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General: Debate: Game Wide Markets

StraddenStradden Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696

Staff Writers Dan Fortier and Derek Czerkaski take opposite sides of the issue of game wide markets and auction houses. Do they help or hinder?

Dan Fortier:

One of the best and worst things about MMOs are the complex virtual economies they create. Poor planning, excessive hacking and infinite cash generation have caused serious inflation and top heavy markets for a number of popular games in years past. This weekend we are going to debate one specific issue in particular: Game wide markets/auction houses. The question will be whether listing all of the items in the game for sale and being able to buy them from any location is good or bad.

For some players, having every possible item available for bid or purchase from anywhere might seem like the most convenient way to runs things. The problem with this type of system is that only the most successful crafters/farmers will get their items sold since they can sell it for significantly less than Joe Nobody out in the borderlands, even if the items he creates are easier to gather/produce in the area he is in. Keeping markets specific to certain regions forces prospective entrepreneurs to develop a strong logistic system if they want to dominate a global market, which is the way it should be.

You can read the whole deabte here.

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

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Comments

  • RyowulfRyowulf Member UncommonPosts: 664
    They had something like this in SWG. You would have to run from player city to player city scanning what each had to sell then decide if you wanted to buy or hope someone else had it lower. Great times when you run somehwere to find they are out of stock.

    Great time when big cities had barkers than just spammed channels.



    Then they switched to a auction house and I prefered it.
  • GarranGarran Member Posts: 2

    The global market makes it easier for the small scale enterprise to market their goods making it easier to compete with the large enterprise. 

    Who is more likely to be able to put in that complicated logistics systems you mention?  It sure isn't the small enterprise.

    Products being marketed globally makes them all more accessible, increasing supply, which should in turn decrease prices as demand is satisfied more easily.

    Global market makes it harder to gouge the market because someone has the only 1 of that uber item in a region.

  • I have noticed the trend that when many small markets are offered, the players take it upon themselves to declare one market as the main one.

    If you look at Ultima Online, there was a bank in every town, each one allowing the player to do the same thing, however it wasn't to long before players got sick of running from bank to bank. Thus Brit bank became the standard area to buy and sell goods.

    Even in world of warcraft, there are two auction houses each side has access to, one in there main cities and one in booty bay. However I don't think there is a single server I have been on where the booty bay auction house is really used. Because the players had access to the auction house in there main cities first that became the standard one for global type sales.

  • tyhawktyhawk Member Posts: 22
    It's one of the (many) things I like about EvE Online: regional markets. Sometimes it's a challenge on its own to find an item in another region for a very nice price and ship it to another region to sell it with a profit. Trading is good a profession in EVE... in a lot of ways thanks to the regional markets.
  • gpettgpett Member Posts: 1,105

    Individual markets in a video game is just a waste of time for the players.  I see no advantage at all for individual markets.  In fact, individual markets punishes people that do not know the game economy.  Why would a game intentionaly put in a system that rips-off its new players?  Why, encourage "middle man" price speculation for people to inflate prices on goods that they think people are selling too cheaply.

    With a centralised auciton house, anyone can check the prices on anything.  New players can quickly browse for the prices of goods and sell thier goods accordingly.  Thus decreasing the "middleman" price speculators and those that drive up the price of the market.  Also, why make a player run all over the game world looking at seperate shops manually?  That is annoying and a waste of time that can be better spent in a fun area of the game.

    This is such a dumb article.  I doubt developers really ponder old questions like this.  There are better ways to solve the issues of inflation in a game.  How about a moneyless game system of pure barter?  Or how about making the economy player driven by not putting npc vendors in a game?

    Just, make things like buying and selling as painless as possible.

  • wjrasmussenwjrasmussen Member Posts: 1,493
    Originally posted by gpett


    Individual markets in a video game is just a waste of time for the players.  I see no advantage at all for individual markets.  In fact, individual markets punishes people that do not know the game economy.  Why would a game intentionaly put in a system that rips-off its new players?  Why, encourage "middle man" price speculation for people to inflate prices on goods that they think people are selling too cheaply.
    With a centralised auciton house, anyone can check the prices on anything.  New players can quickly browse for the prices of goods and sell thier goods accordingly.  Thus decreasing the "middleman" price speculators and those that drive up the price of the market.  Also, why make a player run all over the game world looking at seperate shops manually?  That is annoying and a waste of time that can be better spent in a fun area of the game.
    This is such a dumb article.  I doubt developers really ponder old questions like this.  There are better ways to solve the issues of inflation in a game.  How about a moneyless game system of pure barter?  Or how about making the economy player driven by not putting npc vendors in a game?
    Just, make things like buying and selling as painless as possible.



