The issue with that idea is that MMORPGs aiming to make players play mainly one character as its supposed to be Role Playing game. How can you role play few at the time? Role playing isnt something you must do its simply how you feel in the world. When I log into the game and if it feels like being in different world then you're already role playing by imagining your self being elsewhere but around your computer. By allowing PD players will loose their connection with that imagined fantasy world when their character dies.
Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any).
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
Well, the whole point of PD is to make players value their lives. WoW for example is complete opposite. You die so whats the big deal. It only cost you your time thats it which allows players not to be afraid to explore the world.
Death Penalty In my believe is the compromising thing. Getting your corpse back is like another quest which always keep you on the edge of your sit.
Here is different variations of Death Penalty:
1. You lose some XP (like in old school MMOs);
2. You get some vitae (skill penalty which requires XP in order to clear);
3. You lose all your gained loot;
4. Its expensive to get resurrected;
5. You become a ghost and must complete quest or fight back with other ghosts in order to get to your corpse;
6. Your character become immortal zombie with PvP status against your alive party members lol ;
7. You must stop playing and take out trash ;
8. You go down in standings;
9. You cannot play that character for an hour;
10. If you died while on the quest you cannot comeback to that quest for 24 hours;
11. If you died in PvP you got all your staff looted;
12. If you died in PvP AND got all your staff looted you can place bounty on your opponent... hmm sorry that was off topic ;
13. You loosing your title whichever that is;
14. Your armor and weapons get broken and become useless until you get it fixed;
15. Your mount doesnt want to know you for a while and runs away as it doesnt like the way you smell... dead people do smell dont they
Plenty of solutions alright. Game companies just need to start employing people with imagination.
Ok, I had to respond to this. What do levels and gear dependancy have to do with roleplay? Getting rid of those two things wouldn't remove roleplay, in fact I think the oppisite is true, it would make roleplay more likely. It's the focus on level and loot grinding and the linear static nature of these games which level systems require that is largely responsible for killing roleplaying. I mean what sort of roleplaying does camping a group of static spawns promote? Sitting there killing the same things over and over again. And what roleplay rational can you come up with to explain that? Especially when you are just grinding for experience? Even if you ignore the glaring artificiality of the situation and try to roleplay despite the non-roleplayish nature of the exp. grinding, even then there isn't any substance to provide fodder for roleplaying. You have nothing roleplayish to talk about.... Wannabe roleplayer: "Oh, the Orc captain just re-spawned. Maybe he'll have the Mace of Whacking this time. Oh and...uh...LOOK OUT THERE'S A BAND OF ORCS AHEAD IN YONDER GLADE!!" Party member: "Dude stfu up. You say that every time they respawn. We KNOW there's a band of Orcs there. We've killed them all 50 times already." How does this promote roleplaying? And then there is the linear nature of these games which will ALWAYS exist as long as there are major power differences between less developed and more developed characters. Think of the difference between a level one character and a max level character in most games. First; it doesn't make any sense why two member of the same species would be so radically different. Second; it requires that the game world be broken up into distinct level-appropriate areas. So instead of one consistant world you end up with a fragmented world of level 1-5 areas, level 6-10 areas, 11-20 areas, and so on. What roleplay sense does that make and how does it promote roleplaying? And this forces a very linear playing experience because you have to progress your character through level appropriate areas. You have to go grind through a 1-5 area first, then move to a 6-10 area, and so on following the predetermined path that was layed out for you. How the hell does that promote roleplaying? Levels and gear dependancy don't promote roleplaying. Those things kill roleplaying. Because then the imaginary person or alter ego nature of our characters becomes more and more irrelevant and our characters become little more than a collection of stats and numbers. The numbers matter more than the personality. Personal motivations give way to the overriding motivation to boost the numbers.
Good point, and I agree.
But I was not talking about roleplaying as doing good old PnP roleplaying, I was talking about the definition of computer roleplaying games, and that has always been character progress in some way or another.
Get rid of character progress and the game looses the aspect of being a roleplaying game, by definition.
Roleplay as you describe it can be done in any game, regardless of genre.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You lost me, been trying to follow and read all posts in here.
Roleplay is just that Roleplay. Just like playing a part/role in a play.... You are one of many in the story that brings it to life and makes it unique.
Character progress is the MMO industries answer to how to keep players playing for extended periods of time and to forcably limit the how fast you can explore their world.... had noting to do with roleplay.
