How Breezer feels

redelf07 · February 2007

This is a post taken from a VG fansite, Silky Venom. It was originally posted by a person named Breezer. I thought everyone should have a read.

""...Sigil has rallied a community of elitist snobs..." is a quote that unfortunately I can't find the source for. It was a random comment on a review for Vanguard, and it was probably the most intelligent and level-headed criticism I've read from a player. Obviously, this is a sweeping generalization. Its context had to do with the notoriously passive aggressive responses to the "Well, I tried, but I'm cancelling" posts (which usually say something like "Bye then").

Anyway, the reason why I'm bringing this up is actually not to accuse the entire VG community of being snobs, instead I'd like to accuse the "hardcore" set.

I've been playing VG pretty "hardcore" since launch. I put in a lot of hours/day and consequently most of my grouping experience have been with the most "hardcore" players/guilds on Shidreth.

First of all, since this site is at least superficially associated with them, let me just say, the folks of the Silky Venom guild, among the most knowledgable and experienced Vanguard players have been by far the most helpful, most mature and nicest of the people I'm generalizing here. I have yet to meet a Silky Venom member who I'd catagorize like the rest.

Now for the rest...

Like I said before, my level has been on the higher end since launch, and so I find myself grouping the more "hardcore" players on Shidreth.

I want to describe my experiences without using specific examples in an attempt (perhaps futile) to sounds less cry-baby.

The seeming majority of active higher level players seem to fall under the elitist asshole category. I avoid grouping altogether now because when I do group, the atmosphere is never fun. It's always negative, militant, overly-competative and just overall too intense. As soon as anything goes wrong, it's a race to see who can correctly accuse the fastest.

I haven't played MMOs for the longest time possible, but it has been about 5 years, and one thing I've learned over the years is that shit happens. Even to the best players. Dying (just as an example) is part of the MMORPG experience, and sometimes dying is a good measure of how much you're challenging yourself. If you never died in an MMO, you aren't trying hard enough. Part of not being a noob in my experience (coming from FFXI, not WoW, not that it should matter, but I'm sure it does to many of you) is finally accepting that death happens, and it's really not a big deal (note that in FFXI, death is actually a much bigger deal than VG (corpse runs are for carebears)) Having a temper tantrum every time you die is not the mark of a hardcore mmo-er.

Why is it, to the most experienced "hardcore" players act like every death is some sort of conspiracy of noobs to sabotage their race to 50?

The demand for utter perfection at all times, the negativity, the judgemental-ness, the accusatory attitude and the subsequent defensiveness and of course the hallowed Elitism. The "7 years of EQ raids, get your corpse by yourself" attitude.

One thing I miss from FFXI are the JPs. The Japanese. Aside from being surprisingly racist (well not that surprising when you think abou it), the japanese are simply incredible gamers. It's kind of unreal. It's like they have a "Gaming+50" racial trait.

I learned something interesting from a newbie japanese blackmage early on in FFXI. He couldn't quite get his magic bursts and our party of Americans said something like, "wtf u cant hit teh MBs n00b, you suck!" He was taken aback, but simply asked, "then please tell me how to magic burst" He explained a Japanese party would teach him how to do it, rather than insult him for not being able to, which not only shows the newbie blm a lot more respect, it makes atmosphere, the community and of course the party itself better.

I dont care how long you played EQ. I dont care which MUDS youve played or MMOs you've beta tested. Everyone is owed dignity and respect. If you're in a position of experience, you have something to teach, so teach it. Don't hang it over the heads of your group mates. I think that's the thing that makes the Japanese such truly uber gamers, the fact that they help the noobs to not be noobs, improving their player community insteading of actively dividing it.

Vanguard is a game, but to some it seems to be much more and they treat it as such. Fine, but I'm here to play, not work for you. You want to crawl a tough dungeon? Fine, then let's all try our best, accomplish something and have fun in the process, but if you start treating everyone like subordinates getting in your way to 50, you're not leading or helping, you're deconstructing. Dungeons have enough obstacles without having to overcome your ego, so do us all a favor and make it easier.

People are being driven away from VG for a variety of reasons, so let's not let one of those reasons be the community. I guess I'm just drawing attention to what is to me one of the biggest issues the game and calling for the community to examine how they are treating people, ESPECIALLY the people like WoW players, people who will make up the "core" of the community and really give the game life, something it desperately needs at the moment. Being an elitist snob makes you nothing but an immature jerk, so why not try to help your community and your game by being just plain nice?