    I think you got it.  AHs are not about RPG, they are just game play element to keep players happy.  It's convience over inconvience. 

    Email systems in game are outside the confines of RPG in most game worlds.  It exists because players demand it.  It makes things a little easier on the players.

     

  • Vicar1492Vicar1492 Member Posts: 12
    I think it is funny you both brought up the fact that the economy in the game should be like a real economy.  The truth is both of your points are somewhat rooted in actual economic problems.  The real truth is if you want a good economy in a game, just look at the laws of economic.  Price goes up, supply goes up, demand goes down etc.. things like that and you will see that the best way to come up with this would probably be a single location market place but you would need some "government" i.e. dev regulation.  Not crazy regulation out the wa-zoo but only when it was needed, you could even include something about the dev's right to do so in the licensing agreement, no one would notice anyways.  Other than small interaction to break up market power(monopolies), other than that the fact there is limitless amounts of currency doesn't really help.  Besides that though the market should give the signals to suppliers and consumers and i am in no way saying that the devs should control a large portion of how the market should run.  So it really comes down to, you could certainly create a wonderfully balance and stable economy in a game, it really would not be that difficult, but if you were to do so I think you would see that it doesn't make for a very fun game.  I played SWG at launch and as someone else said they had a more regional type economy where you would have to actually go to the crafters to pick-up/purchase items, but the stock and price were listed in a global auction house so you didnt waste time running out there to find nothing, i like this system.  But i have also played other games with single location markets and they do alright too, they certainly are much more convenient.  The only way you are going to stop gold farmers/cheaters is gonna be to make a realistic economy that is based around the principles of economic, which would included limited currency, dev regulation, and more than likely regional delivery.  Only problem is, this would not be a very fun economic system to use in a game, a friend of mine always tells me realistic doesn't always make for a good game, and this is surely true.
  • MellowTiggerMellowTigger Member UncommonPosts: 84

    These discussions about in-game economies always amuse/annoy me because it seems they are always based on one fundamental flaw: production.  I don't mean the infinite creation of wealth, I mean production.  MMO games tend to add crafting as an afterthought.  It's always the ugly stepchild of the game, seldom given the attention it deserves.  So what is the economy of a game actually based on?  Theft.  Kill the orc, steal its loot.  Kill the kobold, steal its loot.  Kill the troll, steal its loot.  Moreover, it's the orc, kobold, and troll crafters who are superior.  How do I know?  Because the best loot in the game is achieved by stealing it from them, not by depending on your own home race's crafters.

     

    An entire gameworld whose economy is dependent upon theft.  And then we try to talk about a "balanced economy".  How daft is that?

  • DistasteDistaste Member UncommonPosts: 665
    Originally posted by gpett


    Individual markets in a video game is just a waste of time for the players.  I see no advantage at all for individual markets.  In fact, individual markets punishes people that do not know the game economy.  Why would a game intentionaly put in a system that rips-off its new players?  Why, encourage "middle man" price speculation for people to inflate prices on goods that they think people are selling too cheaply.
    With a centralised auciton house, anyone can check the prices on anything.  New players can quickly browse for the prices of goods and sell thier goods accordingly.  Thus decreasing the "middleman" price speculators and those that drive up the price of the market.  Also, why make a player run all over the game world looking at seperate shops manually?  That is annoying and a waste of time that can be better spent in a fun area of the game.
    This is such a dumb article.  I doubt developers really ponder old questions like this.  There are better ways to solve the issues of inflation in a game.  How about a moneyless game system of pure barter?  Or how about making the economy player driven by not putting npc vendors in a game?
    Just, make things like buying and selling as painless as possible.



