Originally posted by Nasas You obviously don't know what we are talking about... Macros in games that have that feature are alright.... What we are talking about macros or bots that do things for you, these are used from outside the game... Usually macros and bots are 3rd person programs fighitng for you. It means you can go to sleep while you character levels up in game. I think they are wrong
Obviously you don't read before you post.
I wanted a Definition of 'macro' and 'bot' because every person has their own idea of what exactly a macro and bot are. So for instace you aren't talking about macros OR bots, you're talking about using 3rd Party Programs which is something different.
That's why this thread is pointless everyone is talking about not liking 'macros' and 'bots' and what they're really talking about is 3rd Party Programs
If dev's didn't make their games massive boring level grinds, less people would want to use a 3rd party program to run their toon while they were offline.
Originally posted by Lotarious and I'd like to add...
If dev's didn't make their games massive boring level grinds, less people would want to use a 3rd party program to run their toon while they were offline. --------------------------------- Killer 80%|Achiever 53%|Socializer 46%|Explorer 20%
Wait a sec, theres no way you can seriously put the blame on the Dev's, who made the game. If their games massive boring level grinds are causing you to use Bots and Macro's, as an act to get back at them for making a game in which you aren't having fun, that's your own fault for buying and playing the game. If it's that boring to you, that you need to use a bot or macro while your offline, then wouldn't it be boring for you, to put everyone else at a unfair advantage by having such a powerful character in which you didn't physically earn.
So what? having a powerful character, so powerful that theres not much else to look forward to in the game, without earning it? I'd call that boring. If that's how you see it, MMORPG's aren't your style, the whole idea behind MMORPG's are developing your character, but better yet, being there as your character grows, the experience you go through to build him up, yourself, not your macro, not your bot. The time, and committment you put into your character, makes it worth more, and gives you the satisfaction of knowing, it came with alot of dedication, rather then alot of macro-ing and bot-ing.
Again if it's 3rd Party, then it's a cheat. If it's made by the Dev's, then thats a totally different story, but in no way, should you put the blame on the Dev's, saying their system is flawed, etc. It's like Fat people trying to sue Mcdonalds for getting them Fat, Just because theres exploits, just because the food is full of calories, doesn't mean it's their fault if you eat it, or if you use them to your advantage over everyone else. Nobodies forcing you to eat it, Nobodies forcing you to play it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by UnKn0wN So what? having a powerful character, so powerful that theres not much else to look forward to in the game, without earning it? I'd call that boring. If that's how you see it, MMORPG's aren't your style, the whole idea behind MMORPG's are developing your character, but better yet, being there as your character grows, the experience you go through to build him up, yourself, not your macro, not your bot. The time, and committment you put into your character, makes it worth more, and gives you the satisfaction of knowing, it came with alot of dedication, rather then alot of macro-ing and bot-ing.
Well actually I play mmorpgs to have fun adventures with friends, so grinding out hour after hour after hour after hour at the same mob camp to grind out a level and watch my character grow is not what makes mmorgps fun for me.
In Ultima I used to afk macro to develop my toons while I was at work, then I'd come home and play all night long running around actually adventuring, instead of just clicking the same button over and over again so I could go up .1 skill
Mind you, I'm not saying afk macroing is a good thing but I definately think some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the devs when they make a game that encourages macroing by being too focused on repetative tasks rather then having fun.
--------------------------------- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American people."-Teddy Roosevelt
Originally posted by wystan hmm depends on the game most mmos now have macro so i believe they are perfectly fine bots specialy in L2 affect everyone and the game economy
Yes simple macros are fine. If they allow you to walk away for hours then that's not really good for the game. And to further clarify, a buff bot is just second account that someone has. So there is actually a person controlling it, providing heals or buffs.
Mind you, I'm not saying afk macroing is a good thing but I definately think some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the devs when they make a game that encourages macroing by being too focused on repetative tasks rather then having fun.
I can see your point, But if it's that repetitive and dull that you can sense you'll be macro-ing or bot-ing it soon, then i honestly don't see a reason to play it, even pay for it. If you think that it's the dev's fault for making it a bit too repetitive, then how boring can it be to go through the game without getting the experience from it yourself. Getting somewhere without doing the work yourself seems somewhat boring in my opinion. And again, the Dev's don't force anyone to play their games. Hell, sometimes Dev's don't do enough to stop macro's and bot's because of the fact their still getting money out of it, whether it be your subscription, or you paying for an extra subscription, sometimes Dev's don't mind it, as long as their getting the green. And that right there is what's the Dev's fault, for not doing enough sometimes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you that; anymore, if I find myself even thinking about afk macroing I know it's time to go find another game 'cause this one must be boring.
The thing about Ultima was that it was a ton of fun to *play*, it was just boring to do the same thing over and over just to increase a skill. So macro to gain skill, play to have fun and do adventures was how I approached it.