In a game that has no quests, has no spawn camping for uber gear or levels and skills, The players(actors) would make the story. The story of the land is writen as we the players make it not the way the devs wrote it before we even started playing.
One example would be, the town of Hammerfell(guild) has used all its resources, in order to survive (feed and clothe their people)they must find a new area to exploit. The closest area is in the valley just to the south where the town of Vallengar(guild) is located. These two towns have enjoyed relative peace till now but that is about to change in one fatefull night... (then the story unfolds) Imagine then that you are one of the survivors of the raid on your town , your town lost many brave souls that night, whatever town you move to next you will pass on the story and the warning of the Hammerfells actions that night and their deception.
And it goes on and on, a continously growing story that unfolds by our, the players, actions or inactions(thats leads to good roleplay), not the devs predesigned quests that guide you throught the whole game, or levels that seporate the community into only small groups(of like levels) that can compete equaly in PVP...
The issue with that idea is that MMORPGs aiming to make players play mainly one character as its supposed to be Role Playing game. How can you role play few at the time? Role playing isnt something you must do its simply how you feel in the world. When I log into the game and if it feels like being in different world then you're already role playing by imagining your self being elsewhere but around your computer. By allowing PD players will loose their connection with that imagined fantasy world when their character dies.
Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any).
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
Well, the whole point of PD is to make players value their lives. WoW for example is complete opposite. You die so whats the big deal. It only cost you your time thats it which allows players not to be afraid to explore the world.
Death Penalty In my believe is the compromising thing. Getting your corpse back is like another quest which always keep you on the edge of your sit.
Here is different variations of Death Penalty:
1. You lose some XP (like in old school MMOs);
2. You get some vitae (skill penalty which requires XP in order to clear);
3. You lose all your gained loot;
4. Its expensive to get resurrected;
5. You become a ghost and must complete quest or fight back with other ghosts in order to get to your corpse;
6. Your character become immortal zombie with PvP status against your alive party members lol ;
7. You must stop playing and take out trash ;
8. You go down in standings;
9. You cannot play that character for an hour;
10. If you died while on the quest you cannot comeback to that quest for 24 hours;
11. If you died in PvP you got all your staff looted;
12. If you died in PvP AND got all your staff looted you can place bounty on your opponent... hmm sorry that was off topic ;
13. You loosing your title whichever that is;
14. Your armor and weapons get broken and become useless until you get it fixed;
15. Your mount doesnt want to know you for a while and runs away as it doesnt like the way you smell... dead people do smell dont they
Plenty of solutions alright. Game companies just need to start employing people with imagination.
Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.
Many also do not consider that there is TWO types of perma-death mmorpgs.
1. PvE permadeath.
2. PvP permadeath.
PvE perma-death in an online game has been proven to work, and proven to be doable. The insanely successfull Diablo 2 is the most obvious example. There IS a market for perma-death in an online game. And, it is big enough to be successful. The nitch mmorpg, and only mmorpg with permadeath, Strive for Power, is the next example that shows and proves permadeath in an online game works, and is doable.
Diablo 2 is roughly 75% level based/ 25% skill based. At maximum level (level 99) it can be said to be 50% skill based/50% level based, since the skill trees and skill branches chosen really do make a difference at the very highest levels. SfP is one of the few mmorpgs that is truely, truely, based on real table top Dungeons and Dragons. Skills are RANDOMLY ROLLED. SfP is roughly 50% Level Based/50% Skill Based. But players do not have as much of a choice what skills to pick - it is the "DICE" that decides.
PvP permadeath in an online game cannot work. It is near impossible. Play Runescape and go to the far northern wilderness area. It does not matter how uber a player is, or even if the player can slay other players in 1-2 hits. They will get killed by other players. One possible solution to make PvP permadeath a playable feature, is only 2 players can battle each other at the same time. And after the battle, no one can attack the winner until they are at full health, and signal they are ready. The winner cannot attack anyone either until signalling they are ready.
Soooo......... any discussion about perma-death in a mmorpg is moot, since it has already been successfully done! The real question is, should more mmorpgs have PvE perma-death servers?!? And if they do not have any, then you perma-death lovers should start posting on their forums, and list the above 2 examples showing permadeath works.
