgrade with the six to eight month product cycle the video card companies are on, or you dont pc game. if money is the issue preventing this, buy a console, or alternatively, get a job that can afford you to be a pc gamer. its a niche market and is not for everyone.
the constitution doesnt afford you the "right to game on the pc"

and no... life isn't fair. sooner you learn that, the better off you'll be.

sounds harsh i know, but thats reality kids....

Wow that must be the most arrogent post iv seen today. If someone cant afford it they cant afford it simple as. Who the hell are you to start giving people life lessons saying what they should and should not do. Some people cant get high paid jobs, you cant stand there and tell them not to use a PC for gaming because they dont have enough cash to upgrade every six months, thats BS. Now im fortunate i can afford it but i find your attitude obsolutly disgusting.

Before posting next time try dropping you elitist views.

Greek_Matt · February 2007

Originally posted by cerebrix

the lack of understanding of computers and 3d technology in this thread is staggering.

i could explain why things are the way they are with regards to this issue but frankly, none of you would understand it so I wont even bother.

in "user" speak its like this.....
in pc gaming you either learn to upgrade with the six to eight month product cycle the video card companies are on, or you dont pc game. if money is the issue preventing this, buy a console, or alternatively, get a job that can afford you to be a pc gamer. its a niche market and is not for everyone.
the constitution doesnt afford you the "right to game on the pc"

and no... life isn't fair. sooner you learn that, the better off you'll be.

sounds harsh i know, but thats reality kids....

Keep wallowing in your own ego while reality passes you by. The population of users/gamers who upgrade their rig every 6-8 months trying to kee up with the graphics card companies represents a tiny niche market which no developer in their right mind would pitch solely at. The reason most MMO games ship with bleeding-edge graphics is so that hopefully in a year or two, when that technology is in the mainstream, the game won't look dated and under-spec'd since their business model relies on people continuing to pay for it over that time-frame at least. The exclusivity you preach is unnecessary, the product of lazy coding. Giving people the option to play a game without needing to see ALL the special effects, but still running smoothly with clean animation, is a sensible and obvious business model that hugely broadens your market base. It only fails when games are rushed, and as we're seeing with Vanguard lost revenue is the the natural consequence.

Zarraa · February 2007

Originally posted by cerebrix

the lack of understanding of computers and 3d technology in this thread is staggering.
i could explain why things are the way they are with regards to this issue but frankly, none of you would understand it so I wont even bother.
in "user" speak its like this.....
in pc gaming you either learn to upgrade with the six to eight month product cycle the video card companies are on, or you dont pc game. if money is the issue preventing this, buy a console, or alternatively, get a job that can afford you to be a pc gamer. its a niche market and is not for everyone.
the constitution doesnt afford you the "right to game on the pc"
and no... life isn't fair. sooner you learn that, the better off you'll be.
sounds harsh i know, but thats reality kids....

While perhaps a bit harsh, I must say Cerebix is correct.

I was working on a multi skew title 3 years ago for X-Box, PS2 & PC (the title was a bit racy so no Gamecube). One of The biggest pains was trying to dumb down the PC version because of a miriad of settups. You know the story, some have the latest greatest while others milk all they can form a 4-5 year old systems.

It's high time people think of their gamming PC's like platform systems because I assure you publishers are.Companies are going to try and push the envelope and push those systems to the hilt both graphicly and Audio wise (claps for audio).

In short get used to it.

Frankly the thought of playing something that looks like WOW two years from now is ludicrous. Just Imagine what XBOX360 & PS3 games will be pushing. Remember these new systems are ALL internet ready.

So unless you want the MMO genre to eventually go console you better wake up. WOW has brought allot of platform gammers to the dance. In order to keep them here companies will have to bring the noise in all aspects.

Cutting edge graphics & audio are here to stay folks might as well upgrade those 3-4 year old systems.

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