    I have to totatly disagree. Trying to find the best prices acrossed the galaxy was the greatest thing in SWG and the global AH is one of the things I hate about the newer games. In SWG if you needed to get a little bit of something you could just go to the mini AH thing and snag it, but if you neeeded large amounts you would have to find a vendor. Sure you might get gouged now and again but that was half the fun. Finding that shop with cheap treasures was awesome and exciting when it would happen. The ability to create repeat buisness and gain a reputation for your products and shops. I still remember opening up my chef shop selling brandy and canapes, sooo much fun getting it going and giving out free samples in the cantinas to get my name out there. It wasn't hard and as long as you had a decent product you could get buisness. Then you would need to hire/find some sort of mass supplier so that gave the hunters/farmers a buisness and a name. So when I would get, Hey who supplies your berries? I could tell them my supplier and buisness spreads. It added depth to the game and was fun in its own right to a lot of people.

    The individual buisnesses created something that newer MMO players just don't get, Community. Sure you can have speed and ease of use but where is the community? You don't care WHO is selling as long as it is there and cheap. Some people have fun making a buisness and AH's take that away. I don't even care if it is just a  centralized market where people set up "stands" to sell things that is better than 1 stop shopping andf at least people will get to know your name. In things like WoW where the only way you can make a name for yourself is to have those rare patterns that takes 1000g to make. There is no crafter community in that game and it honestly made the game less fun for my friends and I.

    You can have your ease of use but I will take community over ease of use 1000 times over.

  • CymdaiCymdai Member UncommonPosts: 1,043
    Originally posted by MellowTigger


    These discussions about in-game economies always amuse/annoy me because it seems they are always based on one fundamental flaw: production.  I don't mean the infinite creation of wealth, I mean production.  MMO games tend to add crafting as an afterthought.  It's always the ugly stepchild of the game, seldom given the attention it deserves.  So what is the economy of a game actually based on?  Theft.  Kill the orc, steal its loot.  Kill the kobold, steal its loot.  Kill the troll, steal its loot.  Moreover, it's the orc, kobold, and troll crafters who are superior.  How do I know?  Because the best loot in the game is achieved by stealing it from them, not by depending on your own home race's crafters.
     
    An entire gameworld whose economy is dependent upon theft.  And then we try to talk about a "balanced economy".  How daft is that?
    That's actually not a bad point, however, what alternative is there? I can think of one at the drop of a hat



    Everyone has to craft. No more loot players could actually use, merely synthing ingredients that can be used to create something better.



    For example, instead of killing that kobold and him dropping some chain armor, he might drop a few chain links instead. Get enough of these, build your chain armor, and go with it.



    It would be interesting, but then again, what economy would there really be? On paper, it sounds really fantastic, but if you had to craft to make money, who would buy or sell? Everyone would just make their own goods. I think it would also lead to an extremely boring game. Grinding isn't exactly fun as it is, can you imagine if there was literally NO rewards along the way?

    Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  • necrotherionnecrotherion Member Posts: 130
    I would prefer a regional economy; it heightens my feelings of immersion. There would be a lot less crap to sort through, a lot more items/resources up for grabs that I can actually use, and I'd get over that annoying problem I have of blowing all my gold on something ten levels higher than me. Large cities should be hubs where all the rare items and extremely shiny baubles are sold. There should be areas that are centralized for a specific purpose, such as a town near a port (I'm thinking VG here) selling materials needed for crafting boats, other "crafter's havens," etc. I guess what I'm trying to say is something in between the two, done right, could be a welcome change.
  • hoss27055hoss27055 Member Posts: 1
    I have to disagree with the comment about the small store inferoior goods and the big stores elite goods. Two good examples to disprove that claim is Wal-mart and Lowes Hardware. Both of them are so big because they by inferior goods at lower prices. Just take Enigizer battires. They have a seperat production line for Walmart, Lowes, and several other big chain stores and on this production line they do not charge up the battary as long as they do in normal production. That is why they are cheaper at Walmart but do not last as long.
  • popwmpopwm Member Posts: 4
    Continuing from the previous post: drops have to be realistic.  That boar you just killed should not drop a sword.  If weapons or armor are dropped, it should be by humanoids only - and should reflect the level of the NPC.  This would create a larger marked for crafters' wares, thereby making the game more realistic, and opening the way for specialised creafters, who do little else.