Permadeath is why I played Diablo 2 for so long. Play on hardcore mode and be careful about everything, it adds a whole new level of depth to the gameplay. Of course I eventually gave up on it due to fuckers with hacks killing your high level chars in the lamest possible ways. I would DEFINATELY be interested in another game featuring perma-death.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar You cannot have an MMO with permadeath and expect people to: A) keep playing after they have died if they care about their character or keep paying for a game when they don't care about their character.
Doesn't the average player have several characters in any given game already though? Suppose you have ten characters that you play at different times for different reasons: different level-ranges of adventure, different classes/roles, different sorts of challenges. That is, when you're in the mood for X then you play character A. When you're in the mood for Y then you play character B.
Maybe there's one you play more than others, but still... you're attached to all of them, right?
Isn't character death in that case about 1/10th the impact as if you only had one character?
What if the main character, the one other players really considered to be "you" or your "main", sat home on a throne and never risked perma-death: sending those other nine characters out to adventure and risk their lives for his advancement?
If i was for a very long time against perma death, i was sick only thinking about it honestly, i even tended to ovoid playing game with too harsh death rule. With time i can say i totally changed my point of view.
I'm waiting for a game implementing Pd, and i will certainly try it. In fact i think the main reason mmo genre is stuck in an end road is because of the lack of PD, and all the environment going with it. Because the endless gathering of goods, level, experience or whatever is becoming insane, and on the long run give lot more frustration than it seam to ovoid at first glance. And this frustration come from both side, players that get sick of mmo genre in general, and dev that have at every generation unsolvable problems caused by this endless aspect of gaming.
Also i think that developers that would come to consider a pding game, would have to totally change the rules and laws of the mmo genre in general. Because having character that can die would ask totally other ways to evolve, fight, heal, to only talk about the obvious ones. All of this would have to be reinvented to give sense to such a game (well maybe not reinvented, after there is a bunch of game having unique way of fighting, progressing, healing...). The only concept of having to fight mob to progress with your character would have to be totally revisited imo.
Also i will compare the mmo market with the comic market, as it is clear mmo market didn't reach the maturity to give a product for the older players and rpers in general (take into consideration that those that rped 10 or 20 years ago are maybe not the hard core rpers of todays). I sure hope it will come fast. Anyway you can now find a plethora of good comics that aren't meant to be read by 10 years old kids, so it will also happen to mmos.
So for me if perma death is possible it is only in that context, and for that commercial target. And here come the problems, you need totally unseen yet logical systems to support the PD, yet you need to ovoid the hard core hyper realistic rules because well those wanting such games do work, and can't play 12hours a day and can't be possessed by their character. A big challenge.
Perma-Death is just like FFA PvP servers, but worrse and with no logic. I die and can't play my character again. Okay, but then I'll just make another character and grind my way back up. The only time Perma-Death would actually mean something if the game had 40 or more levels, the best equipment takes a long time to get, I couldn't grind my way to max level or do a speed run on a dungeon I've done before. I understand PD is suppose to enforce group play, but once you understand the shortcuts of this game, you'll the penalties don't matter as much.
Now, if you want something that better than perma-death then try XP penalties or armor deterioration.
It seems there are two distinct ends of the spectrum. At one end you have evolution of a character and at the other you have jumping right into battle. This kind of sounds like comparing World of Warcraft to Counter Strike, doesn't it? I love both games and play them for different reasons - actually I play Day of Defeat rather than CS, but there basically the same. Maybe it's time for an MMO to evolve into something in the middle? Maybe when you die, other players can loot your body! Wouldn't that be a trip?
Maybe I enjoy a tad of carebearing or something but I dont know the idea of paying around 15 dollars a month to play a game where all my hard work could go down the drain because of either 1. a mistake I made. 2. A game mistake / mishap or 3. some other jerk's mistake doesn't sound appealing. I mean playing Diablo 2 hardcore mode with perma death was one thing atleast I wasn't paying monthly for that.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
ok, in the article, i'd like to address a couple of items...
retrospectic is iffy about the idea of a level-less mmo...
ultima online, old school swg (pre stupidity), ryzom (it has skill levels, but not player class levels), and i'm sure others. any game where i can determine the path my character takes, and/or change it as we go along, is a definite plus.
umbrood talks about 'if you do away with levels and gear dependancy, you remove the rp from mmorpg.' ...
i have to disagree with this, to the point that i believe the opposite is true. levels and gear dependancy are seriously the downfall of the rp in mmorpgs. what great book/movie was based upon gear? is a jedi a hero because of the light saber? is a sithlord a villain because of a light saber? which genre bases the heroes and villains upon a never ending progression of better gear?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any).