--------------------------------- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American people."-Teddy Roosevelt
"A game should not require countless hours of mindless repitition to achieve something. A game that favors programmatic, automated behavior over human tactics and strategy is fundamentally flawed."
lol after reading that all i can think of is the artisan in SWG. i mean they give you in game code so you can mine straight for 24hrs... no wonder the game is going under.
IMO, the line seperating the opinions here is too fine. I can see how some would see it as cheating and others wouldn't. I am "on the fence".
I think using macros and/or bots for combat is perfectly fine. As long as you don't set up right on top of someone else. Some people just want to get to the top so they can concentrate on other things such as RvR in DAOC.
On the other hand, I believe, using macros/bots for crafting where the economy of the game is dependent on a fair market is a bad idea. Anyone who has played SWG has probably seen this first hand.
Of course, there will always be the "griefers" who will use these to...well...grief.. In such case, plan and execute your revenge.
Sometimes people use them for the sole purpose of keeping up with their friends who have more play time.
Originally posted by threetwosix I think using macros and/or bots for combat is perfectly fine. As long as you don't set up right on top of someone else. Some people just want to get to the top so they can concentrate on other things such as RvR in DAOC.
As i agree i see economy as a big deal, but combat is just a big of deal as any other aspect in MMORPG's, whether it be combat against AI controled enemies or Player vs. Player, having a unclear advantage over somebody because you have a bot with you, healing you as you go is cheating in my opinion and puts everyone else at a disadvantage.
Now if the bot is controled by a friend, or whatever then technically it shouldn't be called a bot, and it shouldn't be considered a bot. Just someone who's willing to help you, in return im sure that person will get something, which is how it basically works nowadays anyway. Theres not many people out there willing to help, without gaining some type of reward or satisfaction right? even if it's through a game. But that's a whole different story, i just think if you feel that the Economy aspect is that way, combat should be the same feeling as well.
----------------------------------------- War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left. -----------------------------------------
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Where did my post go. I posted a nice long post here last night. It's not here this morning. I thought when a post gets deleted it would say deleted and not just dissapear. . It's not the forum timeout because the post was on the forum and someone replied to it. The font was a bit screwed due to writing it in MSWord first.
Bloody crappy forums. If posts can dissapear with out a trace then I don't see the point of posting.
Magpie.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
If a player feels the need to use a 3rd party program for repetitive tasks then it is a fundamental flaw of the program: The whole idea of a successful game is to gain the users interest for the longest period of time (given that mmorpgs are constant rates this is what most devs are aiming for).
Some players might themselves be like robots and not mind the grind, however, there are players like myself that favor strategy over mindless point and click action.
If a 3rd party program were to increase the utility, etc. for a player (which would in turn be more profitable for the seller) why shouldn't it be permitted?
=> Negatively affects utility of other users
Until now most of the other users have been a small percentage of the population.
New mmorpgs will cater to bigger crowds, which will probably mean less grinding, possibly play constraints (look at blizz, always ahead of their time) and more character creation options.
Video games are goods just like anything else. Applying moral and ethic to implementation would be like replacing wine with beer in the evangelist church.
In the end the consumer decides what he and she wants, unless the competition is so scarce and underfunded.....oh damn look at NCsoft go with all of it's Mmorpgs....
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme." -ICP Toy Box Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by Magpie Robot I guess. Where did my post go. I posted a nice long post here last night. It's not here this morning. I thought when a post gets deleted it would say deleted and not just dissapear. . It's not the forum timeout because the post was on the forum and someone replied to it. The font was a bit screwed due to writing it in MSWord first. Bloody crappy forums. If posts can dissapear with out a trace then I don't see the point of posting. Magpie.
There was a database crash. About an hour and a half or so of data was lost from the site... Nobody deleted your message on purpose.
Actually in some games bots are like nuclear missles.
One side has them so you have to have them.
Take DAoC.Trust me initally most people frowned on bots .But when an infiltrator called "leetdude"(name used for dramitization hehe) goes around killing every single class and person and at times doing in a group of 3,you get fusrtated.So you get another account and make that buffbot.
Then the chain continues and soon you can't move anywhere in RvR without one.Thus was born the buffbot craze.
In EQ for instance I never felt the need to use a buffbot simply because I really did not need one.Yes you could level easier with one but could do just as well in a good group.In raids buffbots made little difference because you need an army of 30 -50 people to kill the fun stuff.
But in DAoC RvR is the most important part and require a buffbot to succeed.Unless you have a good guild group you would not even dream of leaving your fort.Try finding a group everyone would say no thanks I am buffing up with my bot and going solo.So yeah at this point no matter your feelings on buffbot you will end up getting one.
Originally posted by //\//\oo If a player feels the need to use a 3rd party program for repetitive tasks then it is a fundamental flaw of the program: The whole idea of a successful game is to gain the users interest for the longest period of time (given that mmorpgs are constant rates this is what most devs are aiming for).