    The lower income from drops could easily be compensated by through higher quest rewards in terms of money from quest givers.  Humanoids could also still drop items of high value.



    On the question of markets, while I ike the realism of separate markets, I also enjoy the transparency of at least regional, if not global markets.  Local markets is too much of a hassel, unless you devote your time to trading.  However, even with a global market, there is the possiblity of taking geography into account.  Why not place a transportation fee between auction houses.  EVE has done this to great effect, in that you either have to travel to the station where the goods are located to pick them up (paying in time) or pay another player to bring them to you.
  • ZitchZitch Member Posts: 129

    Auction houses eh?

    The issue for me is much more than that. The issue is the "dumbing down" of MMOg's over the years, into an "easy mode" style of game play, and it's not just the method of how you buy and sell, It's everywhere you look! MMO's today are trivial games.

    My definition of trivial "the more a game does for you, the more trivial it becomes"
    You have to remove some tedium, but todays games have automated just about everything.
    Just like everything else it's a balance.

    Forgive me though, I'm oldschool. I played UO when it was real game world.
    MMOg's today have been deluged with one utility after another, dumbing down and trivialising the most ordinary activitys. The impact of all of this is lost on most players and developers. They don't get it, and I'm feeling I may be the only one that does...

    I could produce a list of how many automated utilitys commonly exist in games, but it's of little use. Most players today know no different, and again... just would'nt get it.

    Anyways back to Auction houses and the market.

    The first thing that comes to mind with this utility is the damage it does to community. It removes most if not all player interaction. Sure it's convenient as hell, but buyer and seller never meet, never discuss the product, and it's all very antiseptic.

    Next be the auction house regional or server wide, they disrupt or overpower local economies. So you will rarely ever see a price difference in a region or on the server duee to natural and local supply and demand.

    Also as was mentioned in the artical, it makes it easy for farmers and RM.

    From a roleplaying perspective, for you roleplayers out there... how many real medieval markets had an auction house where you could buy from the other side of the world and have your purchace sent to you? So were I a roleplayer I would find this a bit unimmersive. Not to mention the fact that this style of transaction completely removes any roleplay activity.

    Nah auction houses, wired transactions, are best left to Sci Fi games like Eve, where this idea of communication and transaction fits, and works well... Even in Eve you must travel to make the pickup, but in WoW the mailman delivers :)
    Eve or a game where this mechanic is not out of place, is my only compromise on this utility.

    Below is the URL to a thread in which I tell a tale of street vending in UO, as it was back in the day. It may help you to understand my community argument.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/114764


    No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
    What I listen to :)

  • BrynnBrynn Member Posts: 345
    Originally posted by MellowTigger


    These discussions about in-game economies always amuse/annoy me because it seems they are always based on one fundamental flaw: production.  I don't mean the infinite creation of wealth, I mean production.  MMO games tend to add crafting as an afterthought.  It's always the ugly stepchild of the game, seldom given the attention it deserves.  So what is the economy of a game actually based on?  Theft.  Kill the orc, steal its loot.  Kill the kobold, steal its loot.  Kill the troll, steal its loot.  Moreover, it's the orc, kobold, and troll crafters who are superior.  How do I know?  Because the best loot in the game is achieved by stealing it from them, not by depending on your own home race's crafters.
     
    An entire gameworld whose economy is dependent upon theft.  And then we try to talk about a "balanced economy".  How daft is that?

    Actually, when I think more about it, how much is our real world economy based upon theft? I don't mean the game type theft, I mean the way the masses are exploited. There would be no wealth without mass labor, for which the masses are paid a pittance. Everyone in America has the opportunity, with hard work and sacrifice, to move through the strata? Don't make me laugh.

  • MellowTiggerMellowTigger Member UncommonPosts: 84
    Originally posted by Brynn


    Actually, when I think more about it, how much is our real world economy based upon theft? I don't mean the game type theft, I mean the way the masses are exploited.