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
Well, the whole point of PD is to make players value their lives. WoW for example is complete opposite. You die so whats the big deal. It only cost you your time thats it which allows players not to be afraid to explore the world.
Death Penalty In my believe is the compromising thing. Getting your corpse back is like another quest which always keep you on the edge of your sit.
Here is different variations of Death Penalty:
1. You lose some XP (like in old school MMOs);
2. You get some vitae (skill penalty which requires XP in order to clear);
3. You lose all your gained loot;
4. Its expensive to get resurrected;
5. You become a ghost and must complete quest or fight back with other ghosts in order to get to your corpse;
6. Your character become immortal zombie with PvP status against your alive party members lol
7. You must stop playing and take out trash
8. You go down in standings;
9. You cannot play that character for an hour;
10. If you died while on the quest you cannot comeback to that quest for 24 hours;
11. If you died in PvP you got all your staff looted;
12. If you died in PvP AND got all your staff looted you can place bounty on your opponent... hmm sorry that was off topic
13. You loosing your title whichever that is;
14. Your armor and weapons get broken and become useless until you get it fixed;
15. Your mount doesnt want to know you for a while and runs away as it doesnt like the way you smell... dead people do smell dont they
Plenty of solutions alright. Game companies just need to start employing people with imagination.
_________________________________
Played:
AC, AC2, UO, AO, EQ, EQ2, Shadowbane, DAoC, Horisons, SWG, EVE, L2, GW, WoW, DDO, LotRO
Beta tested:
AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, Horisons, WoW, Archlord, LotRO, Espado Granada, Vanguard
Currently playing: AoC
Good point, and I agree.
But I was not talking about roleplaying as doing good old PnP roleplaying, I was talking about the definition of computer roleplaying games, and that has always been character progress in some way or another.
Get rid of character progress and the game looses the aspect of being a roleplaying game, by definition.
Roleplay as you describe it can be done in any game, regardless of genre.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You lost me, been trying to follow and read all posts in here.
Roleplay is just that Roleplay. Just like playing a part/role in a play.... You are one of many in the story that brings it to life and makes it unique.
Character progress is the MMO industries answer to how to keep players playing for extended periods of time and to forcably limit the how fast you can explore their world.... had noting to do with roleplay.
In a game that has no quests, has no spawn camping for uber gear or levels and skills, The players(actors) would make the story. The story of the land is writen as we the players make it not the way the devs wrote it before we even started playing.
One example would be, the town of Hammerfell(guild) has used all its resources, in order to survive (feed and clothe their people)they must find a new area to exploit. The closest area is in the valley just to the south where the town of Vallengar(guild) is located. These two towns have enjoyed relative peace till now but that is about to change in one fatefull night... (then the story unfolds) Imagine then that you are one of the survivors of the raid on your town , your town lost many brave souls that night, whatever town you move to next you will pass on the story and the warning of the Hammerfells actions that night and their deception.
And it goes on and on, a continously growing story that unfolds by our, the players, actions or inactions(thats leads to good roleplay), not the devs predesigned quests that guide you throught the whole game, or levels that seporate the community into only small groups(of like levels) that can compete equaly in PVP...
Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any).
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
Well, the whole point of PD is to make players value their lives. WoW for example is complete opposite. You die so whats the big deal. It only cost you your time thats it which allows players not to be afraid to explore the world.
Death Penalty In my believe is the compromising thing. Getting your corpse back is like another quest which always keep you on the edge of your sit.
Here is different variations of Death Penalty:
1. You lose some XP (like in old school MMOs);
2. You get some vitae (skill penalty which requires XP in order to clear);
3. You lose all your gained loot;
4. Its expensive to get resurrected;
5. You become a ghost and must complete quest or fight back with other ghosts in order to get to your corpse;
6. Your character become immortal zombie with PvP status against your alive party members lol
7. You must stop playing and take out trash
8. You go down in standings;
9. You cannot play that character for an hour;
10. If you died while on the quest you cannot comeback to that quest for 24 hours;
11. If you died in PvP you got all your staff looted;
12. If you died in PvP AND got all your staff looted you can place bounty on your opponent... hmm sorry that was off topic
13. You loosing your title whichever that is;
14. Your armor and weapons get broken and become useless until you get it fixed;
15. Your mount doesnt want to know you for a while and runs away as it doesnt like the way you smell... dead people do smell dont they
Plenty of solutions alright. Game companies just need to start employing people with imagination.