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, and thanks to those who read it. I think it's an apt discussion point that I have very rarely seen discussed here.

Um.. that's all finally."

BTW. I completely agree with this entire post, as it explains exactly what VG needs at the moment. Helpful, understanding, useful community members.

DijonCyanide · February 2007

I wonder if this is the same Breezer that once used to play EQ??? If so, I still give thanks to that character for making my beginning days in EQ fun near Kelethin & beyond.

Rollotamasi · February 2007

To me, community makes or breaks a MMO. The problem with Vanguard is that it is meant to be a more hardcore game. Hardcore games attract people that are more hardcore players and hardcore players tend to be a lot less patient. In hardcore games XP is harder to come by and death penalities are harsher. Because of this is a "newbie" wipes your group a few times people are a lot less inclined to say "Thats ok, let me show you what you are doing wrong" and more inclined to say "This noob has already cost us X percent of a lvl, lets ditch him and get someone that knows what they are doing". Its sad but true.

redelf07 · February 2007

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

To me, community makes or breaks a MMO. The problem with Vanguard is that it is meant to be a more hardcore game. Hardcore games attract people that are more hardcore players and hardcore players tend to be a lot less patient. In hardcore games XP is harder to come by and death penalities are harsher. Because of this is a "newbie" wipes your group a few times people are a lot less inclined to say "Thats ok, let me show you what you are doing wrong" and more inclined to say "This noob has already cost us X percent of a lvl, lets ditch him and get someone that knows what they are doing". Its sad but true.

I'd have to say thats true for any mmo. Not the just "hardcore" ones, which is definatly not what VG is. When I played WoW and thought I had experience in it, people would say the same thing. This kids "teh noob" lets kick him and invite someone that knows how to "pwnzor." And yes, I agree, a community does have a big part in an MMO as does the dev team, and in VG I'm getting to love both. I'm so used to WoW where the only time we would hear from the team is when they would post about a new patch coming. I can't remember ever hearing about how the CEO of Blizzard posted on nomal forums and talked to normal people about how they felt the game was going. The community-dev communication is great in VG, and thats the reason I'm staying.

BTW- If you're looking for that kind of community, its certainly not on these boards. They're just full of complaints and how much SOE sucks. Look for one for one of the many established fansites for VG:SoH.

//\//\oo · February 2007

That's a lovely racist post.

Rollotamasi · February 2007

Originally posted by redelf07

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

To me, community makes or breaks a MMO. The problem with Vanguard is that it is meant to be a more hardcore game. Hardcore games attract people that are more hardcore players and hardcore players tend to be a lot less patient. In hardcore games XP is harder to come by and death penalities are harsher. Because of this is a "newbie" wipes your group a few times people are a lot less inclined to say "Thats ok, let me show you what you are doing wrong" and more inclined to say "This noob has already cost us X percent of a lvl, lets ditch him and get someone that knows what they are doing". Its sad but true.

I'd have to say thats true for any mmo. Not the just "hardcore" ones, which is definatly not what VG is. When I played WoW and thought I had experience in it, people would say the same thing. This kids "teh noob" lets kick him and invite someone that knows how to "pwnzor." And yes, I agree, a community does have a big part in an MMO as does the dev team, and in VG I'm getting to love both. I'm so used to WoW where the only time we would hear from the team is when they would post about a new patch coming. I can't remember ever hearing about how the CEO of Blizzard posted on nomal forums and talked to normal people about how they felt the game was going. The community-dev communication is great in VG, and thats the reason I'm staying.

BTW- If you're looking for that kind of community, its certainly not on these boards. They're just full of complaints and how much SOE sucks. Look for one for one of the many established fansites for VG:SoH. I have to respectfully disagree with you. If you look at the current 'Top" MMO' I think vanguard is by far the most hardcore in terms of lvling and things like death penality. Now if you compare it to the older games like EQ1, and FFXI then no, its not hardcore. But by todays standards its one of the more hardcore games. I'm not saying thats bad, just saying it probably wont appeal to people who like the ease of play of wow.

jimmyman99 · February 2007

While I agree with the OP, there is also a balance in strict discipline and leniency. There are those groups where everything has to go according to plan, those groups tend to accomplish greatest things but also tend to be least fun. And there are those that dont realy care who does what, often resulting in group members running around doing nothing, pulling trains or just wondering off draining experience and not contributing to the group at all.