    Now that's the right way to think!  ;)  Recommended reading for the day:

    http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Economies-Jane-Jacobs/dp/0375702431

     

    I have a copy on my bookshelf, and it's a very easy and educational read.  My take on it is that she tells a story of how the velocity of money in an economy is related (metaphorically) to the flow of water (and other exploited natural resources) in a biological ecosystem.  A desert, for example, is a living ecosystem but it is very susceptible to changes in natural resources... like perhaps a gold mining community would be economically susceptible to gold extraction rates.  The water (/gold) arrives in a deluge, and quickly disappears.  More complex environments like a tropical rainforest have resources travelling between many different layers.  Resources there are retained for much longer during various transformations before they finally lose their utility.  No resource can be exploited without some kind of cost.  No economy exists without exploiting some resource.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,070
    Originally posted by Brynn


    Actually, when I think more about it, how much is our real world economy based upon theft? I don't mean the game type theft, I mean the way the masses are exploited. There would be no wealth without mass labor, for which the masses are paid a pittance. Everyone in America has the opportunity, with hard work and sacrifice, to move through the strata? Don't make me laugh.


    Actually,  most of the exploitation of the masses takes  place in countries other than the United States (even if it is US based companies doing the exploiting)



    And yes, in America just about everyone can better themselves with hard work and sacrifice.  I worked with a young woman from India, and her father came to the US with no skills other than farming.  He raised his family here as  a Janitor, still speaks no English...and has 4 children with Graduate degrees, one is a doctor and one is a lawyer.



    He did it through hard work and sacrifice....  others can as well....



    LOL thought I'd better edit and stay on topic.....



    As to game wide markets, I prefer them over regional ones. I don't enjoy running all over looking for the best deal..but I can certainly see how others would prefer it the other way.  Not a game breaker for me either way it goes.....

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • JYCowboyJYCowboy Member UncommonPosts: 652

    Hmmm,

    Maybe the Real World rules of Econemy don't apply to the standard MMO model.  Real World, people will always be online, MMO World people might not "wake up" for months.

    As someone posted above, Crafting is treated as the bastard stepchild by the developers on whole.  Why should that not carry over to the Econemy as well?  Its not Combat (which is universily accepted as the only entertainment of value) so why bother with further understanding it or developing it fully?  I applaud Vanguard for creating the Political System as an alternative to combat.  I would push for this avenue to have stronger Economic ties to results than "kill and steal" based action.

    IMHO

  • hogscraperhogscraper Member Posts: 322
    Capitalism works in the real world because governments enforce rules concerning what can and cannot take place. In most MMO's there are no such rules. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for a perfect example. The whole line of thinking that an open market somehow will bring lower prices is ignorant. The markets in these kinds of games only favor the seller, and never the buyer. In these systems the rich get richer while those who do not have the ability to farm the same encounter for 16 hours straight will never get ahead.



    There's an item in dark age called Azure Silencer Fang. The stats are decent but people really like them because of the way they look. When SI came out I got really lucky and got 3 on raids and bought 2 others relatively cheap. Wanting to see what they were worth I saw in housing that the cheapest one was 150 plat, (that's 75% of the maximum amount of money any one toon can even have). I put two of mine in my cm wanting some cash but not wanting to gouge people. I put them up for 25 plat a piece. They sold the next day, but then I noticed the guy that had 1 for 150 plat, now had 3 for that price. I've seen the same thing happen to a lot of items I've sold. I try to bring items to the market at a lower price, but they are bought almost immediately and the prices are jacked up. Realm wide markets are extremely easy to create a monopoly in. If someone has enough money, they can buy out all the cheap items and jack the prices up to a point that any average player will never see them. And this is not an item that even dedicated players will ever see. It takes a very strong bg of people to even get to the mobs that drop them, and almost every raid I've been in over the last 2 years where it might drop, the bg leader simply takes the item and says screw you to the 60-100 people that made it possible. An idea that seems to be catching on are the raids where everyone in the battlegroup gets the item.
  • BrynnBrynn Member Posts: 345
    I think you gave the best reply I've seen yet, hogscraper.  Until the developers get a grip on the reality of their economies, and figure out some alternatives, we will have more of the same unfairness. I hate raids, as do many others, so that isn't an answer for all. All it does is fuel the greed. From what I understand about gold farming, it isn't the farmers who are getting the profits. They make money, yes, but it's the online site sellers who are reaping. That's why Sony decided to join them, and from what I hear, Sony has found another money maker.
  • JenneroflokJenneroflok Member Posts: 126
    I have been playing since the lost lands of UO.  I have found when there is only a regional market (IE vendors) the players tend to make global markets (Live Auctions or Web Base Auctions)  As a MMORPG Cr after since 97, I prefer a vendor system only when the items crafted by a player has diversity (One of the things I loved about SWG) for without that, there is no reason to go to vendor B, because vendor A has the exact same thing.
  • BrynnBrynn Member Posts: 345
    SWF was also gold farmer friendly. I did enjoy the game the way it was first released. It was very community friendly.
  • MrbloodworthMrbloodworth Member Posts: 5,615
    The markets should be local to the city they are in. Listing items across the entire game is one of the stupidest conventions of MMO's. It always leads to Flooding, price gouging,early item depreciation, and saturation or the perception there of.