I see your point. But like i've said before, If the game is so boring and so repetitive why play it? why buy it? The whole idea of playing a game, is to play a game you have fun with. If theres aspects of a game in which you can't tolerate, and have to resort to putting an unfair advantage on the rest, then you should just find a new game. It should never be the Dev's fault just because they created it? Their not holding a gun to your head making you pay the monthly cost.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*shrug* ... sorry if my post was kind of obtuse (as usual), but I meant to say that it would be relatively (it was implied in the previous post, but apparently not very well) flawed.
If you can give me an economically flawless game concept then feel free to give me an outline, but there usually is some person for which the game is "flawed" (for instance let's assume this person hates grind to an extreme so that even 20 mobs for a lvl seems impossible) .
If the game concept were optimal then it would appeal to the entire population of gamers that played it. Since the devs make the game... it is obviously their fault that it is flawed.
Applying morals to games (as I stated in my previous post) is pointless. In principle it is about finding the optimal concept with your resources. Unless you can prove that the game design is the optimal design then it is flawed (because of your economic constraints it might not be possible to attain the optimal design).
If you are talking about a relative optimal design (optimal design given some finite amount of resources N) then yes I agree, it might not be the devs fault, since he had an optimal design for the given resources.....
In any case, the entire population of gamers determines the design, not the devs etc.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme." -ICP Toy Box Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
While in-game macros are ok i do not agree with people using bots etc to do things while they are not themselves at the PC.
If you think the grind is boring or do not have the time to play then why buy the game in the first place. A bot takes the fun away from a game. its like buying a single player game, entering a cheat to get to the end and just doing the last mission before completing the game. You lose out on the whole experience.
But in the case of MMORPG's you are not just cheating yourself, you are annoying many genuine people who are paying good money for these games.
Games should have some kind of licenced spyware (note i said licenced so they cant just spy randomly) that can detect bots etc and those people should be banned and infected with a nasty virus.
providing it clearly states in the rules of the game that bots are forbidden however.
I think AC shown us how it affect game play and obviously only the minority will like it. or shall I say the people that don't know the meaning of gratification.
Comments
Obviously you don't read before you post.
I wanted a Definition of 'macro' and 'bot' because every person has their own idea of what exactly a macro and bot are. So for instace you aren't talking about macros OR bots, you're talking about using 3rd Party Programs which is something different.
That's why this thread is pointless everyone is talking about not liking 'macros' and 'bots' and what they're really talking about is 3rd Party Programs
---------------------------------
Killer 80%|Achiever 53%|Socializer 46%|Explorer 20%
and I'd like to add...
If dev's didn't make their games massive boring level grinds, less people would want to use a 3rd party program to run their toon while they were offline.
---------------------------------
Killer 80%|Achiever 53%|Socializer 46%|Explorer 20%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left.
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Well actually I play mmorpgs to have fun adventures with friends, so grinding out hour after hour after hour after hour at the same mob camp to grind out a level and watch my character grow is not what makes mmorgps fun for me.
In Ultima I used to afk macro to develop my toons while I was at work, then I'd come home and play all night long running around actually adventuring, instead of just clicking the same button over and over again so I could go up .1 skill
Mind you, I'm not saying afk macroing is a good thing but I definately think some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the devs when they make a game that encourages macroing by being too focused on repetative tasks rather then having fun.
---------------------------------
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand
by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally
treasonable to the American people."-Teddy Roosevelt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you that; anymore, if I find myself even thinking about afk macroing I know it's time to go find another game 'cause this one must be boring.
The thing about Ultima was that it was a ton of fun to *play*, it was just boring to do the same thing over and over just to increase a skill. So macro to gain skill, play to have fun and do adventures was how I approached it.
---------------------------------
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand
by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally
treasonable to the American people."-Teddy Roosevelt
"A game should not require countless hours of mindless repitition to achieve something. A game that favors programmatic, automated behavior over human tactics and strategy is fundamentally flawed."
lol after reading that all i can think of is the artisan in SWG. i mean they give you in game code so you can mine straight for 24hrs... no wonder the game is going under.
IMO, the line seperating the opinions here is too fine. I can see how some would see it as cheating and others wouldn't. I am "on the fence".
I think using macros and/or bots for combat is perfectly fine. As long as you don't set up right on top of someone else. Some people just want to get to the top so they can concentrate on other things such as RvR in DAOC.
On the other hand, I believe, using macros/bots for crafting where the economy of the game is dependent on a fair market is a bad idea. Anyone who has played SWG has probably seen this first hand.
Of course, there will always be the "griefers" who will use these to...well...grief..
In such case, plan and execute your revenge.
Sometimes people use them for the sole purpose of keeping up with their friends who have more play time.