I like your ideas
Many also do not consider that there is TWO types of perma-death mmorpgs.
1. PvE permadeath.
2. PvP permadeath.
PvE perma-death in an online game has been proven to work, and proven to be doable. The insanely successfull Diablo 2 is the most obvious example. There IS a market for perma-death in an online game. And, it is big enough to be successful. The nitch mmorpg, and only mmorpg with permadeath, Strive for Power, is the next example that shows and proves permadeath in an online game works, and is doable.
Diablo 2 is roughly 75% level based/ 25% skill based. At maximum level (level 99) it can be said to be 50% skill based/50% level based, since the skill trees and skill branches chosen really do make a difference at the very highest levels. SfP is one of the few mmorpgs that is truely, truely, based on real table top Dungeons and Dragons. Skills are RANDOMLY ROLLED. SfP is roughly 50% Level Based/50% Skill Based. But players do not have as much of a choice what skills to pick - it is the "DICE" that decides.
PvP permadeath in an online game cannot work. It is near impossible. Play Runescape and go to the far northern wilderness area. It does not matter how uber a player is, or even if the player can slay other players in 1-2 hits. They will get killed by other players. One possible solution to make PvP permadeath a playable feature, is only 2 players can battle each other at the same time. And after the battle, no one can attack the winner until they are at full health, and signal they are ready. The winner cannot attack anyone either until signalling they are ready.
Soooo......... any discussion about perma-death in a mmorpg is moot, since it has already been successfully done! The real question is, should more mmorpgs have PvE perma-death servers?!? And if they do not have any, then you perma-death lovers should start posting on their forums, and list the above 2 examples showing permadeath works.
Maybe there's one you play more than others, but still... you're attached to all of them, right?
Isn't character death in that case about 1/10th the impact as if you only had one character?
What if the main character, the one other players really considered to be "you" or your "main", sat home on a throne and never risked perma-death: sending those other nine characters out to adventure and risk their lives for his advancement?
Jeff Freeman
I'm waiting for a game implementing Pd, and i will certainly try it. In fact i think the main reason mmo genre is stuck in an end road is because of the lack of PD, and all the environment going with it. Because the endless gathering of goods, level, experience or whatever is becoming insane, and on the long run give lot more frustration than it seam to ovoid at first glance. And this frustration come from both side, players that get sick of mmo genre in general, and dev that have at every generation unsolvable problems caused by this endless aspect of gaming.
Also i think that developers that would come to consider a pding game, would have to totally change the rules and laws of the mmo genre in general. Because having character that can die would ask totally other ways to evolve, fight, heal, to only talk about the obvious ones. All of this would have to be reinvented to give sense to such a game (well maybe not reinvented, after there is a bunch of game having unique way of fighting, progressing, healing...). The only concept of having to fight mob to progress with your character would have to be totally revisited imo.
Also i will compare the mmo market with the comic market, as it is clear mmo market didn't reach the maturity to give a product for the older players and rpers in general (take into consideration that those that rped 10 or 20 years ago are maybe not the hard core rpers of todays). I sure hope it will come fast. Anyway you can now find a plethora of good comics that aren't meant to be read by 10 years old kids, so it will also happen to mmos.
So for me if perma death is possible it is only in that context, and for that commercial target. And here come the problems, you need totally unseen yet logical systems to support the PD, yet you need to ovoid the hard core hyper realistic rules because well those wanting such games do work, and can't play 12hours a day and can't be possessed by their character. A big challenge.
well so far i like all that was said but to be done and actually play it is a totally different all together
Now, if you want something that better than perma-death then try XP penalties or armor deterioration.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
ok, in the article, i'd like to address a couple of items...
retrospectic is iffy about the idea of a level-less mmo...
ultima online, old school swg (pre stupidity), ryzom (it has skill levels, but not player class levels), and i'm sure others. any game where i can determine the path my character takes, and/or change it as we go along, is a definite plus.
umbrood talks about 'if you do away with levels and gear dependancy, you remove the rp from mmorpg.' ...
i have to disagree with this, to the point that i believe the opposite is true. levels and gear dependancy are seriously the downfall of the rp in mmorpgs. what great book/movie was based upon gear? is a jedi a hero because of the light saber? is a sithlord a villain because of a light saber? which genre bases the heroes and villains upon a never ending progression of better gear?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?