    Local markets for each city/town, created and managed by the players of that town (Threw use of NPC mode ETC) is the way to go..not only for all MMO's but most.



    I will be very disappointed if they continue to list items across the entire game.



    No broker, auction, bazaar or what ever you want to call it.



    As far as ingame mechanics..I do hope that you can set your NPC up to be able to list items FOR acution on THAT NPC As an option to a flat price when selling.



    Acution houses (or what ever you wish to call it) are a bane to MMO's.



    Thew history of them each and every MMO that uses one has to take drastic mesures to combat the things i listed above (such as no trade, soulbinding, ETC...).



    Considering every one has the ability to to become a crafter in most games, If a game uses an auction house (or what ever) that lists all items across the game (Becouse thats what they do) all games WILL have the same problem.



    [h1]IT NEVER WORKS.[/h1]



    Thoes guys in the mountains may have the iron..but they dont have the weat.



    If a crafter in a small village wants to craft his swords for 10 goths and seel them in his town for 15 goths...More power to him. If there is a crafter in a town 30 miles away that sells them for 20 goths, more power to him. If that same crafter wants to but the first crafters swards for 15 move them to his town and resell them for 25 goths MORE POWER TO HIM!



    This is the way of the world...and it should be no diffrent in

    MMOs.



    The only way it would be a good thing is IF the acution house IS a house IN one of the starting citys..and you have to be IN that house to bid, and it is NOT listed across the entire game.



    A true acution house IN a loacation and not listed in any place other than that house. Peroid.



    Anything other than that we will get the same problems that every other MMO has faced.



    i dont mean EACH city should have one... I would attach it to a size and make this allowed building City size restricted.



    Only large citys should have somthing like this.



    And im only speaking about acutions...not flat priced items.



    I would still prefer if when we start getting options to go into NPC mode and have the option of listing an item open for biding while still listing other items for flat prices. So in the smaller citys its up to the merchant...in larger ones you have the option of this house.



    This all of course works better for games that are not item/loot based, and player created based. (Mobs drop parts/components)

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  • saurinsaurin Member Posts: 19

    I love economy debates they always get so indepth.. Anyways I have to weigh in on the subject .  I think regional economies are important. For one it gives the new player a fighting chance to join the crafting profession. Which I think is simportant if you want a larger community. I think the pre NGE SWG was proof of that. By having regional suppliers you limited the crafter to selling on only a few planets. It also made people talk with one another "hey man you know a good vendor who sells such and such" To me regional economies are best it adds to the RPG and encourages community. For those people saying convieniece is most important all I have to say is if your willing to raid for hours on end to get an uber item.  Why is it so different shopping around for your other needs a little while. If convienince is such an issue, I think it should be a cross of SWG and their listing all items but make it so you still have to fly out to buy the item.

      Lastly I think the real problem with game economies is the lack of money sinks.  As long as you can make way more than you spend you will have inflation and skewed economies.

    Freemen

  • BrynnBrynn Member Posts: 345

    I think there are enough money sinks. Devs look for more all the time. But,  some people make more money than others do; not everyone enjoys crafting, believe it or not. So, adventurers have to rely on quests and drops. With the new "you pick it up, you own it", there isn't much chance to make money from that.  So, please, no more money sinks.

    I can't help wondering how gold farmers make their money now. 

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