The perfect group, imo, is the one with discipline, but not the kind of discipline where "Can I ger 5 mins bio-afk plz? HEY, whyd ya kick me from the group??? I said i was going AFK". But rather "Ok, you are the main puller, try and not pull more then 4 mobs at a time. You are main healer, dont waste energy on nukes. You are group clown, you are free to do emotes and joke about gnomes and rangers."

PS: Good post OP!

Rollotamasi · February 2007

Originally posted by //\//\oo

That's a lovely racist post.

Not sure what part of whos post your replaying to so I am just going to take a guess.

1. I have to agree the JP in the game were extremely racist. It was not uncommon at all the find notes in their LFG flags saying things like <English> <Party> <Enemy> Or at the very least <English> <Party> <No Thanks>

2. I don't think that they are better gamers, I think the majority of them just tend to be VERY dedicated. A lot of JP players I knew didn't think anything of grinding low lvl mobs for cash for 2 weeks so they could buy a TON of stat boosting food and items for a single 1 night 3 hour play session.

3. Telling him that saying "JP gamers are incredible gamers" is racist is like telling someone that says "Black people make great athlete's" Is racist. Yeah,, Cause we all know black people don't make good athlete's. Is it politically correct? Nope, Is it true? Yep.

DijonCyanide · February 2007

Of course a site that caters to a certain game is obviously going to be a bit biased for that game. I just think despite Vanguard's rushed launch there will need to be time to have it organicaly grow, the game itself & the community. I admit because of my EQ experience I'm mostly hesitant of SOE, but I'm this way as well for Sigil now too. They knew Vanguard ... EQ3 ... wasn't ready but they valued sales of Vanguard paramount to trusting the players/customers & being honest with the community. Vanguard will survive however, it's been tarnished, but with time Vanguard will probably redeem itself. I hope it does so I'll have to heavily reconsider purchasing & playing Vanguard again. Till then, if then, good luck in Telon for those abe to play & enjoy it. If not, there's many other MMOs as well.

Isobel · February 2007

Just to make things clear, the "review" the Breezer is talking about was written buy someone who never played the game, He couldn't figure out how to load it correctly but he wrote a "review" anyway. It was taken down within a day of being posted because of the outcry.

I believe the reason the author of the "review" feels that we, the VG community are elitist is because he came to SV, told us the game was unplayable by anyone because he couldn't play it, informed us that anyone who didn't agree that the game was shafted was a Vanboy who was kidding themselves, refused to post his system specs so we could help him figure out what was actually wrong and got angry when we didn't just accpet that the game we were happily playing was unplayable every time. It turns out it was his raid arry. Read both threads on SV, see for yourselves.

www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php

Almanegras · February 2007

Im not japananese and ive been labeled king of games from NES to Playstation to PC.

I was number 1 in the starcraft Tournys IAm unstoppable.

random11 · February 2007

First on the Japanese.

Who cares if anyone is racist as long as no harm comes from it. He didn't call you stinking white boy, or black boy, so no harm in that. They want to play with their own kind! That is an advantage for everyone, as we have different styles and likes, and tempers. I am very okay about them being as they are.

The OP is dead on btw, nothing to add to it.

I consider myself elitist, yet not how this socially incapable so called hardcore players are. Fact is, the more you spend in front of a computer the less social you become, you might deny it, but psychological studies show the more you spend gaming the less patience you have. Being an elitist, it is my own person that I have highest expectations of, since I make mistakes, so can others. Since I expect to be treated with respect and kindness, I treat others with respect and kindness. I played DDO a lot, and I know the DnD system inside out, as well as most mobs and dungeons, I also lead groups exclusively. I play with a lot of pick up people, but never, never have we failed a dungeon, and for some reason these people want to come back and play more with me. It's simple, I don't get mad at them, ever, I laugh at death and XP penalty, as I want to enjoy the dungeon, the experience, not get XP. The only thing I ever grind for is money, I don't deny that, I would chose cash over XP any day. Being a good leader with experienced people is easy, everyone knows the drill. Leading people with patience and social skills above all obstacles is what I like most of all, I don't care if they are new or not, so long as if they ask, and I explain they listen.