326
three2six
http://www.soundcloud.com/three2six
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War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left.
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War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left.
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*Stabs a bot useing cheater in the eye ball*
set your macro noooooow Chump!
Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
sounds about right... with my passion for killing and my hate for people
Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
sounds about right... with my passion for killing and my hate for people
Robot I guess.
Where did my post go. I posted a nice long post here last night. It's not here this morning. I thought when a post gets deleted it would say deleted and not just dissapear.
. It's not the forum timeout because the post was on the forum and someone replied to it. The font was a bit screwed due to writing it in MSWord first.
Bloody crappy forums. If posts can dissapear with out a trace then I don't see the point of posting.
Magpie.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Indeed... Why should automation be enforced?
If a player feels the need to use a 3rd party program for repetitive tasks then it is a fundamental flaw of the program: The whole idea of a successful game is to gain the users interest for the longest period of time (given that mmorpgs are constant rates this is what most devs are aiming for).
Some players might themselves be like robots and not mind the grind, however, there are players like myself that favor strategy over mindless point and click action.
If a 3rd party program were to increase the utility, etc. for a player (which would in turn be more profitable for the seller) why shouldn't it be permitted?
=> Negatively affects utility of other users
Until now most of the other users have been a small percentage of the population.
New mmorpgs will cater to bigger crowds, which will probably mean less grinding, possibly play constraints (look at blizz, always ahead of their time) and more character creation options.
Video games are goods just like anything else. Applying moral and ethic to implementation would be like replacing wine with beer in the evangelist church.
In the end the consumer decides what he and she wants, unless the competition is so scarce and underfunded.....oh damn look at NCsoft go with all of it's Mmorpgs....
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme."
-ICP
Toy Box
Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
There was a database crash. About an hour and a half or so of data was lost from the site... Nobody deleted your message on purpose.
Actually in some games bots are like nuclear missles.
One side has them so you have to have them.
Take DAoC.Trust me initally most people frowned on bots .But when an infiltrator called "leetdude"(name used for dramitization hehe) goes around killing every single class and person and at times doing in a group of 3,you get fusrtated.So you get another account and make that buffbot.
Then the chain continues and soon you can't move anywhere in RvR without one.Thus was born the buffbot craze.
In EQ for instance I never felt the need to use a buffbot simply because I really did not need one.Yes you could level easier with one but could do just as well in a good group.In raids buffbots made little difference because you need an army of 30 -50 people to kill the fun stuff.
But in DAoC RvR is the most important part and require a buffbot to succeed.Unless you have a good guild group you would not even dream of leaving your fort.Try finding a group everyone would say no thanks I am buffing up with my bot and going solo.So yeah at this point no matter your feelings on buffbot you will end up getting one.
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War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left.
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War Doesn't Determine Who's Right, War Determines Who's Left.
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*shrug* ... sorry if my post was kind of obtuse (as usual), but I meant to say that it would be relatively (it was implied in the previous post, but apparently not very well) flawed.
If you can give me an economically flawless game concept then feel free to give me an outline, but there usually is some person for which the game is "flawed" (for instance let's assume this person hates grind to an extreme so that even 20 mobs for a lvl seems impossible) .
If the game concept were optimal then it would appeal to the entire population of gamers that played it. Since the devs make the game... it is obviously their fault that it is flawed.
Applying morals to games (as I stated in my previous post) is pointless. In principle it is about finding the optimal concept with your resources. Unless you can prove that the game design is the optimal design then it is flawed (because of your economic constraints it might not be possible to attain the optimal design).
If you are talking about a relative optimal design (optimal design given some finite amount of resources N) then yes I agree, it might not be the devs fault, since he had an optimal design for the given resources.....
In any case, the entire population of gamers determines the design, not the devs etc.
"That's not a toy. Hey wait a minute. Don't f* around homey you can lose an eye with it. That's mah double-blade-razorwhip-chop-jimmy and it's mine mf*er so gimme gimme."
-ICP
Toy Box
Riddle Box
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
While in-game macros are ok i do not agree with people using bots etc to do things while they are not themselves at the PC.
If you think the grind is boring or do not have the time to play then why buy the game in the first place. A bot takes the fun away from a game. its like buying a single player game, entering a cheat to get to the end and just doing the last mission before completing the game. You lose out on the whole experience.
But in the case of MMORPG's you are not just cheating yourself, you are annoying many genuine people who are paying good money for these games.
Games should have some kind of licenced spyware (note i said licenced so they cant just spy randomly) that can detect bots etc and those people should be banned and infected with a nasty virus.
providing it clearly states in the rules of the game that bots are forbidden however.
Muahahahahahahaha
3 stars sucks
i want my 5 stars back!
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I think think bots/combat macros ruin games, takes away the fun of challenge and competition out of the game.
That which does not kill you only makes you stronger.