It's not elitism that is wrong, it's the lack of social skills, and most of the VG hardcore players lack that.

matraque · February 2007

My community is my guild. The rest is subjective... There's assholes in every games.

random11 · February 2007

Actually, it's all subjective, what makes you think I don't think your guild is made up of assholes? -- just theoretically speaking ofcourse.

matraque · February 2007

Originally posted by random11

Actually, it's all subjective, what makes you think I don't think your guild is made up of assholes? -- just theoretically speaking ofcourse.

Nothing.

But i'm playing with them... i know them since SWG (we had a guild in there also). They aren't assholes to me... but they certainly could be to you.

Send me a PM. I'll invite you to play with us. We are on Varking. Team PVP

Tnice · February 2007

Go back to WoW!

redelf07 · February 2007

Heh, I'm on varking also. names Chayne. Half elf Ranger getting lvl 11 tongiht

random11 · February 2007

Originally posted by matraque

Originally posted by random11

Actually, it's all subjective, what makes you think I don't think your guild is made up of assholes? -- just theoretically speaking ofcourse.

Nothing.

But i'm playing with them... i know them since SWG (we had a guild in there also). They aren't assholes to me... but they certainly could be to you.

Send me a PM. I'll invite you to play with us. We are on Varking. Team PVP In all my honesty, I would try playing with you someday, but that day will be like 6 month from now or more, when I'll risk spending 50$ to see how it all advanced.

OBK1 · February 2007

A lot of people seem to think that the Vanguard community is too aggressive towards haters. I think the community has turned this way due to a lot of haters flooding the boards and spreading their hates about a game a lot of people love, you will then get a defensive reaction. Has always been like this and will always be.

That said, in Vanguard - in the actual game, I think the community is fantastic. I have yet to meet anyone being sarcastic or throwing dirt at others! Most people I meet are helpul and friendly.

Of course this could differ from server to server, I play on the EU-server Gelenia.

Fariic · February 2007

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

Originally posted by //\//\oo

That's a lovely racist post.

Not sure what part of whos post your replaying to so I am just going to take a guess.

1. I have to agree the JP in the game were extremely racist. It was not uncommon at all the find notes in their LFG flags saying things like <English> <Party> <Enemy> Or at the very least <English> <Party> <No Thanks>

2. I don't think that they are better gamers, I think the majority of them just tend to be VERY dedicated. A lot of JP players I knew didn't think anything of grinding low lvl mobs for cash for 2 weeks so they could buy a TON of stat boosting food and items for a single 1 night 3 hour play session.

3. Telling him that saying "JP gamers are incredible gamers" is racist is like telling someone that says "Black people make great athlete's" Is racist. Yeah,, Cause we all know black people don't make good athlete's. Is it politically correct? Nope, Is it true? Yep.

I think it's #1; wich is silly cause if I was Japanese I'd most likey hate any English speaking people as well. Just like if I was Jewish I would likey have grown up hating Christian Germans. It's an aspect of Human nature to hate, or to have been raised to hate, those you lose to in war, and understandably acceptable.

And your borderline with the athlete comment. Anytime you cross over into stereotypes you are demeonstrating a racist nature. Stereotypes are grown out of racism, and the black athlete is pretty close, if not already, a stereotype I hear far to often.

And yes, a community can make or break a game for me.

Geriden · February 2007

Well all i can do is /clap for this post .

Really does sum up vg at the moment

il give an example;

I had just done a quest chain which at the end of it i was to lay some stuff on a alter

this being my first day of play i didnt know why it wouldnt work so i asked in general chat .

instead of being told i needed t relog someone in general decided to say that question gets asked 20 times a day !

I said well this is my first day , is it buged or am i doing something wrong ?

Check the forums and dont be so lazy .. im not going to answer these simple questions for people!

Then i got a pm of someone telling me i just needed to relogg from a helpfull person which sadly i very rarely came across in two weeks of vg .

So i relogged and when i came back there a group of people at the alter asking the same question

getting the same responce from a group of l33tist assholes who couldnt be helpfull and just say you need to relog the quest item is bugged

This kind of shit kills the community.

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